Variable Fighters and mass production.

The future is now. This is the place for mecha and science.
Post Reply
Mafty
Posts: 1131
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:43 am

Variable Fighters and mass production.

So how many of the Variable Fighters in Macross could be considered mass produced, and how many were customized? There seem to be so many different Variable Fighters (each main character has their own) that its seems as though they wouldn't all be mass produced. So are they variants of the design(ie the Messiah in Frontier ) or just advanced prototypes?
User avatar
Dark Duel
Posts: 4833
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:39 pm
Location: A blue City in a red State

Re: Variable Fighters and mass production.

To the best of my recollection, as a general rule VFs fall into two mutually exclusive categories:

1: The current mass-production model unit fielded by the NUNS
2: Whatever the main characters are using, which is usually not the same unit. Generally speaking, these are usually not mass-produced machines.

The only exception is of course the original series, in which only ONE model of Variable Fighter - the original VF-1 - appears, and everybody is using variants of that one including the main characters.
It's been a few years since I watched some series, and I haven't seen all of them, but off the top of my head:

FRONTIER
The VF-25 is a trial unit that is undergoing evaluation as a potential new production model for the Frontier Fleet - it has not yet been formally accepted or mass-produced, and only a handful of units exist.
I don't think we ever see more than four in the series: The VF-25S piloted by Ozma, the VF-25G piloted by Michel, the RVF-25 piloted by Luca, and the VF-25F originally piloted by Henry Gilliam, which is later piloted by Alto.
The second movie shows three or four more in a more drab tan color scheme in the first scene to show the YF-29, but I don't remember ever actually seeing them being deployed. And the -29 itself is a bank-breakingly expensive one-off unit.
The VF-27 used by the Galaxy fleet is in the same boat - I don't think more than three or four of those units ever appear.
The only machine we see in Frontier that qualifies as a true mass-production model is the VF-171 Nightmare Plus used by the Frontier Fleet's regular NUNS pilots.

DELTA
I haven't watched Delta since its original release, but IIRC the NUNS regular forces are also seen using the VF-171 Plus, as in Delta, though in a tan color scheme rather than the dark blue seen in Frontier.
The VF-31 Kairos, as I understand it, is a similar beast to the VF-25 in Frontier; it's a newer model exclusively used by Xaos, which is an SMS-style PMC, and while a larger number of them are seen(I think Xaos has a couple of squadrons' worth of VF-31s), they're not, IMO, produced in more than limited numbers.
And the Siegfrieds are unique customized versions of the VF-31 which are only used by a single squadron.

PLUS
It's been a couple of years since I watched this one, but I do remember that the two main characters in Plus are explicitly not using mass-produced VFs because they're test pilots for two experimental units, the YF-19 and YF-21, one of which will eventually be selected as the next-generation of mass-produced VF by the NUNS.
IIRC, the only mass-produced VF in Plus is the VF-11 Thunderbolt.

There's a lot of really good, in-depth information in this thread
Last edited by Dark Duel on Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
// ART THREAD // NOT ACCEPTING REQUESTS

"You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but take a boat in the air you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turn of the worlds. Love keeps her in the air when she ought to fall down. Tells you she's hurting before she keens. Makes her a home."
User avatar
Seto Kaiba
Posts: 2230
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:18 pm
Contact:

Re: Variable Fighters and mass production.

Mafty wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:56 pm So how many of the Variable Fighters in Macross could be considered mass produced, and how many were customized? There seem to be so many different Variable Fighters (each main character has their own) that its seems as though they wouldn't all be mass produced. So are they variants of the design(ie the Messiah in Frontier ) or just advanced prototypes?
So, I guess my question to you would be what level of production would you consider to be mass production?

There are very few Variable Fighters in Macross which are truly custom aircraft in-universe. If we exclude the many custom air racers owned by civilians in the light novel Macross the Ride, that short list is comprised of just Sound Force's three custom VFs from Macross 7, the two custom YF-29s from Macross 30 used by Ozma and Isamu, and the five or so customized VF-31 Kairos units used by Delta Flight in Macross Delta. There are one of two units that are marginally customs, like the VF-11MAXL that's only available to aces and individually tuned to the tastes of the pilot it's built for or the Jamming Birds VF-11D... though both of those were production aircraft rather than aftermarket mods, and neither are truly unique aircraft.

Macross doesn't really go in for conventions like the "ace custom" unit, so apart from the few exceptions above all the characters you see are flying production or production-intent aircraft.

Looping back to my response to your question with a question, the reason I have to ask is because within a particular model's production run there will often be variants that have different production volumes. The standard variant(s) of that model are always the ones that are built in the greatest quantity, with special-purpose variants like the command variants or model conversion training variants built at far lower volumes. Some variants are locally developed by one government or another and only built in that one location like the VF-19EF Caliburn, while others are variants that had been built for some specific purposes that didn't pan out or were stopgaps implemented to cover up a deficiency the military found before a fully fleshed-out solution could be implemented.

