Questions on the Gwazine class

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Post by toysdream » Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:52 pm

Random Zaku Pilot wrote:Plus ships like Zanzibar's, Gwazine's, and Chivvay's are basically command ships well not the Chivvay but the other two are.
Not quite. The Gwazine and Chivvay are used as flagships, but the Zanzibar isn't - it's mostly used by special forces teams who operate both on Earth and in space. The fact that Cima's Zanzibar II ends up leading a fleet seems to be just a coincidence.

Under wartime conditions, it would be pointless for a Zanzibar to lead a bunch of Musais because they couldn't accompany it to Earth. And a Zanzibar that never travels between Earth and space would be a waste of hardware.

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Post by wing zero alpha » Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:59 pm

Didn't Kycilia use a Zanzibar for her flagship though? Or was just that used as an escape ship from A Bao A Qu while her original flagship was a Gwazine or a Chivvay.

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Post by ShadowCell » Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:10 pm

She was on a Gwazine-class at the head of the reinforcements that set out for Solomon from Granada and never made it, and then (I get the impression, at least) proceeded to A Baoa Qu. Then she took a shuttle over to the fortress and added a fetching new orifice to Gihren's head. I don't think the ship she tried to escape on was her flagship, though.

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Post by toysdream » Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:41 pm

wing zero alpha wrote:Didn't Kycilia use a Zanzibar for her flagship though? Or was just that used as an escape ship from A Bao A Qu while her original flagship was a Gwazine or a Chivvay.
Just an escape ship. As ShadowCell notes, she traveled to A Baoa Qu aboard a Gwazine and then switched to a launch craft to land at A Baoa Qu. Since her Gwazine continued on to the front lines, Kycilia probably just grabbed whatever she could find inside the fortress in order to make her getaway.

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Post by Draco Starcloud » Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:01 pm

Didn't Kycillia use the Zanzibar itself to escape or was there actually multiple Zanzibars in the series?
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Post by Black Knight » Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:39 pm

Draco Starcloud wrote:Didn't Kycillia use the Zanzibar itself to escape or was there actually multiple Zanzibars in the series?
Multiple; the Zanzibar itself got shot down earlier, during one of the skirmishes between Solomon and A Baoa Qu, as I recall.

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Post by toysdream » Sat Dec 15, 2007 1:55 pm

And that's assuming that Char's Zanzibar was actually the "name ship" of its class. Although it's just referred to as "Zanzibar" in the animation, there aren't any other ships of the class around to distinguish it from. As with the Magellan that gets blown up at Luna II in episode 4, and the Chivvays that that confront the White Base at Side 6 and the Texas Colony, it's unclear whether Char's vessel is supposed be a Zanzibar or the Zanzibar.

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Post by Gelgoog Jager » Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:48 am

Since both ends of the "belly" of the Gwazine can deploy MS, is it safe to assume that the entire belly is an MS hangar? Delaz's ship seems to have the MS placed on the port side of the hangar while the starboard section of the hangar is to allow MS to move along the hangar as seen in the first episode of 0083. Although I'm not sure if the hangar belly is long enough to have 20 MS lined up shoulder to shoulder.

While checking Kycillia's Gwazine, I noticed that the Musais deploy 3 Rick Doms each. However what further caught my attention was the fact that they were launching in a vertical postion. It was then tat I remembered seeing something similiar in the artwork in the MSV model kits boxes. Both the MS-06E-3 and MS-06Z are launching from Musais in a vertiacl position. While Mark has pointed out in his page that the Musais hangar shouldn't be big enough, it seems the original idea was for the Musai to hold its MS in such way.

