The Official Gundam 00 Season 2 Thread Unit 2

[T.V.]

Unlike the Trial System, though, this one [Exia's Sword] works against any GN Drive-equipped machine.

-- Mark

That's not my personal interpretation in that the Trail System, like Exia's anti Gundam sword, also potentially works against any GN Drive-equipped machine.

It's my view that Nadleeh establishes a link with the target MS, and that VEDA is the overseer to prevent missuse of the Trail System, in case Nadleeh's gone rogue or hijacked.
VEDA itself is a safeguard as well as the only computer powerful enough to handle to quantum calculations needed to control multiple targets.
Nadleeh's part of the Trail System is a GN Jammer of sorts and VEDA is the controlling 'mind', while Tieria is the operator, in my opinion.

Nadleeh Akwos' added antennas boosting the Trail System's control range makes only sense in this case, because otherwise a CB Gundam's pre-existing link with VEDA would invalidate the need of the antennas altogether.
The Trail System would then logically have unlimited range, since the original Gundams were in continuous contact with VEDA all the time, wherever they were, giving Nadleeh the power to shut down Gundams anywhere at any time. This not the case however, since there's an implied need for Nadleeh to be within a certain broadcast range, establishing a direct link with the targeted Gundams and potential other MSes.

Furthermore this season's revelation that the Thrones weren't part of the original plan, according to Red Haro in episode 2, and VEDA not acknowledging them, makes it doubtful that the Thrones were ever connected to VEDA to begin with. At least not until Nadleeh engages the Trial System, strengthening the idea of the link only being established there and then in my humble opinion.


From a story potential -Schenberg knowing every eventuality and planning countermeassures against them- what I described above makes more sense IMHO, by having all anti-Gundam technologies be applicable to non CB machines as well, not singling out the Trail system as a pure anti-CB created Gundam.

Speculating even more; if Ribbons' Plan is indeed malicious, wanting to unite mankind by brainwashing them, applying the principles behind GN Telepathy on a global scale would be the way to do it.
And refining the technology behind the Trail System (as I put it), would be the obvious way to effect control.
Instead of controlling GN Drives through GN particle manipulation, you'd controls the minds of people by QBW + GN particle manipulation.
Of course, having VEDA in his grasp would be instrumental to Ribbons if he were to execute such a Plan.



Additionally, of interesting note is this snippet from the mecha thread, concerning the creators' intent:

Queen Gundam (Nadleeh's prototype)

Like the queen who has no blind spots, it has an extensive attack capacity, above the board (battlefield) this type dominates the MS below with it's special grabbing capability.

Originally with something like a "Psychomu-like ESP enabled Gundam" ability to grasp other MS units (not limited to Gundam types) as well as being equipped with wireless weapons which could be used as attack and defense tools (fannel[s]).

If the original idea behind the Trail System was for it to be usable against any MS, wouldn't it be logical to assume that it isn't completely nerfed to anti-CB Gundam use only, but applicable against "any solar reactor equipped machines, such as Gundams" but not exclusive to?

It's not evidence, but this bit of "creators' original intent" -if indeed true- is tantalizing nonetheless.




P.S.
I previously posted this "Trial System = GN Jammer+VEDA"-theory already a couple of months ago in the mecha thread and do not wish to restart that argument. Therefore I won't defend my views expressed in this post concering this matter.
Rather I wish to inform new readers of my opinion in a hopefully clearer manner than I did before.
In light of the more recent relevations such as those made by Seravee's kit manual and the show itself, I think it's relevant again.

[Swithin]

Hmmm, should I put "Tsundere for 00" in my sig?

Do it.

If they're already anticipating the possibility that a Gundam could be stolen, wouldn't it just be even more of a problem if it was Nadleeh's pilot that turned rogue and insta-won by shutting down all of the other Gundams? It seems like an incredibly large chance to take on a person he probably never met in his life, unless Tieria's a lot older than we know.

I think the TRIAL system requires the pilot also to have a direct connection to Veda. When Tieria was cut off from Veda, his TRIAL system privileges were revoked. That's the safety measure in itself: if Veda ascertains that the pilot of the Nadleeh is disloyal/unstable/whatever, it can shut down at least TRIAL.

