Why are Zaku Shields...

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Hiryu02
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Why are Zaku Shields...

Post by Hiryu02 » Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:45 am

... mounted on the same arm they use to carry their gun? One would think that from an efficiency standpoint that mounting the shield on the left shoulder while aiming the gun with the right arm would be better.

One could aim/fire with the right arm while keeping the left side with the shield turned more towards the enemy allowing for more protection and exposing less body surface to enemy fire.

Strange design choice, eh?

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Post by CYNICISM AT IT'S BEST » Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:00 am

not really, if you think about it, it gives your weapon arm cover from enemy fire, making it harder to destroy the gun you're holding, unless it's a zooka, then that's pretty much negated, and really, with the way the Zaku was built I'm sure you could get the armor layout switched around.

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Post by J-Lead » Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:09 am

I could have sworn we've had this topic before, or at least covered it in detail in a given topic. Time for a search...

EDIT: Found it. May not be the same topic, but the discussion shifted to the Zaku shield pretty quickly. Anyway, I hope this helps.
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Post by ZeonfromHell » Sat Mar 01, 2008 5:31 pm

The thing is, though, that there really weren't any Feddie weapons that were really good for taking out mobilesuits when the Zaku II was designed and built. It only needed protection from rudimentary shell-firing weapons and not true anti-mobilesuit weapons. Plus, accuracy wasn't required with a 120mm sub-machine gun; it was designed to be a close-range weapon.
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Post by His Divine Shadow » Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:33 pm

The logic behind Zaku II's design has always been a little flimsy, ie - why is there a shoulder-mounted ram for body checking when there isn't a Fed suit design in existence to be body checked? In the case of the right shoulder shield, it seems purely reactive to the presence of the shoulder ram on the left side. Zaku II's left arm seems to be there for only two reasons: the shoulder ram, and stability for the burst-firing MMP-78 via the side handle. The right arm (I guess the Zaku II was never meant for ambidexterity or southpaws) is the all-important one, too necessary for the purpose of wielding the primary weapon. If a chance shot were to take the arm, the MMP-78 would essentially become useless.

Ties in nicely with ZfH's point about the only dangers present being conventional AT shell and missile weaponry, whose ultimate purpose may not have been anti-MS, but whose capability to damage such could not be overlooked considering the "eggs in one basket" single firing arm design of Zaku II.
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Post by infernoe99 » Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:58 pm

i think zaku 2 was built before the first fedaration gundam was i could be wrong though

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Post by CYNICISM AT IT'S BEST » Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:02 am

Yeah it was as it was only the second combat mobile suit model ever built.

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Post by infernoe99 » Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:08 am

so wouldnt that mean they put it on there to protect it from getting hit in the armor like the shoulders on all gundams??

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Post by mcred23 » Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:13 am

infernoe99 wrote:so wouldnt that mean they put it on there to protect it from getting hit in the armor like the shoulders on all gundams??
Not to "protect it from getting hit in the armor" (The meaning of which I'm unsure of it), but to protect the Zaku's right arm (Which as noted already, it the arm that almost always holds the Zaku's main weapon, be it a 120mm machine gun or a bazooka or whatever).
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Post by infernoe99 » Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:03 am

no i mean like the join betwwen the arm and the main body beacaus almost all mobile suits have a cover over it like if any one has play gundam crossfire ur arm can get shot off but usally your should piece does first

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Post by ScornMandark » Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:50 am

Most gundam do indeed have shoulder armor to protect the underlying joint. And, as was stated earlier in the thread, the Zaku shield is there to protect the arm (which would include the shoulder).
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Post by sushicake » Sun Mar 09, 2008 2:45 am

ZeonfromHell wrote:The thing is, though, that there really weren't any Feddie weapons that were really good for taking out mobilesuits when the Zaku II was designed and built. It only needed protection from rudimentary shell-firing weapons and not true anti-mobilesuit weapons. Plus, accuracy wasn't required with a 120mm sub-machine gun; it was designed to be a close-range weapon.
Adding to this back when Zaku II were made Federation didn't even have a thing called a "Mobile Suit" or a "Beam Rifle" all they had were fighter planes all they had were little peashooters which basically did nothing against the Zaku's then heavy fortified armor. Plus they can block while firing if the shield was mounted on the left arm the entire mobile suit would have to shift to the left side for the shield to work and then shift back to the right to fire again.
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Post by neolordmaxwell » Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:34 pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:The logic behind Zaku II's design has always been a little flimsy, ie - why is there a shoulder-mounted ram for body checking when there isn't a Fed suit design in existence to be body checked? In the case of the right shoulder shield, it seems purely reactive to the presence of the shoulder ram on the left side. Zaku II's left arm seems to be there for only two reasons: the shoulder ram, and stability for the burst-firing MMP-78 via the side handle. The right arm (I guess the Zaku II was never meant for ambidexterity or southpaws) is the all-important one, too necessary for the purpose of wielding the primary weapon. If a chance shot were to take the arm, the MMP-78 would essentially become useless.

Ties in nicely with ZfH's point about the only dangers present being conventional AT shell and missile weaponry, whose ultimate purpose may not have been anti-MS, but whose capability to damage such could not be overlooked considering the "eggs in one basket" single firing arm design of Zaku II.
Don't forget the ever present importanct of AMBAC- the more arms, the better, because you have more mass to shift to move position. And if that moving mass exists on both sides, that is so much more precious propellent not needed for fine turns and maneuvers.

