Rick Dias and Nemo

[MythSearcher]

It's trying... but the amount of actual success it had is debatable at best.

The problem - or I guess you'd say failure of realism - here is that those minor design changes shouldn't each result in a new model or variant of Mobile Suit. What we should be seeing is these minor design improvements going into all newly-built MS's of that model and then retrofitted into older ones to bring them all up to the same standard of onboard systems and performance. That's how real world military vehicles are maintained and updated. You don't throw away dozens or hundreds of vehicles just because the manufacturer made some incremental enhancements to the design. You update the existing fleet in parallel with bringing in newly-built updated models.[/quote]

And can you give examples in which they failed?
The EFF mass-production units from older lines have pretty much entirely disappeared. What they are left with are either all labelled as the new model like in the case of 79C, 79R/179 and 86R, or units that are entirely different and cannot see the same upgrades, like the AQUA GM, Guntanks, etc.

For example, the only appreciable difference between the MS-06A Zaku II initial production type and MS-06C Zaku II early production type were design changes to its armor. Exterior armor plating was redesigned on the shoulders in anticipation of combat against enemy Mobile Suits, and radiation shielding was installed around the cockpit. It didn't change the actual design of the MS itself in any way. They're hardware-identical, but they're treated as two separate variants by official material with it even being said the MS-06A's were scrapped after the C-type entered production. If handled realistically, these should be the MS-06A Block 1 and MS-06A Block respectively. The same is broadly true of the MS-06F, which differed from the preceding C-type only in the removal of the anti-radiation measures, the installation of a slightly improved generator, an improved fire control system, and some improved shock absorption around the cockpit. All in all, relatively minor design changes while most of the MS remained exactly the same. It really ought to have been MS-06A Block 3. It's not until you get to the weird customizations like the MS-06FZ or MS-06F2 where you start getting design differences significant enough to be designated as an entirely different variant.

Maybe they just never got into setting up such details about each small block because most people won't really care about those and the company can never sell something with exactly the same appearance and no detail changes.
Yeah, I will not buy a GM A block 11 and then buy a GM A block 12 with no apparent difference. On the other hand, the GM Command and the GM Command space at least have a different backpack.
And the Dom and Rick Dom is already gaining enough hate, I doubt they want to do a Dom block 52 which basically look the same as Dom block 43.

The closest to the block number is the RX-78-2, which you really only have 8 units following this convention.
G-1 was never mentioned if it received the upgrade or not. G-2 was the first RX-78-2, G-3 was a RX-78-2 at roll out and upgraded to RX-78-3, G-2 is upgraded to the RX-78-3 configuration with the MC upgrade but they never really mentioned why they didn't renumber it to RX-78-3.
G04~G06 are RX-78-4~6 for individual testing and obviously they didn't get to survive the testing so the whole batch of RX-78's can be upgraded. G07 was only finished after the war and with its own testing of the RX-78-7 configuration.
RX-78XX isn't even an official configuration but only machine built with left over parts.

That's kinda my point... the Federation has a lot of cases where the same damn Mobile Suit is treated as being an entirely different variant based purely on incidental optional hardware, which is wildly incorrect by any rational standard.

You can give a sniper rifle to a regular GM can call it a GM sniper, but the GM Sniper Custom does have its own differences in which you really can't just randomly take it and put on another GM.
The 79FP is a unit where they take the 79F and added things you really can't just randomly remove.

It shouldn't be hard to find an example that they just gave it an optional weapon and labelled it as a new variant it they have a lot of cases doing so?

The problem here is that I doubt you can find any such case because they like to just draw a new picture for each variant and it would be most beneficial to make slight changes on the models so people will buy them. They also went into enough lengths to describe how each of these are different.

They are at least in the range of Stryker modular difference, not some incidental optional hardware.

...the Tri-Service system that Gundam's own designation systems are modeled on.

This might be a speculation on your own but
Gundam's designation system isn't really modelled on that.
The EFF designation is a very simple Renbou eXperimental/Gundam Mass-production + the year it started development + variant.
It doesn't follow anything like the Tri-service system.

If we look at NT-1, the designation of RX-78NT-1 and RX-78NT-1FA shows that the FA isn't really a variant but an indication of it wearing its full armour.
Similar ideas go for the F90, the letter after it just indicates the equipment instead of that being a variant. The Roman numerals II or III after F90 is the machine number of it.(though II and III are upgraded from I, you can say they are)

The closest to the M numbers used on tanks in a much later time, namely MS Igloo 2 where the only tank to get a real M number is the M61A5.

