Vulcans and Ammo Type

[Seraphic]

Let's begin with this diagram of the Zeta Gundam's head. So it appears vulcan guns are multi-barreled machineguns, just like the Vulcan cannons on our modern day aircraft. Cool.

But more onto the point, I have been wondering why I haven't really seen any canon MS that use beam vulcans. I think only one appears in animation, and that is the Gundam Leopard Destroy, but I was hoping to concentrate more in UC.

If the ZZ had a miniature mega cannon in its head, shouldn't it be possible later on to miniaturize beam vulcans for MS? I know a beam vulcan would have extremely limited range, but vulcans are short range anyway. There is also the balance between weapons and armor that we have to observe. By the time of CCA, MS armor is thin to a point where ballistic vulcans are highly effective, so why go through the trouble of developing and installing beam vulcans? Well, beam vulcans could potentially have an inexhaustible ammo supply if they were supported by the MS reactor. And hey, it's a BEAM. It would shred the hell out of anything you target. Could it also be that by that time armor has developed a degree of invulnerability to beam weapons? If that is true, then perhaps the small bolt generated by a beam vulcan gun would just be deflected.

I have also been annoyed by instances where I see pilots using their vulcans but miss because of their targets dodging the thin stream of fire. I was thinking, why not use a buckshot type round? Vulcans are short range guns anyway, so if you're serious about defending yourself at close range, use a shotgun! The recoil might be out of the question to use this type of gun as head vulcans, but are probably better suited mounted on the shoulders, like the shoulder machine-cannons. These days, there is great shotgun technology being developed. They have nearly no recoil, and can even fire on full automatic. Wouldn't that be an extremely useful defense weapon to have on an MS?

Any other ways to improve upon vulcan guns?

[Janx_Dolaris]

The GN-X and Exia both have beam vulcans, but they arent UC.

But i agree with the above. With everything else being beam on some suits, why aren't the head vulcans? Its extra ammo that might never be used.

[Lans]

I don't think even with the span of 13 years from OYW to CCA, people could miniaturize beam vulcan that powerful enough to pierce average MS armor, light and small size that fit MS head, high rate of fire - bursting capability, and regenerate low heat. Plus they must be expensive, but the main problem would be the heat. MS already have problems with excess heat from it's main functions and stuffs, why add more?

On the other hand the standard ballistic vulcan could do all of that. The only problems is the limited ammunitions but hey, who want to use vulcan that much. The standard vulcan is actually pretty strong, Amuro use Gundam's vulcan to shred a Zaku in the first MSG episode, and he does it more often as the show goes on. IMO, it's quite powerful and reliable, so probably that's why they in UC never bother with developing new beam vulcan.

[mcred23]

If the ZZ had a miniature mega cannon in its head, shouldn't it be possible later on to miniaturize beam vulcans for MS?

I'm not so sure about beam vulcans, but fitting small beam guns into the head of a mobile suit probably wouldn't be that hard. Small beam weapons roughly of vulcan size (Or perhaps even smaller) were found on capital ships as early as the UC 0080's, but having beam vulcans is something that UC never really developed.

And hey, it's a BEAM. It would shred the hell out of anything you target.

That's not entirely true, we've seen weak beams before. That could be an issue, that mounting a small enough, but still powerful enough beam gun in the head of most MS becomes problematic.

Could it also be that by that time armor has developed a degree of invulnerability to beam weapons?

No, beams are still going to burn through the armor on an MS, that isn't even an issue (It's due to armor being so useless against beams that we get some of those thinly armored, highly mobile MS we see in CCA, such as the Jegan).

In the end though, it's partly an issue of it ain't being broke, so why bother fixing it. Conventional shell firing vulcans always served their purpose as a last ditch/extreme short range weapon just fine, and while beam firing ones would probably work just as well, perhaps better (Due to the possibility of near limitless ammo), it's just an upgrade (And slight power drain) that really isn't all that necessary of an upgrade.

There is one other thing that comes to my mind, the possibility that mounting such a compact beam weapon in the head might interfere with the sensors and other equipment mounted in the part of the MS. We know that Crossbone Vanguard MS didn't use beam shields since they would interfere with collecting data, perhaps having beam weapons mounted in (And firing from) the head could have caused some similar issues, what with the heat and Minovsky Particles coming from that close to some of the most sensitive parts of a mobile suit.

I was thinking, why not use a buckshot type round?

It probably would work out well, but part of me thinks that a shotgun type weapon may cut down the range even more. Plus, if the weapon is breaking up, I wonder how effective such very small shrapnel might be (While it may prove useful against missiles or something like that, against MS armor, I can't see it being very effective).

The overall thing about vulcans is that they work very well in their intended role. They probably could be improved on, but I honestly can't think of any radical upgrade that would be practical.

[Recon 5]

Moreover, the billions of Vulcan rounds already in stock all over EFF territory would be logistical dead weight if they were suddenly phased out.

[mcred23]

Moreover, the billions of Vulcan rounds already in stock all over EFF territory would be logistical dead weight if they were suddenly phased out.

