Parallels between U.C. and A.D.
Parallels between U.C. and A.D.
Well I decided to re-watch 00 and I noticed a lot of similarities between the UC era of gundam an the AD era. Really the first thing that came to mind besides the obvious homage of the RX-78 is that almost all of the second season reminded me of Zeta Gundam. Lets see first there is the fact that A-Laws seems to be almost the same as the titans. I think an obvious character similarities between Jarid/Graham and Emma/Soma. Those were just the ones that jumped out at me. I'd like to hear anyone else thoughts about this or if they have noticed any other parallels between the two.
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- Red Comet90
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Re: Parallels between U.C. and A.D.
Hopefully this thread won't become some ridiculous discussion as to how 00 sucks because its just like Zeta (which I don't agree with but w/e) but you have a point there are some similiarities with 00 and UC Gundam.
The A-Laws themselves might be even more ruthless than the Titans in 00 and are extremely similar. Instead of doing a colony gassing they launch automatons and kill everyone not caring what happens to the innocents. They also have a similar way of existing within the Federation in 00 as did the Titans. Heck even Momento Mori can kind of be looked at as the Gryps Colony Laser.
I could see how Jared would kind of be like Graham, but Jared was such a loser villain from beginning to end that I can't really say that Graham was like him. Graham was a very distinct character and very un Jared like but his role is rather similar since he keeps chasing Setsuna. I just wanted to add this I have no hate for Jared. I just call him a loser villain since that is his role in the show.
The most obvious similarity between UC and AD is the whole newtype understanding theme with the GN particles. Of course they warped the Newtype idea by making them innovators instead but it made for a really interesting re telling of something we've already seen before.
The A-Laws themselves might be even more ruthless than the Titans in 00 and are extremely similar. Instead of doing a colony gassing they launch automatons and kill everyone not caring what happens to the innocents. They also have a similar way of existing within the Federation in 00 as did the Titans. Heck even Momento Mori can kind of be looked at as the Gryps Colony Laser.
I could see how Jared would kind of be like Graham, but Jared was such a loser villain from beginning to end that I can't really say that Graham was like him. Graham was a very distinct character and very un Jared like but his role is rather similar since he keeps chasing Setsuna. I just wanted to add this I have no hate for Jared. I just call him a loser villain since that is his role in the show.
The most obvious similarity between UC and AD is the whole newtype understanding theme with the GN particles. Of course they warped the Newtype idea by making them innovators instead but it made for a really interesting re telling of something we've already seen before.
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Re: Parallels between U.C. and A.D.
This topic has been discussed at length in the various 00 topics when it aired (in Japan), but to chime in nonetheless:
The parts that struck me the most, in relation to UC (0079 especially), aren't so much the obvious and sometimes subtle references/homages/parallels, but rather the deconstruction of both the Char and Amuro archetypes.
The character of Char was split between Ali, who inherited the red custom MSes, and Graham, who obviously became the (antithesis of the) mysterious masked ace.
The both of them were more skillful than the main protagonist, as was Char compared to Amuro early on, but the both offer a different take on the enemy ace rival, deliberately void of that what made Char either heroic or sympathetic.
Ali being the unapologetic psychopath whilst Graham tragically becoming a shadow of his former self, removed the romantic elements of the Char archetype which I found refreshing and interesting at the same time.
Similarly, and IMHO more entertaining, was how Setsuna and Saji both carried elements of Amuro, yet being nothing like him at the same time.
Saji especially, being a clear homage ánd subversion of Amuro Ray was cleverly done IMO. His path in season 2, being the designated accidental civilian pilot, sharing Amuro's atire, skipping out in the dessert (but no 0 Raiser buried in the sand! ), his run in with Ramb... Sergei, etc., all mirrored Amuro's story throught first Gundam, yet he didn't become the super-pilot who could best professionals.
He did what Amuro only could hope to do if he wasn't an emerging newtype with awesome piloting talent.
Setsuna on the other hand, being conditioned to war since his earliest memories, was the überprofessional being brought up for and through war almost from the cradle.
So much so that he couldn't function like a normal person, having already grown accustomed to the psychic trauma Amuro underwent during the OYW. However, this jadedness turned out to be a handicap even though it initially was his strong suit. And this reversal of Amuro's path of mental development was interesting to see come about, mostly during the second season.