Take the VF-1 Valkyrie as an example. Over 5,000 VF-1 Valkyries were built during its mass-production run in the late 2000s to mid-2010s (5,459 if you want to take Master File at its word). The overwhelming majority of those are VF-1A's. Special purpose variants like the VF-1S command specification, VT-1 Ostrich trainer, and VE-1 ELINT Seeker were made in far lower quantities. Then, of course, there are the stopgaps and failed concepts which were produced only early on and in small numbers like the VF-1D and VEFR-1 that were rushed into production because the finalized designs for recon and training variants weren't available yet or Shinnakasu of Japan's failed proposed competitor for main variant (the VF-1J). Some of those only ever had a few dozen units built in total.

To give another example, the VF-4 Lightning III had several variants optimized for atmospheric service meant for use aboard UN Navy ships that were produced in low quantities because they were not very good atmospheric fighters in practice.

As a special forces VF, the VF-17 was mass-produced but its production run totaled only 718 units.

The VF-19EF Caliburn developed by the Frontier government for its special forces had just 154, a minority of which are command variants and ELINT/AWACS variants.

Some designs were production-intent but never made it into actual mass production, making them not customs but a design with an extremely low production volume. The VF-22HG Schwalbe Zwei, for instance, was a Macross Galaxy-developed VF-22 variant that never left trial production and only four or so were ever built. The VF-9E is another good example of a failed concept that never left trial production, since its improved engine design was too much stress for the aircraft to handle it it had a disquieting tendency to break up in flight, leading to only a few trial production units being built before the plug was pulled.

As for the VF-25 you asked about, yeah... all of the variants seen in Macross Frontier are production-intent except the YF-25 prototype briefly visible in a hangar shot in the movies. The VF-25A is meant to be the main variant that the Frontier fleet's NUNS forces will adopt, and the four variants used by SMS's Skull Platoon are all special duty variants that'll be produced either in small batches or not at all like Ozma's command variant (VF-25S), Luca's recon and early warning variant (RVF-25), Michel's designated marksman variant (VF-25G), or Alto's reconnaissance-in-force variant (VF-25F). Thousands and thousands of VF-25As will be built, but they might only make a few dozen or a few hundred of those other variants.
The Macross Mecha Manual
Yes, we're working on updates...
User avatar
Seto Kaiba
Posts: 2230
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:18 pm
Contact:

Re: Variable Fighters and mass production.

Dark Duel wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:04 pm 2: Whatever the main characters are using, which is usually not the same unit. Generally speaking, these are usually not mass-produced machines.
Special Forces VFs like the VF-17, VF-19, or VF-22 are still mass production aircraft... they're just not produced in HUGE mass production lots like the Main Variable Fighters are.


Dark Duel wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:04 pm FRONTIER
The VF-25 is a trial unit that is undergoing evaluation as a potential new production model for the Frontier Fleet - it has not yet been formally accepted or mass-produced, and only a handful of units exist.
It's farther along than that... in Macross Frontier, SMS has been contracted by the Frontier New UN Forces to take care of what's essentially the final phase of acceptance testing (Operational Evaluation) before the VF-25 enters mass production and the process of transitioning the military to the new fighter begins.

Strategic Military Services took delivery of several dozen units. We see the Macross Quarter's hangars are full of them, and in the movies we're even shown they still have Chelsea Scarlett's YF-25 Prophecy aboard. Most of the SMS VF-25s we see are the general duty A-type, which Skull Platoon does not use.


Dark Duel wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:04 pm The VF-27 used by the Galaxy fleet is in the same boat - I don't think more than three or four of those units ever appear.
The VF-27 is already in early mass production at the time of Macross Frontier, though only a few squadrons were operational at the time things came to a head. Brera is actually a squadron leader, though we never see him with that squadron until the movies.


Dark Duel wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:04 pm DELTA
The VF-31 Kairos, as I understand it, is a similar beast to the VF-25 in Frontier; it's a newer model exclusively used by Xaos, which is an SMS-style PMC, and while a larger number of them are seen(I think Xaos has a couple of squadrons' worth of VF-31s), they're not, IMO, produced in more than limited numbers.
As is the case with the VF-25 in Frontier, Xaos are the technically-expendable mooks the local New UN Forces hired to carry out the final phases of acceptance testing on their new fighter before it rolls out to the military... becuase if the PMC schmucks die it's legally considered an accidental death, which means less red tape. Per Kawamori, the VF-31A's set to enter service with the Brisingr Alliance NUNS 2-3 years after the events of the series (2069-2070).

Onscreen indicators and dialog suggest Xaos is operating at least fifteen VF-31s in three five-man flights, one of which uses the customized Siegfried type instead of the trial production VF-31A Kairos.
The Macross Mecha Manual
Yes, we're working on updates...
Mafty
Posts: 1131
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:43 am

Re: Variable Fighters and mass production.

