OYW MS Technology?

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megatrons2nd
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OYW MS Technology?

Post by megatrons2nd » Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:06 pm

I always thought that the GM was a better MS than a Zaku II. Recent information I have read seem to indicate otherwise.

How do they compare to one another?
Which is more manueverable, stable, faster, etc...?

How do the various weapons compare to one another?
What are the damage, armor piercing, and other capabilities of each?

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Post by Jak Crow » Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:23 pm

GMs were supposed to be more advanced than the Zaku II, especially with the GM having newer tech like beam weapons to begin with, and according to the mahq entry, the GMs turned the tide of the war. Though the GM, and later the Jegan always seemed to be presented as better canon fodder since Zeon pilots were supposed to be better than the EF pilots.

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Re: OYW MS Technology?

Post by mcred23 » Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:30 pm

megatrons2nd wrote:I always thought that the GM was a better MS than a Zaku II. Recent information I have read seem to indicate otherwise.
Your information is either wrong or very misleading.

The basic RGM-79 GM is better than the basic MS-06F/J Zaku II in pretty much every way; speed, maneuverablity, weight, reactor, sensors, ground running speed, pretty much every stat listed in their profiles, which is to be expected seeing how the GM was more or less ment to kick the crap out of Zaku II's.

As for weapons, the GM usually has the advantage. It's basic weapon, the beam spray gun, is more powerful than any weapon the Zaku II would commonly field (Particularly the Zaku's basic weapon, the ZMP-50D 120mm machine gun), although it's ammo is somewhat more limited and it's range isn't as great. As for less commonly used weapons, thats more of a tie, as both have good and fairly comparable, if not as heavily used weapons (The Zaku has the 280mm bazooka and the very good MMP-80 90mm machine gun, while the GM has a pretty good 90mm machine gun of it's own and assorted bazookas and other weapons that they use).
Jak Crow wrote:Though the GM, and later the Jegan always seemed to be presented as better canon fodder since Zeon pilots were supposed to be better than the EF pilots.
Not really, at least in the case of the OYW. By the time the GM came out, Zeon was struggling to get trained pilots into combat, while GM pilots had the benefit of the learning computer data from the Gundam (As well as pretty good training of their own) to give them a big edge (Which is partly why GM pilots did so well against Zeon pilots during the latter battles of the war).
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Post by MrMarch » Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:08 pm

I know the RGM-79's thrust to weight ration is 1.35 while the MS-06F Zaku II is only 0.74, so the GM definitely has a significant advantage there.

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Post by toysdream » Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:38 pm

MrMarch wrote:I know the RGM-79's thrust to weight ration is 1.35 while the MS-06F Zaku II is only 0.74, so the GM definitely has a significant advantage there.
According to the current official specs, the GM's thrust to weight ratio is just under 1.0 (its thrust is slightly less than its full weight). The official specs don't really correspond very well to what we see in the animation, but it does seem pretty clear that the GM is superior to the Zaku. Judging from the animated battles, it seems to be roughly an even match for the Rick Dom.

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Post by HalfDemonInuyasha » Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:42 pm

Yep, not to mention the GM's Titanium Alloy armor gives better general protection compared to the Super-High Tensile Steel of the Zaku.

And it's not surprising that a GM can take on a Rick Dom either (at least in space). In space, it's pretty much just a moving gun turrent, more or less, and relied more on its thick armor for protection rather than evasion, which the GM would most likely be better at as well as being more nimble with its thinner, more humanoid shape similar to the Gundam. This also allows it to be much better at general close-range combat. The Dom and Rick Dom mostly just fly straight in and cut through with their heat sabers and keep going. The GM can parry those strikes and counterattack with other moves instead of relying on such a straight out, simple, maneuver.
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Post by Recon 5 » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:20 pm

This thread is about GMs and Zaku IIs. Lets not bring more advanced designs from either side into the picture.

