The Official Gundam 00 Season 2 Thread Mk IV

[Chris]

Andrei certainly did it out of hate, but his actions were to against a person who he believes led a coup, took 60,000 people hostage, and was murdering them. His actions aren't out of line under those circumstances.

What you're failing to see is that his actions ARE completely out of line. Soldiers only see what is in front of them, which is why they have to follow orders from commanders who are thinking differently and can see the big picture. Because of Andrei's rash actions, the Federation can't:

-Interrogate Hercules to find out how high the coup goes and who else is involved.

-Put him on public trial to make an example out of him for the world (i.e. Nuremberg trials, Saddam Hussein).

If soldiers acted as you're positing, out of feelings and assumptions, we'd have an entire world full of war criminals. This is not how it works.

[pd771]

Andrei certainly did it out of hate, but his actions were to against a person who he believes led a coup, took 60,000 people hostage, and was murdering them. His actions aren't out of line under those circumstances.

What you're failing to see is that his actions ARE completely out of line. Soldiers only see what is in front of them, which is why they have to follow orders from commanders who are thinking differently and can see the big picture. Because of Andrei's rash actions, the Federation can't:

-Interrogate Hercules to find out how high the coup goes and who else is involved.

-Put him on public trial to make an example out of him for the world (i.e. Nuremberg trials, Saddam Hussein).

If soldiers acted as you're positing, out of feelings and assumptions, we'd have an entire world full of war criminals. This is not how it works.

Of course not. But, as you've said many times, this is a show with giant robots. Realism isn't always the key. Story-telling is.

[Genocide]

Of course not. But, as you've said many times, this is a show with giant robots. Realism isn't always the key. Story-telling is.

Side-stepping realism still doesn't justify anything. If we went by that, then the whole concept of 'good guys' and 'bad guys' might as well go out the window. And when people say realism doesn't matter in anime, they mean in terms of physics. You can't have good story telling unless it's a believable story, or else everyone might as well act like MISTAH BUSHIDO.That was a cheap shot at Graham, I know...

[Chris]

Of course not. But, as you've said many times, this is a show with giant robots. Realism isn't always the key. Story-telling is.

Please don't try to sidestep the issue. Robots have nothing to do with the point of what we're debating here. The issue would be the same even if Andrei just walked up to Hercules and Sergei and shot them in the face with a pistol. The method doesn't matter, it's what he did that does.

[Dean_the_Young]

Since when did A-LAW pilots take prisoners? Since episode one they've always been a "kill the traitors then and there" force. They're an elimination force, not constables who disable their oponents and bring them in for trial.

[Genocide]

Since when did A-LAW pilots take prisoners? Since episode one they've always been a "kill the traitors then and there" force. They're an elimination force, not constables who disable their oponents and bring them in for trial.

The A-Laws are much more ambitious than a simple elimination force. They might not want to give Hercules a trial, but I'd imagine that they would want to extract as much information from him as they could. Of course, simply because they're A-Laws, they probably don't care whether he dies or gets captured since either scenerio is a victory.

[Windknight]

Andrei certainly did it out of hate, but his actions were to against a person who he believes led a coup, took 60,000 people hostage, and was murdering them. His actions aren't out of line under those circumstances.

Except as an A-laws, he should really know that the deaths were caused by A-laws actions.

[Dean_the_Young]

Except as an A-laws, he should really know that the deaths were caused by A-laws actions.

Why in the world would he? The people who know of the Memento Mori are the few commanders enforcing the gag order and those who have seen it in person: Andrei is neither. There is nothing to suggest he knows of the Memento Mori, or that it fired on the tower. It's not like the coup forces, Katharon, or even CB made a broadcast about it.

[scythedd7]

Since when did A-LAW pilots take prisoners? Since episode one they've always been a "kill the traitors then and there" force. They're an elimination force, not constables who disable their oponents and bring them in for trial.

While we haven't seen the pilots take prisoners we do know they take prisoners. Heck, a whole episode revolved around it. They even had Al holed up for 4 years. What else were they gonna get out of him? Also Marina and a bunch of Kataron folk. Then again after breaking out all the prisoners there by CB may of had the A-Laws take a different approach to the matter (they seemed a lot more TAKE NO PRISONER!-like after that incident with the attack on the Kataron base.

speaking of which....what canyon on Earth from at the bottom of which Marina and Kataron can see EVERYTHING that happens in this series? That really makes no sense at all.

