The Official Gundam 00 Season 2 Thread Mk VII: The Final

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The Official Gundam 00 Season 2 Thread Mk VII: The Final

Post by Destiny_Gundam » Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:42 am

Ok, since the series is over for now (until the movie), this is the last offical thread. After this, you're allowed to make new threads about separate topics related to 00.
MindlessFire wrote:There could be a different alternate interpretation for the final battle between Exia RII and O Gundam. Remember from the start of series when Ribbons in the O Gundam saved Setsuna's life and spared him because of the way he looked at it at that time? That near death experience was something Setsuna would remember for the rest of life and we would constantly see this flashback over and over again. Because of this he now idolizes the Gundams so much that he wants to embody Exia as himself, a Gundam. When Tieria was about shoot him after the PMC Trust intervention and asked why he deserved to be a Gundam Meister. He answers that its his existence that's the reason and that he's still alive (probably fate).

After learning that it was Ribbons in the O Gundam that saved his life and also it was him who altered Veda to make Setsuna the Exia's Gundam Meister. Setsuna was pretty scorned to find that his savior and the Gundam he'd idolized was now actually his archnemesis not to mention he'd been used as Ribbon's pawn in Season 1. When Setsuna plunged Exia's GN Sword into the O Gundam cockpit, it was like symbolizing that he was leaving his past behind him for good. Like what Lyle said, it was pointless to keep dwelling around in the past instead of turning a clean slate and look forward for the future.

Has anyone noticed that:

"Setsuna F. Seiei, will exterminate the target!"

was changed to:

"Setsuna F. Seiei, will clear a path for the future."

Come to think of it, that reminded me of the S2 character trailer where Setsuna said he's a Gundam and then said that no, he WAS a Gundam.
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Post by speedstriker » Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:47 am

MindlessFire wrote:After learning that it was Ribbons in the O Gundam that saved his life and also it was him who altered Veda to make Setsuna the Exia's Gundam Meister. Setsuna was pretty scorned to find that his savior and the Gundam he'd idolized was now actually his archnemesis not to mention he'd been used as Ribbon's pawn in Season 1. When Setsuna plunged Exia's GN Sword into the O Gundam cockpit, it was like symbolizing that he was leaving his past behind him for good. Like what Lyle said, it was pointless to keep dwelling around in the past instead of turning a clean slate and look forward for the future.
I like the way you think. I thought the same thing as well to be honest. I see the entire show as a despiction of how people are able and willing to let go of the past to carve out a better future. Those who are willing to lived and those who are not able to did not survive. Neil Dylandy, couldn't let go of his past and thus perished and so did the Trinity Siblings, Laguna, Ali, Sergei, Howard etc etc. I like this concept because it doesn't distinguish between those who are good and those who are evil and vile, and judges people simply by whether or not they still desire a future and to be able to live in that future.


*Fast Destiny is fast...(Does it matter who creates the thread?) :lol:
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Post by MindlessFire » Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:37 am

In some some way it was also one big irony. I bet neither Ribbons or Veda was able to predict that the person who Ribbons saved in a intervention where there was suppose to be no witnesses would be the person to defeat Ribbons in the end and in the exact same Gundam that Ribbons piloted 11 years ago. I mean if non of the spoilers where leaked about Exia R2 vs O Gundam, would anyone had actually seen this match up coming? This also the first Gundam series where the protagonist has a end-of-season downgrade before fighting the final boss who also receives a downgrade. It some way, it also reminded me of the ending of the original MSG where Amuro and Char continued fighting each other despite both having their respective MS destroyed.

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Post by Doven » Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:53 am

I was a bit surprized by the final battle jumping into there respected old suits (Exia upgraded a little), but I like it, and Patrick once again pulling off a Jesus Yamato, I was like WHAT!? he did it again and still completely unscathed.

Over all this would have to be my favorite series over all, and 00 is at the moment tied for my favorite gundam with Wing Zero, but there is a good chance that could change.
If knowing is half the battle then Im going in unarmed.

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Post by Destiny_Gundam » Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:36 am

MindlessFire wrote:I mean if non of the spoilers where leaked about Exia R2 vs O Gundam, would anyone had actually seen this match up coming?
I made sure not to read those spoilers, so I was pretty stoked to see the Exia return to action. Exia's my 3rd favourite Gundam after the Destiny and F91. I thought the 00 was cool, too, but it just never measured up to the Exia for me.
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Post by plau » Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:30 am

What were the three policies of the ESF? I didn't quite catch them. Thanks.
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Post by azrael » Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:53 am

plau wrote:What were the three policies of the ESF? I didn't quite catch them. Thanks.
It's really hard to hear since it becomes background noise and Saji's monologue plays over it. We will probably have to wait for the post-show publications to know what was said.

