Ep. 100 - Neon. Genesis. Evangelion.

[bertman4]

Gund@mn! This episode is EPIC!!

Twenty minutes in, I had to quit listening at work because I was chuckling too much. I'm finally about an hour into the show and the discussion has been fast and furious. SoulBro is his usual self minus the crazy cackling and Chris as always is asking those hard questions. However, I think something is seriously wrong with Neo. Like I said, I'm an hour into the show and there has yet to be a single mention of the Admiral or Sir Bay. WTF?

[The Fowl Sorcerous]

I do have a memory to add to the list. it's not a gundamn moment or even a mechatalk moment, but someone should hear about:

playing 1 vs 100 on xbox live, after weeks of anime trivia nights finally getting a question about gundam. a really easy question but we were all happy about it.

[Seraphic]

Segment One, BGM Selection II:
- Title: "Part 2 Gundam Huge Mix - WING" by DJ RX-78
- Original Source: "New Mobile Report Gundam Wing" Original Television Score by Koh Otani

I recognized this right away when I heard it, Soul Bro. I couldn't believe you had used it. The Dj and I actually had an argument over it because I thought it was a really bad mix, but we eventually came to terms he admitted he didn't like it very much, and we discussed how it could be improved. That mix is burned into my brain, man.

[bertman4]

OMG, so many memorable quotes. Here are my favorites.

"So you were rewatching this instead of Galactic Heroes."

"Gendou, if he's not voiced by Ikeda, I don't care."

"The bald wizard would never do that."

"You've never seen Bandai whore out their Gundam series."

"Ah, just like Eva you have no point."

[jabman025]

Good show guys the intro had me laughing myself silly...........but seriously I don't know what you guys are talking about with Neo. He sounded better than ever, in fact I enjoyed the way Neo spoke so much I hope that his voice change is permanent, the old voice just annoyed the hell out of me for some reason.

Any way on to the big topic, Neo Genesis Evangelion. Put very simply NGE is the most over hyped over sold, and over marketed anime of all time. Seriously nothing comes close to the number of rereleases and special editions of the show. There are more Rei and Auska figures than hundreds of other shows combined. Finally no show has been more talked about dissected and debated than this. Its way way way overkill for one show and some movies........

BUT

NGE's place as one of the game changing anime can not be denied. Few shows can stake a claim as a game changer. They stand as standards that all shows that follow will be measured. Mobile Suit Gundam, Cowboy Bebop, and DBZ are some prime examples. Neo Genesis Evangelion qualifies as one of those game changers. Everything that came after is compared, fair or foul, to NGE.

Is it the greatest anime show ever, no. Does it qualify as one of the handful of landmark shows that is known for growing the fanbase worldwide and altering the way anime is made, yes.

#DEFEND

[hawk of endymion]

@ jabman

Don't worry my voice will be better next episode. The reason why you don't like it because it's the voice of reason.

Now regarding your weak analysis of Eva, game changer, eh?

All Eva is: a monster of the week, super robot show with brooding teenage characters and random religious references. The angels are nothing more than nameless monsters of week that do nothing and are always destroyed by the end of each episode.

You compare Eva to MSG? MSG created a new genre, all Eva created was a generation of irritating fans like PedoBear North. If Eva is so deep, why is the story retold again and again? I'll put it to you this way, if Eva wasn't repackaged and recut or added to every year, it would've been forgotten a long time ago.

Once again, your defense is classic Knight of the Crossroad.

#destroy

[mobiusdiablo]

I'll put it to you this way, if Eva wasn't repackaged and recut or added to every year, it would've been forgotten a long time ago.

That's actually an interesting point that you bring up, one I hadn't considered until now, Neo. We all remember Evangelion, even kids from the early to late '90s because it continuously gets pimped out and vying for attention. Fans of the show are going to bite on hook line and sinker, and newcomers may give it a shot without knowing the other versions. If you take away Eva's marketing... it essentially doesn't stand out in any way - other shows have come along and done better. The only genius behind it is how it's supported and pimped by the merchandise. It would be interesting to see an Eva removed from Japan, but will we? Nope, not as long as those figures and remakes keep selling.

And, rereading my statement, I guess I'm with Neo on this one, so...

#DESTROY

[jabman025]

Don't worry my voice will be better next episode. The reason why you don't like it because it's the voice of reason.

actually I just liked it because you didn't talk near as much as a regular episode

Also the show is deep and the reason why they keep remaking and repacking the show is for two reasons. First and foremost people keep buying it (i.e. the soul bro effect). Second is the show has yet to give us all the answers of the story. No one understood the ending to the original series but a lot of people really wanted to. Every single alteration or addition to the story is looked upon a clue to unlocking the mystery. (even if it really isn't)

I reminded of the phrase "in show business always leave them wanting more" NGE pulled this off with gusto.

