beam sniper, just how practical it is?

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quasadra
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beam sniper, just how practical it is?

Post by quasadra » Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:37 am

after watching the 12 ep of 00, one thing come to my mind. when Lockon snipe those amphs, Graham quickly remark it as a gundam and finds Lockon with it.

so my question is, when you fire a beam sniper you get a big bright flash that gives up your location immediately. isnt sniper surpose to relied on stealth and surprise? maybe we should stick to solid round rifles.
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Post by Black Knight » Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:52 am

I've been arguing that point for at least four years, maybe five. Still, it's always nice to have more converts....

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Re: beam sniper, just how practical it is?

Post by mcred23 » Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:29 am

quasadra wrote:so my question is, when you fire a beam sniper you get a big bright flash that gives up your location immediately. isnt sniper surpose to relied on stealth and surprise? maybe we should stick to solid round rifles.
Yeah, pretty much. The beam probably would be easy to track unless you are at extreme range (Think of a case like Lalah's attack on Konpeitoh Island in MSG), however, solid rifles may not be powerful enough (Although I honestly doubt it would be too hard to make a good one) and from a purely out-of-universe standpoint, beams look cooler than nothing at all (Which is what you'd get with the oft suggested non-tracer firing standard sniper rifle). :|
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Post by Dark Duel » Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:04 am

@mcred: This is mostly me nitpciking, but saying "Konpeitoh Island" is redundant, as the "Toh" portion means "Island" - so you're basically saying "Konpei Island Island"
@quasadra: Still mostly me nitpicking, but the official spelling is "Anf"

Also, whether you're at extreme range or not, a visible beam is still going to reveal your position to the enemy the instant it's fired, so unless you're sure you can nail everyone (which you normally should assume NOT), you're better off moving once you've fired.

The case of the Elmeth was slightly different, as its 12 bits were it primary assault weapon, allowing it to attack from extreme ranges and from up to twelve different points at once not including the main body.
The pilot of a machine with a sniper rifle would not have that advantage.
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Post by mutantshark » Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:17 am

The whole questioning of the stealth aspect is assuming that an MS sniper fills the same role as a human one - it seems to me to be more likely that the emphasis is on a high-power, highly accurate long-range beam rifle, rather than staying hidden etc. After all this is a giant robot, not some guy in a ghillie suit.
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Post by Recon 5 » Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:11 pm

I was thinking along those lines, too. In mobile suit combat, unless you're going for sheer maneuverability, extreme range and damage per hit are the most important characteristics of a weapon (this is why beam rifles trump machine guns most of the time). The beam sniper rifle fulfills both criteria, plus any solid projectile would develop a ballistic trajectory at the ranges we're talking about. Beams fly straight so theres no compensation needed. Makes things that much easier.

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Post by Gadget » Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:23 pm

mutantshark wrote:The whole questioning of the stealth aspect is assuming that an MS sniper fills the same role as a human one - it seems to me to be more likely that the emphasis is on a high-power, highly accurate long-range beam rifle, rather than staying hidden etc. After all this is a giant robot, not some guy in a ghillie suit.
And maybe a partner with a binoculus or the bottom of the space shuttle as a shield. (Think EVA-00 and EVA-01) :wink:

As for slug sniper cannon, it's even harder. There is always the cross wind factor, spin of the rounds, and gravity In real life, a sniper shot a taleban commander at about 2 kicks away. He was aiming about 12m away from the target. So a good slug thrower sniper have to factor all this. And your cross hair will not be on the target.

I think in the MS 08th MS Team, they have to caliberate the 180mm cannon before the operation.

A beam sniper cannon will make life simpler. I have not heard wind or gravity will throw a beam off.

I do agree that a sniper is shoot and scoot. But I've met real army sniper that told me in jungle warfare, it could be better if they shoot, and stay still. The movement during the 'scoot' may give your position away.

I've have yet to watch Gundam 00, but I think what happen is what we call a 'sharpshooter'. A sniper will only take out important targets, like commander or vital equipments. And sniper will not take out a platoon of MS. After all, many real like sniper rifle is still bolt action.

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Post by toysdream » Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:29 pm

Dark Duel wrote:@mcred: This is mostly me nitpciking, but saying "Konpeitoh Island" is redundant, as the "Toh" portion means "Island" - so you're basically saying "Konpei Island Island"
Kind of like those signs that say "ATM Machine." :-)

Anyways, lots of good points pro and con. Personally, I think I come down on the "con" side; sniper attacks with beam weapons are darned conspicuous, and the fact that the beams scatter pretty rapidly (especially in atmosphere) makes it hard to do precision targeting. Unless you have a really good long-range weapon, great sensors, and are prepared to dash off to a new location in between every shot, you're really playing the role of artillery rather than a sniper.

And that's not even getting into the question of whether a giant robot can be hidden or camouflaged effectively in the first place. Perhaps this would be a good application for good old Mirage Colloid...

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Post by azrael » Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:38 pm

"Sharpshooter" or "marksman" would probably be a better word than sniper. Snipers usually act independently and rely on stealth. A marksman would with the unit acting as a support. A beam sniper rifle would give away his position after a few shots and we've seen Dynames mostly working mostly as a support unit.