The parts that struck me the most, in relation to UC (0079 especially), aren't so much the obvious and sometimes subtle references/homages/parallels, but rather the deconstruction of both the Char and Amuro archetypes.
The character of Char was split between Ali, who inherited the red custom MSes, and Graham, who obviously became the (antithesis of the) mysterious masked ace.
The both of them were more skillful than the main protagonist, as was Char compared to Amuro early on, but the both offer a different take on the enemy ace rival, deliberately void of that what made Char either heroic or sympathetic.
Ali being the unapologetic psychopath whilst Graham tragically becoming a shadow of his former self, removed the romantic elements of the Char archetype which I found refreshing and interesting at the same time.
Similarly, and IMHO more entertaining, was how Setsuna and Saji both carried elements of Amuro, yet being nothing like him at the same time.
Saji especially, being a clear homage ánd subversion of Amuro Ray was cleverly done IMO. His path in season 2, being the designated accidental civilian pilot, sharing Amuro's atire, skipping out in the dessert (but no 0 Raiser buried in the sand! ), his run in with Ramb... Sergei, etc., all mirrored Amuro's story throught first Gundam, yet he didn't become the super-pilot who could best professionals.
He did what Amuro only could hope to do if he wasn't an emerging newtype with awesome piloting talent.
Setsuna on the other hand, being conditioned to war since his earliest memories, was the überprofessional being brought up for and through war almost from the cradle.
So much so that he couldn't function like a normal person, having already grown accustomed to the psychic trauma Amuro underwent during the OYW. However, this jadedness turned out to be a handicap even though it initially was his strong suit. And this reversal of Amuro's path of mental development was interesting to see come about, mostly during the second season.
Re: Parallels between U.C. and A.D.
...Wow. You know, I never really noticed that.
Reading through the thread, I totally agree with one thing Red said, and that's that despite sharing a number of similarities with Zeta Gundam(As well as, though to a much lesser degree, Gundam Wing), Gundam 00 is NOT "just like" either one.
Gundam 00 Season 1 takes a similar basic premise as Wing's, but takes it in a very different direction, as it does away completely with the naive idea of absolute pacifism obtained through the forced elimination of weapons that characterizes the latter half or so of Wing. 00 is also much more politically aware than Wing in the sense that it delves into the long-term political repercussion of the actions of the Gundams, and in fact turns this into a major plot point. Wing did briefly dwell on something similar, but never did much with it.
00 is also different in that it does away with the concept of the "Earth vs. the Colonies" ethnic war. What I also find interesting is that you have Saji, who is there to provide a first-hand view of how an average civilian is affected by all these going-ons, something Wing lacked, but which was explored, up to a point, in 0080.
In a sense, Gundam 00 reimagines Wing in a way that is similar to what Seed attempted with Mobile Suit Gundam, but far more successfully. And at the same time, it breaks in significant ways from the established traditions, and becomes something else entirely.
Though the idea of what in UC Gundam was called "Newtypes" isn't explored in S1, it does deal with the artificial enhancement of humans for combat purposes - as Cyber Newtypes in UC, or more recently the CE's Biological CPUs/Extendeds.
Season 2 starts with a similar basic premise as Zeta, with the antagonistic independent military force "A-LAWS" taking the place of the very similar Titans. Here it is Saji who takes the place of Kamille as the civilian kid who's affected by the sinister going-ons, with Setsuna filling in for Quattro. Since I mention it, also visited is the falling-for-an-enemy-pilot trope(Kamille and Four, Shiro and Aina, Amuro and Lalah, etc...) With Allelujah and Soma/Marie, though this time without the tragedy...and it makes a perverse kind of sense in the way it ties into the already aforementioned "Enhanced-Human-Soldier" trope.
And, as has been mentioned, It subverts the growth cycle of Amuro and Char, dividing aspects of each between Setsuna and Saji, and Graham and Ali, as well as delving into the concept of "Newtypes", or something similar. So kudos to TV for pointing that out.
But again, while the base is similar, 00 does its own thing, and does it well.
Well, enough ranting from me.
Yeah, there's a lot of similarities. But there's also a lot of differences.
Reading through the thread, I totally agree with one thing Red said, and that's that despite sharing a number of similarities with Zeta Gundam(As well as, though to a much lesser degree, Gundam Wing), Gundam 00 is NOT "just like" either one.