Not to mention the guns that use them, as the widely used 60mm vulcan would become just a much dead weight, plus the time/cost of replacing them on exsisting units.

[Seraphic]

I wasn't saying we were going to revolutionize the vulcan gun! I was only wondering about the lack of experimentation. Hahaha. =p

Not every MS needs to have the vulcans replaced. I just thought that through the many decades of MS development we'd see a unit with a different type of vulcan gun. But there were none in the animation, strangely enough.

I guess I'm going through the trouble because I really do like vulcans that much. I'd be firing them like crazy and using them every chance I get. I'd even use them inappropriately to confuse the enemy.

I was also wondering about the smaller fragments of a buckshot round losing momentum due to small mass. I was thinking more about the stopping power and the spread pattern of a shotgun rather than the damage it would do to armor. The buckshot would probably need a huge explosive charge behind it to deal a lot of damage. But we're talking about shooting things like Jegans and Dogas here. Maybe their thin armor wouldn't be able to take one of the pellets either. The machine-cannons used on the shoulders seem to always be of larger calibers than vulcan guns, so that would allow for a buckshot with more pellets or pellets with larger mass.

The most efficient combination might be to use regular vulcans in the head and the buckshot rounds for the shoulders. The shotguns won't be quite as flexible, but they're still there to defend you.

One of my favorite ideas is to replace head vulcans with a beam weapon that fired like a GM sniper's long beam rifle. Just fire this intense beam and sweep it across the battlefield, cutting everything in its path. It'd be like anything your MS laid eyes upon would be wiped out. How sick would that be?

Of course, you'd just end up overheating and melting your own head off, haha. o,O

[Wingnut]

I One of my favorite ideas is to replace head vulcans with a beam weapon that fired like a GM sniper's long beam rifle. Just fire this intense beam and sweep it across the battlefield, cutting everything in its path. It'd be like anything your MS laid eyes upon would be wiped out. How sick would that be?

I believe we call that BUSTAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA BEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMU!!!!

[mcred23]

Not every MS needs to have the vulcans replaced. I just thought that through the many decades of MS development we'd see a unit with a different type of vulcan gun. But there were none in the animation, strangely enough.

Yeah, I guess I could see why you'd think that the technology would get improved over the years (Although at the same time, I can easily see why it didn't).

I was thinking more about the stopping power and the spread pattern of a shotgun rather than the damage it would do to armor.

Stopping power and spread pattern really wouldn't mean a thing if they can't hurt the enemy, and for MS, that means damaging the armor.

But we're talking about shooting things like Jegans and Dogas here. Maybe their thin armor wouldn't be able to take one of the pellets either.

Ah, but there in lies part of the problem. Ignoring the Geara Doga (Which has fairly heavy armor and only goes down to vulcans shot by one Amuro Ray), the Jegan purposefully has extremely thin armor to give it better mobility and agility for fighting other MS (Which is the only real role of the most common Jegan types; the basic -89 and the F91 variants), which is why vulcans work so well against them (Of course, simply hitting them is a lot harder).

The machine-cannons used on the shoulders seem to always be of larger calibers than vulcan guns, so that would allow for a buckshot with more pellets or pellets with larger mass.

Of course, machine cannons aren't all that commonly used and for shoulder mounted weapons, we have seen beam guns mounted there so that'd what I'd take over a shotgun-ish weapon.

One of my favorite ideas is to replace head vulcans with a beam weapon that fired like a GM sniper's long beam rifle. Just fire this intense beam and sweep it across the battlefield, cutting everything in its path. It'd be like anything your MS laid eyes upon would be wiped out. How sick would that be?

Yeah, like we'll ever see anything like that.

[MrMarch]

Wow. Anime magic indeed. How the heck is that a 60 mm gun? It's smaller than a 20 mm gun

[azrael]

Not every MS needs to have the vulcans replaced. I just thought that through the many decades of MS development we'd see a unit with a different type of vulcan gun. But there were none in the animation, strangely enough.

There isn't much you can do with a different type of gatling gun. The design has been around since the 1860s. What kind of difference are you looking for?

I was also wondering about the smaller fragments of a buckshot round losing momentum due to small mass. I was thinking more about the stopping power and the spread pattern of a shotgun rather than the damage it would do to armor. The buckshot would probably need a huge explosive charge behind it to deal a lot of damage. ...

I think a re-fire rate on a vulcan kinda makes this fairly pointless.

One of my favorite ideas is to replace head vulcans with a beam weapon that fired like a GM sniper's long beam rifle. Just fire this intense beam and sweep...
Of course, you'd just end up overheating and melting your own head off, haha. o,O

Which is why you don't exactly want a beam gun on your head.

[Gadget]

I think this issue has pop up several times. It could be printing error, like 60nm instead of 60mm.

It's possible to put shotgun ammo in a gatling, but the ammo would take up too much space. With computer targeting, a solid or explosive sluge is better than buckshot.

Personally, I don't think buck shot ammo makes good anti missile defense. If want to put anthing more powerful, it wold be a granade luncher with timed explosion. Like WW2 anti-aircraft flake.

