Star Wars: The Last Jedi

[Amion]

so i'm not sure how gray a Jedi Luke can really be. and i'm not sure what it means to be a gray Jedi in the new canon anyway.

Probably something about not being a self-righteous emotion-denying angst breeding-ground where rigid doctrine is sacred and consequences are ignored like the actual Jedi order. Seeing as how that la-la-la-covering-my-ears-I-can-do-no-wrong-cause-that's-how-I-was-trained attitude seems to be the primary cause of the Jedi's misdeeds/errors and lets the Sith monopolize the "coping with sentience" market...

Thank you, my words exactly. Here's to hoping they address this. Of course, this gets straight into morality territory, which a good number of people will argue wildly. My hope is that they actually give us in-story moral principles from the Force itself that can shape doctrine. It would please me more to argue about something based off something within a story rather than in real life.

The issue for me is the same Karen Travis had with the Jedi, and apparently she and I are heretics. So whatever. But let's be fair. As far as I care it's all good so long as we don't get silly Force Family mythos expansion, which sadly is more than likely, seeing as how Clone Wars is canon. *Shakes fist at Lucasfilm and Disney, and then sighs*

On another bit... it has been made clear to me that JJ apparently did not have any real answers to the mysteries he put into The Force Awakens, and they have convinced me with their evidence that it was merely style and blatant disregard for substance, citing his inclination for spinning mysteries without real purpose behind them. How in the world did the House of Mouse originally plan to give the entire movie trilogy to this guy? Or is it that this is but mere disgruntled internet hate-bait?

At least I've been thoroughly bolstered by endless praise from these other forums about the new director. Question: anyone here have an opinion on what they think of Rian Johnson? I am by no means a movie buff and have previously no interest or need to critique a movie director... Pardon and pamper my gross ignorance.

[Dark Duel]

Prior to Rogue One, which I thought was excellent, I had never actually heard the name Rian Johnson before, or at least I did not recall it.
However, I have seen two movies he wrote and directed: 2012's Looper and 2008's The Brothers Bloom. And I thought both - especially the latter - were excellent movies, and I would strongly recommend checking both of them out.
So I actually have high hopes that TLJ will be another excellent movie, and the fact that Abrams is co-producing the film should ensure that it flows smoothly from TFA. Johnson, in turn, will similarly be collaborating with his successor, Jurassic World director Colin Trevorrow, on Episode IX.

[Amion]

Many thanks, Duel. I am very relieved to hear I am not the only person in the world who thought Rogue One was excellent, and not some kind of trainwreck with Star Wars attached. It was splendid.

Hmm... I've continued to hear conflicting reports on Rian's collusion with Travorrow. First thing is that he's not directing IX, then he is, then I hear he originally was doing both VIII and IX, then someone got their numerals mixed up, and so on. This is what I get for not digging deeper into official reports...

I have observed miniature implosions of people trying to discuss Jurassic World in a tame fashion without mutating into violent mythological flesh-eaters. Was it good? Then again, since I don't watch movies often, my definition of good is a little rusty... but really, is the fear over Trevorrow justifiable? There are claims he is rather bland...

[Areku]

On another bit... it has been made clear to me that JJ apparently did not have any real answers to the mysteries he put into The Force Awakens, and they have convinced me with their evidence that it was merely style and blatant disregard for substance, citing his inclination for spinning mysteries without real purpose behind them. How in the world did the House of Mouse originally plan to give the entire movie trilogy to this guy? Or is it that this is but mere disgruntled internet hate-bait?

I really enjoyed TFA at first, but during my second viewing (the next day) I came to realize just how shallow and characteristically mystery-box the movie really is. I get the feeling that by the time VIII and IX come around, the general consensus will be much like TPM: that it was primarily liked because it was a long-awaited return of Star Wars to the silver screen but that the movie is completely vapid and disposable outside of a few select scenes/sequences (Maz Kanata's blatant and unnatural teases will age especially poorly). Some of the character moments/banter were... okay, but not on the level of 4-6. BB-8 was super cute, though.