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Post by speedstriker » Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:35 pm

I like how the Mecha Gundam 00 board is becoming more and more anime lenient and how the anime thread talks more and morre about Mecha. :lol:

So, in attempt to bring the thread back on topic, let's discuss some controversial issues.

First of all, the Eifman's "you know too much" case. It was never clearly stated in the show, but from what I can gather, it probably involve his breakthrough on both fronts of Celestial Being's agenda. He must have uncovered both the Trans-Am capabilities and either directly or through theorizing, found out about the whole business of Trans-Am burst and Innovation and dialogue to come business. I may be overestimating Eifman's abilities, but really, if he discovered the true nature of GN particles and Trans-am, Eifman would be able to deduce this much, given his talents as a practical and theoretical scientist.
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Post by Brave Fencer Kirby » Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:36 pm

azrael wrote:It's really hard to hear since it becomes background noise and Saji's monologue plays over it.
Some parts of it were pretty clear (I'm fairly certain I heard the phrase "solar systemu" at one point) but I don't speak a lick of Japanese so I have no idea what was actually being said.
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Post by skyknight » Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:24 pm

speedstriker wrote: First of all, the Eifman's "you know too much" case. It was never clearly stated in the show, but from what I can gather, it probably involve his breakthrough on both fronts of Celestial Being's agenda. He must have uncovered both the Trans-Am capabilities and either directly or through theorizing, found out about the whole business of Trans-Am burst and Innovation and dialogue to come business. I may be overestimating Eifman's abilities, but really, if he discovered the true nature of GN particles and Trans-am, Eifman would be able to deduce this much, given his talents as a practical and theoretical scientist.
Oh Yeah! That was never covered in S2, but perhaps Billy did find out part of the truth, and decided to join the Innovators. He did unlock the Trans-Am for Mr.Bushido and probably understood the role of CB. But who knows? I do hope the '10 movie will unravel more about the past (Jupiter exploration, the original members of CB...)

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Post by MindlessFire » Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:07 pm

Until the movie comes out I pretty sure that almost everyone will be content with the true manga to anime adaption of Fullmetal Alchemist which now takes 00's time slot. If Fukuda and Morosawa ever plan on releasing the Gundam Seed movie announced back in 2006, they better do it this year. I'm not a marketing expert here, but isn't it not a good idea for two Gundam films (especially separate universes) to be released in the same year especially if there's a new line of model kits? Hopefully they've gotten some inspiration from watching Gundam 00.

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Post by neoei3318 » Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:31 pm

If Fukuda and Morosawa ever plan on releasing the Gundam Seed movie announced back in 2006, they better do it this year.
Not to take a detour into a unrelated topic, but considering there hasn't been an offical announcement from SUNRISE animation (who would have the final say over what Fukuda and Morosawa want) regarding a Gundam SEED feature film, I wouldn't hold my breath on that project, at least for a couple of years.

I'm not saying there wont be another Gundam SEED project, as it is very popular, regarless of the differing opinons of the general Gundam fanbase.

Right now, SUNRISE, Sotsu and Bandai want to maximise the marketablity on Gundam 00 "while the iron is hot", so to speak.

Now, back to Gundam 00.
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Post by negative13 » Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:20 pm

I dunno if this was mentioned earlier but about that line that basically introduces the movie (right before the Jupiter shot)

"The Childhood of Humankind Ends"

Most likely a reference to Childhood's End

Enforcers of peace that resemble mythological beings whose true purpose is to aid in the evolution of the human race (Celestial Being)
Evolution of the human race (Innovation)
Collective consciousness (Trans-Raiser QBW magic + Veda link)


It gives clues as to what direction the movie might take (or at least Aeolia's original plan since the current CB seem to have deviated).

Something like...

