Ep. 110 - Kio at the End of an AGE

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Re: Ep. 110 - Kio at the End of an AGE

Post by Chris » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:04 pm

Stubbornly sticking to your (wrong) beliefs doesn't mean that you're not a coward if you don't have the determination to make the tough choices that need to be made. Hiding behind the rationale of wanting to end the war is just a cover for his weakness.

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Re: Ep. 110 - Kio at the End of an AGE

Post by Destiny_Gundam » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:52 pm

Kio's already made the hardest decision of all: the choice not to kill. A coward would have ran away from the battlefield, afraid to fight, but Kio was still on the front lines. Now let's look at the thing with Gerald. Which would be harder? Killing her, or convincing her to stop? The latter is obviously more difficult. Killing is not a "tough decision." It's an easy one.

Batman said so, and there's no arguing with Batman.

Again, which takes more courage? To lay down your weapon and extend the hand of peace in face of the possibility that the other guy will shoot you? Or to cling to your gun in fear of what the other guy might do?

Kio's decision is the right one. Gundam has always gone on about the cycle of killing. A kills B, C kills A to avenge B, D kills C to avenge A, etc. By not killing, Kio is stopping the cycle and bringing both sides closer to peace. Because what if Kio killed D, and D's son goes on to become the Vagan equivalent of Flit, or picks up where Ezelcant left off? That'll just prolong the war even more.

If Flit stopped for just five seconds and considered the Vagan's situation, he'd probably understand. The Vagans have lost friends and loved ones unfairly due to the actions of the Federation and so they're full of hated and want revenge on the Earth. This is exactly what Flit has gone through so for him to be all angry at the Vagans for doing things for the same reason he's doing them is pure hypocracy.

Flit clung to his hate like a crutch and insisted on closing his eyes to the suffering of the Vagans. I'd say that's far more cowardly. I mean, it was so bad that in the face of the Vagans destroying themselves, Flit was all "Screw that, I have to be the one to kill them all!!!"

Kio had the guts to be a bigger person than that. He took a stand and said "No, there's another way" and he made it happen with his own two hands. Nothing even remotely close to weakness there.
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Re: Ep. 110 - Kio at the End of an AGE

Post by Chris » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:55 pm

Batman? Really? So you're going to try to use a guy who has never killed since the beginning and compare him to someone who suddenly decides to stop killing people because of one sick little girl? What courage did Kio show? His no-kill attitude did absolutely NOTHING to contribute to anything. He was ignored by everyone because what he was proposing was so incredibly stupid. There's no part of the epilogue that states "The Vagans were impressed by the mercy displayed by the Gundam pilot, and upon this a foundation of peace was built."

Gundam shows, no matter what their theme, require certain people to die because they're obstacles to peace. You have to do what's necessary and kill the people who need to die. Kio didn't kill enemies when he had the chance, at the cost of his allies being killed later. He stopped Flit from killing Zeheart on the moon, which would've changed the outcome of the war. To show more concern about your enemies than your allies is weak. Also, who cares about understanding the Vagans? What the Federation did to them was certainly wrong, but it was 150 years ago. The people responsible are dead, and it's no excuse for starting a 60+ year war and killing countless civilians who had nothing to do with that. You can keep insisting otherwise, but there's nothing enlightened about Kio's actions.

In the end, you're just putting up a really soft argument for a ridiculous character who doesn't win because his actions have any logical purpose. The endpoint is not reached through any natural growth of the story. The endpoint of "we should understand each other!" occurs only because Level 5 insists that it's so.

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Re: Ep. 110 - Kio at the End of an AGE

Post by Destiny_Gundam » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:16 pm

Chris wrote:Batman? Really? So you're going to try to use a guy who has never killed since the beginning and compare him to someone who suddenly decides to stop killing people because of one sick little girl?
Actually Batman used guns and killed people all the time at first. But that was like 5 or 6 reboots ago...