Zakus were originally meant for space combat, where they would be facing off against saberfish, Magellans, and Salamas. The shoulder sheild would then, I assume, be used to absorb CIWS systems in place on such ships, allowing the zaku to get in close to do its stuff. PG sources cite that sheilds are generally leayers assemblies built for strength, with layer after layer of armor material tightly packed for as much strength as possible- so a device used to suck up bullets in this case isn't completly inpractical.

A shoulder ram is a cheap (messy) alretnative to disabling a gun turret or ship without using up bullets, which are irretrevable metal resources for a colony based millitary. Notice that even the Zaku I has a shoulder ram of sorts, and that as Amuro finds out in episode 4, most seasoned Zeon pilots are more than comfortable using this as a makeshift weapon.

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Post by SniperBlade » Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:55 pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:The logic behind Zaku II's design has always been a little flimsy, ie - why is there a shoulder-mounted ram for body checking when there isn't a Fed suit design in existence to be body checked? In the case of the right shoulder shield, it seems purely reactive to the presence of the shoulder ram on the left side. Zaku II's left arm seems to be there for only two reasons: the shoulder ram, and stability for the burst-firing MMP-78 via the side handle. The right arm (I guess the Zaku II was never meant for ambidexterity or southpaws) is the all-important one, too necessary for the purpose of wielding the primary weapon. If a chance shot were to take the arm, the MMP-78 would essentially become useless.

Ties in nicely with ZfH's point about the only dangers present being conventional AT shell and missile weaponry, whose ultimate purpose may not have been anti-MS, but whose capability to damage such could not be overlooked considering the "eggs in one basket" single firing arm design of Zaku II.
This might have been used to take out BattleShip bridges. since there are a popular target for MS. The MS are already going at high speed to get aroudn the AA fire and could ram the bridge pretty much putting the ship ot of commision unless it had a secondary bridge. Instead of using there Vauble 120MM ammo, or take the chance of drop there Heat Hawk.

You could also say that the Zeon officials though aherad and knew that the Federation would at some point make MS. so there units could have a O.S wepaon incase they where mostly disabled.
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Post by Lans » Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:07 am

SniperBlade wrote:This might have been used to take out BattleShip bridges. since there are a popular target for MS. The MS are already going at high speed to get aroudn the AA fire and could ram the bridge pretty much putting the ship ot of commision unless it had a secondary bridge. Instead of using there Vauble 120MM ammo, or take the chance of drop there Heat Hawk.
Oh so true. You would rather rammed the vessel bridge, risking the entire shield arm, not to mention the MS itself in the process, rather than firing the valuable 120mm ammo. Too true, we should start counting the cost of losing 120mm ammo and heat hawk, in comparison to the cost of a vessel and the MS itself. Wait, wait.. Comparing 120mm ammo and a heat hawk to a target vessel like Salamis and the Zaku itself? Hmm.. something wrong with that. :roll:

Oh I know, it's the price. Is is worth risking the entire MS shield arm and the MS itself rather than just firing the standard round-easy to produce-plenty to use-120mm ammo? and that bridge is not as lightly defended as you think. Although it's a different and way better ship than salamis, in 0083 Stardust Memory - Gato's Nieu Ziel launched its cable arm only to penetrated a small portion of the Delaz's flagship control room/bridge. I dunno about the result of having a Zaku ramming against salamis bridge, but I prefer to use the ammo rather than diving into a suicidal ram.
Last edited by Lans on Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by SniperBlade » Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:36 am

Never said it was Practical, the MS do need to save there ammo I ment Vauable as in defending themselves from other MS or Fighters.
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Post by turkishproverb » Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:40 am

Lans, he was talking about the Spiked shoulder.


Not the gun arm with the sheild.

IN that instance, a Ship ram could make a degree of sense.
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Post by Lans » Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:58 am

Glad that nobody took it as offense. and I mean no offense. :wink:

Now, back to the discussion. You missed my point, it's not about the practicality but the risk and result. Either it's the shield arm or the spiked shoulder, the impact from a speeding full throttle Zaku rammed against a vessel bridge like the salamis would be devastating to both. I think the pilot would be unconscious if not killed in the process. It's likely that the Zaku itself won't survive such an impact. In that case, what's the use of saving up bullets and heat axe?

In 08'th MS Team, Karen riding RX-79G got slammed by a (maybe a gog or ackguy, whatever) and lose consciousness. It's such a slight blow compared to what we discussed above, but enough to disable the pilot. I don't think a pilot rammed his MS into a vessel bridge could fare better than that. Either he's dead or fallen unconscious, unless the speed is not that fast. But then, should a light ram able to destroy the bridge? I don't think so. Thus IMO, it's best to spray your ammo, take the ship down and return for R&R. It's better and a lot less risky than ramming.

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Post by Dendrobium Stamen » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:03 am

It should be noted that, at the end of the day, we're talking about ramming a Zaku's shoulder through the armoured hull of a Federation warship. Granted, the armour on the bridge is weaker due to all that transparent material for the windows, but it's still a structure with armour on it. Attacking that with the shoulder joint, even if it has a spiked pauldron atop it, still risks massive damage to the mechanical components responsible for operating the relevant arm, and could even risk removing said arm from the torso.

So it becomes a case of save bullets, lose the use of an arm, if not the limb itself. Not much of an economy, if you ask me...
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Post by His Divine Shadow » Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:24 am

Why bother shoulder-ramming a ship's bridge when kicking would work just as well? Wasn't there a bit of animation during the Battle of Abowaku that showed a Zeon suit doing a Miroslav Klose on a Fed ship's bridge tower?
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