The Offical Gundam 00 Mecha Thread Mk III

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The Offical Gundam 00 Mecha Thread Mk III

Post by ShadowCell » Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:48 pm

New thread. Please mark all spoilers, no baseless speculation, don't muddy this thread up with crossover from the anime thread (this thread will be muddy enough anyway), and please don't act like idiots. Thanks.
Folken Fanel wrote:Well, there may not be a good reason for Setsuna preferring the gunblade to the beam saber other than personal preference. I know that, given the choice between a giant metal sword or a beam saber I'd take the sword, so maybe Mr. Seiei is the same way. Until we get a good explanation, IMO it's better to blame it on personal preference than technology.

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Post by Magnus » Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:53 pm

I'm going to repost in this new thread since I had edited mine and it probably got missed.

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Unless we see more proof of beam shields, then there's no practical reason to beat down another MS (although again I will admit it sometimes looks neato - see: Norris Packard) with a metallic blade when you can just whip out a beam sabre and slice 'em like butter. Yet, the reasons I find this strategy excusable with Packard are
1)He was an older pilot probably less experienced with heat hawk technology
2)Heat hawk technology really wasn't that much better because it had a limited energy supply
3)In the end the Gouf custom ultimately fell to superior technology so at least the continuity of beam weaponry remained logical

Rather than an isolated case that seemed cool and special in The MS 08th Team, with 00 we see Setsuna favoring antiquated technology over his beam sabres in almost every single episode. It's not like Setsuna ever needs that left hand free for anything else. I mean at least if he was holding another gun it would make sense that his reaction time in unhinging The Meatcleaver would be faster than drawing a beam sword but that's just not the case.

I personally believe that the UC timeline often illustrates the importance of tactical prowess over technology with the Gouf custom while still remaining plausible. Yet, now we see in alternate timelines once again the abandonment of the 'science' in 'science fiction' of Tomino's vision in favor of the flashy, commercialization of the super robot genre with the Exia. Heck, since 00 is in the A.D. timeline, if anything, it should be totally fair game for scrutiny.

But who knows, maybe some explanations will be given. I'm not quite ready to give up on 00 just yet.

Folken Fanel wrote:I know that, given the choice between a giant metal sword or a beam saber I'd take the sword, so maybe Mr. Seiei is the same way. Until we get a good explanation, IMO it's better to blame it on personal preference than technology.
This is tactically incompetent. According to this line of thinking then it's better to take an English Longbow to war instead of an assault rifle simply because it's bigger and might look cooler to put an arrow through someone.
Last edited by Magnus on Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by VentZX » Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:57 pm

Your logic makes no sense. For one, there was already an instance where Setsuna had to drop his main shield to draw his beam saber. To me, the use of the shield on Exia is a good sign that the Gundam isn't invisible. Every time the Exia has taken a direct hit, it was blocked by a shield. That makes the shield pretty damn important.

second, a hand held weapon on that scale makes little to no sense, and it never has. For example, we saw how easily the plasma blade was knocked out of the Flag's hand. The GN Sword is not held by the Exia, rather, it's better to say mounted on the arm directly.

Third, the solid blades aren't regular blades! They have GN in their name for a reason. We also have proof that there is something more to the GN Sword than just a big piece of metal. The way it seemingly melted through the Tieren in episode two is a good example.

In any case, I don't see what the argument against optional armaments are. The talk of wasting resources on an extra beam saber or two, let alone some solid weapons is ridiculous. Do you really think CB is strapped for cash when they have technology that is decades ahead of the competition? If the Exia is going to be a devoted melee fighter, it better damn well be armed to the teeth.

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Post by ExhileVoid » Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:05 pm

I'm not so sure what is the purpose of having those two GN short and long blades where the beam saber/dagger would work much better. They could be used as "Throwing Weapons" for special/dire/emergency situations kind of like the Windam's Stilleto armor penetrators since the only ranged weapons the Exia has is its beam gun mounted with the GN Sword and the GN Vulcans. Speaking of the Vulcans, just where the hell are the GN Vulcans located anyway?