I do remember hearing that the SMS was sort of a testing ground for new prototype units, explaining why the group is made up of so many unique variants, also the team is made up of ace pilots anyway. As for Brera(SPOILER): he and his team are genetically enhanced super soldiers, so them having special machines to harness that power makes sense. Like the numerous Zeon Newtype based units in Gundam ( the VF-27 even has the Red Commander type and Green regular type). That being said since genetic engineering is supposed to be illegal in the Marcoss verse, would they end up mass producing VF-27 anyway? Or just keep as a secret, illegal unit?
User avatar
Seto Kaiba
Posts: 2230
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:18 pm
Contact:

Re: Variable Fighters and mass production.

Mafty wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:09 pm I do remember hearing that the SMS was sort of a testing ground for new prototype units, explaining why the group is made up of so many unique variants, also the team is made up of ace pilots anyway. [...]
Not prototypes.

What the Frontier Government hired the local branch of SMS to do was test the already-completed trial production VF-25s in actual combat conditions to ensure that their performance meets the requirements of the fleet's New UN Forces and iron out any remaining bugs/issues before the VF-25 enters mass production. The prototype phase was already over well before SMS was brought in.

The variants that Skull Platoon uses aren't unique, they're all production variants. When Alto's VF-25F is destroyed saving Luca in episode 7, he's assigned a new VF-25F in fairly short order.


Mafty wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:09 pm As for Brera(SPOILER): he and his team are genetically enhanced super soldiers, so them having special machines to harness that power makes sense.
Not genetically enhanced... cybernetically enhanced.

Almost everyone living in the Macross Galaxy fleet has cybernetic implants to some extent or another, mainly the "hook your brain up to the internet" kind which enables them to live in the fleet's augmented reality environment without issue. The Macross Galaxy Corporate Army, however, is breaking interstellar law by using cybernetically-enhanced soldiers. Brera and others like him have had their bodies reinforced to withstand the excessively high performance of the VF-27 that its ISC system can't protect them from fully. Their enhancements are primarily in the name of ensuring the VF-27's performance won't turn them into a flightsuit full of gazpacho and to facilitate the mind control the Macross Galaxy fleet's so-called Cyber Nobles use to control the populace.

(Not the most horrible thing Macross Galaxy has used cybernetics to do, by a long shot...)


Mafty wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:09 pm [...] would they end up mass producing VF-27 anyway? Or just keep as a secret, illegal unit?
The Macross Galaxy fleet was already mass-producing the VF-27 for the Macross Galaxy Corporate Army by 2059.

However, the Macross Galaxy fleet government failed to make the legally-required disclosures regarding the VF-27 so the New UN Forces pedantically consider it to still be the YF-27 even though it's already in production. As their agenda was rather selfish and the implants needed to safely operate a VF-27 are illegal, extremely expensive, and hard to come by, it's not sure if there was ever a plan on their part to export it to any other emigrant fleet.

(Variable Fighter Master File: VF-25 essentially asserts that the Galaxy fleet's participation in the Project Triangler joint development that produced the YF-25, YF-26, and YF-27 was in bad faith and that they were just looking to steal development data from the other fleets... which is how they completed the VF-27.)

A few VF-27s have been seen in the hands of operators outside the Macross Galaxy fleet, but only among wealthy and elite private citizens like Uroboros Hunter's Guild chairwoman Mei Leeron or Zelgaar Heavy Industries senior executive Ivan Tsari.


Mafty wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:09 pm Like the numerous Zeon Newtype based units in Gundam ( the VF-27 even has the Red Commander type and Green regular type).
Brera's VF-27γ is actually magenta, not red... and the standard γ command variant and β general duty variant are normally painted olive drab.

There's nothing custom about Brera's VF-27 except its paintjob. It's a completely stock γ variant, which is itself hardware-identical to the β variant but with tighter tunings. The difference is essentially cosmetic.
The Macross Mecha Manual
Yes, we're working on updates...
User avatar
Dark Duel
Posts: 4833
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:39 pm
Location: A blue City in a red State

Re: Variable Fighters and mass production.

Seto Kaiba wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:30 pm It's farther along than that... in Macross Frontier, SMS has been contracted by the Frontier New UN Forces to take care of what's essentially the final phase of acceptance testing (Operational Evaluation) before the VF-25 enters mass production and the process of transitioning the military to the new fighter begins.
Huh. Further along that I understood it to be. I guess that's my misunderstanding, and thanks for the correction.
// ART THREAD // NOT ACCEPTING REQUESTS

"You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but take a boat in the air you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turn of the worlds. Love keeps her in the air when she ought to fall down. Tells you she's hurting before she keens. Makes her a home."
Post Reply