The real weakpoint in Veda's security system is control of Veda itself, which has already been exploited. It would be interesting to find out, now that the Ptolemaios is running a "free private server" version of Veda for its CNC software if Tieria can still use TRIAL against the other Ptolemaios meisters - I think he could.

[Edit: I've been ninja'd!]

Good points T.V., but I disagree with you about the TRIAL system's ability to block or dampen GN particles from one given suit. You wrote:

The Trail System would then logically have unlimited range, since the original Gundams were in continuous contact with VEDA all the time, wherever they were, giving Nadleeh the power to shut down Gundams anywhere at any time. This not the case however, since there's an implied need for Nadleeh to be within a certain broadcast range, establishing a direct link with the targeted Gundams and potential other MSes.

I'd have to rewatch the episode to make sure, but I thought it was implied that the TRIAL system wasn't limited to powering down other gundams, but could actually take total control over their onboard OS and basically make them do whatever the Nadleeh's pilot wanted. I got the impression that the reason Tieria only chose to have them power down was because it was simply the quickest way of getting them to stop fighting. At that point, the CB-alpha meisters weren't out to actually kill the CB-beta meisters or destroy the Thrones. That, and he was technically controlling three suits at a time with his mind and shutting them down was the least taxing option.

My impression was that TRIAL is meant to aid not only in disabling a rogue gundam, but also enables recovering its solar furnace by piloting it home (perhaps even ejecting its pilot in the process.) The reason the system is short-ranged is because it's not just getting access codes or whatnot from Veda, but also transferring in real-time system information to the Innovator using TRIAL and piloting instructions back to the controlled suit. If you think about it, that could end up be a pretty high bandwidth communication, and would require a pretty beefy energy output to establish a radio or GN-radio communication link in a GN-particle flooded area, since TRIAL cannot use laser-communication - if hiding behind a rock or your shield, or disabling one of your cameras, lets you off the hook from TRIAL, it would be a pretty sucky system.

[T.V.]

I think the TRIAL system requires the pilot also to have a direct connection to Veda. When Tieria was cut off from Veda, his TRIAL system privileges were revoked. That's the safety measure in itself: if Veda ascertains that the pilot of the Nadleeh is disloyal/unstable/whatever, it can shut down at least TRIAL.

However in this case it wasn't VEDA who decided to cut the link. Rather VEDA was hacked and made to sever the links with the Gundams instead.

It's never stated nor implied that VEDA is able to disconnect from a Gundam based on its own assessment.
Arguing against it even is the fact that having a rogue Gundam is planned against in the first place.
If VEDA was able to pass judgement on its own, it'd simply disconnect said Gundam or shut it down.
You're arguing that's what VEDA does in case Nadleeh's pilot goes rogue, so why bother with Nadleeh (and it's Trail System) at all then?

The fact that the Trail System is reliant on a specific Gundam -Nadleeh- and its Meister, implies that VEDA isn't able to pass judgement on its own, actually.
That would make VEDA too important as the supreme execute power in CB.
By not having such supreme executive power is a meassure against a potential hack resulting in the loss of CB's entire operating ability.
And that's exactly what we got in season 1.

I'd say it fits Schenberg's illustrated modus of operandi of putting safeguards in place for every imaginable threat to ensure the Plan's success.
That means creating an ever recurring rock-paper-scissors hierarchy within CB to prevent a top down collapse in case of compromise from within.
Giving VEDA the authority to pass judgement on its own doesn't fit in that strategy.

Schenberg has been made out to be thourough (and thus in essence all knowing) and not wager a gamble.

[Swithin]

However in this case it wasn't VEDA who decided to cut the link. Rather VEDA was hacked and made to sever the links with the Gundams instead.

Well, I'm not implying that Veda made that particular decision. That point was mostly in response to someone's question "what if the Nadleeh's pilot went rogue and used TRIAL against CB?" My answer was simply to say "if the TRIAL-user has to be an Innovator, then so long as Veda isn't compromised, Veda would be able to tell if the pilot was rogue because of the Innovator-Veda link, and wouldn't authorize TRIAL." Of course, Veda *was* compromised, but I was just discussing the merits of the design of the system itself, whose designers probably didn't assume Veda would be taken over.