Anyways, my point is that killing is easy. Finding other ways is hard.
Chris wrote:His no-kill attitude did absolutely NOTHING to contribute to anything. He was ignored by everyone because what he was proposing was so incredibly stupid. There's no part of the epilogue that states "The Vagans were impressed by the mercy displayed by the Gundam pilot, and upon this a foundation of peace was built."
You're right, it didn't say that. But gee, I dunno, maybe the Federation helping to save Second Moon helped things along? And who was responsible for that? Kio. It's actually in the writing's favor that people dismissed Kio, since that's a realistic reaction. However I bet they all wish they'd listened to him now.
Chris wrote:Kio didn't kill enemies when he had the chance, at the cost of his allies being killed later.
False. Heck, we don't even know if those pilots left floating in space were recovered. If they were it was probably by the Federation since their allies had been driven out of the area.

I know in another conversation you said that if Kio had killed Fram Obright wouldn't have died. But when did Kio ever have a chance to kill Fram? He couldn't even manage to disable her before some one saved her or she got away. Heck, she fought Flit, Asemu, and Seric's team, but none of them could kill her either. You can only make an arguement for Zanald, but he didn't get to do much before he got vapourized.
Chris wrote:He stopped Flit from killing Zeheart on the moon, which would've changed the outcome of the war.
1.) The battle was over.
2.) Zeheart was retreating
3.) Kio didn't try very hard to stop him. Flit could have still taken the shot.
4.) The condition for surrender was that the Federation let the pilots go.

Letting Flit shoot Zeheart would have been a bad idea for that last point alone. The fighting could have easily resumed, and the Vagans would further mistrust the Federation for breaking the deal.

So if you want to point fingers, I guess it's Seric's fault.
Chris wrote:Also, who cares about understanding the Vagans? What the Federation did to them was certainly wrong, but it was 150 years ago. The people responsible are dead, and it's no excuse for starting a 60+ year war and killing countless civilians who had nothing to do with that.
Except that we know they were in contact with the Federation government the entire time and yet they still weren't allowed to return to Earth. It was only a matter of time before they all died out so they had to make the "hard decision" and take Earth back by force. Ezelcant aside, the Vagans were simply fighting to live. Had they sat down with the Federation at the beginning and worked out something that everyone was happy with, none of this would have happened. But it did happen and instead of ending it with more blood shed, it's better to end it peacefully, which is what happened. Being all revenge happy like Flit wasn't going to make anyone happy.
Chris wrote:The endpoint of "we should understand each other!" occurs only because Level 5 insists that it's so.
You shouldn't make arguments like this because it brings meta arguments into it. You can attribute anything to Level 5 saying it's so. Flit doesn't hate the Vagans, Level 5 only says he does! Asemu didn't want to abandon his family, Level 5 says he did! Ezelcant wasn't crazy, Level 5 only says he was!

This is hardly the first time it's happened in Gundam either. Why did Neo Zeon troops suddenly decide they don't want to drop Axis on Earth anymore? Because Tomino said so, I guess.
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Re: Ep. 110 - Kio at the End of an AGE

Post by Strike Zero » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:26 pm

Destiny_Gundam wrote:I know in another conversation you said that if Kio had killed Fram Obright wouldn't have died. But when did Kio ever have a chance to kill Fram? He couldn't even manage to disable her before some one saved her or she got away. Heck, she fought Flit, Asemu, and Seric's team, but none of them could kill her either.
Actually, there was a pretty definitive instance where Kio had the opportunity to annihilate Fram and the Fawn Farsia using his C-Funnel Force Field of Fury. She only survived because he opted not to. Then she went on to cause problems later that resulted in the death of two of the Diva's pilots.

I mean, it's not like I minded that she survived, since Fram was one of my favorite characters for certain specific reasons, but still!
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Re: Ep. 110 - Kio at the End of an AGE

Post by Destiny_Gundam » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:44 pm

Okay, in which case he should have at least disabled her like he was doing with the others.

Still, the point of no one else being able to kill her when they were actively trying to still stands. So it's not entirely Kio's fault for what she did after that.
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Re: Ep. 110 - Kio at the End of an AGE

Post by Chris » Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:02 am

Peter:

-Kio is only responsible for saving Second Moon in that he initiated an X-Rounder ghost/hallucination of Yurin that convinced Flit to magically drop decades of hate. Nothing of what Kio said actually had any effect on Flit or anyone else. In the end, you should give the credit to the ghost or mental hallucination of a dead girl.