Stop war and unify Earth. (accomplished...sorta...in season 1)
Accelerate Innovation through GN magic. (accomplished with Setsuna)
Fully transfer Innovator consciousness to Veda. (accomplished by Tieria)
Assuming whats possible for Innovade consciousness is possible for true Innovator consciousness, Veda becomes the collective consciousness by collecting all evolved human consciousness. (Possible final goal of the Aeolia Plan)

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Post by speedstriker » Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:54 pm

negative13 wrote:I dunno if this was mentioned earlier but about that line that basically introduces the movie (right before the Jupiter shot)

"The Childhood of Humankind Ends"

Most likely a reference to Childhood's End

Enforcers of peace that resemble mythological beings whose true purpose is to aid in the evolution of the human race (Celestial Being)
Evolution of the human race (Innovation)
Collective consciousness (Trans-Raiser QBW magic + Veda link)


It gives clues as to what direction the movie might take (or at least Aeolia's original plan since the current CB seem to have deviated).

Something like...

Stop war and unify Earth. (accomplished...sorta...in season 1)
Accelerate Innovation through GN magic. (accomplished with Setsuna)
Fully transfer Innovator consciousness to Veda. (accomplished by Tieria)
Assuming whats possible for Innovade consciousness is possible for true Innovator consciousness, Veda becomes the collective consciousness by collecting all evolved human consciousness. (Possible final goal of the Aeolia Plan)
So... It's bascially Mobile Suit Gundam 00: You Can (Not) Innovate? :lol:
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/969/tieria.jpg

While this may be very interesting, it contradicts the entire theme of the second season though. The second season describe a process of transformation that does not address human kind as a whole, but rather each individual person who is willing to move forward and live on. This makes the point you brought up especially interesting, since if your speculation hold any merit, then that must mean that the new generation have surpassed the mind of Aolia himself and have created a future that is truly innovated from the ground up. Thanks for the info.
To the end of the GALAXY!!!!
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Post by razgriz » Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:04 pm

i hate to be a speculator but...well i kinda am hoping for aliens, as in intelligent, possibly belligerent, its definitely a direction that gundam hasnt really taken, other than a fossilized flying space whale. obviously its anyones guess at this point all i kno is jupiter is involved. jeez i wonder how long it would take the ptolemy to get there even under trans am boost? might be another serious time jump between the end of this series and the movie
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Post by Evangel » Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:28 pm

Haha, just thought of something ironically funny.

Patrick at his wedding said he was now lucky, and yet he peeked in on whats her face. Sorry Pat, thats bad luck.

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Post by Ryvius » Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:34 pm

(I will assume anyone reading this post has seen the whole series, so spoilers ahead)
Kavik Ryx wrote:That all being said, the show is not without its flaws, if you would pardon the insanely cliched way to being this paragraph. The characters were the biggest issue. Despite growing a liking towards them and there being some real development here and there, there was this real emotional disconnect. And then there were the absolutely useless ones, like what Marina seemed like, or the ones who were so incidental that they could have been easily replaced, which much of the supporting cast was. The battles were cool, but hampered by the fact that the main characters would get out with only a few scratches and a broken limb. The staff really didn't seem to have the balls to kill anyone off. And finally, it is just, so, convoluted. While I could make sense of most of it, most people are probably going to see it as little more than circular logic. Also, I can kind of tell what the 00 was supposed to do. But did it actually succeed in serving its overall purpose, or did it blow up before that was possible?
There characters were my biggest issue too.

We had both invincible heroes and on the other hand, a large amount of incredibly anticlimatic death's with just about every supporting character or previous villian they killed off (with the exception of the Innovators whom I just thought were worthless right off the bat). Simply put I think the issue was that the cast was just way too big for its own good. I hate to bring up the comparison, but I couldn't help but look at the Innovators as another group of Knights of the Round-esque characters (Code Geass R2). They were for the most part totally worthless and overshadowed other characters that needed more development. And of course, whenever they got into a main battle, it took a few seconds for them to die instantly... am I supposed to care? With the exception of Anew that had a minor key role, I hated the rest of the group.

Graham was completely trashed and I hated the "good end" they tried to give us with him at the end. For me season two ruined him beyond repair. He should've stayed dead and with that, they easily could've have given either Ali, Nena, etc, a bigger role or even had Ribbons actually go out more often and be what he was built up to be - Setsuna's rival.

Wang Liu Mei is probably one of the worst characters in any Gundam for me at this point, she's like the worst plot device ever. Not to mention they (the writers/staff) failed to kill her once and had to do it twice. Ribbons is also probably my least favorite Gundam villian and it's kind of a shame they had Amuro's VA to fill the role.