Anything before that are following the Japanese designation system where they just call it Type [year]. Well, of course it is exactly because they have a Type 61, and also a Type 74 for the JDF...

The closest Gundam ever gets to the M numbers is the League Militaire's designation system... though it does seem to imply that the original Victory Gundam is actually the fourth revision of the model 312 (LM312V04) and that the Victory 2 is the 21st revision of the model 314 (LM314V21).

No.
The V Gundam designation is completely different.
The 1st of the three digit number shows components, for V and V2 that's 3 for Upper, Core and Lower parts.
The 2nd shows the number of generators, both have one.
The 3rd shows the number of main thrusters, V have 2 and V2 have 4.
The letter after that is the series of the MS, for V and V2 the series is V, for the GunEZ and Gun Blaster the series is E.
The two digit number after it is the model type and then the registration number of that type.(not necessarily a variant, seems to be just the load-out type)
So as an example, the LM111E02 Gun EZ is a LM MS with a single component, single reactor and single main thruster E series model and 2nd on the registry.

I have no idea what model is the V1 because they never specify that.(V is V0 and V2 is V2.)

Also, V2AB are always equipments, but the Gundam Fandom, probably due to coding restraints, call those variantsin the info-box, which is not really official naming convention.
Similarly, S, Ex-S, S[Bst] are all weapon load-outs and not variants.

If I were going to pick a pair of GMs that actually meet the level of similarity for block revision it'd be the RGM-79 Early Type and RGM-79 production type... the [E] and [A] respectively. Designated correctly, the [E] is their trial production lot then it should be RGM-79A Block 0 and the actual production type should be RGM-79A Block 1.

If you use the American designation system, yes.
But pretty sure they did not base their designation system on that.

Notice the RX-78 was used just because Kunio's favourite car is the RX-7 and they only formed the whole numbering system around that.

The 79A for the early type and B later type are also retcon from the 79C.
The [E] was before that retcon and at the time we know RGM-79, and we know it includes both early type and late types. [E] was placed after the RGM-79 to indicate it is an early unit. So technically the indication is showing that it is a 79A.

I'm not sure I'd say the revisions in the GM II and GM III are minor enough to be block updates, but they're definitely close enough that all three should still be considered RGM-79 variants instead of being issued separate models as they were (the GM II being RMS-179 and the GM III being RGM-86).

The GM II official EFF designation is 79R, the RMS-179 designation was because of EFF having so many different models in development during the Gryps war they needed another designation to distinguish them instead of having 15 RX-85s, 20 RX-86s, 30 RX-87s and 25 RX-88s. Since the number of development reduced by a lot, that designation never stick around and got ditched pretty fast by 0089.

About if they are minor enough, well, at least you cannot just take an F-15 and just upgrade it to an F-22, not can you take an M26 and upgrade it to an M1, so I guess you can say those are minor enough? At least they are not completely new models.

Technically, it is... that's why it's treated as a new category of vehicle, and why Mobile Armors are similarly given their own separate category. Mobile Suits may be made for different purposes, but fundamentally they belong to one single category.

The same goes for warplanes, tracked vehicles, military helicopters.
Having many purposes make it so that you get many variants doing many different things.
You can maybe use a GM with a bazooka to stand in for an artillery unit, but the GM Cannon still does that better.

[Deacon Blues]

If we are to take some of the older MSV background material with any sort of authenticity, we're told that the AEUG was forced to choose between two mobile suits. The Rick Dias was unable to keep up with mass production, so that's one reason why it had to go. There was the Marasai and the Nemo. Well, we all know the Marasai went to the Titans (despite being meant for the AEUG), so that left the Nemo. The Nemo shared common parts with the GM II, and since there were over 10K of those produced (so the publication claims at the time), it's not like there was a shortage of parts, so it could be mass-produced.

[Mafty]

Totally makes sense the Marasai was meant for the AEUG, it's even painted in Char's colors. The Rick Dias is a heavy unit, and those often seemed to be either difficult or expensive to mass produce. As for the Nemo you can definitely see the GM influence, as it basically looks like a Green GM.

[yazi88]

Nemo itself is actually part of the GM family. In some reference books in the past decade, it is officially part of the GM family legacy, especially heavily being based on the GM II.

[Seto Kaiba]

And can you give examples in which they failed?

The RGM-79C didn't really stop the proliferation of large numbers of variants... it just became the basis for a new wave of variant proliferation.