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Post by Magnus » Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:08 pm

VentZX wrote:Do you really think CB is strapped for cash when they have technology that is decades ahead of the competition?
I'm eager to find this out in future episodes. This question also hinges on the issue of why put a bunch of modular thrusters and armor on Avalanche Exia (therefore compromising its structural integrity--at least in terms of flight on Earth) rather than making a completely new MS that would be structurally more sound were it made with more powerful flight specs to begin with.

And I concede the bit about the shield. I wasn't taking the shield into consideration (although if he's willing to drop the shield in favor of grabbing a beam sabre than that says a lot about the beam sabre's importance). However, if having hands free is the biggest promotion for the Gun/Rifle then why not just have a vent/port/whatever at the top of Exia's hand out of which a beam sabre extends? This still doesn't change the fact that it is (as of the episode explanations thus far) illogical for a melee MS "armed to the teeth" to use an alloy blade (warmed up in the microwave first or not) in favor of superior beam technology.

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Post by latenlazy » Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:34 pm

I would think that the solid blades are more versatile than beam sabers because they can be used to parry and block physical attacks and have a wider area to do so, and can be used in other ways that don't just involve slice and dice (since combat usually doesn't). The gunblade seems to be a quick access weapon, the long blade would probably offer the Exia a bit more manipulative prowess, the short blade would be very effective for stabs in very close range, as long blades become unwieldy once you're so close that you can't draw the sword or move it outside of the area that would be safe to permit sword motion. Thus I think every single blade in Exia does have a purpose, albeit a very specific one.

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Post by Janx_Dolaris » Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:48 pm

I think the comment earlier about the beamsabers causing explosions may be a good reason. Sabers heat things up, which coulda cause things to explode, possibly causing damage to exia if its close enough.

Also, maybe the other swords are for stealth? If he's fighting at night time, he probably doesnt want a big glowstick out. I know mecha aren't exactly stealthy (without stealth devices), but if you have a big light showing up on you, the enemies gonna see you coming for miles.

Also, if beamsabers can produce enough heat to cut so nicely, realistically the heat isnt just gonna be in the actual beam, but the air around it. It could possibly create heating issues for things around it, including exia. Its like a fire, do you need to touch it to feel hot? No, you just heat up ALOT more from touching it, a beamsword is alot hotter than a fire.

Also, if you call Exia gimmicky, atleast it doesnt have some magical system which taps into psychic powers, UC isnt all realism either.

We're still only 3 episodes in, chances are he'll use all the swords by the end of the series.

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Post by G.Squirrel » Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:17 pm

I don't know if it's been posted yet, but I have a question on one part of episode 3: During the Flag versus Exia fight, the Exia ignites a beam saber and destroys the Flag's rifle. During the slash, a strange pink blade(?) is being projected behind the Exia and it matches the degree of the beam saber. Does this mean that the Exia has double bladed beam sabers or is this just some animation error?

Screenshot here.

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Post by Hyakushiki » Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:28 pm

I think it's just an animation effect to dramatize the moment. That is just the arc of the beam blade from when he drew it, cutting the Flags' rifle, to where the Exia's arm stops.
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Post by Folken Fanel » Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:54 pm

Folken Fanel wrote:I know that, given the choice between a giant metal sword or a beam saber I'd take the sword, so maybe Mr. Seiei is the same way. Until we get a good explanation, IMO it's better to blame it on personal preference than technology.
This is tactically incompetent. According to this line of thinking then it's better to take an English Longbow to war instead of an assault rifle simply because it's bigger and might look cooler to put an arrow through someone.