I might also point out the fact mobile suit gundam might have been forgotten as well, expect they keep remaking or rereleasing it every few years.......just like EVA

#DEFEND

[hotlimit]

MSG would have been forgotten... had it not been a giant toy marketing ploy. The toys are popular, so they made more shows... more shows, more toys, and so forth. The fact that the HGUC line is so strong is a testament to how the original MSG would still be popular, even without tons of re-releases.

You could probably make the same argument for EVA, but I know nothing about EVA toys other than that they are a lot more expensive than a simple 1/144 gunpla.

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

Plus they keep making NEW Gundam shows, not the original over and and over.

[hawk of endymion]

@ jabman

You make it so easy with your fanboy logic.

1. I am stealing something that Chris days all the time "just because something is popular does not make it automatically good". Case in point, Eva, its popular but it's not innoviative or different and quoting the bible, Torah or whatever to make it sound different, doesn't make it so. After peeling away every misused biblical reference, it is still just a monster of the week super robot show.

2. Your comment about MSG bring forgotten. Remember it was canceled and it only came back because of fan response, so it made an impression. If Sunrise had its way at the time, it would have been forgotten. Fans wanted to see more because it was good and different not mismanaged and uncompelling like when Eva ended. Eva had its full run of episodes to tell a good story the first time, MSG did not. That is why the MSG trilogy is the way it is.
Second, your statement that Gundam just retells MSG, wrong.
All UC shows are either a sequel or side story of MSG. The AC stories, yeah its earth vs space, but thats were it stops. AC shows not a retelling of MSG: G, Wing, X, Turn A, 00. The only AC shows that retell MSG to a point is your beloved seed and destiny and they're not in the same universe as MSG. The 90 Eva shows all in the same universe.

And don't say the gundams and ships are similar, that's true, but those are equipment not the story or events.

If you're gonna make a point, make one.

Game

Set

#destroy

[hotlimit]

Plus they keep making NEW Gundam shows, not the original over and and over.

My point was that they didn't need to make new shows to keep it popular, the sales of UC models are proof of that.

[hawk of endymion]

Plus they keep making NEW Gundam shows, not the original over and and over.

My point was that they didn't need to make new shows to keep it popular, the sales of UC models are proof of that.

Maybe, but at least each new show isn't MSG with new improved scenes and/or endings.

Friends don't let friends, become Jabmen.

#warning

[jabman025]

once again Neo you missed the point

Gundam changed anime because in showed that you could put unrealistic things such as giant robots into a real world setting, people were not divided down a line of good and evil, people could die including the "good guys".

Fans showed great interest in the follow up compilation movies and that really started the ball rolling on the gundam franchise. Since then dozens of shows (gundam and otherwise) have copied the model, and done the realistic war story. (giant robots or otherwise)

NGE changed anime because it didn't give you all the information necessary to understand what the hell was going on. What are the evas, what are the angels, what is Nerv's purpose, what is the human instrumentality project......ect. ect. Before that show all the facts of other shows were laid out either before the show started or by the time is was finished.

Fans demanded more NGE because for the first time they just couldn't wrap their heads around the ending that left so many loose ends, hell they sent the director death threats if he didn't make more.

Your right Neo, NGE is a super robot monster of the week show, and the christian themes used are mostly a cheap plot device. Thats not the point of what NGE did. NGE showed that you don't have to spoon feed the plot to the audience. You can let your audience debate on what happened and why, and when they can't solve the mystery, you can make a lot of money giving them some answers. Dozens of shows have copied this formula (super robot and otherwise)

Gundam worked because the audience liked what they saw and wanted more. NGE worked because the audience didn't understand what they saw, but they sure a hell wanted to.

[mobiusdiablo]

Jabman, gonna jump in here for a second.

Yes, Eva did not fully explain what the hell was going on and left many a person confused and having to resort to their own interpetations. Financially it's sound because it can be pimped out. However, in a story-telling, literary sense, it is a horrible way to end the story. Generally speaking, in a story you want to explain all the things that matter so that the audience can understand it - this can be left open for sequels and other works, but here's the problem: Eva doesn't give us any sequels or other works! They simply rehash the story over and over with a few minor to moderate variations, but they don't do much to explain anything more, while throwing more information at you.

Granted, it may not be fair to use this analogy, but it works - if Evangelion were a book, a novel, it's marketing strategy would not sell in the slightest, with simple variations on the same exact story. The only thing that really sells Eva besides the diehard fans that are led along like a horse to a carrot is the action sequences and marketing - Gainax draws more attention to it, getting people to buy it over and over. As its own work and story, it's average at best, and leaving people high and dry at worst. And they're going to keep doing this, over and over and over again, riding on the cow until it's absolutely dry.

