Coordinators and Biological CPU's

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Mafty
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Coordinators and Biological CPU's

So I know that Coordinators are genetically engineered, but how exactly does that work? Are all Coordinators born in a lab? ?Are they massed cloned like in Macross? Or are later generations born to Coordinator parents? The cloning question is because in some series the different Coordinatiors look and act like the Coordinators in the main series (ie Ergnes Brahe (Yzak) and Nahe Herschel (Dearka) in Delta Astray).

As for the Biological CPU's how long did the project last anyway? It seems at first that the three "Boosted Men" (Orga, Clotho and Shani) were conditioned at an older age due to the outbreak of war. However later on we see other CPUs who have been trained since childhood (Stellar, Sting, Auel, Mudie, Shams and Sven).
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Arsarcana
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Re: Coordinators and Biological CPU's

Do you remember the whole explanation in SEED for why Kira is called the 'Ultimate Coordinator'? It's because Coordinators are engineered at the earliest stages of development before being returned to their mothers' womb. Because that's not a completely controlled environment, the children don't always turn out exactly how their parents intended. Kira by contrast developed in an artificial womb where all variables were controlled and so he came out exactly as Ulen wanted him to. The genetic modifications that make a person a Coordinator are passed down to successive generations so unless further specific changes are desired a Coordinator parent doesn't need to do anything special to ensure that their own children are born Coordinators.

As for the Biological CPUs, I don't think we're told exactly when the project started, but clearly early enough that the three Extended from GSD went through the program. The Boosted Men seem like they were a stopgap because the Federation wanted better pilots now and they didn't care how unstable they were.
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John-Luck Pickerd
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Re: Coordinators and Biological CPU's

I don't think sponsor nations (later the Alliance) have any biological CPU before the war. Why would it? Plant was under control back then, and mobile suits doesn't even exist. Compared to Plant, the sponsor nations would be more worried about each other.

I'd chalk up the age thing to animation issue or chronology mistake.
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MythSearcher
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Re: Coordinators and Biological CPU's

Arsarcana wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 12:36 pm Do you remember the whole explanation in SEED for why Kira is called the 'Ultimate Coordinator'? It's because Coordinators are engineered at the earliest stages of development before being returned to their mothers' womb. Because that's not a completely controlled environment, the children don't always turn out exactly how their parents intended. Kira by contrast developed in an artificial womb where all variables were controlled and so he came out exactly as Ulen wanted him to.
That, still produced numerous of failures that aren't completely like the blueprints.(Hint: Astray Gold's pilot)
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Re: Coordinators and Biological CPU's

Arsarcana wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 12:36 pm As for the Biological CPUs, I don't think we're told exactly when the project started, but clearly early enough that the three Extended from GSD went through the program. The Boosted Men seem like they were a stopgap because the Federation wanted better pilots now and they didn't care how unstable they were.
I always found Gundam Seed very interesting since it shows us what a world might look like when we start modifying humans to be better soldiers. It's not as evocative and well thought as you'd see in Neuromancer or even Deus Ex for a more modern example but certainly fascinating for a Gundam story.

In particular seeing one nation resort to drugs and biological enhancements to make their warriors on-par with the enemy nation and the consequences of doing so. In UC we have Cyber-Newtypes but their main flaws are generally instability or mental breakdowns, in SEED we have these very visceral depictions of the side effects of the drugs and/or biological enhancements and the dehumanizing rhetoric like biological computers.

Still the juxtaposition isn't flawless. The story would be more compelling if these boosted men/bio CPUs had an extreme edge. But it's hard to look at that and think "yeah that's a worthwhile sacrifice" when you've got an entire species of nu-humans in the colonies/PLANTS who perfected genetic modifications to allow them to have children with drastically superior physical and mental skills with very, very low rate of consequences.

It's a great premise in SEED, it just suffers because they portray genetic engineering as this amazing science with almost no downsides or tradeoffs. So it makes the (mostly) worldwide rampant hatred of coordinators seem like just a writing fiat instead of a logical progression. Settings with mankind just beginning to implement genetic engineering or bio/cybernetic modifications are ripe with conflict of ideologies and the necessity of it. In my opinion SEED seemed to sidestep most of that.

Just an observation, I'm not sure how I'd modify SEED's story to capture more of that ideological conflict.
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MythSearcher
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Re: Coordinators and Biological CPU's

Underrated GM Custom wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 12:52 pm In UC we have Cyber-Newtypes but their main flaws are generally instability or mental breakdowns
It seems like the Cyber-Newtypes aren't unstable because of their enhancement, but because of all the brain washing in order to control them. Their memories are modified to such discrepancies that a slight relation to the power word will cause confusion in them, like Rosemia's "Brother", whom she can remember existed but don't know who he is. The later they appear in the timeline, the more stable they are(especially when they aren't created from a inhumane project), and at the point of Iron Mask, seems to be stable and just regular.
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Seto Kaiba
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Re: Coordinators and Biological CPU's

MythSearcher wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 9:55 pm It seems like the Cyber-Newtypes aren't unstable because of their enhancement, but because of all the brain washing in order to control them. Their memories are modified to such discrepancies that a slight relation to the power word will cause confusion in them, like Rosemia's "Brother", whom she can remember existed but don't know who he is. The later they appear in the timeline, the more stable they are(especially when they aren't created from a inhumane project), and at the point of Iron Mask, seems to be stable and just regular.
So... I did a little digging in the old Entertainment Bibles, Gundam Officials, and some other books and they seem to go both ways on this one to almost a "depends on the author" level.