Gundam 00 Season 1 takes a similar basic premise as Wing's, but takes it in a very different direction, as it does away completely with the naive idea of absolute pacifism obtained through the forced elimination of weapons that characterizes the latter half or so of Wing. 00 is also much more politically aware than Wing in the sense that it delves into the long-term political repercussion of the actions of the Gundams, and in fact turns this into a major plot point. Wing did briefly dwell on something similar, but never did much with it.
00 is also different in that it does away with the concept of the "Earth vs. the Colonies" ethnic war. What I also find interesting is that you have Saji, who is there to provide a first-hand view of how an average civilian is affected by all these going-ons, something Wing lacked, but which was explored, up to a point, in 0080.
In a sense, Gundam 00 reimagines Wing in a way that is similar to what Seed attempted with Mobile Suit Gundam, but far more successfully. And at the same time, it breaks in significant ways from the established traditions, and becomes something else entirely.
Though the idea of what in UC Gundam was called "Newtypes" isn't explored in S1, it does deal with the artificial enhancement of humans for combat purposes - as Cyber Newtypes in UC, or more recently the CE's Biological CPUs/Extendeds.
Season 2 starts with a similar basic premise as Zeta, with the antagonistic independent military force "A-LAWS" taking the place of the very similar Titans. Here it is Saji who takes the place of Kamille as the civilian kid who's affected by the sinister going-ons, with Setsuna filling in for Quattro. Since I mention it, also visited is the falling-for-an-enemy-pilot trope(Kamille and Four, Shiro and Aina, Amuro and Lalah, etc...) With Allelujah and Soma/Marie, though this time without the tragedy...and it makes a perverse kind of sense in the way it ties into the already aforementioned "Enhanced-Human-Soldier" trope.
And, as has been mentioned, It subverts the growth cycle of Amuro and Char, dividing aspects of each between Setsuna and Saji, and Graham and Ali, as well as delving into the concept of "Newtypes", or something similar. So kudos to TV for pointing that out.
But again, while the base is similar, 00 does its own thing, and does it well.
Well, enough ranting from me.
Yeah, there's a lot of similarities. But there's also a lot of differences.
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Re: Parallels between U.C. and A.D.
I wouldn't call Graham the anti-thesis of Char, since they have more in common than not. Both of them have an obsession with their Gundam-piloting rivals, and both of them hold similar "honorable" intentions. For example, similar to how Graham refused to finish Setsuna after the 00 failed to operate, Char refused to use funnels against Amuro when the latter was in the Re-GZ and even purposely leaked the Psycoframe technology to have an even duel. It's true Char did do some sneaky and rotten things every now and then, especially during his quest for revenge, but probably no more rotten than Graham sitting back watching his fellow pilots get slaughtered.T.V. wrote:and Graham, who obviously became the (antithesis of the) mysterious masked ace.
Fundamentally, their differences lie in their backgrounds and military roles. Graham started out as a military flyboy who worked up to becoming an elite pilot with special priviledges, while Char was of 'noble' decent who eventually became both a renowned ace and influential leader. Although Char was much more ambitious than Graham and had a great deal of political influence the latter lacked, CCA confirmed that ending his feud with Amuro was ultimately his main intent. In that regard, the two aren't as different as people tend to believe.
I agree whole-heartedly with Saji being a "lesser" Amuro, but I wouldn't say Setsuna shares anymore resemblance (or the opposite) than main pilots in past shows. It's true he did have somewhat of a reverse-development cycle than most pilots, having gone from a state of "rawr kill u" to maturing and realizing that fighting isn't everything. Many pilots in past Gundam shows have often started out like Saji and gradually accepted their fate as tools of war, but ultimately their perceptions don't change. Throughout CCA for example, Amuro's motivation for stopping Char was to end the conflict, which ultimately amounted to his own sacrifice. Setsuna's reasons for fighting the Innovators wasn't that different.Similarly, and IMHO more entertaining, was how Setsuna and Saji both carried elements of Amuro, yet being nothing like him at the same time.
Well, I wouldn't go that far with it, since it wasn't Amuro's uncanny piloting and Newtype abilities that made him who he was. It was the Bright-slaps that ultimately molded him into the man he became.He did what Amuro only could hope to do if he wasn't an emerging newtype with awesome piloting talent.
