The Official Gundam 00 Season 2 Thread Mk IV

[ShadowCell]

If that's the case, though, then he'd fight any Gundam that comes his way. But he specifically waits for the 00 and actually ignores all the other ones.

[latenlazy]

So, latenlazy, what you're saying is that they intended Mr. Bushido to be a waste of screen time?

If that's the case, then that's even worse than if he had just unintentionally become a waste of time, because 00's cast is huge enough already and doesn't need a character whose purpose is to be without purpose when they have plenty of characters that could use the attention.

It also doesn't help that he only reminds us of his purposelessness once every couple of blue moons, and the rest of the time he's just sitting around off-screen.

It's really nothing more than an excuse to say that the writers meant to do something badly. In fact, that's actually worse than inadvertently doing something badly.

If you would like to put it that way .

But given how I watch this show I don't see this as a "waste of screentime". Shows that try to be more than just entertainment will reinforce a point even if certain points of their audience don't care for it. Graham's character makes a point, even if the point is not appreciated, and therefore when he pops up for his few seconds at attention, the makers of the show aren't not wasting time with him as much as making using it to demonstrate something they think it's relevant.

Perhaps you're bothered by Graham's lack of a constructive purpose, but at least the way I see it though he isn't constructive to the plot, his presence in the story is directed in a way that it presents a constructive point in a larger framework. From a philosophical point of view he represents something that is common in the world but is often shed on screen because it has little entertainment or story value. However, he is nonetheless relevant to the point of view this story represents even if he isn't to its plot and development. Whether this is noticed or welcomed by the audience is variable of course, but the fact that he does seem to represent a point, though not one that's acceptable to everyone, means I think that he isn't a waste of screen time.

I don't think it's necessarily right to accuse the writers of trying to waste time just because you don't appreciate a point they're trying to make Afterall, not everything a writer does will be appreciated by everyone, but it doesn't mean the writer didn't intend for their work to matter.

[Dean_the_Young]

If that's the case, though, then he'd fight any Gundam that comes his way. But he specifically waits for the 00 and actually ignores all the other ones.

Because it's the strongest one, as I also suggested. If he wants to truly surpass Gundam, he needs to, well, surpass Gundam. He could beat one of the others, but if the pinnacle of that which is Gundam is still there, so what?

[ShadowCell]

You can't say that the writers are trying to make a point with this character when you're the one trying to shoehorn it in. Nowhere has the show indicated that Graham/Mr. Bushido is supposed to represent a war-scarred veteran or a man gone too far in his obsession. Their semi-conversation in episode 16 simply highlighted what was always true about Graham: he wants to surpass and destroy the Gundams. That's what he wanted to do in all of season 1, and only at the end of season 1 did he lose all the stuff that held him back from going all-out. In season 2, he rarely, if ever, is even referenced by other characters. His obsession with the Gundams goes by apparently totally unnoticed to all his colleagues and never affects them either way (although frankly, that may be a result of him spending most of the time outside of the story, sitting on his ass). He largely exists in a void without any greater meaning and context. Your theory about how he actually represents the result of obsession would only hold water if he was shown to actually cause negative consequences to himself and his colleagues (although again, that may not be shown because he spends most of the time outside of the story, sitting on his ass), because only then would it be clear that they're trying to say that obsession gone too far leads to destruction. Instead, though, he just comes off as a poorly-conceived character--and a poorly conceived character who spends most of the time outside of the story, sitting on his ass.

So, there isn't a philosophical point to appreciate, other than one you invented. And if that's the case, then it's not their work you're talking about, it's your interpretation.

Because it's the strongest one, as I also suggested. If he wants to truly surpass Gundam, he needs to, well, surpass Gundam. He could beat one of the others, but if the pinnacle of that which is Gundam is still there, so what?

That would still make him Setsuna's rival, though, since Setsuna and 00 are so inextricably linked. And since Setsuna is the one he fought the most in his various Flags, and Setsuna is the one he at least has a face to remember, it makes more sense to see him as specifically going after Setsuna--perhaps simply because Setsuna has the strongest Gundam--rather than being a rival to all Gundams or the concept of Gundams. If he was that, then he wouldn't have turned up his nose at fighting the other three. He spent all of season 1 wanting to surpass and destroy the Gundams, but he didn't care which one he was fighting. In season 2, he still wants to surpass and destroy the Gundams, the only difference being that doesn't have anything else to do but want to surpass and destroy the Gundams--and yet he's focused specifically on Setsuna.

