Semi-Monocoque frame

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J-Lead
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Semi-Monocoque frame

The Movable frame seems to be one of the most popular technology topics when it comes to a mobile suit's construction, and we all know what the difference is between the Movable and the Monocoque frames. However, I don't hear much about the Semi Monocoque frame, and although I can make an educated guess on what it is, I'd like to know the details.

I also heard somewhere that Mobile suits had a hard time miniturizing using the Movable frame, so they went back to using the Semi Monocoque frame with the scaled down Mobile suits. Yet all the profiles for MAHQ state that the scaled down MS use the movable frame. Now I usually resort to believing MAHQ over someone else's statement, but can someone please verify this?

Here's the statement for referance:
someone at Animeboards.com wrote:Indeed, the movable frame doesn't miniaturize well. Movable frames are definitely used from Zeta to Char's Counterattack. However, mobile suits in F91 and V Gundam may NOT be using movable frames and either an older semi-monocoque design or something completely new. It was never specified.
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Well, if you look at the lineart for some of the mobile suits from Zeta to CCA and compare it to stuff from F91 to Victory, there are pretty noticable differences with how much the armor covers the body. The early-mid UC MS clearly has exposed areas on them, often showing some of the inner parts and clearly showing use of the moveable frame. The most obvious example is the Hyaku Shiki, where the legs has the most minimal amount of armor covering it.

But when looking at lineart for something like the F91 or the Victory Gundam, most of the parts are fairly well covered by the armor (good to note also that there arent very many variable-form MS at this time either). It may look like they're using the old semi-monocoque frame technology, but it really was never specified what kind of frame they used. The only time these things were specified was back in Zeta's "moveable frame = win" heyday and when transforming suits were becoming a norm.
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I would trust the MS used the movable frame design...at the very least, the general concept it is meant for. Less unnecessary armor that would weigh down the Mobile Suit for greater speed and maneuverability while not completely cutting down on weapons options (unless it was meant more for a specific role)
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Draco Starcloud
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I believe that the Semi-monocoque frame allows for a well-armored body that is more flexible than the Monocoque frame.

For example, the original GM has a semi-monocoque frame while the Zaku II has a monocoque frame.

The GM is also less bulky and more flexible. It can also rotate its torso. Zakus don't have a waist.

Heck, most Feddie machines have waists if I'm not mistaken. Those that can't turn at least a little have Core Blocks.
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Jesus, why does this thing about monocoque keep coming up? I know you're asking mostly about the post-CCA era, but monocoque simply doesn't figure as a possibility.

According to the current tech of the Universal Century, no Mobile Suits ever had Monocoque frames. It has been quietly swept under the carpet, and it no longer matters. Semi-monocoque does not exist either. GMs, the Gundam, etcetera, all used a skeleton covered by armour. The point of the movable frame in the Gryps era is less armour weight, more thrusters which are built into the skeleton rather than bolted-on it, and the occasional model with binders to help manouverability.

To end this, I'll refer you to this thread.

And I'll quote two bits from that thread:
Kosh wrote:Early on in the 80s, when Gundam started getting more tech-savvy and the fan culture was growing, it was officially declared that the basic design principles of the Federation and Zeon were different. As you say, the Federation sported internal skeletons upon which armour and thrusters were added. Zeon, according to this, used monocoque designs, much like what you'd find in a car.

Upon closer scrutiny, this idea is completely bunk. A Mobile Suit with a monocoque design would crumble upon its own weight. Imagine a human body with no skeleton and you have a pretty good idea of what would happen.

Basically considering present-day MG and PG models, this idea has been mostly retconned out (...) The Zakus clearly have internal skeletons. The big difference between the Fed and Zeon now is that the Feds always placed emphasis on lighter models, whereas Zeon focused on armour, uh... mour.

The movable frame is simply the idea of making the skeleton the most important part of the design, with armour being used, IN THEORY, to protect only the vitals of the MS. Of course, animation wise this doesn't always happen (the Mk-II shows some internals, but look at other later Zeta MS and they don't look like that was kept in mind in their visual design).
And, of course, from Mark himself:
toysdream wrote:The old monocoque theory seems to have been quietly taken out back to the glue factory.