You're arguing that's what VEDA does in case Nadleeh's pilot goes rogue, so why bother with Nadleeh (and it's Trail System) at all then?

Because Veda can't control a suit from a distance, while TRIAL can. Yes, Exia/00, and to some degree Kyrios/Arios, could *destroy* a GN-fielded gundam, but they'd have a difficult time recapturing it with their anti-field weapons. Even Kyrios's and Arios's claws, which seems like perfect "I'm going to grab you, and now place you over here in my jet-fighter mode" manipulator arms, would only really work in recovering a suit that's already been disabled - therefore no GN field. TRIAL can penetrate, at short ranges, the GN-field anti-communication properties and drive a renegade suit right back into its docking-container / mothership's catapult deck / wherever.

I'm proposing TRIAL exists to preserve the five solar furnaces under the control of CB, without losing one to defection or having to destroy one along with its rebellious pilot.

The fact that the Trail System is reliant on a specific Gundam -Nadleeh- and its Meister, implies that VEDA isn't able to pass judgement on its own, actually.
That would make VEDA too important as the supreme execute power in CB.
By not having such supreme executive power is a meassure against a potential hack resulting in the loss of CB's entire operating ability.
And that's exactly what we got in season 1.

But Tieria was completely Veda's tool in Season 1. He got orders from Sumeragi, then raced to his little sphere thing to see if Veda was OK with them. Tieria is acting entirely consistently with his belief that Veda is *meant* to be the supreme executive power in CB. He fortunately snaps out of it, but you really could call him a Veda-drone in season 1.

I'd say it fits Schenberg's illustrated modus of operandi of putting safeguards in place for every imaginable threat to ensure the Plan's success.
That means creating an ever recurring rock-paper-scissors hierarchy within CB to prevent a top down collapse in case of compromise from within.
Giving VEDA the authority to pass judgement on its own doesn't fit in that strategy.

Schenberg has been made out to be thourough (and thus in essence all knowing) and not wager a gamble.

I think by all rights the Ptolemaios crew *should* have been totally wiped out after the staged confrontation. If the notion is that they were somehow 'buffered' from too much harm by Aeolia's planning, look at what losses they actually *did* sustain:

Ptolemaios - Nearly totally destroyed. If it was, that's the end of everything.
Exia - The suit lost an arm, and only Setsuna's child-soldier stubbornness and a willingness to hide kept him alive until S2.
Kyrios - Suit destroyed. Solar furnace recovered only by the grace of Ptolemy 1's survival-by-a-thread. Allelujah taken prisoner.
Dynames - Basically the same story, Lockon dead.
Virtue - Armor parts destroyed, trashed Nadleeh salvaged thanks to Ptolemy.
GN Arms - I thought Lasse died, actually.

That's the barest margin of survival possible. CB got totally dominated. Alejandro Corner thought he could completely eliminate them, and nearly did. Livonze was more than happy to just sit by the sidelines and watch it happen. Why he didn't finish them off when they were completely weakened, I don't know - maybe all of the CB operation switched over to a non-Veda OS after the Ptolemy and changed hiding spots or something. I know in S2 Livonze hints that they're still part of the plan, but he didn't mind when they were seemingly annihilated at the end of S1 so I take that with a grain of salt.

In any case, this is all speculation, and you make some really good points. We'll find out soon enough, I guess.

[T.V.]

You're arguing that's what VEDA does in case Nadleeh's pilot goes rogue, so why bother with Nadleeh (and it's Trail System) at all then?

Because Veda can't control a suit from a distance, while TRIAL can.

Considering CB Gundams originally relied on a realtime connection with VEDA just for the OS to function, that becomes an illogical assumption.