The power of a gun is dependent on the firepower (shell diameter, velocity, impact energy ect...)x rounds per minute. So a weak round like buckshot, with a high rate of fire, is still not good as a slower rate of fire more powerful round.

And ZZ head cannon. I though it left the ZZ comatose after it fired. Why not stick to the TBR rotating sweep?

What I like to see is more beam handguns weapons, like the strike noir. It makes sense in a close combat, but not at melee distance. Beside striking cool pose, the close distance meanse that a less powerful weapon, with more shots (same e-pac storage capacity) could be use. Or at least a MAC-10 type of handheld beam gun.

[Goatee Gundam]

On more of a side note, there is a UC mobile suit with beam vulcans, the Cluster Gundam from Silhouette Formula 91. Anyway, isn't the head of mobile suits already have a lot of room being taken up by cameras and other equipment? I'm actually kinda surprised they can fit any weapons in there at all, let alone not damaging the head itself when the vulcans fire.

[MrMarch]

I think this issue has pop up several times. It could be printing error, like 60nm instead of 60mm.

LOL NanoMeters, huh? That's pretty small. Not much penetrating power I'd guess I seem to remember this topic before as well. Perhaps I even spoke about it. Damn memory...going, going

Seriously, was there any explanation? I mean just looking at the scale of the mechanic, the 60 mm gun is nearly the size of a large rifle. Perhaps it's a drawing mistake. But thinking about it more, it can't be because that mechanic is in scale, given the sizes of the Gundams shown in the anime and the official figures. Very weird!

[Lans]

That's 60 mm vulcan gun. I just checked last night from gundam official. Even the old RGM-79 GM model used the same caliber. For anyone in doubt, check here. On the other hand, looking at the tiny dot where the 60mm vulcan gun should be placed, I also get the same difficulties in believing.

[Gadget]

Unlike humans, the brain (computers) is not located in the head. It's mainly sensor clusters. The main computer could be in the torso. RX78-2 computer is in the core block itself.

And as for the guns, I think with advance material technology, the gun barrels could be shorter and lighter. And as for vibration damage, I think things are more resilent than it is. Current tanks need good shock absorbers. Not because the bumpy ride will damage the equipments, but it will injured the tank personal. And the guns could be mounted on shock absorbers

And as for head mega cannon, the cutway diagram on the ZZ shows the cannon system is not very big. The main power is ducted from the reactors in the body. It's mainly focusing elements, which does not takes up that much space.

My main disbelieve is actually the ammo magerzine. Unless they have very little ammo, like 100 rounds, I really don't know where are the ammo kept.

Of course, ther is the valcan headphones that the MkII uses.

[mcred23]

My main disbelieve is actually the ammo magerzine. Unless they have very little ammo, like 100 rounds, I really don't know where are the ammo kept.

The ammo is kept in the head. IIRC, the guns were shown being loaded in MSG (And maybe even 0083 too) and the big ol' box of ammo was being loaded into the head (And it was a good deal more than 100 rounds per gun).

[Lans]

I don't have problems with the ammo magazine. I've seen some Master Grade booklets picturing a sizable twin cylinders on the MS head housing ammo and the vulcans themselves. The cylinders actually taking up almost all the areas beside the "ear". It seems that the other equipment like the main camera and other sensory equipments doesn't take so much space after all. Note that, I have difficulties about the size of the vulcan-gun-end-barrels, since it's really small for 60mm in comparison with the Zaku standard 120mm machine gun.

On the other hand, how bout the Rick Dias head twin Phalanx? In this case, they use the head section for the 360 panoramic screen and cockpit.

[MrMarch]

It's not the size of the gun that worries me, it's the diameter of the barrels. 60mm is 60mm, it's a constant measurement; there's no way to shrink the round itself, regardless of the technology used. Like I said, there's simply no way those cannons can be using 60 mm barrels looking at the picture. They are far too small to even fit such a round. The Gundam head cannons are small even for the barrel diameters on a 20mm cannon, but I could at least accept it as a 20mm barrel. For example, here is the M61 20mm Vulcan gun used in modern fighters. Notice the pictures showing the size of the barrels and the pictures showing the size of the 20 mm round compared to the mechanic holding the rounds.

This has to be an anime magic thing.

As far as ammunition, I think the Gundam heads could hold a bit. There wouldn't be room for lots of ammo, but 200-300 rounds each is plausible. There should be more than enough room inside the head for a couple drums with few hundred rounds each.

[Gadget]

The ammo is kept in the head. IIRC, the guns were shown being loaded in MSG (And maybe even 0083 too) and the big ol' box of ammo was being loaded into the head (And it was a good deal more than 100 rounds per gun).

I know that from of Beecraft cutway pictures. But in the real world, the GAU-8 Avenger 30mm cannon of the A-10, magarzine is about the same size as a Volkswagen Beetle. And the A-10 holds about 1,150 rounds. Given that each Valcun fires about 500 rounds each, it's just hard to picture a magazine, holding 60mm shells, containing 500 rounds, fit into a MS head. (ZZ holds 400 rounds. Zeta holds 600 rounds)

And what about S-Gundam? 4 x 60mm fire linked Valcun?