OYW MS Technology?

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domtropen
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Post by domtropen » Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:49 pm

IIRC in Movie III from a very few grunt fighting grunt scenes there is only one scene with GM killing Rickdom after the Rickdom disables a ship's turret. In the pre-solar system scene a Rickdom successfully repel GM's attack and force GM to back off [either with heat rod or bazooka swing but I can't remember]. I think GM and Rickdom is pretty evenly matched, each with some advantages and disadvantages over the other.

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Post by Ork_dreadnought » Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:13 pm

I've ran though the whole GM issue several times in my head, and something I keep coming back to is how the MS is clearly designed as an MS killer, whereas the Zaku and Dom series aren't. When the Zaku was designed, Federation MS were years away, and basically unheard of when the Dom was in the planning stage. Look at what the Dom is aimed with as standard, a big, anti-ship bazooka. These obviously are good at destroying MS, but they are unweildly and limited in ammunition. The GM's beam spray gun is not only a smaller weapon, and thus easier to aim, its still in the same order of lethality of a Bazooka. Factor in the beam saber (which outclassed everything short of a heat rod), the sheild, and the production run, and the GM simply overpowers anything that doesn't have true beam weapons itself. You have give the Zaku credit for design flexibility and pilot quality, but its definately at a disadvantage when the GM comes into the scene. The Dom is a step up, but by the time its in production, the nature of the war has changed.
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Post by toysdream » Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:58 pm

We've had a couple of threads about this before, but on the whole the Dom seems to have been designed as an anti-ship/anti-base attack machine. The fact that it carries a bazooka (a popular anti-ship weapon) as standard armament, and that it has no shield, definitely support this idea.

The GM, on the other hand, is intended not just for anti-mobile suit combat, but for mass battles against enemy mobile suits. Given that it's specialized for this purpose, it's not surprising we see several scenes of GMs defeating Rick Doms in the original series and movies, just as we several instances of Rick Doms (but not GMs) taking out enemy ships.

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Post by Gelgoog Jager » Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:47 pm

The issue of a lack of shield made me wonder, just how effective is the Zaku shield, both the shoulder version and the handheld version that both Zakus and other Zeon MS use? Why is it not used more often?

The only animated handheld shield I recall at the moment is the Gelgoog Marine, but I have seen from time to time both Doms and Zakus using them (mainly in games I must admit). While not meant to block beams, the Zaku shield's construction seems to be enough to endure at least one beam shot:

In Ecole du Ciel (is it considered canon?), a regular MS-06F is seen blocking a beam shot with it's shoulder shield, although I don't quite recall if the shield was destroyed in the process, but I'm pretty sure that the rest of the Zaku was intact. this would mean that Zeon MS have available a shield that can block beams.

A similar event occurs in Zeta, when the AEUG is leaving Jaburo. A Hizack blocks a beam with it's shield, and although the shield is knocked out, the MS is not damaged.

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Post by His Divine Shadow » Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:50 pm

On that inference, Mark, would it then not be logical to presume that Zeon sent the Black Tri-Stars' Doms not to take down Amuro and the Gundam, but instead to knock out White Base, while pinning their hopes on Gaia, Mash, and Ortega's pure piloting skill to negate the Gundam's obvious anti-MS role?
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Post by toysdream » Fri Mar 14, 2008 8:44 pm

Gelgoog Jäger wrote:The only animated handheld shield I recall at the moment is the Gelgoog Marine
I assume you're excluding larger shields like those of the Gouf and standard Gelgoog, right? The regular Zaku shoulder shield never struck me as particularly effective, but its flat surface does allow you to strap weapons onto it, so perhaps it's more of a multipurpose device.

His Divine Shadow wrote:On that inference, Mark, would it then not be logical to presume that Zeon sent the Black Tri-Stars' Doms not to take down Amuro and the Gundam, but instead to knock out White Base, while pinning their hopes on Gaia, Mash, and Ortega's pure piloting skill to negate the Gundam's obvious anti-MS role?
Interesting idea! It's possible that these were just the best machines that were available at the time, not to mention that they allowed the Tri-Stars to use their trademark attack maneuver. But then again, the Tri-Stars made that maneuver famous by using it against enemy ships, so maybe that's why they were sent after the White Base in the first place.