Hopefully VIII and IX will completely upstage VII by giving some substance to the spectacle/nostalgia and actually do something satisfying with VII's insultingly-blatant self-hyping mystery-boxing.

Was it good?

It's a decent collection of sights and sounds to accompany a popcorn binge, but that's about it. Nostalgia-panders to what the original did well/correctly while cranking its tolerable flaws up to full ham/incoherence.

Prior to Rogue One, which I thought was excellent

Many thanks, Duel. I am very relieved to hear I am not the only person in the world who thought Rogue One was excellent, and not some kind of trainwreck with Star Wars attached. It was splendid.

I definitely wouldn't go so far as to call it a trainwreck, but it was also far from excellent. The first hour-ish is a badly-edited mess of no-context location hopping, ham-fisted exposition, insane character motivations/actions/contradictions (Jyn's constant flip-flopping between self-preserving rogue and heroic "paladin" coming across as the most tonally egregious, Saw Gerrara's actions being the most absurd) and errant sideplots (what's with Star Wars and tentacles recently?), but Sweet Christmas was the last 40-ish minutes an exhilarating ride with some well-conveyed stakes and tension (but still not perfect, there were some strange choreography/tactics on display and it spent too much time glorifying improbably-successful self-sacrifice). K-2SO was the one thing that was consistently good (aside from things that are assumed for a Star Wars), but he can't prop up that first hour on his own.

[Zeonista]

he did kinda choke some of Jabba's guards because i guess that was okay or something that one time.

on the other hand he also officially earned his Jedi stripes by refusing to kill his father, throwing down his saber, and telling the Emperor to go eat all of the dicks, so i'm not sure how gray a Jedi Luke can really be. and i'm not sure what it means to be a gray Jedi in the new canon anyway.

I don't want to call it "gray jedi order". It is more a question of "balance of the Force". The Jedi and Sith became extreme forces very dedicated to Light and Dark side dominant pathways respectively. The prequels make it clear that the Jedi Knights hurt themselves by becoming monastic & eschewing the outside world to navel-gaze and pursue spiritual separation of heart and intellect. See how much good that did them? The Sith too erred by presuming ahead of time that good = weak and therefore the best use of Force is to create puppet strings, or wield power like a balrog's whip & flaming sword. Not all use of Light & Dark powers are automatically good/evil, and not all situations are easy to classify. "Uncertain, the future is."

[Amion]

I don't want to call it "gray jedi order". It is more a question of "balance of the Force". The Jedi and Sith became extreme forces very dedicated to Light and Dark side dominant pathways respectively. The prequels make it clear that the Jedi Knights hurt themselves by becoming monastic & eschewing the outside world to navel-gaze and pursue spiritual separation of heart and intellect. See how much good that did them? The Sith too erred by presuming ahead of time that good = weak and therefore the best use of Force is to create puppet strings, or wield power like a balrog's whip & flaming sword. Not all use of Light & Dark powers are automatically good/evil, and not all situations are easy to classify. "Uncertain, the future is."

I see I'm not the only one to study under Kreia and Lord Revan's teachings. But some disturbing fools persist in holding to their ancient religion. They just don't know the power of a Balanced vision.

[ShadowCell]

he did kinda choke some of Jabba's guards because i guess that was okay or something that one time.

on the other hand he also officially earned his Jedi stripes by refusing to kill his father, throwing down his saber, and telling the Emperor to go eat all of the dicks, so i'm not sure how gray a Jedi Luke can really be. and i'm not sure what it means to be a gray Jedi in the new canon anyway.

