The Official Gundam 00 Season 2 Thread Mk VI

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Red Comet90
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Post by Red Comet90 » Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:49 am

razgriz wrote:if this is going where i think its going then setsuna may have the greatest influence and effect on humanity (within their series of course) of an anime character since shinji ikari...as morbid as it may sound i kinda hope he martyrs himself, he is a warrior and a warrior without a war well just cant exist. its for the good of humanity but that will effectively be the end of 00 tho
If that's the case then in some way he's like a imitation of Jesus and it in a sense it goes along with the whole Celestial Being names dealing with Christian aspects. To be honest I hope he doesn't die, but I hope something happens to him that won't easily let him pilot mobile suits again.
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Post by Destiny_Gundam » Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:05 am

Kira gained the "Jesus Yamato" title because of his miraculous return from the dead (twice).

Setsuna hasn't done anything of the sort. I doubt he'll die, cuz as it stands he's the only true Innovator, and the 00 is the key to Aeolia's plan. They've spend 49 episodes bringing said plan to fruition. I doubt they'd just spoil it at the end by killing off the key factor.

As for Setsuna's divinity, it's a bit of a stretch. He's not that different from Newtypes (ie, next evolutionary step), and we don't have people saying Newtypes have god complexes. It's the 00 that provides most of the miracle making, and it's crazy skillz are on a level similar to the Turn A Gundam, which is another thing I don't hear people go on about god complexes.

I suppose you could draw a comparison between Jesus and Setsuna in the sense that they're both 'shepards' leading humanity onwards. But the same could be said of any head of state or cult leader.

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Post by RedBlitz » Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:40 am

razgriz wrote:if this is going where i think its going then setsuna may have the greatest influence and effect on humanity (within their series of course) of an anime character since shinji ikari...as morbid as it may sound i kinda hope he martyrs himself, he is a warrior and a warrior without a war well just cant exist. its for the good of humanity but that will effectively be the end of 00 tho
If you think that Setsuan cant live without war... then you have 49 more episodes to watch before the finale, cause you just missed the whole point.
"We will change in order to create the future!!" - Setsuna F Seiei

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Post by ShadowCell » Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:42 am

Destiny_Gundam wrote:I suppose you could draw a comparison between Jesus and Setsuna in the sense that they're both 'shepards' leading humanity onwards. But the same could be said of any head of state or cult leader.
Uh, not really. Jesus and figures like him "shepherd" humanity onwards for humanity's sake--after all, Jesus died in doing it. Cult leaders "shepherd" humanity onward for their own sake. And heads of state, at best, "shepherd" humanity onward for both humanity's sake and their own.

The Jesus comparison, if you apply it seriously to Kira Yamato, falls apart because central to Jesus is his sacrifice on the cross, and Kira underwent nothing like that. The same goes for Setsuna, to an extent. He hasn't had to die to accomplish his goal, or undertake some similarly great sacrifice. At best, if you have to compare Setsuna to a religious figure, he makes a better fit as a prophet than as the Messiah.

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Post by pd771 » Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:56 am

ShadowCell wrote:The Jesus comparison, if you apply it seriously to Kira Yamato, falls apart because central to Jesus is his sacrifice on the cross, and Kira underwent nothing like that. The same goes for Setsuna, to an extent. He hasn't had to die to accomplish his goal, or undertake some similarly great sacrifice. At best, if you have to compare Setsuna to a religious figure, he makes a better fit as a prophet than as the Messiah.
Which would make sense with his original naming of Soran Ibrahim, which may make more sense if it's actually Ibrahim Soran, as Soran is a Kurdish clan of people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibrahim
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Post by Marcis » Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:12 pm

If the translation is correct, ep 24 had something like this:

"When Twin Drive System is linked to the true Innovator, further purified GN particles will enhance humanity..."

So we need true Innovator to purify GN particles. Even if good GN particles are harmless to humans, they do not heal or enhance anyone except maybe in huge doses, like Trans-AM Raiser. But even then one needs to experience them many times before change begins.

I don't think Setsuna qualifies ar "shepherd" because he does not leads humanity anywhere. He with TDS offers humanity a medium where everyone can communicate without misunderstandings and can understand each other.
Understanding each other does not necessary means you agree. Just that you can see oponents point, exactly like he meant it, imho.
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Post by Destiny_Gundam » Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:24 pm

ShadowCell wrote:Uh, not really. Jesus and figures like him "shepherd" humanity onwards for humanity's sake--after all, Jesus died in doing it. Cult leaders "shepherd" humanity onward for their own sake. And heads of state, at best, "shepherd" humanity onward for both humanity's sake and their own.
You're right, of course. I was merely trying to illustrate how easily broad comparisons like that can be made.

Another reason why Kira became Jesus Yamato in Destiny is because he went around preaching his ideals, and it seemed like he was some holy figure that could do no wrong. Of course this is an inacurate comparison, as Jesus actually had human flaws too.

I don't think Setsuna has to worry about crossing into Kira territory. Even though he's evolved into this super special awesome dude, Setsuna is still very human. Proof enough of this is how he swore to avenge Tieria. We can still relate to him. Where as Kira became so absolutely perfect and infallable that it's near impossible for us 'mere mortals' to connect to him.

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Post by Dark Duel » Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:48 pm

At the moment, Setsuna has crossed into the realm of CCA-Amuro. He's not even close to wandering into "Jesus Yamato" territory because he hasn't turned into, to put it as bluntly as I can, a self-righteous windbag who goes on endlessly preaching the same misguided ideals over and over again. (I personally liked Kira better when the only things he said were "Shut up" and "You're wrong" when confronted with this type of garbage)
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Post by Kavik Ryx » Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:50 pm

I've actually always seen Setsuna as closer to Chirico from VOTOMS. And now that he has ascended to virtual godhood, that might not be the most inaccurately of assumptions.