Again, the cast was just too big. This is hardly the first time this has been an issue for a Gundam series, but it seemed to hurt 00 more than others. And its even easy to say the first season focused a lot more on the plot and put the characters second, when they tried putting the characters first in the second season it just didn't work out that well. I'd compare it to ZZ in this regard. The characters just have issues. Lots of inconsistencies, people disappear, come back as totally different characters, many are worthless and easily replacable, etc.

All in all I can probably agree with Kavik's scoring, a solid 6-7 for me.
Evangel wrote:Haha, just thought of something ironically funny.

Patrick at his wedding said he was now lucky, and yet he peeked in on whats her face. Sorry Pat, thats bad luck.
Wow, good point. :lol:

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Post by Genocide » Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:18 pm

Was it ever explained how Sumeragi predicted Ribbons would steal/disable one of the 00's GN drives? It seemed awfully convenient for her to tell Ian to send out the R2 right before the incident, and as great of a tactical forecaster she's intended to be, I doubt she has Newtype powers letting her see into the future.

There's also that other unexplained plot device with Hallelujah returning. I suppose Allelujah really does suck on his own. It's a shame, since I was hoping he'd be able to develop into a good pilot without Hal holding his hand, and they definitely had a chance to develop it that way after "killing" him off.

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Post by T.V. » Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:45 pm

Genocide wrote:Was it ever explained how Sumeragi predicted Ribbons would steal/disable one of the 00's GN drives? It seemed awfully convenient for her to tell Ian to send out the R2 right before the incident, and as great of a tactical forecaster she's intended to be, I doubt she has Newtype powers letting her see into the future.
That was quite iffy, seeing it from that perspective

However, she might've not have specifically foreseen the theft of one of 00's GN Drives though, but still have the foresight of wanting the R2 prepped anyway, ready to recieve any available GN Drive and any pilot, just in case Ribbons pulled yet another rabbit out of his hat.

I personally think she saw where the battle was heading, 00 and Ribbons Gundam beating the tar out of eachother, keenly aware of the possibility of the 00 coming up short.
The prepping of the R2 was simply a precausionary meassure since no other Mobile Suit/Weapon was still available and able to provide back up to the 00 or generally bolster CB's fighting strength.
Wether it would've recieved one of 00's own GN Drives or one from the other 3 trashed Gundams, was pretty irrelevant.
And if the 00 was still able to effectively fight to some degree, someone else might've piloted the Exia, supporting Setsuna -still piloting the 00- against Ribbons.

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Post by Qwerty » Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:23 pm

What an ending. What a show.

This finale was great. The final episode delivered on the kind of great action that we expect, but it also took some time to end things properly and give most of the cast an appropriate send-off. Personally, I appreciate this. It is a bit of a departure from other endings where the final battle ends and then everything stops relatively quickly. Though 00 may not be perfect (what is?), this is a show that cares about its characters and doesn’t forget that it’s all about them just as much as it’s about anything else. It’s just the latest reaffirmation of the fact that Gundam is about more than giant robots.

It’s also very good that they offered plenty of closure, as opposed to forcing us to wait for the movie to find out what happened to everyone after Ribbons’ downfall. Instead of leaving us hanging and writing an ending that’s dependent on the movie, they instead end this chapter of the story and entice us to want more. Well done. I think that the 00 staff deserves a lot of credit for getting this right.

The final duel really highlighted Ribbons’ capacity as a pilot, as he was fighting equally against 00 Raiser in every way. The fact that Reborn Cannon transforms into a Gundam was a nice twist. It’s similar to the hidden robot features of Virtue and Seravee, and yet a step above that—this was a fully integrated machine with distinct transformations, rather than having one robot concealing the existence of another. It was an appropriate design for Ribbons: the ultimate innovator-type mobile suit for the man who considers himself well beyond them. I also find Ribbons’ twin drive system interesting. I’m a bit thrown that he apparently discovered the secret to it, for one. Did he have full access to Veda the whole time, or was he intelligent enough to actually figure out how to create one all on his own? I’m going to guess the latter, given that it apparently took Billy to give the villains the Trans Am system.

Beyond that issue, the fact that Ribbons had the twin drive and yet kept it all to himself just says even more about his massive ego and superiority complex. I kept waiting for Ribbons to be humbled by some fresh revelation or comment that would finally destroy his arrogance and make him doubt his own superiority, but such a moment never came. Indeed, he seemed pleased that Setsuna had achieved Innovation, since that gave him the opportunity to defeat a true Innovator and establish himself as beyond Aeolia’s plan and truly superior to everybody. No matter what happened, Ribbons never doubted his view of himself, even after losing Veda to Tieria. We knew Ribbons was a terrible person, but all this makes him a great villain as well. And that’s why it was so satisfying to see Setsuna take him down.