And of course, it was a Rick Dom that finished off the White Base in the end. Thus were the Tri-Stars avenged!

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Post by HalfDemonInuyasha » Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:44 pm

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if the Tri-Stars used their Jet-Stream Attack against earlier deployments of GMs and such...though video game clips aren't reliable, they do show them in their Zaku II R-1A High Mobility Types taking out a GM. First one firing a bazooka, which it dodges. Then the second one slashes with its heat hawk, which the GM also dodges. Finally, the third one pummels it with its machine gun. GM is taken down.

So I guess Zeon also expected the same tactic to work on the Gundam. Problem is that I doubt Zeon ever expected Amuro to be a Newtype capable of making lightning fast reactions in response to situations, as he had shown by very narrowly dodging their strikes and even breaking through their Jet-Stream Attack.
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Post by chainsandguns » Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:41 pm

Albireo_818 wrote:I really don't think any video games did any good for "Cannon Fodder" Mecha, especially DW Gundam. They were made too easy to destroy and presented as nothing more than a small burden to the player.
Well Dynasty Warriors over-glorifies its characters and makes them way stronger than the actual legends they're based on, so the Zaku and the GM seems more like the Leo. Any one with any experience when it comes to DW would definitely wouldn't use DW Gundam as a base to figure the battle abilities of a GM or any other "Cannon Fodder" Mecha.

Also, while we're on the subject, another thing that could have started the myth about GM's being weak, is possibly people who have only seen Gundam Wing mistaking GM's for Leo.
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Post by Recon 5 » Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:13 am

I think how well a MS does depends on its pilot. I mean, there's obviously a reason why the designated 'aces' are different from your regular cannon fodder, right? In MS IGLOO there was this scene of Balls (thats right) wreaking havoc during a Zaku drop and they were literally flying circles around their humanoid opponents. If Balls can do so well against Zakus, whats to stop Zakus from doing just as well against GMs under the right circumstances?
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Post by HalfDemonInuyasha » Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:17 am

Well, the Ball has a slight advantage over the Zaku in that its smaller size makes it a slightly harder target to hit. It also has greater acceleration, IIRC, thus allowing it to move quickly faster for quick bursts to dodge or move from place to place.
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Post by Draco Starcloud » Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:36 am

As I've heard, those Balls also had the advantage of being space-use. Appearantly the Zakus in that scene were ground-use models that had been launched in a desperate defense.
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Post by bluemax151 » Sat Mar 15, 2008 4:11 am

Gelgoog Jäger wrote:The only animated handheld shield I recall at the moment is the Gelgoog Marine, but I have seen from time to time both Doms and Zakus using them (mainly in games I must admit). While not meant to block beams, the Zaku shield's construction seems to be enough to endure at least one beam shot:
Well the models, MSIA and games have retroactively added the Zaku II shoulder shield hand held version into the OYW. It may not be "animated cannon" but it's not really a far stretch and it should be just about as durable as the RGM-79[G]/RX-79[G] shield based on it's size.
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Post by domtropen » Sat Mar 15, 2008 8:10 am

Recon 5 wrote:I think how well a MS does depends on its pilot. I mean, there's obviously a reason why the designated 'aces' are different from your regular cannon fodder, right? In MS IGLOO there was this scene of Balls (thats right) wreaking havoc during a Zaku drop and they were literally flying circles around their humanoid opponents. If Balls can do so well against Zakus, whats to stop Zakus from doing just as well against GMs under the right circumstances?
IIRC in Igloo those HMVs are going up from Earth running away from Odessa, and Zakus in there are J-type with no equipments for space use, so they perform about the same as GP-01 before refit or worse.

The modified shoulder shield often has spikes on it, so it doubles as punching or tackling weapon. In manga such as the Origin the outer surface of shoulder shield can be equipped with missile launchers, and in models/figures the inner side can store extra magazines for machine gun, and the outside can be used to attach strum fausts or bazookas.

Though design as anti ship/base MS Rickdom itself doesn't seem to fare as badly as often stated against GMs. Most of the time they are destroyed in anime are against Gundam after Amuro develops his newtype ability. I do not have access to TV series but IIRC in Movie III there is only 2 scenes for confirmed GM vs Rickdom as stated earlier. This is not to say that Rickdom is good at fighting other MS but it seems not to be sitting duck either.