-On Kio being responsible for the deaths of his allies: Not false. I'm not talking about grunts, I'm referring specifically to Obright and Jonathan. If not for him sparing Fram, as Strike Zero noted, they wouldn't have died. Blame certainly falls to him as he's constantly attracting attention from enemy aces, and by not taking them out it leaves his grunt friends exposed.

-Vagans were only fighting to live? So all those soldiers we saw time and again who delighted in fighting or going on about getting back at Earthers, that's just part of "fighting to live"?

-On not killing Zeheart: Fighting can still occur during the confusion of battle even when a ceasefire is announced. The battle was already turning against the Vagans at that point, and it was a lost opportunity to kill a top ace.

-On Level 5: I can make any argument I please. If a story doesn't develop naturally and instead reaches a forced conclusion simply because the writers insist on it, I'm going to call that out.

You and I aren't going to convince each other of anything. There will be no UNDERSTANDING between us.

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Re: Ep. 110 - Kio at the End of an AGE

Post by Destiny_Gundam » Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:09 am

Chris wrote:Peter:

-Kio is only responsible for saving Second Moon in that he initiated an X-Rounder ghost/hallucination of Yurin that convinced Flit to magically drop decades of hate. Nothing of what Kio said actually had any effect on Flit or anyone else. In the end, you should give the credit to the ghost or mental hallucination of a dead girl.
Kio is still the one responsible for getting Flit to give up his hatred. Plus Kio's also the one who, ya know, beat Vagan Gear SID and destroyed the last connector to Second Moon.
Chris wrote:-Vagans were only fighting to live? So all those soldiers we saw time and again who delighted in fighting or going on about getting back at Earthers, that's just part of "fighting to live"?
And they're not allowed to vent their anger and frustration? Flit was hardly just fighting to "become the savior" either. He also did it for his own personal hatred (at the Vagan and himself for not saving his loved ones).
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Re: Ep. 110 - Kio at the End of an AGE

Post by Silver_August » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:46 pm

I tihnk all of this stems from the fact his nonsense talk sufaced because of a little girl used as a cheap plot device and pretty much exclusivly just her. Shaunalua didn't seem to change Kio's views much beyond seeing that in war, people you love will die, but got over that just in time ot get kidnapped.

As forced and silly as his views were, sticking to them even when they're being pushed to the utlimate test where your lie is on the line doesn't make you a coward....it just makes you a prideful hippie.

Though I will yield, even though this doesn't fit the definition of coward, it by no means makes him a qualified solider and should in no way be on the battlefield where your orders are to defeat the enemy until a ceasefire can be negotiated and eventually a surrender.

I will add, the Vagens attacking after all those years... I can easily buy, 150 years ago the earth ditches them, and completely blocks them from coming back to earth and does A LOT to keep it under wraps. it may have taken awhile, say....a generator or 2 of Vegan suffering, for someone to rise into power and promise them a utopia, to take them away on a magical arc to a world where the sky is blue and lakes glisten in the sun's bright light. At this point everyone alive has no idea what life was like before hand, so I can easily see them buying whatever Ezelcant fed them,and for all we know, debuting the vagen mobile suits and saying "well, if they won't give us earth, we'll take it!" aaaand cue The Day the Angel Fell.

So i can buy it just because it isn't the first time that oppression would lead to war

Also I've been biting my lip to not bring What Ifs into this because if I had the time I would do an entire re-write from Gen-2 to the end, and make the ideas laid out...not suck, but again, its pointless at this point.

