How much of it was Aeolia's plan?

[M.U.N.]

I was thinking, and was it possible that Ribbons rebellion/god complex was all a large part of Aeolia's plan.
They said they got the Twin drive data at the same time as Trans-am. If Ribbons hadn't shot Aeolia CB would never have known about the Trans am and Twin Drive, Setsuna wouldn't have become an innovator and no Trans am burst, which seems like key points in him plan to unite humanity.

[domino]

That's an interesting concept but then if he had it all planned out that far then why would he want himself killed for his plan to come to fruition and the first true Innovator be born?

I don't think Aeolia planned for Ribbons and Alejandro to come and muck things up. I think his plan was to emerge from cryostasis and release the Twin Drive system himself. However, since his life functions stopped prematurely, the system failsafe was to activate Trans-AM in the Gundams and give them the plans for the Twin Drive system so that they will hopefully carry on his dream.
I kinda believe that the original intention of having the CB team was to give the world a reason to unite. CB was so threatening that a union would be formed between the warring nations in order to defeat the common foe. This worked perfectly but then the Thrones messed it up and Alejandro took advantage by giving the Federation the GN-T drives.

Perhaps those lights we see on Jupiter are other GN units which Aeolia left in development and were to be activated when he arose from cryostasis. One or more of them may have the Twin Drive. These units may be a crucial factor and be intended to work along with the Celestial Being space ship in the "coming dialouge".....whatever that is...alien or not.


Just my assumptions. Hopefully we'll know next year when the movie is released!

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

Aeolia's plan got derailed pretty early in the series, but since no one actually knew what it was, no one knew how badly it was off track.

Alejandro Corner (or rather, his family) had apparently been working against the plan from the inside for generations. His family seem to have been the ones to develop the GN Tau drive, so you could say that the first obvious deviation from Aeolia's plan was the introduction of the Gundam Thrones when they saved the 'Tolmy's Gundams. (Whether or not the original four Gundams being destroyed/captured at that point was part of Aeolia's plan or a miscalculation by Veda is up for debate.) Alejandro going on to gain access to Veda and kill the stasis'd Aeolia himself was obviously not part of Aeolia's plan; Veda's release of the Trans Am system and the Twin Drive data was accompanied, after all, by a message of Aeolia saying, in a nutshell, "things didn't go according to plan and we can no longer influence the situation; do what you think is best, because you're on your own now."

What Aeolia's plan was in the first place is hard to figure out, given that it seemed to have multiple layers (plans within plans within plans) and Veda appeared to adjust it on the fly. Nor is it clear exactly how much autonomy Veda had -- was it the real mastermind behind the whole thing, or did it simply adjust Aeolia's plan to circumstances? We don't really know. It seems likely that the information on Trans Am and the Twin Drive would have been released eventually... except that without Alejandro's intervention, the Gundams would have been destroyed/captured during the combined-military desert battle. Was that part of Aeolia's plan, to force the world to combine forces and then let them achieve their goal? Or was it a miscalculation by Veda, and Alejandro's intervention actually salvaged Aeolia's plan? If the Gundams were meant to be destroyed, then where did Trans Am/Twin Drive come in? Maybe Veda would have unlocked Trans Am itself when it became clear that the Gundams were going to be captured? There's no way for us to know. There's simply not enough information given in the series to be sure.

[T.V.]

It seems likely that the information on Trans Am and the Twin Drive would have been released eventually... except that without Alejandro's intervention, the Gundams would have been destroyed/captured during the combined-military desert battle. Was that part of Aeolia's plan, to force the world to combine forces and then let them achieve their goal? Or was it a miscalculation by Veda, and Alejandro's intervention actually salvaged Aeolia's plan?