Anyway, I'm too lazy to make a huge list (which could be possible) but here are a couple of other glaring similarities:
GN Particles and Minovsky Particles:
Both are capable of doing things modern physics can't describe, and both have similar roles as ECMs, power sources, weapons, defenses, and aid in mobility of some sort. GN particles do tend to do a bit more however, with features like Trans-Am and channeling 'Nudetype' moments. With regards to that, I think GN physics could be most adequately comparable to a combination of Minovsky physics and Psycommu technology. Trans-Am, beyond being a tribute to the whole "3 times as fast" catchphrase, is also very similar to phenomenae caused by Psycommus, Bionsensors, and Psycoframes.
Allelujah and Kamille:
Aside from both piloting transformable mobile suits, both are also relatively weaker pilots than their compatriots, but have innate abilities that allow them to surpass the best pilots in their respective timelines. They also have girlfriends in lesser transformable mobile suits and share equally tragic pasts, although Allelujah didn't have to pay as high of a price for his happy ending.
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Re: Parallels between U.C. and A.D.
I don't know, I've always seen 00 to Wing as Seed was to the original Mobile Suit Gundam. I mean the Gundam pilots in their armed interventions ended up bringing about the rise of Oz, just as Celestial Being's interventions brought about A-Laws.
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Re: Parallels between U.C. and A.D.
The Gundam pilots in Wing weren't staging "armed interventions" or anything of the sort. They were waging a war against the Earth Sphere Alliance, which created a pretext for the OZ takeover--a plan that had already been in the works long before the Gundam pilots showed up. In 00, Celestial Being wound up creating its later enemy, A-LAWS, by unifying elements of the world that had not previously shown any inclination towards uniting into an oppressive world government.
Re: Parallels between U.C. and A.D.
Lets not forget what Operation Meteor was really about: ruling the world. It just so happens that the scientists sent out the Gundams sooner than they were supposed to, putting a hamper to the actual plan. Contrast to what Aeolia was trying to do in comparison with CB, in which he wanted to unite the world for more than simply peace, and practically had several contingencies and fail-safes along the way.
There will always be similarities or the like in any series you watch, Gundam, anime, or otherwise. Given especially what the original series set out to do and the precedence it started, no big surprise that 00 also shares many things to its UC counterparts; this is absolutely nothing new at all. However, for all the similarities, the AD universe is still unique within the Gundam franchise, introducing enough new elements and twists to make it stand out on its own.
There will always be similarities or the like in any series you watch, Gundam, anime, or otherwise. Given especially what the original series set out to do and the precedence it started, no big surprise that 00 also shares many things to its UC counterparts; this is absolutely nothing new at all. However, for all the similarities, the AD universe is still unique within the Gundam franchise, introducing enough new elements and twists to make it stand out on its own.
Re: Parallels between U.C. and A.D.
In my opinion I will say that 00 first season had some interesting parallels with Wing. First with the four Gundams against the world. CB's belief that armed intervention will change the world is akin to the Gundam pilots believing that removing OZ will end the war between Earth and space (or give them a fighting chance). Marina belief that war only perpetuates conflicts reminds you of Relena Extreme pacifist tendencies. Alenjandro and Ribbons ambitions and pretexts to change the world and rule it is similar to the Romeffeller ambitions without the Messianic complex of course.
Season 2 was more Zeta or should I say UC like with the A-Laws parrallel to the Titans. A lot of the scenes and outcomes reminded us of the UC classics such as Graham going like Char with his mask. The Innovators being like between artificial and natural newtypes. What I found even more interesting is that the series inspires itself from a lot of plot line and devices of the previous series and twisted it to make something truly original, of course it is not perfect.
Season 2 was more Zeta or should I say UC like with the A-Laws parrallel to the Titans. A lot of the scenes and outcomes reminded us of the UC classics such as Graham going like Char with his mask. The Innovators being like between artificial and natural newtypes. What I found even more interesting is that the series inspires itself from a lot of plot line and devices of the previous series and twisted it to make something truly original, of course it is not perfect.
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Re: Parallels between U.C. and A.D.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8u7px_GzWQAegis wrote:Lets not forget what Operation Meteor was really about: ruling the world.