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Post by Genocide » Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:32 pm

Kavik Ryx wrote:I've actually always seen Setsuna as closer to Chirico from VOTOMS. And now that he has ascended to virtual godhood, that might not be the most inaccurately of assumptions.
Chirico Cuvie is in a realm of his own if you ask me, which is leagues beyond anyone in Gundam. Unless Setsuna starts pwning Ribbons inside a Space Tieren, that is.

While I do agree his straightforward yet human nature puts him in the same category as people like Amuro in CCA and Kincado/Seabook in Crossbone, I think overall it's pointless to compare him to other characters because of the differences that exist. For the record however, he's come a long way from being the Heero-clone he was portrayed as early in the first season.

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Post by Red Comet90 » Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:44 pm

Genocide wrote: While I do agree his straightforward yet human nature puts him in the same category as people like Amuro in CCA and Kincado/Seabook in Crossbone, I think overall it's pointless to compare him to other characters because of the differences that exist. For the record however, he's come a long way from being the Heero-clone he was portrayed as early in the first season.
I'm so glad they moved away from the eerily similar Gundam Wing standing he and Marina both had. It felt like I was watching a clone of Heero and Relena in a different universe. Setsuna has come a long way.

Now that I think about it he's kind of like Simon in Gurren Lagann. At the beginning of 00 he didn't have a reason to fight and wasn't that great of a pilot. But by the end we see that his want to change the world and fix the wrongs they have caused leads him to greater power and strength.
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Post by ShadowCell » Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:45 pm

Setsuna at the beginning of 00 had plenty of reason to fight. Remember, "I am Gundam"?

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Post by Red Comet90 » Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:58 pm

ShadowCell wrote:Setsuna at the beginning of 00 had plenty of reason to fight. Remember, "I am Gundam"?
Yeah he believed it but he didn't really have a reason to fight. It seemed more like he just fought because he was told too and because that was what he was best at.
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Post by ShadowCell » Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:02 pm

...err, no, he was totally about "becoming Gundam."

Remember, the whole Azadistan arc? And how he'd do things on his own, without authorization, like opening his cockpit at Moralia and attacking the Thrones on his own? He had his own sense of right and wrong, his own beliefs, and his own reason to fight. They just didn't always coincide perfectly with what Sumeragi and Veda decided.

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Post by Red Comet90 » Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:46 pm

I totally agree that by that point in time he was already well on his way to "being a gundam." But before that he merely fought with no purpose. Once he found his reason and believed in it he changed how he looked at the Gundam. It went from a killing machine to his way of changing the world and it becomes quite obvious by episode 12 in the aforementioned Azadistan arc.

On another note he opened up the cockpit to see if it was the man who had ingrained that false idea into him. He wanted to know why he had told him that was true. Why he had forced them all to fight. If Setsuna at this point really believed he was Gundam he wouldn't be so uncertain.
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Post by ShadowCell » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:04 pm

...nnnnnnno, he had a "reason to fight" since at least episode 2. "I am Gundam"? Remember? The Internet has made fun of Setsuna for it ever since.

He opened his cockpit in Moralia to make sure that the guy he was fighting really was Ali al-Saachez. That's...it, really. He never asked Ali anything until they fought in Azadistan, and that was long after he'd already made up his mind about there being no god in the world and whatnot.

Seriously, you appear to have missed the point of Setsuna's character throughout season one, so you might want to go back and watch those episodes again or something. He was hardly just a soulless killing machine, and he's not now. He even spared Patrick in episode 1 when he could have killed him right there.

Either way, Setsuna has never really doubted himself that much. If anything, his evolution from episode 1 of season one to now is one of maturing and checking his impulsiveness. He's in control now, and though he still has the same goal and fights for the same thing, he's much clearer now on how to do it.

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Post by razgriz » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:45 pm

sigh thats y i hate the fact that ive only seen fansubs of season 2 and ive only seen a handful of dubbed episodes on sci fi its hard for me to piece together a guy like setsuna all i kno is that he is the ever suffering hero and he could use a break :lol:
setsuna: I AM A GUNDAM!!!
graham: I AM A FLAG!!!
(setsuna giggling)
graham: NO!! i said FLLLAG!

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Post by Dark Jackal » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:44 pm

Red Comet90 wrote:I'm so glad they moved away from the eerily similar Gundam Wing standing he and Marina both had. It felt like I was watching a clone of Heero and Relena in a different universe. Setsuna has come a long way.
I wouldn't go that far to compare their relationship since Relena was, IMHO, absolutely annoying for a character. Marina gives a much more hopeful attitude and struggles to keep it with a world full of violence. It's almost motherly-like peaceful quality the way the show represented it and makes for a better character than a stubbornly theoretical Releena. I'm really happy the kids aren't on the Ptolemais which some Gundam shows are drawn to having kids running around on warships.

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Post by World's End Mecha » Sat Mar 28, 2009 1:27 am

Destiny_Gundam wrote:Kira gained the "Jesus Yamato" title because of his miraculous return from the dead (twice).
I always thought people resented Kira for his untouchable status in battle and how he was always presented in the moral right.

I worry that Setsuna might be cast in a similar light, but not nearly so absolute.

Anyway, I'm still cheering for Saji and Lockon. One got the girl, one avenged half the cast of season 1! Yay for both!

Oh, and Alleluia got back his girl too, but I don't think we're all that invested at this point.

But I wonder what Ribbons can hope to gain at this point? What's left for him? The only option I see is for him to destroy Veda and start over, but that wouldn't work. He'd be committing suicide either way.

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Post by Aegis » Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:04 am

Steal the Twin Drives? Send all of CB (the ark) on a collision course to the Earth? ;p

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