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Re: Ep. 110 - Kio at the End of an AGE

Post by Destiny_Gundam » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:04 pm

Silver_August wrote:I tihnk all of this stems from the fact his nonsense talk sufaced because of a little girl used as a cheap plot device and pretty much exclusivly just her. Shaunalua didn't seem to change Kio's views much beyond seeing that in war, people you love will die, but got over that just in time ot get kidnapped.
Shanalua wasn't a Vagan, though. Kio grew up thinking Vagans were evil monsters thanks to Grandpa Flit's brainwashing. But then he found out that wasn't the case thanks to not only Lu, but Deen, that maid lady, and even Ezelcant and his wife. Yes, Lu was used as a bit of a short cut to show the Vagan's suffering but there wasn't really time for Kio to go and see all of Second Moon.
Silver_August wrote:Though I will yield, even though this doesn't fit the definition of coward, it by no means makes him a qualified solider and should in no way be on the battlefield
Well of course not. In the first place, Kio isn't a soldier. He's just some kid his Grandpa gave a Gundam to. Unlike his dad and grandpa later on (I imagine), Kio has no military training so of course he's not going to act like a soldier. Really, the bigger question is why Flit didn't take the Gundam away from Kio when he stopped being his loyal puppet I mean grandson.
Silver_August wrote:where your orders are to defeat the enemy until a ceasefire can be negotiated and eventually a surrender.
He defeated plenty of enemies, he just didn't kill them. The big problem, though, is that Kio was the only one who was actually trying to get a ceasefire. Flit had the only other person negotiating with the Vagans killed in Gen 2, remember?

I guess in the end Kio's idealism doesn't bother me in the face of Flit's extremism.

Oh, and another reason why killing Zeheart on the Moon was a bad idea: he might have been replaced by some one who was actually competant :lol:

As for Obright and Jonathan, rewatching the scene Jonathan was the one who went charging in seeking revenge for Seric, and Obright went after Fram on his own volition instead of preparing to escape. So their deaths are in part their own responsibility as well. Such is the nature of war. You can't go pinning 100% of the responsibility on Kio's shoulders.
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Re: Ep. 110 - Kio at the End of an AGE

Post by Silver_August » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:44 pm

No no when I mentioned Shaunalua I didn't say she was a vagen, I mentioned her more as a character who could've been used more as the crux to Kio's yet to be found ideologies as it was a pretty scarring moment for him in the episode it happened but beyond that it seems to be in the distant past for him while Lu seems to be his consistent reminder of his ideology.

For me I had no problem with Kio's views in concept, its just execution on part of the writers was incredibly lack luster, and only made Flit seem more appealing my (probably unintentional) comparison because the Vagens were being portrayed as unsympathetic psychos who did notihng but take and take from the life of this character (flit) we've been following up until this point, only for his spoiled grandson to tell him he's a monster for holding a grudge because they took everyone he ever loved away from him.

Though you do bring a good point...why didn't Flit just take the keys away? or even Seric, or SOME higher chain of command. I'm sure Flit is that awesome that he could pilot 2 suits at once if he wanted, lol.

Also I will side with the argument that Obright and Jonathan's deaths were not 100% Kio's fault if only because it was a grand battle, if at that moment they didn't die, some other time during the battle they could've just as easily been shot down by some other suit. Besides, I have no problem with Obright's death if only because he goes down in one of my favorite moments of the anime, with a upgraded grunt suit taking down to advanced enemy suits.

On that note, I just want to say I hate the argument/complaint about using 25-50 year old mobile suits and that fact giving other characters the edge or disadvantage. I think I hate it just because it makes me wonder, in a world where humanity can live in super advanced space colonies and fight in 20 meter robot suits armed with beam sabers and all sorts of awesome weaponry, how fast can technology really progress at that point? Considering they seem to suggest that space colonies and mobile suits in general have existed for 200+ years, without much evident advancement, what more can be done to a mobile suit to make it more advanced then ones before it? Stuff like OS and whatever powers the suit is surely under the hood stuff that doesn't require the entire suit being thrown to the side in favor of a new mold all together. It stands on 2 legs, has working thrusters and a gun, what can you do to make a newer version considered superior?

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Re: Ep. 110 - Kio at the End of an AGE

Post by mobiusdiablo » Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:29 am

Well that's sad, some of these older episodes can't even be downloaded from here now
From 00 S2 ep 25

Tieria: As long as you keep looking down on them, you'll never understand them!
Ribbons: *has Newtype-y flash of AGE, of Kio and his UNDERSTANDING replacing his show* I DON'T WANT TO UNDERSTAND!

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