And then there's the thought patterns of Ribbons (or is it Livons?) and Giren about their kind being superior to the rest of humanity and thus are destined to rule over the entire colonized space, believing that their dominion would be better than the old guard.
Or something to that effect. Speaking of which, wouldn't there be parallels between the Gundam 00 and Turn A in that each have a specialized system built within them that isn't revealed until at least the final few episodes of a series that is capable of changing the world?
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Re: Parallels between U.C. and A.D.
I can't connect Giren to Ribbons, Giren doesn't care about newtype theory more than source of good soldiers and propaganda tool. The original script of 52 episode version even has him curse at Amuro "Damn you, Newtype!".
Ribbons, on other hand, is one of earliest Innovator. I think he can be more connect to combination of DOME and George Glenn. Then made him megalomania instead of kill-off early in backstory.
Ribbons, on other hand, is one of earliest Innovator. I think he can be more connect to combination of DOME and George Glenn. Then made him megalomania instead of kill-off early in backstory.
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Re: Parallels between U.C. and A.D.
Not when you consider the plethora of other specialized systems and last-minute hax features (Zero System, Flash System, Biosensor, Psycoframe, etc) that exist in other shows. At least, there wouldn't be anything particularly more similar than what we've seen before.Sabersonic wrote:Or something to that effect. Speaking of which, wouldn't there be parallels between the Gundam 00 and Turn A in that each have a specialized system built within them that isn't revealed until at least the final few episodes of a series that is capable of changing the world?
Re: Parallels between U.C. and A.D.
All of this is rather dependent on whether it was actually written like that intentionally which given the quality of second season Sunrise productions and the already noted "...what?" moments of 00S2, I believe makes it a bit debatable.T.V. wrote:This topic has been discussed at length in the various 00 topics when it aired (in Japan), but to chime in nonetheless:
The parts that struck me the most, in relation to UC (0079 especially), aren't so much the obvious and sometimes subtle references/homages/parallels, but rather the deconstruction of both the Char and Amuro archetypes.
The character of Char was split between Ali, who inherited the red custom MSes, and Graham, who obviously became the (antithesis of the) mysterious masked ace.
The both of them were more skillful than the main protagonist, as was Char compared to Amuro early on, but the both offer a different take on the enemy ace rival, deliberately void of that what made Char either heroic or sympathetic.
Ali being the unapologetic psychopath whilst Graham tragically becoming a shadow of his former self, removed the romantic elements of the Char archetype which I found refreshing and interesting at the same time.
Similarly, and IMHO more entertaining, was how Setsuna and Saji both carried elements of Amuro, yet being nothing like him at the same time.
Saji especially, being a clear homage ánd subversion of Amuro Ray was cleverly done IMO. His path in season 2, being the designated accidental civilian pilot, sharing Amuro's atire, skipping out in the dessert (but no 0 Raiser buried in the sand! ), his run in with Ramb... Sergei, etc., all mirrored Amuro's story throught first Gundam, yet he didn't become the super-pilot who could best professionals.
He did what Amuro only could hope to do if he wasn't an emerging newtype with awesome piloting talent.
Setsuna on the other hand, being conditioned to war since his earliest memories, was the überprofessional being brought up for and through war almost from the cradle.
So much so that he couldn't function like a normal person, having already grown accustomed to the psychic trauma Amuro underwent during the OYW. However, this jadedness turned out to be a handicap even though it initially was his strong suit. And this reversal of Amuro's path of mental development was interesting to see come about, mostly during the second season.
Re: Parallels between U.C. and A.D.
A bit off topic:
I was under the impression that most, if not all of the alternet timelines were made to re-tell the UC story line in some way. Of course there is one exception, G Gundam, but every other timeline has some sort of element that is either completely copied from the UC or a slightly altered version.
I was under the impression that most, if not all of the alternet timelines were made to re-tell the UC story line in some way. Of course there is one exception, G Gundam, but every other timeline has some sort of element that is either completely copied from the UC or a slightly altered version.
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Re: Parallels between U.C. and A.D.
AU was never intended to retell UC in any way, but rather use some of the elements of UC to create a new story. All Gundam shows have some element from the original UC Gundam because those are Gundam's roots and no matter how far AU will stray AU will always take some aspect out of UC. G Gundam is no exception in taking elements from UC. Master Asia's desire to restore the earth is something that Char himself could have said.
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