[Strike Zero]

...and yet he's focused specifically on Setsuna.

Bushido does indeed view Setsuna as his particular rival. When they first encountered each other after Celestial Being's four year hiatus, Bushido was able to determine that the 00's pilot was Setsuna just by observing its swordplay, and expressed great joy at being able to face him once again. It shouldn't come as a surprise--he did declare back in season one that the two of them were connected by the "red string of fate", after all.

[jam!]

No matter what else you two may argue about, the fact is that even as Graham the man was becoming more and more obsessed with the Gundam(s).

Look at when he first tackled Exia. That was pretty much in the same style as him now piloting the Murasao to attack 00 out of the blue. From there he went on to ask for upgrades to his Flag to better match the Exia and other Gundams and kept obsessed with fighting the Gundams. His obsession grew to the point where he would forget about using a GN-X and instead reoutfit his Flag (I don't care if you say the oath to Howard Mason was the reason because it was still bloody stupid!) with a GN-T drive and THEN face Exia alone! He didn't even try to help Alejandro!
(Speaking of which.....has it ever been disclosed how Graham got his GN Flag into space or why he chose not to join in the offensive with the others?)

Graham's just been getting more obsessed. Simple as that. The 4 years with scars from the battles clearly drove his obsession and maniac attitude about war. We were hinted to the fact that something's not quite right with him anyway considering he might have killed a superior officer.

[Strike Zero]

Speaking of which.....has it ever been disclosed how Graham got his GN Flag into space or why he chose not to join in the offensive with the others?

Probably just like how they get everything else into space: he took it up using the orbital elevator.

As to why he didn't join the offensive, that should be obvious; it took some time to modify his Flag so that it was compatible with the GN drive, which is why he couldn't make it until the very end of the final battle.

[latenlazy]

@ Shadowcell

I think Graham's quirky dialogue and his behavior is enough to demonstrate his descent into obsession and the way he is used as an obstacle in a somewhat convoluted Hero's Journey for Setsuna is a sign of what he's suppose to represent. I'm not trying to shoehorn anything. I'm just presenting my interpretation of the story and the events. It seems that your interpretation of evidence requires acknowledgment within the framework of the story, particularly some recognition from characters, for the point to be valid. That's fine. I interpret evidence differently. We're entitled to our own points of views and neither is more or less valid than the other. If you disagree on how to interpret on the evidence no one is going to force you to change your mind.

[jam!]

Speaking of which.....has it ever been disclosed how Graham got his GN Flag into space or why he chose not to join in the offensive with the others?

Probably just like how they get everything else into space: he took it up using the orbital elevator.

As to why he didn't join the offensive, that should be obvious; it took some time to modify his Flag so that it was compatible with the GN drive, which is why he couldn't make it until the very end of the final battle.

So no ship? no crew? no backup? He just goes the long trek of the whole orbital elevator and then rushes the Gundam from nowhere....getting there only seconds after Alejandro is killed hence the GN Flag was finished while the battle was going on......?

Sounds a lot like Mistah Bushido and otherwise, pretty silly anyway.

I still don't think there's been that much of a character shift from Graham to Bushido as some make it seem.

[Dean_the_Young]

So no ship? no crew? no backup? He just goes the long trek of the whole orbital elevator and then rushes the Gundam from nowhere....getting there only seconds after Alejandro is killed hence the GN Flag was finished while the battle was going on......?

Pretty much. (Well, the Flag was probably finished a day or two before the final battle, and Graham's been rushing...)

There could have been a transport ship that got him most of the way, and he just sortied from there, but the important part was the 'dramatic entrance'.

Sounds a lot like Mistah Bushido and otherwise, pretty silly anyway.

I still don't think there's been that much of a character shift from Graham to Bushido as some make it seem.

I think it's left a character shift and more of Graham's attributes going to an extreme.

Sort of like how Lockon let his hatred of terrorists consume him in the face of Ali, only Graham didn't die.

Which poses the interesting question of if Graham had died and Lockon 1.0 lived...

[Meteoid]

Which poses the interesting question of if Graham had died and Lockon 1.0 lived...