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Post by Lans » Sat Mar 15, 2008 8:56 am

In 0083 Stardust Memory, two Doms with a Zamel and sub artillery support was able to raid Federation Torrington base. Although the base was taken by surprise, we can still see how the Dom fares against the GM.

I don't think Rickdom would fare a lot worse against the GM in the space environment. The series also show the scene when Karius' and other Rickdoms fought against GMs just before Gato zeroed Konpeitoh with GP02.

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Post by Oruma » Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:26 am

domtropen wrote:The modified shoulder shield often has spikes on it, so it doubles as punching or tackling weapon. In manga such as the Origin the outer surface of shoulder shield can be equipped with missile launchers, and in models/figures the inner side can store extra magazines for machine gun, and the outside can be used to attach strum fausts or bazookas.
those were spare bazooka ammo clips, not missile launchers :)
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Post by mcred23 » Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:49 am

domtropen wrote:IIRC in Igloo those HMVs are going up from Earth running away from Odessa, and Zakus in there are J-type with no equipments for space use, so they perform about the same as GP-01 before refit or worse.
You (And Draco, who said it a few posts earlier) are correct. The Zaku's we see coming from the HLV's were either J-types or configured for ground combat. The comparison to the GP01 is perfect, as they were in the exact same situation, which is why the Ball units were able to rampage right through them.
lans* wrote:I don't think Rickdom would fare a lot worse against the GM in the space environment. The series also show the scene when Karius' and other Rickdoms fought against GMs just before Gato zeroed Konpeitoh with GP02.
0083 is very different from MSG, as it involves the Rick Dom II (Which is a good deal better than the original Rick Dom) and some highly experianced Zeon pilots (Like Karius, who survived the OYW) going up against less experianced EFSF pilots (Who, unlike the Zeon pilots, probably had seen little to no real combat before, let alone against some skilled pilots like the Delaz Fleet had).
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Post by HalfDemonInuyasha » Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:38 pm

Yep, not to mention the Dom has a clear advantage over a GM when it comes to ground combat because of their hovering capabilities while the normal GMs, like the Zaku and Gouf, are stuck with moving on foot. This obviously allows the Dom to, literally, circle the GMs effortlessly while pounding them with heavy bazookas. It also allows the Dom to, as shown in 0083, be able to quickly take enemy units by surprise with its speed by allowing them to move in before the enemy realizes they're there and make several quick strikes before the enemy can retaliate effectively.

The only GM type(s) capable of really fighting the Dom equally being the Armored GM or if you have good enough pilots like Yuu Kajima with his Cold Climate Type GM. The GM Sniper Custom and GM Sniper II probably could with their upgraded performance levels too.

Space is an entirely different story than ground combat. Unlike ground combat, the GMs are not inhibited by gravity so despite the Rick Dom being able to burst in quickly, AMBAC systems, total 360 degree environments (usually), and much faster movement allows the GM to respond much better to an incoming Rick Dom attack where simple straight charges aren't nearly as effective as they were on the ground.

Also, as mentioned, 0083 had them using Rick Dom IIs (albeit slightly toned down from lack of parts and equipment) + experienced OYW pilots. The Federation was still building up its forces from their losses in the OYW, which would include pilots as well so despite the GM Kai having higher performance, they were being taken down by Zaku II F2 Types. Basically a reverse of the Battle of A Baoa Qu where green Zeon pilots in Gelgoogs were being taken down by experienced Federation pilots in normal GMs.
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Post by domtropen » Sat Mar 15, 2008 2:54 pm

Oruma wrote:those were spare bazooka ammo clips, not missile launchers :)
oops...

For fast Zakus in Igloo IIRC the 1st episode shows the agility of space Zakus.

As stated earlier Rickdom's primary job is sinking enemy strongholds and ships. It is not expected to try charging at GM or keep dogfighting GM to the end. Despite its slower reaction time in the stat in the Movie III when the Rickdom sees GM charging in it is capable of parrying the attack [IIRC a slash] and return the attack to repel the GM. Still Rickdom should escape after chasing GM away since prolonged dogfight would be GM's stronger point. A Rickdom should not wasting its time and bazooka rounds on a GM but should break through and hit the ship, leaving the dogfight to other MS like slower speed but more agile Zakus and later Gelgoogs.