Previously, a realtime connection with VEDA was required for the Gundam OS to work.
I guess distance wasn't really an issue then, since the Gundams were shown to operate globally, no matter how far they were removed from VEDA (on the moon).
If VEDA is required for the OS to function, than it's also able to manipulate the Gundam's OS and by extension, the Gundam itself, overruling the manual input of the pilot.

Just pointing that out.

Anyway, from the anime follows that VEDA is able to establish a link with Gundams, and therefore any other (radio) reciever equipped machine, anywhere on the globe.
So I reckon VEDA's own transmission range can't be an issue for the Trail System then.
Despite that the Trail System's range is limited (to Nadleeh's surrounding), thus it follows that something on board Nadleeh, unrelated to VEDA and the pilot, though of equal importance, is part of what makes the Trial System work.

I just get that the anime is intentionally ambiguous (and perhaps missleading) in some aspects considering the Trial System (and of course other plot related material), if only to evoke a response of suprise on part of the audience, when it makes a crucial return.
That's how suspense generally works anyway.
Goes to show how capable the writers are if they manage to pull it off succesfully.

Perhaps tomorrow's episode will make matters more clear.

[Aegis]

Or you're thinking way too much about Veda and the Trial System and making it more complicated than it need be. Either way, I'm more interested in the next coming episodes rather than making out Trial as something that isn't.

[azrael]

Just a update on the airing schedule from this month's Newtype

Ep. 11 - 12/14
Ep. 12 - 12/21
Ep. 13 - 12/28
January 4th, 2009, there will be a Gundam 00 New Year's program.

So there won't be a break until after the Christmas/New Year's week.

[Blade D]

Interesting reactions from Livonze's inner circle to the destruction caused by Memento Mori. Wang looked shocked, but Ali and Neena were... amused? It seems we may see a return of Neena's psychotic side from S1...
Tieria spills the beans about Innovator; the rest of the crew piece together all of the events that they previously had no explanation for.
Marie senses the oncoming attack from Revive due to QBW, with a nice "Newtype" effect.
The A-LAWS MS have black cloaks that act as crude, but effective visual camouflage in space.
Apparently, the anti-beam smoke can hurt the Gundams directly.
Sumeragi sent Saji to make sure the 0-Raiser was undamaged in the attack; when he got there, a severely wounded Ian requested that he pilot it.
Haro: "0-RAISER, DOCKING MODO!"
As was made obvious earlier in the episode when some info on his life and family was revealed, Jenin was KIA.
Upon going TRANS-AM to face Bring, Setsuna and Saji both "became Gundam." It also appears that it allowed Saji to communicate telepathically with Louise.

[SNT1]

-Sergei's alive.
-Tieria tells them about Innovators
-Barrack Zinin has a pic of his loved one. guess what happens next.
-Was that Lyle hitting on Anew?
-Innovators/ALAWS Raze CB asteroid
-Gundams sortie, they're gettin beat vs 2 Innovators, GN-XIII, Ahead
-Ian's injured (dead?) Saji pilots O Raiser! Saji's time to grow balls: Part 2
-00 Raiser forms, uber, first victim - Barrack. /salute.
-00 raiser goes Trans-AM against Garazzo, weeiird things start to happen. Like, Giving people in the battlefield NT-like powers. Now, Saji and Louise know they're on different sides. This is juicy.

[Aegis]

I... did not see that one coming. Defy all sense, huh? Didn't think they'd go THAT far.

[CarbonStereoxide]

Gundam 00 Episode 11 Montage

My afterthought for this episode: the feeling of despair and nakedness is amongst us

[Gadget]

My afterthought for this episode: the feeling of despair and nakedness is amongst us

Man, if that is we are going to see, I think Sumeragi should be the one piloting the 0 Riser.

And the classic anime 'pilot is going to die this episode'.. When they start talking about their girlfriend/wife/daughter... But not mother. ::

[Shinji103]

it just pains me to see everybody wishing the guy dies for not being a beefy pilot.

Did some one actually say this (I tl;dr'ed all the previous Saji posts)? Because there's not a single person in 00 that would count as 'beefy.' Yun Kouga is a shoujo manga-ka after all. She does effeminate pretty boys. Heck, I'd actually say, character design wise, that Saji looks more like a grown up 'man' than any of the Meisters (except Lyle I guess).