This means that the "movable frame" concept isn't such a radical departure from the earlier methods, but it does have a couple of distinguishing features. The most important is that, in a movable frame design, the frame incorporates virtually all the mobile suit's vital mechanisms--power systems, motors, hydraulics, avionics, thrusters, and pretty much everything else except weapons, armor, and propellant tanks. In earlier designs, the frame was mainly for structural support, with everything else bolted onto it and the armor wrapping everything up.

-- Mark
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Kosh wrote:Jesus, why does this thing about monocoque keep coming up?
Because it has been the accepted standard for at least 20 years and only recently have things changed, that's why.

Keep that text there archived for situations like this and simply post it back up when needed. Also, however frustrating it may get, keep a cool head when this comes up.
You've got solid evidence to support your claim so there is no need to sound like a ranting fanboy.
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EZero8 wrote:The early-mid UC MS clearly has exposed areas on them, often showing some of the inner parts and clearly showing use of the moveable frame. The most obvious example is the Hyaku Shiki, where the legs has the most minimal amount of armor covering it.
Would that mean that the Astray's from SEED have moveable frames or does it only apply to UC?
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Wingnut wrote:
Kosh wrote:Jesus, why does this thing about monocoque keep coming up?
Because it has been the accepted standard for at least 20 years and only recently have things changed, that's why.

Keep that text there archived for situations like this and simply post it back up when needed. Also, however frustrating it may get, keep a cool head when this comes up.
You've got solid evidence to support your claim so there is no need to sound like a ranting fanboy.
My apologies, it's just that I thought it was well-known, as well as long-established that it was not the case anymore. Plus, just thinking about it shows how ridiculous the idea is. A mobile suit made in monocoque fashion would simply crumble under the laws of physics, UC or no.
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I'm glad they retconned this bit of Gundam mechanics honestly. As Kosh stated, the 'shell' idea of monocoque frame never made much sense to me. I always wondered how Zakus were able to survive those high jumps they made without a skeletal frame supporting the entire MS.
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Simple...the armor was still thick and durable and held it all in and together. =)
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To me it's just stupid to think that mobile suits don't have some kind of shock absorption system in their lower half to lessen the effects of gravity on a 70+ ton mobile suit. What kind of device they would use in said situation is beyond me however.... :?
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When it comes to a MS truly having a near-full range of motion skeletal structure incorporated into the MS's that provides a damn near human-like range of motion response the only MS inside of official MSG Series that I can see are in Turn A and SEED. i.e.:

Turn A:
FLAT-L06D FLAT
MRC-U11D Walking Dumpling "WaD"

SEED:
TMF/A-802 BuCUE
TMF/A-803 LAGOWE

If you wish to add the XXXG-01SH2 Gundam Altron due to it's twin dragon fangs in it's arms you are free to do so.
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Actually, this retcon is news to me-I've always trusted MAHQ as my main source of information, and you know what that information says...
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Chris
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J-Lead wrote:Actually, this retcon is news to me-I've always trusted MAHQ as my main source of information, and you know what that information says...
And things change over time. I really stress against people citing MAHQ as the 100% be-all and end-all of Gundam information. Nearly all the UC profiles were written years ago by Burke Rukes, most of which haven't been updated in any serious way since 2001. In the world of Gundam, that's an eternity where lots of information can change. This issue with monocoque frames is an example of that.
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Chris wrote:
J-Lead wrote:Actually, this retcon is news to me-I've always trusted MAHQ as my main source of information, and you know what that information says...
And things change over time. I really stress against people citing MAHQ as the 100% be-all and end-all of Gundam information. Nearly all the UC profiles were written years ago by Burke Rukes, most of which haven't been updated in any serious way since 2001. In the world of Gundam, that's an eternity where lots of information can change. This issue with monocoque frames is an example of that.
There been any other big changes a passive/casual fan might not have noticed?
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Chris wrote:And things change over time. I really stress against people citing MAHQ as the 100% be-all and end-all of Gundam information. Nearly all the UC profiles were written years ago by Burke Rukes, most of which haven't been updated in any serious way since 2001. In the world of Gundam, that's an eternity where lots of information can change. This issue with monocoque frames is an example of that.
Hmmm, can't argue with you there, but this retcon seems to be a very subtle one, as many people everywhere are still citing early MS to use the Monocoque/Semi-Monocoque Frame (probably doing the sam thing I was, citing MAHQ.) Even a google search won't bring up any informative forum posts or information (period) on this. :( (The posts Kosh brought up were pretty helpful at least.)
Dean_the_Young wrote:There been any other big changes a passive/casual fan might not have noticed?
That's the thing, I try my best to keep up with the constant flux of information, yet I've never heard a whisper of this...
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Mark064
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This is just a problem of being english fans of a Japanese franchise where most of the info comes from the handful(?) of Japanese speaking fans. Since books are released constantly it's easy to miss out on a lot. So it's not uncommon to have a lot of misunderstandings in the community.
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I am sorry if I did not not clearified myself enough. When I stated an official MSG Series I meant an actualy endorsed MSG T.V. Series such as in U.C.'s case First Gundam, 08th MS Team, 0080WITP, 0083SDM, Zeta - ZZ, CCA, F91 and V Gundam. In AU case NMR Gundam W, AW0015 Gundam X, CC Turn A and C.E. SEED and Destiny. The reason I stated the usage of actual MSG TV Series is that you are able to see the MS's in combat from multiple vantage points as this also creates an extremely positve factor for discussion and debate.