You don't get what I'm saying, do you? From the animation, both the GN blade and beam saber are effective against Setsuna's current opponents, so instead of showing off all of the Exia's tricks he uses the blade instead. We could also say that the beam saber has limited power, or that eats up energy faster than the GN drive can replace it, or any number of things. The truth is, we don't know, and until we do I say the best thing to do is say it's Setsuna's personal preference. Besides, Rambo took out plenty of Koreans with his hunting bow, and they all had assault rifles.
Last edited by Folken Fanel on Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Dess » Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:31 pm

Exia might use the gun blade for the same reason F91 Suits use shot lancers and beam sabers. A beam saber will cause an enemy reactor to go critical and a solid blade will not. Of corse we know next to nothing about power supplies in this continuity so this might mean nothing.

Also every enemy he has pulled a beam saber on has seemed surprised by its power, so maybe he doesn't want to show off all his tricks right of the bat.

Finally I want to point out the Red Frame Astray. Lowe Guele decided to look for a new close combat weapon because the beam saber used to much energy and because it was to power full and imprecise for his needs. A beam saber can only cut through an object, a metal blade can slap an enemy with the flat side if you only want to warn them.

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Post by Recon 5 » Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:35 pm

It doesn't show tactical incompetence. It shows he can learn from his mistakes on the fly.

First thing's first, though. The big sword was used first because it was the most readily available. We saw how long it took for Setsuna to bring out the beam saber. If he had tried to do that during Graham's first run, Graham would have been able to score a free hit. Therefore, the big sword was used because it was the only thing that could be readied at such short notice.

However, you'll notice that Setsuna only made one swing with the big sword. After missing, he realized that the weapon didn't offer enough swing speed to catch the agile Flag, so instead of making like some Super Robot pilot and trying for a lucky hit, he decided to maximize his chances and pull out a faster weapon- the beam saber. That ensured a speedy end to the battle.

Note also that he did not choose to drop the shield and pull out his beam saber while Graham was palming his shoulder, although he could very well have done so. He gave himself time (and space) to properly prepare the beam saber by distancing himself from Graham, also knowing from his experience with the Enact that he could easily dodge the shots from the Linear Rifle.

All this does NOT show tactical incompetence. Instead, it shows Setsuna's ability to rapidly learn from experience and make the best decisions almost instinctively.

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Post by toysdream » Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:03 pm

Well, since people are still fretting over the Exia's weaponry, here are the explanations from the High Grade kit manual. Please clip and save!
WEAPONS
The "seven swords" attached to each part of the Exia's body can be used to suit the mission.

GN Long Blade and GN Short Blade: The GN long blade is attached to the left hip, and the GN short blade to the right hip. Because their blades are enveloped in GN particles, they display phenomenal cutting abilities. Of the Exia's seven swords, these required the most development time.

GN Sword: The Exia's main weapon. Attached to the right arm. This is the largest of the seven swords, and its blade is longer than the Exia's arm. Although it has great destructive power, there are situations where it can't be used due to its size. Aside from functioning as a sword, it can also transform into rifle mode and be used as a gun. Its GN beam has high destructive power, and no army has a means of defense against it.

GN Beam Saber: Attached to both shoulders of the Exia. When it is drawn from the shoulder, a blade of GN particles appears. Rather than a physical sword, it is a pure beam blade. While the beam saber has high power, its power can be decreased by atmospheric conditions or methods of beam diffusion. Every nation is rushing to develop these as next-generation weapons for mobile suits, but only Celestial Being has succeeded in implementing them.

GN Beam Dagger: Attached to the Exia's waist. The basic system is the same as the GN beam saber, and it emits a beam blade rather than a physical sword. Its beam blade is adjusted to be shorter than that of the saber, making it harder to diffuse. Its pilot Setsuna has taken advantage of this to develop a tactic of throwing these weapons at distant enemies.

GN Vulcan: A small gun installed in both arms of the Exia. Although the GN sword's rifle mode has high power, it requires a transformation action and can't respond instantly. Thus these were installed in the arms as a backup. Their power is low and their original purpose was limited to diversion, but because their beams are capable of intermittent rapid fire, they can be a threat to conventional weapons that lack E Carbon armor.