For the record, when I said "beefy" there, I didn't mean physically.


I have to admit, this episode had one of the lowest points of the 00 series. (which is, from a certain point of view, saying good things, in that the series' low-bar isn't so low) Djinn's death was super-predictable; the classic "give them some focus just before they die" cliche, like South Burning in Gundam 0083 and Physica in Macross 7. And then they give us some Djinn focus in the 00's Super-TRANS AM debut episode.

C'mon Mizsuhima, you can do better than that.

Not actually much "GAWK"-wise this episode.

00 kicks @$$ and takes names with 0 Raizer and super-TRANS AM.
CB loses the Lagrange 3 base as we saw from the preview.
Sergei's alive of course.
The biggest thing was Saji and Louise finding out they're on opposite sides. I dunno though, I thought it'd be a bit more dramatic. The too-bright "Oooh, Ahhhh" sparkly zone was a bit distracting, too.

[Windknight]

I found the scale of the operation on lagrange 3 (just how many people were aboard the asteroid base) gave context of how big CB is.

Looks like being along for the ride when docked with the 00 isn't much fun for the riser pilot... and that final shot in space...

[Dean_the_Young]

Saji is the hero of the episode, for mercifully replacing Ian as the pilot of the O-Riser.

Imagine...

Louise: don'tlookdowndon'tlookdowndon'tlookdowndon'tlookdown...

[Akai Suisei]

Is there any significance, you think, to the way that the two big Os that happened after Setsuna activated Trans-Am (aside from being where 00 presumably gets its name) looked a lot like an Infinity symbol after Saji and Louise had their little conversation thing? Or is that just me looking too far?

'Cause it's interesting that you could write OO (which those looked more like than a zero) as 00, which is, obviously, a zero/null value, but at the same time looks like infinity (∞) which is the variable-thing used to represent the opposite end of the scale from a null value.

Or is it just a neat little thing to include?

[Gadget]

'Cause it's interesting that you could write OO (which those looked more like than a zero) as 00, which is, obviously, a zero/null value, but at the same time looks like infinity (∞) which is the variable-thing used to represent the opposite end of the scale from a null value.

Or is it just a neat little thing to include?

Nahhh. If that is the case, the Gundam would have been named Turn Eight. (Turn Move the '8' 90 degrees and you get the infinty symbol.

As 0 Gundam was the first badzz Gundam. 00 would have been the cumulative of all the research into GN Drive and Gundam tech. Starting with the Astraea, the Exia and finally the GN-0000 00.

[World's End Mecha]

Is there any significance, you think, to the way that the two big Os that happened after Setsuna activated Trans-Am (aside from being where 00 presumably gets its name) looked a lot like an Infinity symbol after Saji and Louise had their little conversation thing? Or is that just me looking too far?

I noticed the same thing, but it's hard to guess if there's any meaning beyond visual appeal. Maybe the director is saying that conflict is never ending, and Saji and Louise are just tiny parts of the larger loop. Or maybe their two lives have come full circle as they connect once more.

I'm really rooting for Saji. Hopefully, this meeting will spur him into action, and he'll start training to become the O-Riser's pilot in full. It's probably his only hope of finding Louise once more.

[ZeonsSilverStar]

Without a doubt the high point of this episode was seeing the 00 Raizer in combat. They said it would defy all common sense. I found the Newtype like reaction alittle strange since neither Setsuna or Saji have nanomachines. I also found the scene with Revive alittle suspicious, it seemed like he was trying to contact someone.

[Dean_the_Young]

Without a doubt the high point of this episode was seeing the 00 Raizer in combat. They said it would defy all common sense. I found the Newtype like reaction alittle strange since neither Setsuna or Saji have nanomachines. I also found the scene with Revive alittle suspicious, it seemed like he was trying to contact someone.

They have nanomachines: nanomachines are a wide-spread invention that allows humans to live and work in space for extended periods of times (helps fight muscle aptrophy, for example).

What Setsuna and Saji don't have are quantum brainwaves, which are the real newtype magic of the show.