As to the fates of the pre-RGM-79C types... most are left unsaid, though one or two of the lesser variants mention being scrapped when the C type became available in a manner similar to the MS-06A.

Maybe they just never got into setting up such details about each small block because most people won't really care about those and the company can never sell something with exactly the same appearance and no detail changes.

From a real world perspective? Absolutely. The reason we have eleventy billion different variants which are all designated the same is to milk the fans for gunpla sales. Mind you, that hasn't stopped Bandai from selling tons and tons of different GM and Zaku kits with minor cosmetic differences.

(Works for other franchises too... Macross has had no real trouble selling the Block 5 and Block 6 versions of the VF-1 Valkyrie separately as toys, kits, etc. and the only difference there besides paint is the cockpit interior and the shape of the hands.)

Yeah, I will not buy a GM A block 11 and then buy a GM A block 12 with no apparent difference. On the other hand, the GM Command and the GM Command space at least have a different backpack.

So... that's part of what I'm getting at. The GM Command and GM Command Space shouldn't be two different MS's when the only significant difference between them is the backpack, which is modular and removable hardware.

The closest to the block number is the RX-78-2, which you really only have 8 units following this convention.
G-1 was never mentioned if it received the upgrade or not. G-2 was the first RX-78-2, G-3 was a RX-78-2 at roll out and upgraded to RX-78-3, G-2 is upgraded to the RX-78-3 configuration with the MC upgrade but they never really mentioned why they didn't renumber it to RX-78-3.

Sort of... some of the differences between the different specifications of the RX-78 really are severe enough for them to be considered different variants. But at least for the first three, it's basically the closest they got to a proper block number system.

I had a theory about why Unit 2 was never properly referred to as RX-78-3 after its upgrade, but the resources I have shot it down... indicating it did in fact receive the full array of RX-78 Specification 3 updates including the reactor refinements.

This might be a speculation on your own but
Gundam's designation system isn't really modelled on that.
The EFF designation is a very simple Renbou eXperimental/Gundam Mass-production + the year it started development + variant.
It doesn't follow anything like the Tri-service system.

Zeon follows it more closely, but both sides are using designation systems loosely modeled on the Tri-Service system when it comes to variant designations. The Federation does, at least in some cases, use the year in a manner vaguely similar to the IJA Long Type system from the 1930s and 40's, but it's formatted like US Tri-Service and does variants and specification changes like Tri-Service instead.

[Deacon Blues]

This might be a speculation on your own but
Gundam's designation system isn't really modelled on that.
The EFF designation is a very simple Renbou eXperimental/Gundam Mass-production + the year it started development + variant.
It doesn't follow anything like the Tri-service system.

The number doesn't always reflect the year development started, though. For example, the RX-99 didn't start development in 0099.

[Seto Kaiba]

The number doesn't always reflect the year development started, though. For example, the RX-99 didn't start development in 0099.

It's wrong for most of them... because the IJA Long Type designation system that is referenced in the designations of the Federation's Gundams and GM series machines uses the last two digits of the year it entered service. It's pretty much just those two lines that do it, and even they have a fair number of misses as well like the RX-75, RX-77, and RX-78.

Of course, if Gundam were actually following that there wouldn't be variant letters at all. The RGM-79 initial production type wouldn't be RGM-79A, it'd be Type-79 Mobile Suit Model 01.

Arbitrary model numbering based on the US Tri-Service system is used for every other line.

[MythSearcher]

The RGM-79C didn't really stop the proliferation of large numbers of variants... it just became the basis for a new wave of variant proliferation.

As to the fates of the pre-RGM-79C types... most are left unsaid, though one or two of the lesser variants mention being scrapped when the C type became available in a manner similar to the MS-06A.

My point is none of them are actually mass-produced.
Yes, you get the 79CR and SR and the Powered, but those aren't mass-produced.
I don't think we ever get any variants mass-produced other than 79N and 79Q.
Surely those two are acceptably different from the 79C?

And the only pre-79C variants of RGM-79 we see after the introduction of 79C are the 79SC(Zeta) and SP(Anaheim report, used by Titans with 79Q upgrades but still labelled as 79SP) variants, both are sniper variants that really aren't that compatible with the standardisation?

From a real world perspective? Absolutely. The reason we have eleventy billion different variants which are all designated the same is to milk the fans for gunpla sales. Mind you, that hasn't stopped Bandai from selling tons and tons of different GM and Zaku kits with minor cosmetic differences.

(Works for other franchises too... Macross has had no real trouble selling the Block 5 and Block 6 versions of the VF-1 Valkyrie separately as toys, kits, etc. and the only difference there besides paint is the cockpit interior and the shape of the hands.)