GN Shield: A shield with high strength constructed of E Carbon. No current mobile suit weapon has offensive power exceeding the strength of this shield. Because the Exia was expected to fight mainly in close combat, this shield is fairly small. Also, so as to increase the freedom of the manipulator, it is designed so that it can be affixed directly to the arm.
-- Mark

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Post by latenlazy » Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:15 pm

It would seem that the GN Gunblade and longblade has become slightly more analogous to the Anti-Ship Sword.

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Post by Homeless » Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:18 pm

Thanks toysdream; interesting stuff.
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Post by Annon Kaies Zi » Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:33 pm

I guess these are the answers people were looking for. Thanks again, Mark. It seems like the beam sabers and daggers suffer from atmospheric conditions and diffusion. This very clearly, and very reasonably, explains why the Exia is equipped with physical blades. We also get a very clear reason for the different blades. The GN Sword is good for general purpose. Though, we also have the GN Long Blade and GN Short Blade, which serve their own purposes. So hopefully these explanations will leave the "Exia doesn't make any sense" discussions to rest.

I do find it quite interesting that the beam sabers can be affected by weather. I assume we'll see this in the series. Along with the methods of beam diffusion. Maybe we'll see the different factions create different methods to diffuse GN-powered beams.

On another note: to the person that asked where the GN Vulcans are located: like mentioned in Mark's post, they are located on the end of the forearm. The second picture of HLJ's High Grade Gundam Exia page shows where they are located. I find it a very interesting spot for vulcans. We've seen the mostly on the heads of mobile suits, which never made the most sense to me. It seems much more logical to have them located on the head. So it will be nice to see these utilized, especially against Setsuna's more difficult battles.
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Post by VentZX » Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:32 pm

Finally, some solid info. Thanks for the info Mark.

So, the GN Daggers can be used as throwing weapons? Awesome.

The mention of the GN Blades still being in development would pretty much explain why they haven't shown up in animation yet. I'm so glad to see that beam technology isn't the end all be all in this series. I'm loving the Exia more and more.

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Post by Ascension » Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:27 pm

"E Carbon Armor"?

That's new. We now know the Exia's shield is made out of it, but I assume the rest of the MS isn't, since the rest of the MS isn't... well... essentially invincible. Sounds like some tough stuff. I wonder if the Anti-Gundam squad bothered to go back and track down the Exia's discarded shield...

I wonder if the Tieren Hi-Mo's forearm is reinforced with E Carbon. That would explain why the Exia had a hard time cutting through it.

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Post by Homeless » Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:49 pm

E Carbon has been mentioned within the context of the anime already; Kyrios' missile container is made of it.

I highly doubt the Tieren's forearm is made of the material, as the GN Sword cuts through the forearm of the first Tieren Exia goes for in episode 2. The reason the HMT managed to block is is most likely due to the awkward angle of the swing and the fact Setsuna could put little force or momentum into it. Even then, the blade sinks about halfway through the armor.
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Post by Dean_the_Young » Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:51 pm

Ascension wrote:"E Carbon Armor"?

That's new. We now know the Exia's shield is made out of it, but I assume the rest of the MS isn't, since the rest of the MS isn't... well... essentially invincible. Sounds like some tough stuff. I wonder if the Anti-Gundam squad bothered to go back and track down the Exia's discarded shield...

I wonder if the Tieren Hi-Mo's forearm is reinforced with E Carbon. That would explain why the Exia had a hard time cutting through it.

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My guess is that "E Carbon Armor" is one of the newer types of armor, if not an end all. Likely you just need a little bit to withstand the GN vulcans.

As another note, the shield that Setsuna discarded to fight Graham was recovered. Celestial Being is careful in regards to forensics and what it leaves behind; episode 3 and the scene with the Kyrios's missile pods was clear on that much.
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