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Post by J-Lead » Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:16 pm

Well, while the beam sniper rifle on the Dynames may give away his location, there's also the fact that it's a GN particle based weapon, something that I have yet to see run out of juice (at least I don't think it ever did,) and infinite ammo is something I'd definitely like to have at my disposal when fighting an army...
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Post by Gelmax » Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:01 pm

The idea behind a beam sniper rifle is that it doesn't matter if the enemy sees you, because you're so far out of their range that you'll be able to pick off a good number of them before they get close enough to return fire, and beam sniper rifles are rare enough that the enemy group probably won't have a sniper in their team to countersnipe you. And though if they rush straight at you, taking heavy casualties from your shots in the process, the survivors might be able to reach you, if you've got a few friends hanging around then the enemies are doomed.

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Post by CYNICISM AT IT'S BEST » Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:12 pm

one thing I'd like to point out is that Graham was in the air and had the advantage of height to aid in spotting the Dynames, not to mention he's an ace of (insert number of wars here :?: ), normal troopers would be in total disarray like we've seen before, as for what Toysdream said, you're right I think that's why they classify it as an artillery unit, though I'd label it more as a high precision artillery unit than anything else.

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Post by thenuke9000 » Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:19 pm

Well, in the the UC they had both beam and slug snipers with the GM Sniper [G] and GM Sniper II mobile suits respectively, and the beam sniper from 08th MS Team gave itself right away when it fired thus ending it it's destruction. However in the same OVA Karen used her beam rifle in a hidden spot combined with extreme distance to conceal her position as she commenced her attack. Now the GM Sniper II units appeared in 0080 and were immediately used as cannon fodder so their actual performance was not seen. However with Gundam 00, the Gundam's GN particles make radar and radio communication useless, thus concealing the Gundam's position as he fires multiple volleys at the enemy.
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Post by Strike Zero » Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:25 pm

Frankly, the idea of a Gundam sniper trying to be "stealthy" isn't exactly a logical one.

When you've got a mobile suit wielding a rifle of that size, it isn't so much a "sniper rifle" as it is a precision long range cannon. Even if it was a normal slug gun and wasn't attached to a completely conspicuous and easy to spot giant robot, such a weapon wouldn't be too hard to find even without radar. Ergo, the way I see it is that the Dynames isn't supposed to be stealthy, but to simply provide extreme long range support fire for the close-range units like the Exia and Kyrios, regardless if the enemy knows where it is or not.
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Post by HalfDemonInuyasha » Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:54 pm

Also don't forget the F90II-L Gundam F90II Long Range Type. Shells AND beams with a range of at least 62 miles/100 kilometers with just shells alone and even further with beams. (and ACCURATELY being able to hit things too) That sort of sniper, well, you'd be hard-pressed in taking it down with that sort of distance between you.

In terms of MS snipers alone, as said, they weren't really meant to be stealthy at all. Otherwise, they wouldn't be more like general purpose MS armed with a sniping-capable weapon. (like the GM Sniper Custom, GM Sniper II, etc). They are armed in ways that they EXPECT to be found after sniping, so they'd be able to more easily defend themselves when enemy MS inevitably find them.
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Post by Recon 5 » Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:59 pm

I just thought of something: with GN particles capable of scrambling sensors, Lockon's opponents might well start out thinking that the shots were coming from thin air, and they would continue to do so until some lucky bloke happens to angle his camera in the Dynames' direction.

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Post by abrahamsen0 » Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:36 pm

Was it ever stated that the Dynames can't go invisible like the Exia?

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Post by Black Knight » Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:38 pm

abrahamsen0 wrote:Was it ever stated that the Dynames can't go invisible like the Exia?
Quite the opposite; we see it turn invisible in Episode 13. Or, more precisely, we see it come out of invisibility mode.

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Post by Zerosystem » Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:48 pm

abrahamsen0 wrote:Was it ever stated that the Dynames can't go invisible like the Exia?
No. We actually see the Dynames disengage its GN invisibility in episode 13.

As it may be, stealth isn't really a high point for MS. The Deathscythe's Hyper jammers probably only augment the natural radar-defeating abilities of Gundanium alloy, which was present on the other Gundams, and was absolutely necessary as it was a close combat model, that acted alone.

The Blitz's Mirage Colloid isn't meant for long-term use, and I assume it was designed for infiltration/specific elimination of targets.

Turn A's invisibility involves something to do with magnetic fields (hence the beam sabre) but it's more or a plot device to allow Loran to escape, being an improvised technique rather than a real feature.
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Post by exxecutor000 » Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:57 am

I think Dynames is more effective in bright environment when its beam fire is not as visible :wink:

Due to its design (superiority & able to engage many enemies at a time), Dynames pilot can be confident that even though enemy found him, he should be able to repel that attack effectively from long range.

What happen in that ep12, is that Graham is a skilled pilot in a high-maneuver mobile suit, able to dodge Dynames shots. It did surprise Lockon.
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