If Lockon 1.0 had lived then he would have been saved by Setsuna and sat around with a wrecked mobile suit till season 2 when Neil would have piloted Cherudim. But he didn't.
And if Graham had died, we would miss about 5 minutes of 00 and Ahead/Masurao flying at each other and clashing swords, and a bit more time of Mr. Bushido standing around acting cool.
So if Graham had died would actually have affected season 2's plot at all?

[Dark Duel]

So if Graham had died would actually have affected season 2's plot at all?

Considering his relevance to the plot thus far, I'd say not much, if at all.

[Casval Rem Daikun]

At best I'd say Billy would have to find another outlet for his deep burning hatred of Setsuna, Kujo and CB.

Maybe Patrick would've gotten the Masurao.

[pew-pew-pew]

Zinin would've replaced Graham if he had died in S1 which I think would've been a much better way to go than to re-invent Graham into a masked character.

[NIGHTSHADOW99]

Zinin would've replaced Graham if he had died in S1 which I think would've been a much better way to go than to re-invent Graham into a masked character.

Isn't it tradition to have some krayzie masked bastard in every gundam series!

[OpMegs]

It may be tradition, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily a good thing.

For instance, it's also a tradition that only the main antagonists ever really get a leg up on the Gundam pilot(s), usually with some kind of custom MS.

However, Gundam 00 twisted that all around by making the Gundam's technical superiority so steep that even mediocre pilots(the Trinities come to mind) could massacre armies of obsolete MS with them, but when the tech curve was no longer so steep(the introduction of the GN-X), the other side's superior numbers and training became a dangerous factor they hadn't dealt with before.

The current S2 Gundams aren't *that* advanced beyond modern GN-Tau MS, and thus combat is much more interesting as both sides are acting more tactically(with Trans-Am 00 Gundam being the only true "game breaker" among CB's weapons).

Thus, Gundam 00 took a tradition (the protagonists are only under threat if the enemy pilot is a named ace in a custom unit) and turned it on its head into an interesting dramatic point. Ergo, going with tradition isn't always the best choice.

[NIGHTSHADOW99]

It may be tradition, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily a good thing.

For instance, it's also a tradition that only the main antagonists ever really get a leg up on the Gundam pilot(s), usually with some kind of custom MS.

However, Gundam 00 twisted that all around by making the Gundam's technical superiority so steep that even mediocre pilots(the Trinities come to mind) could massacre armies of obsolete MS with them, but when the tech curve was no longer so steep(the introduction of the GN-X), the other side's superior numbers and training became a dangerous factor they hadn't dealt with before.

The current S2 Gundams aren't *that* advanced beyond modern GN-Tau MS, and thus combat is much more interesting as both sides are acting more tactically(with Trans-Am 00 Gundam being the only true "game breaker" among CB's weapons).

Thus, Gundam 00 took a tradition (the protagonists are only under threat if the enemy pilot is a named ace in a custom unit) and turned it on its head into an interesting dramatic point. Ergo, going with tradition isn't always the best choice.

I agree with what you said, I love how both sides are pretty much even in season 2 and at the end of season 1 CB had major problems with the GN-X's, but the I'm glad the ace antagonists still have badazz customs suit and the masked man still lives, even though he's a tad bit weird and obsessive, just a tad though.

[Mythgarr]

Of this Graham-based convention? What's this? The most interesting characters are those who have least screen times and lost characters between season?

What makes this interesting for me, actually, is the downhill sensation that I feel from this show. Like, you know, going from SEED to SEED DESTINY?

From shocker-fest in season 1 we are now given cliche-fest this season. Lame.

Full Metal Alchemist: Second Forging better be good

[Dean_the_Young]

Of this Graham-based convention? What's this? The most interesting characters are those who have least screen times and lost characters between season?

What makes this interesting for me, actually, is the downhill sensation that I feel from this show. Like, you know, going from SEED to SEED DESTINY?

From shocker-fest in season 1 we are now given cliche-fest this season. Lame.

Full Metal Alchemist: Second Forging better be good

Since S1 had plenty of cliches and flaws of its own (I compiled a whole list of them), it would be nice if you brought up specific issues rather than make over-generalizations without support.

[Aegis]

I consider the second season so far to be the better of the two, so I don't know what makes season 1 such a 'shocker fest' myself. Downhill sensation? Uh... have yet to really see it.