I believe the series hints at VEDA's decission making process already being manipulated/undermined at that point by Alejandro and Ribbons, using their Observer and VEDA Terminal positions respectively to be one step ahead.
Their knowledge of VEDA's objectives allow them to engineer the trap behind the curtains, which the HRL, Union and AEU are seemingly taking part in out of their own accord. I can only guess Alejandro's United Nations affiliation helped in getting the involved parties moving in the right direction.
The Thrones being at the right place at the right time wasn't a lucky break, just waiting for CB to screw up, but rather was 'just as planned' I reckon. You don't plan a veiled coup using fake Gundams, only to have their deployement be up to fate.

Later in the series, the leaks concerning the timely unveiling of the GN-Xes, etc., are done less conspiciously in terms of presentation to the viewer, but it's very similar to getting the HRL, Union and AEU to cooperate in the Tamaklan Desert exercise in the first place IMO.

[domino]

Hmm....saying it like that T.V., I have to wonder what the point of the Thrones were at all in Alejandro's plan.

Perhaps they were simply to wreak massive destruction to the point that the three powers no longer had faith in their own technology and would easily accept the GN-T drives as weapons however how would that benefit Alejandro and the Corner family? Why would they want the whole Earth to have their "new" super-powerful mass produced power source?

I would understand if Alejandro plotted the Thrones against the Gundams but he didn't. After all the effort he put into them, he sent the GN-Xs after them and when they kept escaping, sent Ali. It's like the Thrones were simply toys to irritate the CB team and make things more difficult for them. They could've been better used against CB and join the GN-X force if Alejandro had them trained up for that from birth. Ali was good but Michael and Johann weren't exactly pathetic enough to get rid of imo.

[vertu]

Nor is it clear exactly how much autonomy Veda had

It's been stated a few times that Veda doesn't have a will of its own. It just chooses the best options it has in order to achieve the final result. This is shown in the early episodes when Sumeragi consults it to see if her plans will succeed and later when she says she wishes they didn't have to rely on Veda so much.

Perhaps they were simply to wreak massive destruction to the point that the three powers no longer had faith in their own technology and would easily accept the GN-T drives as weapons

I'm pretty sure that's it. Giving the three factions GN-Xs also meant unifying the army, having them work together. The Trinities were simply bait, disposable, and having them cause all that destruction meant finally uniting the world against CB. Notice how the superpowers needed the Taklamakan exercise as an excuse to capture the Gundams, because the Ptolemy crew wasn't as radical as the Thrones team. And let's not forget the Gundams were already hated by everybody; having three of them as allies would have damaged the UN army's image. That's why the GN-Xs have their faces covered. Also, Ali joining with the Zwei was already regarded as suspicious and used as a last moment help.

As for Alejandro benefiting from all this...He was the one who gave the power blocks a weapon on par with the Gundams. Not to mention that he entered combat and, had he not died, would have been regarded as a hero. He also had Ribbons controlling Veda and sooner or later would have become president of the EF.

[T.V.]

Edit: Pretty much what Vertu said.

The Thrones were primarely a ploy to gain more direct control over CB's actions, and subsequently but secondarely to discredit them in public.
By having the Thrones accepted as part of CB's Gundam roster, as was done during the Observer meeting, Alejandro gained a more direct method to influence CB from within, and thus getting closer to capturing VEDA, whilst also setting up his position as future UN president (Ribbons notwithstanding).
After the Thrones had served their role, they were simply discarded.

[domino]

I don't think having the Thrones helped Alejandro access Veda...unless that is what Nena was doing when she was in the Ptolemy's VEDA terminal. I figure Ribbons always had access but it's entirely possible that was the reason Nena was given quantum brainwaves and a Gundam specialized for infiltration and escape....quite characteristic for a spy.

I have to agree with vertu as well though. The three forces weren't fully united during the desert battle...they simply cooperated against a common enemy. The benefits of a union hadn't been fully realised then. Alejandro also had the objective of ruling the world so it made sense to unite the world eventhough it also involved sharing the GN-T technology.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

It's been stated a few times that Veda doesn't have a will of its own. It just chooses the best options it has in order to achieve the final result.