Since we are also discussing about other Zeon ships, here are other things that I noticed:

In the same battle it can be seen that at least one Musai is model with 3-turrets while the other two only have 2 turrets. In the movie, The Musais participating in the same battle are all 3-turret types(the only two that are seen close enough have them: the one close to the Gwazine and the one that is part of the escort of Char's Zanzibar. This one is shot down by White Base after the head into the Federation fleet.) Now the interesting point of all this is the fact that all the MS deployed in this battle, with the exception of Char's Gelgoog, are Rick Doms. So 3-turret type Musais seem to be capable of carrying them as well.

My guess on the 2-turret type Musais is that they are new vessels which lack the third turret in order to reduce costs. The late type Musai also applies the same meassure.

The Dolowa is official by Sunrise standards since Delaz names it on the 0083 OVA. He tells Gato that his carrier, the Dolowa, has been shot down. Since it is mentioned in an animated production, it is considered official.

Now the Zanzibar. My only problem here is the MS capacity of this ships. Char's ship carries a Bygro, a Zakrello and 2 Rick Doms. The Bygro alone is 45.5m long and 26.3 tall. It is probaly as wide if not more as it is long. The Zakrello is 25m long. Considreing the large amount of space this 2 MAs take. Later on, the same Zanzibar holds Char's Gelgoog, 2 Rick Doms and the Elmeth, which is 85.4m long and 47.7 meters tall.

We can safely assume that the MS capacity of the Zanzibar is not just 6 MS, although I cannot give an exact number either.

That's if for now, I will come up with some more later on.

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Post by mcred23 » Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:25 am

Gelgoog Jäger wrote:In the same battle it can be seen that at least one Musai is model with 3-turrets while the other two only have 2 turrets. In the movie, The Musais participating in the same battle are all 3-turret types(the only two that are seen close enough have them: the one close to the Gwazine and the one that is part of the escort of Char's Zanzibar. This one is shot down by White Base after the head into the Federation fleet.) Now the interesting point of all this is the fact that all the MS deployed in this battle, with the exception of Char's Gelgoog, are Rick Doms. So 3-turret type Musais seem to be capable of carrying them as well.

My guess on the 2-turret type Musais is that they are new vessels which lack the third turret in order to reduce costs. The late type Musai also applies the same meassure.
One thing worth mentioning, as Mark pointed out in his Musai page, is that this was the only time late in the show that we see the three-turreted Musai, and that "the animation is somewhat inconsistent on this point". That said, it's been suggested that the two-turreted Musai had it's hanger reconfigured to better suit the larger Rick Dom, and I can't see why a few of the older, three-turreted model didn't get the same thing done to them (Which would explain why those three-turreted models carry them).
Gelgoog Jäger wrote:The Dolowa is official by Sunrise standards since Delaz names it on the 0083 OVA. He tells Gato that his carrier, the Dolowa, has been shot down. Since it is mentioned in an animated production, it is considered official.


The name is mentioned, but IIRC, nothing in 0083 ever confirmed the class of ship the Dolowa was. However, reguardless of whether 0083 confirmed it or not, we all know that the Dolowa was the second and final ship of the Dolos class to be built (After the namesake, of course).
Gelgoog Jäger wrote:Now the Zanzibar. My only problem here is the MS capacity of this ships. Char's ship carries a Bygro, a Zakrello and 2 Rick Doms. The Bygro alone is 45.5m long and 26.3 tall. It is probaly as wide if not more as it is long. The Zakrello is 25m long. Considreing the large amount of space this 2 MAs take. Later on, the same Zanzibar holds Char's Gelgoog, 2 Rick Doms and the Elmeth, which is 85.4m long and 47.7 meters tall.

We can safely assume that the MS capacity of the Zanzibar is not just 6 MS, although I cannot give an exact number either.