I don't want to call it "gray jedi order". It is more a question of "balance of the Force". The Jedi and Sith became extreme forces very dedicated to Light and Dark side dominant pathways respectively. The prequels make it clear that the Jedi Knights hurt themselves by becoming monastic & eschewing the outside world to navel-gaze and pursue spiritual separation of heart and intellect. See how much good that did them? The Sith too erred by presuming ahead of time that good = weak and therefore the best use of Force is to create puppet strings, or wield power like a balrog's whip & flaming sword. Not all use of Light & Dark powers are automatically good/evil, and not all situations are easy to classify. "Uncertain, the future is."

sure, but all that does is point out how convoluted and strained the concept of "gray Jedi" was in the old canon. is a gray Jedi someone who doesn't follow all the persnickety rules of the Jedi Order when it's at its most indolent and self-absorbed, or is it someone who tries to walk a relativistic muddle between good and evil, or what? the former is pretty meaningless in an era where the Jedi Order is extinct, and the latter doesn't work very well in a universe with well-defined moral metaphysics--which is why Legends' examples of gray Jedi were either just servants of the light or in denial about their slow turn to the dark side.

anyways, so far as i can tell the "Rey is a gray Jedi" theory mostly seems to be based on the fact that she is wearing gray and Luke is muttering about ending the Jedi and some people really want her to be one, whatever a gray Jedi is gonna be.

[Areku]

someone who doesn't follow all the persnickety rules of the Jedi Order when it's at its most indolent and self-absorbed ... is pretty meaningless in an era where the Jedi Order is extinct

Probably not so meaningless to Luke, who's likely spent the past few decades being lectured by a host of persnickety Force ghosts.

[Zeonista]

First off I would like to salute HISHE for their Rogue One episode. Several potential "good ends" there, all of them nice...but making me appreciate the movie's ruthless nature more. Also, "S'up n00bs."

Amion: Revan-sama is my ultimate sensei. I don't want to call the Jedi Knights foolish for their persistance, since they persisted in being an objective and politically neutral (on the sector/system level) force for justice. (Not peace, justice, and important point that seems to have been forgotten by many, but not Lucas.) However, theJedi Order took things to an extreme, and created an imbalance, and a fatally effective case of tunnel vision. A more balanced perception & use of The Force could create an Order that is still standing in the Light, but at the same time understands the surrounding Darkness. And emotional detachment is good in the courtroom, but when confronting many foes with lightsaber in hand, might a little passion for justice might be a good thing too?

ShadowCell: You bring up a good question. If the Jedi Order as a galactic force is spent, but the Force endures, then is it possible for a successor order to be re-established? The Jedi Knights were created to bring Force users of a certain mindset together and train them to use their abiliies for the greater good, not their own enhancement and advancement. Why can't Master Luke Skywalker start over again on a new path? It is a question that goes beyond knee-jerk fan prejudices.

Areku: I would definitely say that Luke got a good start & grounding with Ben Kenobi and Yoda. But he learned much situational experience concerning the Force from Darth Vader as well. Both sets of lessons ought to be distilled into his teachings. Not moral equivalence, but an understanding of the Dark Side process that is a notable blind spot in other Jedi characters.

[Zeonista]

First off I would like to salute HISHE for their Rogue One episode. Several potential "good ends" there, all of them nice...but making me appreciate the movie's ruthless nature more. Also, "S'up noobs."

Amion: Revan-sama is my ultimate sensei. I don't want to call the Jedi Knights foolish for their persistance, since they persisted in being an objective and politically neutral (on the sector/system level) force for justice. (Not peace, justice, and important point that seems to have been forgotten by many, but not Lucas.) However, theJedi Order took things to an extreme, and created an imbalance, and a fatally effective case of tunnel vision. A more balanced perception & use of The Force could create an Order that is still standing in the Light, but at the same time understands the surrounding Darkness. And emotional detachment is good in the courtroom, but when confronting many foes with lightsaber in hand, might a little passion for justice might be a good thing too?

ShadowCell: You bring up a good question. If the Jedi Order as a galactic force is spent, but the Force endures, then is it possible for a successor order to be re-established? The Jedi Knights were created to bring Force users of a certain mindset together and train them to use their abiliies for the greater good, not their own enhancement and advancement. Why can't Master Luke Skywalker start over again on a new path? It is a question that goes beyond knee-jerk fan prejudices.