That is why I am saying they don't have the block settings and the variants in UC are mostly major enough to get them at least a few added nozzles.

So... that's part of what I'm getting at. The GM Command and GM Command Space shouldn't be two different MS's when the only significant difference between them is the backpack, which is modular and removable hardware.

And that is what I am getting at when I mentioned the Stryker. If the different variations of the Stryker can carry different designations, then it should also be acceptable for these modular changes to accept different designations as they signify different purposes.
Also, the backpack is likely not simply removable like the guns and shields. Yes, we can simply remove it on a model but with the generators and such on the MS it is likely more complicated than that.

Sort of... some of the differences between the different specifications of the RX-78 really are severe enough for them to be considered different variants. But at least for the first three, it's basically the closest they got to a proper block number system.

I had a theory about why Unit 2 was never properly referred to as RX-78-3 after its upgrade, but the resources I have shot it down... indicating it did in fact receive the full array of RX-78 Specification 3 updates including the reactor refinements.

Most of the time the sources are pretty contradicting in this. They never get to wrap their heads around the idea of the numbering of the first 2 units being G-1~3 and mostly use the RX-78-1~3 to indicate the 3 units with the exception of G-3.
They seem to be perfectly fine with the G04~6 numbering of the 2nd batch though.

Zeon follows it more closely, but both sides are using designation systems loosely modeled on the Tri-Service system when it comes to variant designations. The Federation does, at least in some cases, use the year in a manner vaguely similar to the IJA Long Type system from the 1930s and 40's, but it's formatted like US Tri-Service and does variants and specification changes like Tri-Service instead.

Since it is not THE tri-service numbering, we should not assume it is. So using it is based on that to try to say that the designation doesn't make sense because it does not follow the tri-service system isn't really a valid point.
Using the 79G and GS as an example, the designation give you full information on whether the unit is used in colonies or in space. It works.

[MythSearcher]

Totally makes sense the Marasai was meant for the AEUG, it's even painted in Char's colors. The Rick Dias is a heavy unit, and those often seemed to be either difficult or expensive to mass produce. As for the Nemo you can definitely see the GM influence, as it basically looks like a Green GM.

Real world reason is that they made a mistake. Originally in the anime Marasai was meant to be given to the AEUG, but communication error and the monoeye=enemy concept led to the animators thinking it was a Titans(enemy) MS and thus mistakenly assigned it as such. So they added that idea to the settings and claim that the development of the unit was discovered by Titans and AE chose to give it to the Titans to get away with it.

[Dark Duel]

And then Define took the idea even further when they stated, IIRC, that the Marasai was basically a reskinned Rick Dias that was sold to the Titans by Anaheim.

[Mafty]

I'd never heard about the production mix-up before, but it makes sense. The unit does have the Zeon Monoeye thing going on, and even its design looks kinda like a cross between the Zaku and Geara Doga. Again this makes sense given that a number of the AEUG members were actually former Zeon soldiers, so a design influence in their unit seems probable.

[Chris]

And then Advance of Zeta comes along and messes everything up by having the RX-107 Rosette, a predecessor to the Marasai, used by the Titans Test Team.

[MythSearcher]

And then Advance of Zeta comes along and messes everything up by having the RX-107 Rosette, a predecessor to the Marasai, used by the Titans Test Team.

Not necessarily messing everything.
There are multiple ways to rationalise how Titans got to it as early as the development plans, or the original Marasai had a different head but they used a Rossette head as a disguise just in case and the cover-up ended as being a reasonable precaution they took.

[JEFFPIATT]

For why the Dias line got canned it was the fact it looked to Zeonic for the AEUG vsame reasion they dropped the Marasai for the Nemo. the Nemo is basically a MP GM sniper II unit with zeonic parts inside. the major reasion it's more attractive to the cash strapped AEUG is the fact it can use any weapion made for the RGM line and RMS lines since it uses both GM II beam rifles and the Rick dias beam sabers and clay bassuka. in theory it could grab any MS weapon made for Federal spec suits and older zeon equipment salvage. This concept is reused by Malfy

really the only reason we had only the newer mook suits in older works was the cost of drawing multi-able line art in when it was easyer to photocopy the same GM or Zaku and scale them so some how a zeon rebel group in 0083 had only the latest gen refit units of zeon ms and managed to have no ships with lower spec or any FZ units. the Book version had both sides using more varied equiptment with the zeon forces having more selection of zaku models.