In the other scene GM swoops in and slash Rickdom that is busy destroying the turret, so Rickdom that is caught offguard would be dead, but other MSs without sufficiently quick pilot would end up the same though.

Off topic but Whitebase's MS team seems kinda strange if not without exceptional pilots. The Whitebase team has only one anti-MS MS, and two support MSs and two space fighters. Space fighters, even with powerful weapons, are supposed to be less agile than MS in general. On the other hand other Pegasus's MS team usually have 2-4 MS capable of anti-MS role and 2-3 support MS. Is the strange composition of Whitebase MS team make Zeon officers thinking that just using large number of Rickdoms should be enough to finish off Whitebase? It is also strange that MS design mostly for clost combat ends up sinking more ships than the rest of the MS team...

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Post by Gadget » Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:14 am

Dendrobium Stamen wrote:[

I've never had cause to use this phrase before, so bear with me, but: "It's not the size, mate, it's how you use it." In other words, even though the classic ZMP-50D and MMP-78 Zaku rifles were 120mm guns, firing bullets over an inch wider than the 90mm guns common to the GM series, that doesn't make them better. The key thing tends to be muzzle velocity, and the lighter shell of the 90mm gun means the shell can be faster than its 120mm counterpart, giving it more kinetic penetrating power, allowing it to punch through MS armour more easily. On a smaller scale, this is why an assault rifle fires 5.56mm bullets while a pistol fires 9mm; the rifle can spit shells faster, making it a more effective automatic weapon.
I making a few assumtions. Bigger diameter means more powerful slugs. The conversion to a smaller diamter rounds is always controversial. Some people cry foul when NATO standerdise their ammo from 7.62 to 5.56. But in many seniros, a squad with 5.56 rifles beat another squad with 7.62 rounds. The reason is not how powerful the rounds are, but how much firepower can a squad can deliver. 5.56. As smaller rounds, could put in more slugs than a 7.62 squad, they could outshoot the 7.62 squad.

Another problem is that the argument is a lighter round is more powerful. It true that a .44 Magnum is more poerful than a .45 AC. The .50 Action Express is only marginally mpre powerful than the .454 Casull. If you read bluemax151 link, it would explain a lot on the science of guns.

Another assumtion we are not making is that in the real world, most tank mounted guns are APFSDS. The bigger the diamter, the more powerful the round. On the other hand, I always get the impression that the slugs use in the OYW is more like solid jacked rounds.

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Post by Random Zaku Pilot » Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:45 am

Well for good views on GM vs Zaku watch some Igloo A Boa Qu AMV's or episode 6 when they show Random Zaku's and etc. fight. The GM beats the Zaku in everything beside the choices in what Gun I should use today. I mean all Zeonic MS weapons could be used between any MS between 05-14 beside the beam rifle(Zaku I, Zaku II, Gouf, Dom or Rick Dom, and Gelgoog).

But its all about whats available and your squad role the way your equipped. Cause I doubt its very hard to add a handle onto a Gouf shield for your Zaku or Dom. Also if a MS-05 Zaku I can use a 360mm Giant bazooka pretty sure your Zaku II can use one. So weapons is all about your unit role or individual role.

If your a basic Grunt you get a 90mm or 120mm MG Zaku II, Explosive any Bazooka on base(Rakaten sp?, 360mm, Zaku Bazooka, or Panzers), Sniper 90mm or 120mm AR. But I think a Zaku can use any weapon or equipment as long as its not a beam rifle.

But it all depends on the situation look at large scale confusing battles where its easy to lose bearings like Solomon and A Boa Qu. Unlike Odessa was less confusing so the Federation won by superior mobile suits, tactics, and numbers. Where Solomon and A Boa Qu looked like it was nothing but a spamfest in where you shoot in every direction and you going to get at least five kills before the other guy who did the same kills you.

Now if its like a small scale encounter such as a Recon unit of GMs running into a Zaku Patrol in some place, its obvious the GM will win due to its using beam weapons and its over all performance definitely in space. But if it comes down to who has the better tactics and pilots well no one can really answer that since there is no actual answer to that one.

P.S. The only Zaku that can kick a GM ass is the MS-06FZ Zaku II Kai statistically speaking anyways and they were produced in small numbers :P
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