Descriptions of early Cyber Newtypes produced by the Federation's Murasume Institute and Zeon's Flannigan Institute like Zero and Four Murasume mostly lean towards the idea that the process of making a Cyber Newtype is initially an imprecise process that is all but guaranteed to induce at least some level of mental and emotional instability. There is some implication that the level of instability may relate to the level of invasiveness needed to unlock the newtype abilities in the subject and increases the probability and severity of memory loss. It's indicated that the addition of invasive mind control on top of that makes the instability worse, especially if they become aware of their unnatural or intrusive thoughts... something greatly exacerbated by Newtype resonance.

As time goes on, they presumably get better at enhancing people without completely BSoD-ing their brains.
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MythSearcher
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Re: Coordinators and Biological CPU's

Seto Kaiba wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 11:26 pm So... I did a little digging in the old Entertainment Bibles, Gundam Officials, and some other books and they seem to go both ways on this one to almost a "depends on the author" level.
Yes, they didn't seem to have stated specifically what caused the instability in Zeta, so authors are up to their own interpretation.
As time goes on, they presumably get better at enhancing people without completely BSoD-ing their brains.
As time goes on for both in-universe and out-universe, it seems like more authors like to use the interpretation of enhancement by itself isn't that damaging and it is always the fault of the people trying to control them that is causing more trouble.
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Re: Coordinators and Biological CPU's

Seto Kaiba wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 11:26 pm As time goes on, they presumably get better at enhancing people without completely BSoD-ing their brains.
Indeed, I believe Gyunei is the most stable Cyber-Newtype we see in UC.
Mafty
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Re: Coordinators and Biological CPU's

It's hard to say really what happens, largely because the exact nature of making an Cyber-Newtype is vague at best. In some series it seems as though the people are conditioned by a machine (Elpeo in ZZ, Loni and Marida in Unicorn) in other series they seem to surgically alter the persons brain in order to increase their power ( Rita in Narrative, yes I know she was a Newtype before), and often characters just disappear and return with Newtype power with no clue as to how the process works.

Also even in later periods it seems that the Cyber-Newtypes are still unstable (Fuala and Katejina in Victory Gundam).
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Seto Kaiba
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Re: Coordinators and Biological CPU's

Underrated GM Custom wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 10:04 am Indeed, I believe Gyunei is the most stable Cyber-Newtype we see in UC.
Hands down. He's almost normal.


Mafty wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 11:15 am It's hard to say really what happens, largely because the exact nature of making an Cyber-Newtype is vague at best. In some series it seems as though the people are conditioned by a machine (Elpeo in ZZ, Loni and Marida in Unicorn) in other series they seem to surgically alter the persons brain in order to increase their power ( Rita in Narrative, yes I know she was a Newtype before), and often characters just disappear and return with Newtype power with no clue as to how the process works.
The process is all but completely undescribed in the printed materials... and while Gihren's Ambition presents the Flannigan Institute as having acquired its process data from Zero Murasume who leaked it on purpose, there's no indication that any two Newtype labs are actually using the same process either. Given that the results vary a lot on an individual basis these may be individually-tailored treatment programs with no new cyber-newtypes receiving the same regimen.


Mafty wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 11:15 am Also even in later periods it seems that the Cyber-Newtypes are still unstable (Fuala and Katejina in Victory Gundam).
Katejina was only a cyber-newtype in the novelization and Fuala's status is never clarified.

Both women are implied, in their respective original materials, to be legitimate Newtypes who simply weren't playing with a full deck due to personal circumstances.
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MythSearcher
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Re: Coordinators and Biological CPU's

Mafty wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 11:15 am It's hard to say really what happens, largely because the exact nature of making an Cyber-Newtype is vague at best. In some series it seems as though the people are conditioned by a machine (Elpeo in ZZ, Loni and Marida in Unicorn) in other series they seem to surgically alter the persons brain in order to increase their power ( Rita in Narrative, yes I know she was a Newtype before), and often characters just disappear and return with Newtype power with no clue as to how the process works.