Areku: I would definitely say that Luke got a good start & grounding with Ben Kenobi and Yoda. But he learned much situational experience concerning the Force from Darth Vader as well. Both sets of lessons ought to be distilled into his teachings. Not moral equivalence, but an understanding of the Dark Side process that is a notable blind spot in other Jedi characters.

[Amion]

There is also the possibility that Anakin's ghost did not get along well with the people he tried to murder, especially after they insisted he was irredeemable and stuff. And after they watched Luke burn Vader's corpse, something they could all get behind and laugh, commenced immediately after the credits started to furious bickering over Luke's next course of action... there's no telling what that did to him.

[azrael]

There is also the possibility that Anakin's ghost did not get along well with the people he tried to murder, especially after they insisted he was irredeemable and stuff....

I doubt that. I do think that Luke's failed attempt to restart the Jedi put him into depression (hence the line at the end of the teaser about the Jedi ending). Rey comes to him asking to be trained and he initially rejects since he doesn't want to repeat the last disaster but eventually relents.

Maybe Luke did try to restart the order and let his students dabble in the Dark Side, but from that allowed Ben/Kylo Ren be seduced. And then that ended badly.

[Amion]

Sounds to me more like dear Nephew was just a Vader fanboy. The canon book Bloodline indicates Ben didn't know his grandfather was Vader until a few years or so before VII... and that presumably things took a bad turn around that time, maybe. Perhaps VIII will know the answers to the questions JJ didn't.

[tHeWasTeDYouTh]

so i'm not sure how gray a Jedi Luke can really be. and i'm not sure what it means to be a gray Jedi in the new canon anyway.

Probably something about not being a self-righteous emotion-denying angst breeding-ground where rigid doctrine is sacred and consequences are ignored like the actual Jedi order. Seeing as how that la-la-la-covering-my-ears-I-can-do-no-wrong-cause-that's-how-I-was-trained attitude seems to be the primary cause of the Jedi's misdeeds/errors and lets the Sith monopolize the "coping with sentience" market...

idk didn't the Jedi defeat the Sith by following those teachings??? Besides Anakin and a few Jedi most never fell to the dark side and it was the Sith and their plot to create a war and weaken the Jedi from within that finally destroyed them.

[Areku]

idk didn't the Jedi defeat the Sith by following those teachings???

Ah, good ol' "might makes right"...

And define "defeat". My definition doesn't involve allowing a galactic civilization to descend from flawed-republic to planet-sploding empire for a few decades while your own ranks are reduced to a sub-percentile. Considering this "defeat" is carried out by someone who started training at ~4x the max age per Jedi teachings and whose Jedi-ness could be summed up as "alive, somewhat competent at using the Force, not evil, he'll have to do", can you really attribute it to the virtues of the Jedi teachings in their full self-absorbed fussiness?

Besides Anakin and a few Jedi most never fell to the dark side and it was the Sith and their plot to create a war and weaken the Jedi from within that finally destroyed them.

I don't read Star Wars books so correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most modern Sith fallen Jedi/Padawan or trained by the fallen? That's certainly how the films portray things. Regardless, the Sith prevailed largely because of how predictable, simplistic, inflexible and unadaptive the Jedi were. Also, the Order's self-loathing rejectionist teachings/hierarchy alienated its own ranks, and they were in complete denial about how their methods encouraged mental-health/identity issues that eventually led to betrayal.

"There is no try" is great short-term motivation, but framing someone's entire life in rigid black-and-white perspectives does not produce a healthy mentality. Be it the silent decay of individual mental states or the systemic embrittlement of the organization, something's eventually gonna give.

[ShadowCell]

uh, i think you'd better go rewatch the third act of Return of the Jedi there. Luke's not following all the bullet points of Jedi dogma as it's portrayed in the prequels when he defeats the Sith, but he's unquestionably following the Jedi way, and it is by the Jedi way--letting go of his attachments, controlling his passions, doggedly seeking the good in someone everyone else wrote off as irredeemably evil--that he prevails.