Which brings me to the surprise of the episode: Setsuna piloting a redesigned Exia against the hijacked O Gundam. How great was this? Victory actually coming down to a duel between two old generation Gundams after the obligatory titanic clash? I didn’t see that one coming. Meanwhile, you can basically read as much meaning into the symbolism as you want to. First of all you have Setsuna destroying that which he once revered, although that much honestly isn’t much of a surprise to anyone who’s been paying attention to Setsuna’s character. It’s fitting, but of course he would have no hesitation there. Secondly you have two units with original GN drives clashing, which is just perfect and my favorite aspect of the encounter. You have Ribbons’ remark that the Setsuna was basically able to stand up to him because he had original GN drives. Then Ribbons is defeated after finally getting one, which pretty much kills that little excuse. Thirdly and finally, you have the Exia killing the RX-78-colored O Gundam piloted by a character voiced by Amuro Ray’s original voice actor. I’ll leave it to other people to debate whether this simply a 30th anniversary nod or some message about how it’s time for Gundam to pass the torch to a new generation of, ahem, innovation. I’m usually skeptical of such hidden meanings, but even I wonder about that one.

To back up for just a moment, I also appreciated that the final battle was a team effort. They could have made it all about Setsuna and 00, but they didn’t. Alleujah and Lyle did a great job supporting Setsuna, and you even had the Ptolemy joining in on the fight for a bit. I really enjoyed Arios delivering the claw treatment, as well as Hal’s insult that the Innovators were weak because they relied on Veda too much. Meanwhile, Lyle achieving victory with a damaged MS really should settle any lingering doubts about his ability. That one second dodge was satisfying. Quite frankly Lyle had no business winning, but he made it happen anyway. My one regret is that Servaee didn’t get a moment to shine, but I can accept that Tieria’s significance lied beyond the battlefield.

Now I’ll say a few words about the epilogue. First of all, while there may be flaws with the character, Marina was probably utilized here as well as she could have been under the circumstances. Personally, I adored having her letter read during the final showdown between Setsuna and Ribbons. I absolutely love the symmetry with episode 25. Finally, though Marina didn’t become the kind of activist that I was hoping for, maybe I have to accept that she was making a point along with Saji. Their point of view is idealistic to a fault, but peacemakers like them couldn’t hope to succeed with an overpowering distortion like A-Laws messing things up. So having Saji succeeding in getting Louise back and having Marina back in her rightful place can be taken as rather good symbols of what the Gundams have accomplished.

The Federation reformation is promising. It’s telling that Katharon dissidents are now elected members of the legislature. Most critically, the Feddies have ended the boneheaded practice of treating countries outside of the Federation as if they don’t even exist. Maybe it’s just out of shame over what A-Laws did to screw that part of the world over, but I’ll take it. For the moment, the powers that be at least care about creating a truly global Government that rejects forceful oppression.

I’d like to get into all of the individual character endings, but for now I want to focus on the big picture. Ultimately, my hopes about the ending are basically vindicated. As Mizushima promised, the ending did not force answers on the audience. The ending went out of its way to avoid starry-eyed idealism through the commentary of Klaus and Saji regarding thinking about the world and how the real struggle is earning and keeping peace, not just talking about it. Emphasis was put on how humanity's fate has been put in its hands, instead of everything being left up to Veda or the 00 Raiser uniting the world like some were worried about.

Meanwhile, the surviving part of Celestial Being is taking a stand that makes sense. It won't disappear, with Setsuna and Lyle intending to continue on as Gundam Meisters at the least. At the same time though, they settle for solving the distortion they created and seem to be basically getting out of the way and giving the world a chance to improve on its own while they keep a watchful eye on things and acting as a deterrent. The show ends on that hopeful note while straightforwardly telling the viewer that people need to think about the world and can't remain ignorant if there's going to be progress.00 ends by basically saying that it's up to us. To us. Not to any one man or system, however advanced.

As near as I can tell, this has all the indications of a story that was generally told as it was originally intended. These are matters that Mizushima was talking about toward the very beginning of the series. 00 was able to pull off the general message that he wanted while telling a story that was as successful as it was wildly entertaining and innovative, as the approval of the movie seems to prove. And that deserves major praise.

Mission complete, 00. You've done great.

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