Also even in later periods it seems that the Cyber-Newtypes are still unstable (Fuala and Katejina in Victory Gundam).
Elpeo Ple is not a cyber NT, she is a regular NT but her clones are enhanced humans(cyber NT)
The Japanese term 強化人間 is pretty vague by itself, it is a generic Sci-fi term and literal translation is enhance human.
You can most definitely enhance a regular NT, so there is no contradiction in that.
Also, "enhance" is also viewed differently by different people in-universe. I don't remember who said it, but a character in Unicorn actually viewed Banagher as not a regular NT(hinting him to be an enhanced human) just because he was given a simulator to play with when he was little.
Also, the term didn't appear until Zeta Gundam, but we can all be pretty sure that Zeon definitely did a lot of experiments and of course they would have used inhumane methods to trigger the awakening of psychommu powers as well, those are likely the origins of enhancement technologies but you don't see anyone from OYW called enhanced humans other than the pretty recent MSV-R Return of JR.
Also, enhancement is not limited to psychommu powers. Twilight Axis had enhanced human being able to survive 300g acceleration, as old as Zeta, Four Murasame could lift Kamille single handedly(literal) and in ZZ, Chara Soon was showed to have physical powers to tear off an arm from a human wearing a normal suit.
The most detailed(but still not quite detail enough) description of enhancement technology is from Ecole du Ciel, you can see the facility Erisia Nocton got in and most of them are monitored with presumably similar enhancement methods like special diet and training. Only a selected few get medication and I don't recall if they did surgical treatment or not(seems like they didn't) Some in that manga also seem to think Asuna as enhanced (not natural) because she used a simulator.
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Re: Coordinators and Biological CPU's

Seto Kaiba wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 2:52 pm Katejina was only a cyber-newtype in the novelization and Fuala's status is never clarified.

Both women are implied, in their respective original materials, to be legitimate Newtypes who simply weren't playing with a full deck due to personal circumstances.
That one surprised me, I didn't realize Katejina was a cyber-newtype in one version. Then again I never understood her heel face turn in general for suddenly joining the guys. Just a few screws loose I guess. Was the novelization written before or after the show?
MythSearcher wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 9:40 pm Also, enhancement is not limited to psychommu powers. Twilight Axis had enhanced human being able to survive 300g acceleration, as old as Zeta, Four Murasame could lift Kamille single handedly(literal) and in ZZ, Chara Soon was showed to have physical powers to tear off an arm from a human wearing a normal suit.
I don't recall anything about that in the Twilight Axis mini-series. I'm guessing that was in the novel?

As for the UC Strength enhancements, I had forgotten about Four doing that. Human Enhancements, specifically physical ones, are definitely touched upon more in SEED, where Coordinators tend to be on average a bit more coordinated (pardon the pun) and stronger than the average person. Kira seems to have no problem overpowering his peers, same for the ZAFT soldiers.

Come to think of it, did the show provide any background info on how the Boosted men are well, boosted. My most vivid memories are the hard drug crashes they have that limit their combat duration, but I don't recall if they talk about any exceptional training or experimental surgery they may have had. I don't think Stargazer touched on it either.
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Re: Coordinators and Biological CPU's

Underrated GM Custom wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 5:25 pm
Come to think of it, did the show provide any background info on how the Boosted men are well, boosted. My most vivid memories are the hard drug crashes they have that limit their combat duration, but I don't recall if they talk about any exceptional training or experimental surgery they may have had. I don't think Stargazer touched on it either.
The season 1 druggies? Well since atleast one of them came from Londonia lab, he is subjected to whatever training, human surgery, drugs and live-fire combat that place have. Been a while since I saw the show. But I recall they went briefly through what the place was doing to the kids.
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Re: Coordinators and Biological CPU's

Gotcha so it sounds like most of their enhancement is off screen and intentionally left vague for the viewer.
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Re: Coordinators and Biological CPU's

Underrated GM Custom wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 10:51 am Gotcha so it sounds like most of their enhancement is off screen and intentionally left vague for the viewer.
Works better that way, because it's implied to be incredibly inhumane and so on... and having to wonder at it makes it scarier than knowing what it is.
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Re: Coordinators and Biological CPU's

Underrated GM Custom wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 5:25 pm
I don't recall anything about that in the Twilight Axis mini-series. I'm guessing that was in the novel?

As for the UC Strength enhancements, I had forgotten about Four doing that. Human Enhancements, specifically physical ones, are definitely touched upon more in SEED, where Coordinators tend to be on average a bit more coordinated (pardon the pun) and stronger than the average person. Kira seems to have no problem overpowering his peers, same for the ZAFT soldiers.

I'll admit I just looked at the Japanese page of Wikipedia and quoted what they have listed as source.
I do have 3 volumes of the Twilight Axis manga but don't have a lot of motivation to read them after the first one. (But I do find if fun to see the characters appear in Return of JR)
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Re: Coordinators and Biological CPU's

MythSearcher wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 9:07 pm I'll admit I just looked at the Japanese page of Wikipedia and quoted what they have listed as source.
I do have 3 volumes of the Twilight Axis manga but don't have a lot of motivation to read them after the first one. (But I do find if fun to see the characters appear in Return of JR)
Similar for me, I read Return of JR before Twilight Axis so definitely appreciated the crossover. Twilight Axis as short as it was had some extremely slick animation. Did the Wikipedia article mention who was able to withstand the 300g? As I recall the cyber-newtypes in that series were the Femto brothers.
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