[Areku]

uh, i think you'd better go rewatch the third act of Return of the Jedi there. Luke's not following all the bullet points of Jedi dogma as it's portrayed in the prequels when he defeats the Sith, but he's unquestionably following the Jedi way, and it is by the Jedi way--letting go of his attachments, controlling his passions, doggedly seeking the good in someone everyone else wrote off as irredeemably evil--that he prevails.

Luke certainly employs some elements of Jedi training/philosophy that I downplayed for comedic effect, sure. However, you've acknowledged my main point about Jedi dogma, and it isn't only stuff that's portrayed in the prequels that Luke goes against.

In ESB, Yoda and Obi Wan tell Luke in no uncertain terms that he will become an agent of evil if he stops his training to go to Bespin. They also tell him that he will be "dominated" by the Dark Side if he "starts down the dark path", that a Jedi uses the Force "never to attack", that he must be willing to abandon/sacrifice his friends to defeat the Empire, and that "anger, fear, aggression" are the slippery slope toward the Dark Side. Then in RotJ, they tell him that he needs no further training (despite needing to complete training in ESB and having no contact with Yoda/Obi Wan in the interim, as revealed through RotJ dialogue), that he isn't ready for the burden of knowledge about his father (Yoda tries to dismiss direct questions on the matter), repeat the anger-fear-aggression slippery slope, and explicitly say that Luke must kill (not fight, not defeat, kill) his father (not a coy "Vader is a different person 'from a certain point of view'", but Luke's father) or the Emperor wins.

Luke acts against all of this or otherwise proves it wrong.

- He goes to Bespin but doesn't become an agent of evil.
- He taps into the Dark Side on at least one occasion; Palpatine won't shut up about it, he Force Chokes some guards, he says several emotionally manipulative things to Vader on the moon's surface with uncharacteristically cold calculation, and most concretely, the script explicitly states that he was using the Dark Side when he kicked Vader down the stairs. Additionally, the script seems to go out of its way to attribute all three of Yoda's slippery slope words to Luke's actions onboard the Death Star II. Despite this, Luke is never dominated by the Dark Side, and while you could argue that his destiny became dominated by it... name one Jedi whose destiny isn't similarly preoccupied with the Dark Side's influence.
- He goes to meet Vader on the moon's surface specifically to avoid Vader coming to him and hurting his friends, knowingly stepping into the viper's nest in the process.
- Yoda says that Luke wasn't ready for the truth, yet implies (and Obi Wan outright states) that the events on Bespin completed Luke's training.
- The Emperor is eliminated because Luke refuses to kill his father and there's no way killing Vader would've turned out better.

By this point, Luke has ignored or proven wrong nearly half of the stuff that Obi Wan and Yoda say about what it means to be a Jedi during ESB and RotJ. Rather than believing in absolutes and rejecting his feelings, passions and relationships the way he was told to, he prevailed by utilizing them (and even the Dark Side) in reasonable moderation. Just as Palpatine was wrong to tell Luke to let those things control him, Yoda and Obi Wan were wrong to tell him to reject them absolutely.

Also, I think it's worth noting that Yoda and Obi Wan would've had an easier time keeping Luke's hot-bloodedness in check in ESB if they appealed to his emotions rather than thrusting their dogma upon him; they both seemed pretty confident that Han, Leia and co. would pull through just fine without Luke's intervention (Obi Wan saying their deaths weren't foreseen, Yoda referring to "another" as their final hope even though she's the subject of concern), but they just agitated Luke by dispassionately telling him to accept their deaths and Jedi dogma.