[Dean_the_Young]

While we haven't seen the pilots take prisoners we do know they take prisoners. Heck, a whole episode revolved around it. They even had Al holed up for 4 years. What else were they gonna get out of him? Also Marina and a bunch of Kataron folk. Then again after breaking out all the prisoners there by CB may of had the A-Laws take a different approach to the matter (they seemed a lot more TAKE NO PRISONER!-like after that incident with the attack on the Kataron base.

Those weren't A-LAW pilots, though: heck, the A-LAWs weren't even formed when Al was taken prisoner. The A-LAWS have their own constuble force, but we've never seen their military arm even try to take prisoners, even when they could.

[Kavik Ryx]

While we haven't seen the pilots take prisoners we do know they take prisoners. Heck, a whole episode revolved around it. They even had Al holed up for 4 years. What else were they gonna get out of him? Also Marina and a bunch of Kataron folk. Then again after breaking out all the prisoners there by CB may of had the A-Laws take a different approach to the matter (they seemed a lot more TAKE NO PRISONER!-like after that incident with the attack on the Kataron base.

Those weren't A-LAW pilots, though: heck, the A-LAWs weren't even formed when Al was taken prisoner. The A-LAWS have their own constuble force, but we've never seen their military arm even try to take prisoners, even when they could.

Thus why there is no justification for Andrei's actions. The organization he represents is a twisted one, and all he achieved in doing was perpetuating its values. You wouldn't say that a child molester is justified because he is a member of NAMBLA, or that a an SS is because he is backed by the Nazi Party. An unjustifiable action is still an unjustifiable action.

[ShadowCell]

Alright, the Nazis have been dragged into this argument, so now we all lose and Godwin's Law is once more upheld. Happy now? Let that be the end of this stupid fight over Andrei.

[Dean_the_Young]

How about something we can all agree on: Mr. Bushido not showing up and chopping up debris with his swords was lame, both for the lost animation and for the character himself.

[Meteoid]

They didn't because he'd be too busy trying to fight Setsuna. Graham would just dodge the debris and hunt down the nearest blue and white Gundam.

Graham: The imminent destruction of an orbital elevator is irrelevant when there's a Gundam to be fought!

[Strike Zero]

Indeed. While he may have come to his senses and joined in with the debris stopping (which would have been awesome) logic forces us to conclude that he would have probably ignored everything else going on around him and jumped straight into a duel with Setsuna, which even I wouldn't have been very interested in at that point.

[Genocide]

How about something we can all agree on: Mr. Bushido not showing up and chopping up debris with his swords was lame, both for the lost animation and for the character himself.

Well, even if he were willing to cooperate, unless the Masurao has a long range weapon of some sort, chopping chunks of debris at point-blank while a million bullets and beams travel towards the same object would lead to the early demise of an otherwise unused character. And we can't have that happen so early in the series.

[Dean_the_Young]

Well, even if he were willing to cooperate, unless the Masurao has a long range weapon of some sort, chopping chunks of debris at point-blank while a million bullets and beams travel towards the same object would lead to the early demise of an otherwise unused character. And we can't have that happen so early in the series.

Clearly he'd have to be a better pilot than that, and use trans-am.

Seriously, though, I was expecting him to come out and slice that extra-big block that Tieria went trans-am for: chopping that into manageable pieces would hve been cooler and would have saved particles.

[Strike Zero]

Well, even if he were willing to cooperate, unless the Masurao has a long range weapon of some sort, chopping chunks of debris at point-blank while a million bullets and beams travel towards the same object would lead to the early demise of an otherwise unused character. And we can't have that happen so early in the series.

Say wot? I guarantee you that if he had joined in, Mistah Bushido would have not only been able dodge every single shot coming up from the ground, he would have been able to destroy more debris than anybody. He's just that awesome when it come to teh swordz.

[Neo_Senku]

The only way you could have gotten Grah.....Mr. Bushido to help out is if 00 Gundams were painted on all of the falling debris.

[Dean_the_Young]

The only way you could have gotten Grah.....Mr. Bushido to help out is if 00 Gundams were painted on all of the falling debris.

Nah, you'd just have to put it in terms of of surpassing Gundam.

"What? The two-drive destroyed one hundred pieces in a minute? I'll destroy twice that many with just one sword."