This is also is a factor that plays a integral role in how many user that are apart of this forum use personal research, official MSG information resources along with reason and deduction in our process of finding the emulisifier between the base sciences of our modern era and the oil of theoritical technology in Mobile Suit Gundam. But I digress, in Turn A and SEED there are more MS that use a flexable homonid-like skeletal structures then in your average MS Gundam TV Series. In SEED the BuCUE LaGOWE and even the UMF-5 ZnO are perfect examples. In Turn there are numerous MS that use a spine like back structure.

Mono Frames at the time of the OYW would seem as a practical application and the EFF response to the PoZ's MS as they were also based upon this frame design and the EFF need MS's to be sent straight to the frontlines of combat to replace those that where lost in combat. So I imagine that EFF military MS engineers and scientists also saw this point about MonoFrame but realized that research would be better left until after the OYW had ended. Thus it would seem that this possible line of thought resulted in the beginning of the Gundam Development Project in 0081 or 0082 and it's tragic end in 0083.
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Kosh wrote:Plus, just thinking about it shows how ridiculous the idea is. A mobile suit made in monocoque fashion would simply crumble under the laws of physics, UC or no.
Uh, sorry, when did human skin start being made out of Luna Titanium? Or even High Tensile Steel?

Considering the structural implausibility of 18m tall giant robots of any design, it's not really fair to go "lolz, no skeleton=fail". When you're packing as thick of armour as OYW mobile suits were (especially when they were listed at say, 105 tonnes rather than 65 for the Gundam back in the early '80s), god knows making it structural is going to help you out a bunch. Even if it's not the primary load bearer, that damned near impenetrable Luna Titanium shell on the RX-78 would allow you to cut down the internal skeleton a ton. And guess what, that'd be a semi-monocoque.

A Zaku, well, that one could be harder to touch, but a monocoque doesn't necessarily mean the primary structure is the outer covering, even though that's the way it's been described in MS terms for the most part. If you look at say, a convertible with unibody (monocoque) construction, it'll probably only be the rear fenders of the frame that are visible as bodywork, plus the firewall and the rear bulkhead in the interiour. Depending on the kind of racecar, the only part of the tub out there might be the roof. It's not entirely out of suggestion for a Zaku's torso to be an exposed structural unit, while the rest is I dunno, some sort of hollow skeleton, where say, some of the actuators and such are inside as well as outside, while the armour is bolted on.


And just to jump back to downsized MS, even by cutting down the size of them by 3-5m+, the structural loads are actually reduced a lot. Possibly to the extent that thin armour was once again capable of providing some additional support. The F91's torso itself seems to be something of a semi-monocoque, with 2 large side bulkheads running from front all the way to the back of the thruster array. Same with the Strike and friends, for what it's worth.
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To understand the actual strength of Luna Titanium or Gundarium you would seem you would need to have the actual knowledge and measurements of the strength of the material per sq. meter and the impact tolerance tolerance of the material per p.s.i. From there, after taking into consideration the necessary systems that are needed for mounting critical internal systems, hydralic systems, acutators, etc. you could then decide how to construct the frame whether you desire monocogue or semi-monocogue frame.
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