Not really. What isn't taken into account is that we don't know the size and dimensions of the Zanzibar's hanger. We also don't know how the MS are arranged inside the hanger (Although the animation may provide some help with that), which would also have to be taken into account. All we know is that the official number of MS the Zanzibar can carry is six, but as numerious other designs have shown us (Such as the Salamis Kai and half the ships from the mid-0080's), these numbers usually reflect the normal/basic amount of MS a ship can/will carry, and it isn't uncommon for them to be able to squeeze in a few more (For example, Zeta-era ships can often fit in around 50% more MS than their listed amount).
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Post by toysdream » Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:04 pm

Gelgoog Jäger wrote:Now the Zanzibar. My only problem here is the MS capacity of this ships. Char's ship carries a Bygro, a Zakrello and 2 Rick Doms. The Bygro alone is 45.5m long and 26.3 tall. It is probaly as wide if not more as it is long. The Zakrello is 25m long. Considreing the large amount of space this 2 MAs take. Later on, the same Zanzibar holds Char's Gelgoog, 2 Rick Doms and the Elmeth, which is 85.4m long and 47.7 meters tall.
While we're referring to the animation, I should point out that these mobile armors aren't as big as the current official specs claim. The Elmeth in particular is often seen alongside Char's Gelgoog, and judging from the scene in which Char's damaged Gelgoog hitches a ride by clinging to the Elmeth's tail fin, it seems to be about three times as long and twice and high as the Gelgoog is tall. (In other words, roughly 60 meters long and 40 meters high.) And even that is considerably larger than the original specs that saw print before Entertainment Bible 1 was published.

As for the Musai, I note that Katoki's redesign for MS Igloo also features a catapult system (modeled on the one used in Gundam 0083) where the mobile suits are stored lying flat. This isn't compatible with all the scenes in the animation, but it's really the only way they can physically fit.

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Post by razgriz » Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:46 am

maybe katoki caught a gander at your web page mr. simmons and saw how much sense you made of that kooky starship :lol:

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Post by teslashark » Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:45 am

2-turret Musais are called sigfields,they are specialized for long-distance flying and MS carrying,they must have catapults.
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Post by trioknight » Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:32 am

teslashark wrote:2-turret Musais are called sigfields,they are specialized for long-distance flying and MS carrying,they must have catapults.
There are actually two types of two-turret Musais. The Siegfried-type, which to my knowledge has never been seen anywhere but 0080 and a couple of games, is a completely separate design from the standard-style Musai with two turrets that appears in the latter part of the original series that's being discussed here.

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Post by teslashark » Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:49 am

There are actually two types of two-turret Musais. The Siegfried-type, which to my knowledge has never been seen anywhere but 0080 and a couple of games, is a completely separate design from the standard-style Musai with two turrets that appears in the latter part of the original series that's being discussed here.[/quote]

Thanks :) . Someone once told me they are just three-turret musais, because they are built during a shortage of turrets :shock: :roll:
I now remember sigfields also appered in ZZ.
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Post by ZeonfromHell » Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:23 pm

toysdream wrote:Not quite. The Gwazine and Chivvay are used as flagships, but the Zanzibar isn't - it's mostly used by special forces teams who operate both on Earth and in space. The fact that Cima's Zanzibar II ends up leading a fleet seems to be just a coincidence.

Under wartime conditions, it would be pointless for a Zanzibar to lead a bunch of Musais because they couldn't accompany it to Earth. And a Zanzibar that never travels between Earth and space would be a waste of hardware.

-- Mark
Maybe Cima was a special forces commander. She had Gelgoog Marines and a ship designed to land directly on Earth from space. She would just be victim of circumstance. It's likely there would have been plans to re-conquer Earth if Solomon and A Boa A Qu were miraculous Zeon victories and the tide of the war swapped again (which was a very achievable goal in Gihren's point of view). Should that have happened, Gihren would activate her company and other Zanzibar class-equipped battle groups and invaded again. Of course that didnt happen because Zeon lost and she went in to exile. She eventually becomes becomes the leader of a fleet.
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Post by Wingnut » Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:25 pm

teslashark wrote:I now remember sigfields also appered in ZZ.
There is a contradiction in your testimony. It is impossible for the Siegfried type to appear in ZZ because 0080 the first time we saw them, and 0080 was made a few years after ZZ.
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Post by mcred23 » Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:48 pm