Well, certainly. I wasn't implying that Veda was somehow sentient, but rather wondering how much autonomy it had. Is it simply choosing which of several pre-programmed plans to put into place, or is it actually formulating its own plans to achieve the goals it's been given? Seeing that it's got the memory and processing capacity to store an entire human (well, Innovade) mind, it doesn't seem too outrageous to believe that it may have just been told "achieve this goal with these resources" and let loose to make its own plans... though the programming of such a thing would be rather difficult to handle.

[Wellman]

I agree with the idea that pretty much the Thrones were sent out to accelerate the unification of the world super powers by introducing a more frightening unstoppable enemy then the current CB Gundams were.

As for Aeolia's plan, no clue, it could be anything but I gathered from everyone's actions around anytime the Meisters were near capture or death, that death and suit destruction were acceptable as long as the GN drives weren't captured by one or more super power. As season two and the side story comics showed, there were a lot of layers of people involved in Celestial Being, so while losing a GN drive would be a huge loss, the plan would continue and there was still the GN drive of the 0 Gundam available should they need it.

[manmiles]

Did anyone else see elements of Isaac Asimov's Foundation series in Gundam 00? Especially when it came to Aeolia and his great plan.

[Black Knight]

Comparisons of Monocle Man to Hari Seldon started immediately after the airing of S1 Episode 01. The end of S1 pretty much debunked them, however, with the radio message sent with the info on Trans-Am (and retconned to include info on the Twin Drive) essentially saying "the plan failed, here's more super-powers, act as you see fit."

Since some background information, particularly dealing with Ribbons's past, say that the Meisters were supposed to be killed off, I find this last-ditch plan of Monocle Man to be rather amusing. If the "plan" had already gotten to the point where the Meisters were killed, and then someone killed frozen Monocle Man, there wouldn't have been anyone to take advantage of Trans-Am (or Twin Drive).

Hari Seldon was a lot more convincing than any of his imitators.

[Wellman]

Comparisons of Monocle Man to Hari Seldon started immediately after the airing of S1 Episode 01. The end of S1 pretty much debunked them, however, with the radio message sent with the info on Trans-Am (and retconned to include info on the Twin Drive) essentially saying "the plan failed, here's more super-powers, act as you see fit."

Since some background information, particularly dealing with Ribbons's past, say that the Meisters were supposed to be killed off, I find this last-ditch plan of Monocle Man to be rather amusing. If the "plan" had already gotten to the point where the Meisters were killed, and then someone killed frozen Monocle Man, there wouldn't have been anyone to take advantage of Trans-Am (or Twin Drive).

Hari Seldon was a lot more convincing than any of his imitators.

Don't know that for sure. There was still the GN Solar furnace for the 0 Gundam and we know that Celestial Being is much larger then was shown on the show. It could be that had the Meisters and co been eliminated before his death, his automated program would have sent the information off to another faction of Celestial Being to either carry out his plans or as he said do as they see fit, since he wouldn't be around to care anyway.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

It does seem likely that Veda routed the message to the Meisters precisely because it was aware of the fact that they were still alive. Had the situation been different, the message may have gone to someone else, or Veda's response may have been entirely different. (I draw amusement from the idea that, had Veda been cut off from any human allies and effectively "on its own" when Aeolia was killed, it would have played a message of Aeolia laughing maniacally before self-destructing in order to kill whoever was in the facility.)

[SonicSP]

It does seem likely that Veda routed the message to the Meisters precisely because it was aware of the fact that they were still alive. Had the situation been different, the message may have gone to someone else, or Veda's response may have been entirely different. (I draw amusement from the idea that, had Veda been cut off from any human allies and effectively "on its own" when Aeolia was killed, it would have played a message of Aeolia laughing maniacally before self-destructing in order to kill whoever was in the facility.)

But did Veda really routed the message?The Drives were already disconnected from the Veda at that point in time.Some speculate it to be a different network to Aeolia's coffin.