One possible reason for the surprisingly good (although without significant impact) performance of Zeon pilots (on- screen at least) towards the end of the war was that even their newbies were extremely desperate. The Feddie greens were probably getting comfortable (maybe even complacent) with their superior suits and greater numbers, and so they would be more open to surprises. "Hey, boys, that Zaku looks lonely, lets play with it!" tends to leave you vulnerable to ambushes by his buddies, even if all in all your squad has thrice as many suits as your enemy. Look at the sorry case of the GMs vs Zudahs in MS IGLOO.
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Post by MrMarch » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:28 pm

toysdream wrote:
MrMarch wrote:I know the RGM-79's thrust to weight ration is 1.35 while the MS-06F Zaku II is only 0.74, so the GM definitely has a significant advantage there.
According to the current official specs, the GM's thrust to weight ratio is just under 1.0 (its thrust is slightly less than its full weight). The official specs don't really correspond very well to what we see in the animation, but it does seem pretty clear that the GM is superior to the Zaku. Judging from the animated battles, it seems to be roughly an even match for the Rick Dom.

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Oh, I see. The stats use maximum gross weight to calculate thrust to weight ratios. It comes out to 0.94 for the GM and 0.59 for the Zaku II. Same result, different variables :)

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Post by fieal » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:57 pm

I think the shield gave the GM a major advantage over the Zaku. The carried shield gave a near full upper body protection without hindering GM's gun arm. Kind of like a Tactical Shield used by SWAT team, in fact the GM is exactly like one of those guy, a pistol and a shield.

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Post by HalfDemonInuyasha » Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:11 am

fieal wrote:I think the shield gave the GM a major advantage over the Zaku. The carried shield gave a near full upper body protection without hindering GM's gun arm. Kind of like a Tactical Shield used by SWAT team, in fact the GM is exactly like one of those guy, a pistol and a shield.
Just to add to this and not meaning to go off-topic, but I always did think that the RGM-79SP GM Sniper II looked a lot like a police officer or Special Forces-type of MS. Anyways, the shield does provide much better protection and, unlike the Zaku II's shoulder shield, if it becomes too damaged or a burden, the GM can simply toss it away. There's also the smaller GM shields that can act as punching weapons as well. Mostly the ground GMs/Gundams had them.
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Re: reply

Post by Commissar Bright Noa » Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:16 am

HalfDemonInuyasha wrote:
fieal wrote:I think the shield gave the GM a major advantage over the Zaku. The carried shield gave a near full upper body protection without hindering GM's gun arm. Kind of like a Tactical Shield used by SWAT team, in fact the GM is exactly like one of those guy, a pistol and a shield.
Just to add to this and not meaning to go off-topic, but I always did think that the RGM-79SP GM Sniper II looked a lot like a police officer or Special Forces-type of MS. Anyways, the shield does provide much better protection and, unlike the Zaku II's shoulder shield, if it becomes too damaged or a burden, the GM can simply toss it away. There's also the smaller GM shields that can act as punching weapons as well. Mostly the ground GMs/Gundams had them.
Those small ground type shields are about useless, they don't cover nearly enough to be used other than quick cockpit shielding, like in Blue Destiny only cockpit, not head.

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Post by J-Lead » Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:53 am

Commissar Bright Noa wrote:Those small ground type shields are about useless, they don't cover nearly enough to be used other than quick cockpit shielding, like in Blue Destiny only cockpit, not head.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that they are useless, just that they have a different purpose than the larger shields. The small ramming shield fielded by the [G] series is actually quite effective in a cramped in jungle/urban environment, as they allow for a much wider range of motion compared to the large and bulky shield fielded by the RX-78-2 and later the RGM-79. Their small size also allows for the left arm brandishing the shield to steady the weapon held in the right hand much more effectively than the large shield, and, again, does not hinder movement in this case. Add this to the fact that they make for perfect punching tools as well as provide adequate protection for the most important part fo the mobile suit, the torso, and the [G] series shield makes for a perfectly useful piece of equipment.
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Post by Goatee Gundam » Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:14 am

I can not seem to understand why the GM and all the variants seem to have such a horrible reputation, they have a decent performance level. Statwise, however iffy the stats are, have the GM outclassing both the Gelgoog and the Gundam in Acceleration. The only time I can recall GM's doing poorly is against the Kampfer in 0080. Is it because of their portrayals in video games?