Those were almost certainly Endra class cruisers, as those are the closest thing to a Musai we see in ZZ (And, as Wingnut noted, the Musai FPT didn't show up outside War In The Pocket anyway)
teslashark wrote:2-turret Musais are called sigfields,they are specialized for long-distance flying and MS carrying,they must have catapults.
They aren't called Siegfrieds. That type of ship is known as the Musai Final Production Type (I often shorten that to FPT, as I did above), with the Siegfried being one of the two know ships of that type (The other being Valkyrie). AFAIK, they're little more than updated/improved Musais (In other words, I don't know where the idea comes that they are any more specialized for long distance flying than a normal Musai) and I don't think it's even been shown whether or not they had catapults (I don't remember 0080 showing it, and that's the only animated work they appear in).
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Post by Gelgoog Jager » Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:08 pm

mcred23 wrote:
teslashark wrote:2-turret Musais are called sigfields,they are specialized for long-distance flying and MS carrying,they must have catapults.
They aren't called Siegfrieds. That type of ship is known as the Musai Final Production Type (I often shorten that to FPT, as I did above), with the Siegfried being one of the two know ships of that type (The other being Valkyrie). AFAIK, they're little more than updated/improved Musais (In other words, I don't know where the idea comes that they are any more specialized for long distance flying than a normal Musai) and I don't think it's even been shown whether or not they had catapults (I don't remember 0080 showing it, and that's the only animated work they appear in).
Maybe the idea of long distance flying comes from a picture in MS Era where a few FPT Musais are seen in the orbit of Jupiter along with some unidentified of ships(maybe MS Era Jupitris?). However these Musais have many additional propellant tanks behind them, so, as far as we know any Musai with that much additional propellant might be able to reach Jupiter. The other ships might have also resupplied them along the way though.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/ ... /MS053.jpg

Edit: After this I went to check some other pics from MS Era, and found 2 that caught my attention:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/ ... /MS122.jpg

First this one, where 3 FPT Musais can be seen from behind Here we can see that these Musais actually have additional rocket engines in the main body. While this might not mean a greater flight range, it do might imply that these Musais were faster than regular Musais. In fact this might be possible considering that one of the main upgrades of the Tivvay over the Chivvay was speed. It might not be too far-fetched to think that both type of ships were high mobility ships meant to participate in special operations, like the ones in 0080.

Upon closer inspection, it can be seen that these Musais FPT also have an hexagonal hangar hatch on the back.

As for the other ship(if it's even a ship to begin with), it looks to me like a green Tivvay. In the original MSG and in MS Igloo there are green Chivvays, and since the Tivvay is based on the Chivvay, it doesn't seems weird to me that they decided to keep both color schemes.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/ ... /MS117.jpg

And now this one, where we can see a destroyed Musai at the bottom. However, if you look closely you will notice that it actually is a regular Musai from MSG, not the 0080 version. They clearest evidence of this is the side exhaust vents on the side of the Musai. This points out that maybe the 0080 version was intended from the start to be a different type of Musai.

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Post by Mark064 » Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:18 am

You're look too much into it really. MS Era is an Izubichi art book so everything is his design thus why it's filled with 0080 mecha even the Gundam and other non 0080 mecha are Izubichi's version. So what ships those are intended to be a regual Musai or the Final Production Type is harder to define. This probably fits in with the original idea of 0080 that almost everything there was originally intended to be the normal version.

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Post by Gelgoog Jager » Sat Jan 12, 2008 4:14 pm

Back to the difference between Musais, considering the 0080 refit a new Musai type, what would be its intended role?

Personally, after seeing the pic that shows the rear of the Musai which shows the additional thrusters I'm more inclined to think of it as a high mobility cruiser, which along with the Tivvay are used for special operations.

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