[MythSearcher]

For why the Dias line got canned it was the fact it looked to Zeonic for the AEUG vsame reasion they dropped the Marasai for the Nemo. the Nemo is basically a MP GM sniper II unit with zeonic parts inside. the major reasion it's more attractive to the cash strapped AEUG is the fact it can use any weapion made for the RGM line and RMS lines since it uses both GM II beam rifles and the Rick dias beam sabers and clay bassuka. in theory it could grab any MS weapon made for Federal spec suits and older zeon equipment salvage. This concept is reused by Malfy

really the only reason we had only the newer mook suits in older works was the cost of drawing multi-able line art in when it was easyer to photocopy the same GM or Zaku and scale them so some how a zeon rebel group in 0083 had only the latest gen refit units of zeon ms and managed to have no ships with lower spec or any FZ units. the Book version had both sides using more varied equiptment with the zeon forces having more selection of zaku models.

As AE is making MS for everyone, and can tweak Gundam Mk-II to use their own Beam Rifle, I suspect they did a lot of standardisation and their MS can basically use everything from everyone, either as good as an auto adaption, or, in case of a more sensitive(touchy) IFF system that will lock the weapon from use if an incorrect signal is sent(which is unlikely because that means all your troops may face the embarrassing moment on the field where they are locked from using their own weapons if the lock is too easily triggered), they can always just have a software selection by the pilot.

[JEFFPIATT]

For why the Dias line got canned it was the fact it looked to Zeonic for the AEUG vsame reasion they dropped the Marasai for the Nemo. the Nemo is basically a MP GM sniper II unit with zeonic parts inside. the major reasion it's more attractive to the cash strapped AEUG is the fact it can use any weapion made for the RGM line and RMS lines since it uses both GM II beam rifles and the Rick dias beam sabers and clay bassuka. in theory it could grab any MS weapon made for Federal spec suits and older zeon equipment salvage. This concept is reused by Malfy

really the only reason we had only the newer mook suits in older works was the cost of drawing multi-able line art in when it was easyer to photocopy the same GM or Zaku and scale them so some how a zeon rebel group in 0083 had only the latest gen refit units of zeon ms and managed to have no ships with lower spec or any FZ units. the Book version had both sides using more varied equiptment with the zeon forces having more selection of zaku models.

As AE is making MS for everyone, and can tweak Gundam Mk-II to use their own Beam Rifle, I suspect they did a lot of standardisation and their MS can basically use everything from everyone, either as good as an auto adaption, or, in case of a more sensitive(touchy) IFF system that will lock the weapon from use if an incorrect signal is sent(which is unlikely because that means all your troops may face the embarrassing moment on the field where they are locked from using their own weapons if the lock is too easily triggered), they can always just have a software selection by the pilot.

well by CCA they don't bother making different handplugs the Neo zeon MS and Federal units are cross compatable. hence by Unicorn the Federal government seed funded the SNRI MS design Bureau so they had some loyal competition.

[MythSearcher]

well by CCA they don't bother making different handplugs the Neo zeon MS and Federal units are cross compatable. hence by Unicorn the Federal government seed funded the SNRI MS design Bureau so they had some loyal competition.

Yes, but that kinda contradicts the EFF wanting to leave the Zeon remnants alone so they have some enemy to prevent them from disbanding.
SNRI seems to be more of a "if we are funding someone, might as well be our own guys" type of mentality.

[Kuruni]

.
SNRI seems to be more of a "if we are funding someone, might as well be our own guys" type of mentality.

Huh? I think SNRI become manufacturer themselves when they realize how Anaheim become incompetent as a developer, after they took so long to made the Heavygun and it's essentially just a smaller Jegan.

[MythSearcher]

Huh? I think SNRI become manufacturer themselves when they realize how Anaheim become incompetent as a developer, after they took so long to made the Heavygun and it's essentially just a smaller Jegan.

Considering most of the final mass-production units are still designed and developed by AE (all those RGM), I'd say they are still pretty competent, just that EF isn't competent enough to pay for better toys.

[Mafty]

True while the Gundams are easily the most powerful Federation units, their mass produced units leave something to be desired, especially compared to any enemy faction. When you get right down to it ,it seems as though the Jesta and the Gustav Karl are the most powerful mass produced/limited production MS in the Federation. As Myth Searcher said this probably comes down to the economics of the Federation. All the enemy factions are conveniently well funded enough to get top of the line Mass Produced and Custom MS, while aside from the Gundams, the Federation's budget leaves them with older or lower quality MS.