[ShadowCell]

well then, that is certainly a, uh, way of seeing things. is Obi-Wan telling me things depend on our points of view or something?

for starters, Yoda and Obi-Wan never tell Luke to reject his feelings and relationships absolutely. in ESB, they tell him he's not ready to face Vader, it's like the most obviously obvious trap in the history of trapdom, and once he's in Vader's clutches he'll just be turned into an agent of darkness, which will render moot everything they've fought for. and so Luke goes to Bespin anyway and it turns out to be the most obviously obvious trap in the history of trapdom, in which Luke proves to be not ready to face Vader, and the friends he went there to rescue end up having to rescue him. and that's the only thing Yoda and Obi-Wan end up being wrong about--that his friends, the people he went there to rescue, would end up rescuing him, because he was so woefully unprepared. otherwise, he was defeated and faced either capture by Vader or death.

so then Luke comes back with his nice new mechanical hand that i guess Yoda politely decides not to ask him about, and they tell him not to absolutely reject his feelings and relationships, but to bury them deep down--which is sensible advice when you're up against the grandmaster of manipulating people through their feelings and relationships. Obi-Wan even praises him when those same feelings and relationships kick in to tell him that Leia is his sister. but more importantly, they have good reason to tell him that, because Luke's feelings and relationships get him into trouble as often as not. it's what led him to run off and get his ass uselessly kicked by Vader in ESB. and by RotJ, he realizes that, which is why he's willing to leave them behind on Endor and confront Vader and the Emperor alone--even when they surely could've used his help. the old Luke would've tried to do both, but Luke the Jedi Knight realizes that this is his battle alone and their battle is down below. he lets go of that which he fears to lose.

and throughout his duel with Vader, it's those feelings and relationships that pull him towards the Dark Side. Vader gets him all ripshit by playing on his concern for Leia. but Luke never "starts down the dark path," and every time he starts to let his anger get the best of him, he calms down and reins it in. his crowning moment of awesome as a Jedi is when he calms down, throws down his saber, and refuses to fight. and there's a reason he looks down in horror at his own hand when he realizes he just tapped into the Dark Side to beat Vader into submission. he controls his passions and refuses to start down the dark path, as Yoda and Obi-Wan told him to do.

and, while we're at it, Yoda and Obi-Wan never tell Luke to kill Vader. defeat him, conquer him, sure. the only reference in the scripts i can find to killing Vader is Luke complaining that he can't do it. that, it seems, is the other big thing Yoda and Obi-Wan turn out to be wrong about--that Vader can be redeemed.

so, Luke dispenses with the trappings of the old Jedi Order, but he relies on the core of the Jedi Code--the most important part--to defeat the Sith. it's the same core around which the dogma of the prequels built up, and it's the dogma and narrow-mindedness that lay the foundation for their collapse. but the beliefs underlying that dogma are still true, which is why that--and not the "no sex! wear sackcloth! don't have friends!" stuff--is what Obi-Wan and Yoda pass on to Luke.

[Amion]

I agree with Areku, glad we're actually more on the same page here. And I didn't know some of that stuff they said about the script. Hmm.

As for Luke not killing Vader, though, I always hated that scene. I'm too Revanish to not be irked by that. Not kill Vader, sure, but never throw down thy weapon while confronting an eager Sith Lord with lightning magic. *facepalms* Just clip it to your belt and be all serene.

But about killing Vader, yes, it is strictly implied "confronting" Vader meant killing him. Luke tells Obi-wan in no uncertain terms that he's not able and won't kill his father, to which Obi-wan just says, "...then the Emperor has already won." Pretty clear what he wanted, he just was going to be Jedi-tip-to around saying it for the kids in the audience. that's actually a thing never to say to children on screen. "Kill 'em" is oh so much worse than "I can't kill 'em" in terms of subliminal suggestion. It's silly, but good parents are rightfully paranoid about this issue. Never know what off remark my turn their little one down the true dark path of psychopathy, after all. I mean, look at the obsession with Imperial tech kids have already! Luke is cool and all, but only one villain got duh cape and stormtrooper minions.

[tHeWasTeDYouTh]

what are the chances the Last Jedi will have the same themes that Empire Strikes back had (sort of like Force Awakens felt like the original movie in the way things got set up) We already have a new at at, new speeder, new rebel base in a deserted planet(hoth was snow and the new planet is desert with red sand>?), new Imperial giant start destroyer (mega class, lol name)........
just want the movie to come out to see if I am right