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Post by Albireo_818 » Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:56 am

I really don't think any video games did any good for "Cannon Fodder" Mecha, especially DW Gundam. They were made too easy to destroy and presented as nothing more than a small burden to the player.
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Post by mcred23 » Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:25 am

There is also the myth that the GM is a very poor machine, but as we've pointed out in this (and other) threads, it's actually very good and overall better that a lot of the machines Zeon sent against it (Such as it's two main enemies, the Zaku II and Rick Dom). Their seemingly poor showing in a few battles, such as with the Kampfer, doesn't help (Although their performance can be easily explained in many cases case, including the battle with the Kampfer). There are a lot of other reasons, but we really don't need to go into them in this thread.
fieal wrote:I think the shield gave the GM a major advantage over the Zaku. The carried shield gave a near full upper body protection without hindering GM's gun arm. Kind of like a Tactical Shield used by SWAT team, in fact the GM is exactly like one of those guy, a pistol and a shield.
Yeah, the shield was a major factor. The biggest help it provides is the shield is very effective against those 120mm machine gun rounds that most Zaku II's will be armed with (Which further goes to show the GM was really ment to beat down the older MS-06F). And while it wasn't as effective against bigger weapons (Particularly the Rick Dom's main weapon, the 360mm giant bazooka), it could still absorb or reduce some damage and hold off a shot or two, which is always helpful.
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Post by megatrons2nd » Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:17 pm

Could the armor be comprable considering the GM mounts a thinner skin than the Zaku?

The 90mm Machine gun is better than the 120mm Machine gun?

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Post by Dendrobium Stamen » Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:23 pm

megatrons2nd wrote:The 90mm Machine gun is better than the 120mm Machine gun?
I've never had cause to use this phrase before, so bear with me, but: "It's not the size, mate, it's how you use it." In other words, even though the classic ZMP-50D and MMP-78 Zaku rifles were 120mm guns, firing bullets over an inch wider than the 90mm guns common to the GM series, that doesn't make them better. The key thing tends to be muzzle velocity, and the lighter shell of the 90mm gun means the shell can be faster than its 120mm counterpart, giving it more kinetic penetrating power, allowing it to punch through MS armour more easily. On a smaller scale, this is why an assault rifle fires 5.56mm bullets while a pistol fires 9mm; the rifle can spit shells faster, making it a more effective automatic weapon.
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Post by toysdream » Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:26 pm

megatrons2nd wrote:Could the armor be comprable considering the GM mounts a thinner skin than the Zaku?
The Zaku has steel armor, while the GM uses titanium alloy, which is lighter and stronger. The difference in materials probably cancels out the difference in bulk, and neither of them can withstand beam weapons or machine gun fire, so it doesn't really matter anyway.

As for the common fan idea that heavier automatically equals tougher, I think it probably comes from playing too much Battletech. :-)
The 90mm Machine gun is better than the 120mm Machine gun?
Or comparable, at any rate. It has a higher muzzle velocity and thus better penetrating power; as with the armor comparison, this probably makes up for the smaller shell, and the two types of machine gun seem to be more or less comparable.

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Post by fieal » Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:42 pm

The 90mm bullpup Machine gun used by the Federation seems to have longer barrel than the Zaku 120mm rifles. Its a bullpup design afterall so the barrel runs along nearly the entire gun. Thus Longer range and more accurate.

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Post by bluemax151 » Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:13 am

toysdream wrote: As for the common fan idea that heavier automatically equals tougher, I think it probably comes from playing too much Battletech. :-)
Leave it to Battletech to make a mech's total armor capacity directly proportional to it's wet weight.


As for the whole 90mm vs 100mm/120mm, it's pretty hard to say much about it. While it is true Zeon moves to the 90mm for higher velocity later in the war we know virtually nothing else about the loads other than a dimension or even the weapons that fire them for that matter.

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