Of course,I can imagine Veda emitting a global signal that would have released the data already in the blackbox when the signal is relased,it could be a universal open signal that would not require a response or a direct link,but when intercepted by the GN-Drives,would release all the hidden data inside,which was pre-programmed to be released if the exact signal was ever intercepted.Aeolia's message,Twin Drive System plus the function of the Trans-Am System would have been inside the Drive's blackbox.

Of course,you may have been correct.Nobody actually controls Veda in its entirety.CB had that sub functioning terminal that was using data streams that even Ribbons could not detect.

You know,I wonder if that line back in the World Report that says something like "Ribbons thought he was playing but was ultimately played instead".I wonder if it was referring to Regine or Veda?

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

But did Veda really routed the message?

I don't know what else it would have been. We see both Setsuna in the Exia and the other CB members on the 'Tolmy watching the message (but notably not Ali in his new Throne), which suggests that Veda was sending out the data to the relevant people -- the ones with the GN Drives.

IIRC, the Gundam's weren't completely cut off from Veda, either -- they just put a backup system in place so that if Veda tried to shut them down, they could continue fighting anyway.

[vertu]

You know,I wonder if that line back in the World Report that says something like "Ribbons thought he was playing but was ultimately played instead".I wonder if it was referring to Regine or Veda?

I think it was both. From Mission Complete:

Even if Ribbons said that he has seized Veda, there are still a great amount of things that can't be done if Veda doesn't allow it. Because of this, Innovaoids and Veda differ in capacity by a lot. As a matter of fact, when someone tries to contradict the plan, they should lose everything momentarily.

And from S2 Official File 6:

Regene is a kid. But it doesn't mean that he aimed for the top from the start. He was unconsciously protecting the Innovade pre-input called the "sneaky Aeolia's plan associate". Because of this, he cooperated with Tieria.

So..yeah.

[SonicSP]

Thats enlightening,did not know that bits of translation from Mission Complete were already here.

However,I'm a little confused about the lines:

"when someone tries to contradict the plan,they should lose everything momentorily""

"Innovade input called the sneaky Aeolia's plan associate.Because of this he corparated with Tiera "

I can sort of understand a little bit but not necessarily the entire meaning,they're quite complicated sentences.Can somebody explain them to me?

[Dean_the_Young]

You know,I wonder if that line back in the World Report that says something like "Ribbons thought he was playing but was ultimately played instead".I wonder if it was referring to Regine or Veda?

I think it was both. From Mission Complete:

Even if Ribbons said that he has seized Veda, there are still a great amount of things that can't be done if Veda doesn't allow it. Because of this, Innovaoids and Veda differ in capacity by a lot. As a matter of fact, when someone tries to contradict the plan, they should lose everything momentarily.

And from S2 Official File 6:

Regene is a kid. But it doesn't mean that he aimed for the top from the start. He was unconsciously protecting the Innovade pre-input called the "sneaky Aeolia's plan associate". Because of this, he cooperated with Tieria.

Neither of those really show that Ribbons was the one being played, though. For one thing, Ribbons didn't contradict the Plan: he changed it to his own advantage, but he never went directly against it. It's better to say he introduced outside variables that led VEDA to accept his changes to the original intent (variables like the Trinities, Ali, etc.). But in the end, he was always fulfilling (his self-serving variation of) the Plan: he unified the world to end with CB's destruction, he kept the world unified, he established a world peace with conflicts confined to a few backwaters that were being snuffed out, he was even working towards creating Innovators through Louise. He twisted the plan, but didn't stop it.

All the part about Regene says is that he unconciously tries to steer the plan back to its more original intent. But Regene never outschemed Ribbons.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

Except that the plan wasn't simply to unite the world, it was to united the world in preparation for contact with extraterrestrial intelligence. Having a "united" world in the form of a tiny minority brutally and mercilessly subjugating the rest of humanity isn't exactly putting the best face on for our celestial neighbors.