TL;DR - Gundam changed anime in terms of storytelling and opening up a new genre. Evangelion's only real contribution to the medium is how it's sold to people.

[Destiny_Gundam]

All Eva is: a monster of the week, super robot show with brooding teenage characters and random religious references. The angels are nothing more than nameless monsters of week that do nothing and are always destroyed by the end of each episode.

You say that like it's a bad thing. GaoGaiGar was just a monster of the week super robot show and nothing more but look how much love that gets.

If Eva is so deep, why is the story retold again and again? I'll put it to you this way, if Eva wasn't repackaged and recut or added to every year, it would've been forgotten a long time ago.

Neo, no matter how many times you say it's been retold over and over it's not going to become any more true. Other than the original you have the Director's cut of the last few episodes that adds a few new scenes, and now we have the movies. Re-releases do not count as retellings, as they are just repackaging of the product. A retelling is something that is passed off as a new product, like the movies.

And you've got it backwards. It's not that it's remembered becaused of all the releases, it gets all the releases because it is remembered. Otherwise releasing is a waste of money and if they didn't make a profit they wouldn't keep doing it.

Besides, everything will be forgotten at some point. Someday no one will know what the heck a Gundam is.

Speaking of, using your logic I guess Zeta Gundam wasn't as good as everyone thinks it is because that got retold too.

No one understood the ending to the original series

I do, though not at first. Eva really isn't that deep, which is the only point I agree on. It's not that hard to understand so long as you remember that the religious symbolism doesn't mean anything. There are some unanswered questions, yeah, but it's all stuff none of the characters knew anyways. Where did Adam and Lilith come from? Who knows. What's important is that they're here and they cause stuff to happen.

Evangelion was a game changer, however not because of any particular invoation. It's heavy focus on characters' psyches and how being responsible for saving the world would weigh on some one, the metaphysical aspects, the bizarre mecha designs, and the like had been done before, certainly, but none had been so successful. Evangelion proved that stuff like that can be big with the general audience instead of just a niche one and that opened the door for other shows to take a psychological and metaphysical bent. The show deserves credit for that much at least.

[jabman025]

No one understood the ending to the original series

I do, though not at first. Eva really isn't that deep, which is the only point I agree on. It's not that hard to understand so long as you remember that the religious symbolism doesn't mean anything.

Thats your opinion, and thats the whole damn point! You talk to another fan and he/she will say that the religious symbolism is at the heart of understanding it. You talk to yet another fan and he/she will say that the ending can be explained if you look at the pyschology of Shiniji as a person. You talk to yet another fan and they will say the only way to understand it is to ignore it all and focus on Rei and Auska............ and every single time they bring out another incarnation of the story the same questions, the same debates, the same fans start it all over again............and Gainax gets a whole lot of money in the process.

But your right on one point, the reason this show works is that it is remembered by the people who watched it. No matter what they thought of the ending, it stuck with them.

[Destiny_Gundam]

Actually, Anno himself said the religious stuff is only there to look cool. There are many examples of fans putting more thought into something than the original creator. This is one such example.

[hotlimit]

Actually, Anno himself said the religious stuff is only there to look cool. There are many examples of fans putting more thought into something than the original creator. This is one such example.

Yeah, Twilight, Gundam Wing, anything with a outrageous fanfic crowd...

Honestly, if you can't enjoy something by taking it at face value, it must not be that great. Nobody knows what's inside that briefcase in Pulp Fiction, and it doesn't matter because it's still a great movie. You'll find plenty of godawful film students who will over-analyze things like that, and totally miss what the director was actually doing. I don't know why I should base my opinion of something on what someone might have possibly thought about it, versus what was actually shown (and subsequently reworked and jumbled up over and over).

[hawk of endymion]

@ destiny gundam

I have no problem that Eva is a monster of the week super robot show, I just wish people would stop acting like its so much more.

I agree with you it's pretty easy to figure the message: stand up for yourself and don't run away from your problems.

But let's be honest in the west it was a huge cash cow for departed ADV and they treated that way. They were the problem for the most part, but gainex hasn't themselves.

As we speak three more retellings of Eva have been made. I'll admit Gundam is pimped but at least they have new characters and stories.

And GaoGaiGar was awesome and never speak about it in the same sentence as Eva or what i call now Twlight with robots.

Lastly, I would just like to say it is always great to debate with a commentator of your caliber, Jabman could learn a few things from you.

# destroy