Underrated GM Custom wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:14 pmWhat's your opinion on this one, was it possible because of the twin-drive or could any suit feasibly block a ship-class beam weapon?
Hard one, we don't have much examples for the rough firepower of the Non-GN Laser Cannon of the Baikal-class.
With a GN Field I think most suits can do it, they are extremely strong against beams. The Empruss' GN Field was even able to bend 00's Raiser Sword for a short while, even if it got destroyed in the process.
Not sure about solid swords, maybe a Buster Sword since they are usually designed to double as shields.
Beam saber maybe, as the Ahead Sakigake's souped up one was able go block a direct beam shot from Trans-Am 00 Gundam. Maybe Arios' Beam Shield could do it too if a beam saber could.
Underrated GM Custom wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:14 pmInteresting, is the layered GN-Field always on or only turned on when the E-Carbon layer is destroyed? I'm guessing this wasn't used on the later models because of GN Particle coating was superior to the composite and doesn't result in any E-Carbon being ablated.
Not sure to be honest and I do not have access to the source material, 00P, to double check. The info on the GN Composite Armor I posted was based on a summary translation someone else did long time ago. They were running a test on Plutone and used Astraea's Beam Launcher on it.
The 0 Gundam Full Armor version mentions that it cannot be used for too long since particle consumption is high so I assume it is not on all the time.
As for the 'GN Field On Top" armor system, we only have direct confirmation for a few physical GN Shields as opposed to the whole armor. However like I said, it's implied.
Specifically the GN Shield section of MG Exia manual says that the shield deploys a GN Field on the surface to achieve high defense capability. It mentions it is very hard to break with conventional weapons as long as it receives power from Exia. Further says that at first glance, it's questionanable whether Exia even needed a shield since it and the other Gundams are covered in armor that has similar performance, but notes that the advantage is that it can move the arm with the shield to absorb shocks from attacks.
RG 00 Raiser manual's GN Shield section says something similar, that conventional weapons are almost ineffective because of the GN Field on the surface. The GN Drive section also mentions that GN Drives can be used for defensive measures like "armor strengthening" (装甲の強化).
None are direct confirmations that they use GN Field effect on the entire armor but the lines about being super strong against conventional attacks, the rest of the armor having similar performance to the shield, GN Drives being able to strengthen armor and with what we see from the anime in Season 1, makes it super unlikely that they do not use them. The Gundams take many blows all over with nothing but superficial damage, and sometimes not even that. That the blocs were willing to consistently bombard them for 15 hours in the desert battle also shows that their tactical analysis reveals the same thing. If there was a chance that their precious technological prize might be spoilt, they probably wouldn't have resorted to that just for the sake of tiring the pilots. GNMS also use GN Particles for just about everything so it would be weird if their most prominent feature doesn't.
The E-Carbon used by Celestial Being is confirmed to be more sophisticated and stronger than the ones used by the blocs. According 1st Mechanics book, this is due to theirs having a more uniform molecular spin. However I have yet come across a line so far that directly says the the Gundam E-Carbon are immune or near immune to conventional weapons, unlike the E-Carbon+GN Field combo description on the shields.
The other reason I suspect is due to how three Aheads were easily destroyed by conventional weapons while inside the Anti Field in Season 2 Episode 22. The Ahead was supposed to be
at least equivalent in performance to the Season 1 Gundams * with no profiles mentioning any defensive compromises. The Anti Field was primarily meant to be Anti Beam in nature but if we suppose that
- A - Anti Field also weakens GN Field somewhat
- B - GNMS use some GN Field on armor
are both true, it would explain that weird scene nicely.
[* Sources slightly disagree on this. The 2nd Mechanics book says it is equivalent to a single 3rd Generation Gundam, while the HG Ahead manual says it is superior.]
Underrated GM Custom wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:14 pmInteresting. Do you recall a time when that happened in the show? I've seen S2 twice but I'm blanking on any scenes where the green blade melts armor. Then again there aren't too many slow motion sword swings are there?
Don't recall it in animation, but that's how their described to work in text. There was one time in Season 2 Episode 22 that you can see hot metal on an Ahead after 00 cut it in half but I suspect that's normal even with the non-green swords.
We also have to keep in mind that all of the instances we see the green blades being used in animation are in space. Remote heat transfer is slower in space since it can only happen via radiation, as opposed to convection and radiation in atmosphere. Presumably there's less chance to soften the armor before the blade touches it and the overall heating time is lessened.
Underrated GM Custom wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:14 pmSince you bring up reliability though one thing I'd like to point out is the stress concentration area on the GN Sword I / III specifically on the area where it rotates around. Anytime it clashes with an opponent's weapon's it would be putting a tremendous stress on that hinge joint.
I always assumed that there must be a locking mechanism once the blade connects with the beam gun, magnetic or otherwise. If not, I don't think the design is even viable.
The hinge will definitely be taking some extra load but I suspect its mostly during rotation due to what I said above. If the GN Particle mass reduction effect can be applied during the rotation, that will help lessen the stress too.
There will definitely be stress there but if the assertion in my theory that the beam parts need to be serviced and repaired less often for the I/III switchblades holds true, it might still be a net positive. Replacing a simple rotating hinge more often is probably preferable if it buys more time and reliability on the complex beam components. Also, if the rotation hinge were to suddenly fail mid sortie, the beam rifle part would still be viable. Exia Repair's beam rifle for example was still fine despite the blade being cut in half. With the IIs, you get the feeling the fate of the parts are all more closely linked, good for compactability but bad for reliability and maintenance.
Speaking of which, interesting alternate designs for the discussion would be the GN Sword II Blaster from 00 Seven Sword/G and the GN Sword Rifles from Harute. These more bayonet-like designs are primed to be rifles first and sword second. There is a clear separation of rifle and blades but the downsides are they don't make good swords like the main GN Sword series except on downward slashes.
Underrated GM Custom wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:14 pmI would say it's very likely the IIs had a lower maximum output since they weren't yet sure what the Twin Drive was capable of at the time of design and so they took a more conservative approach rather than risk having a weapon that required more power than the suit could provide.
Yes they did but they also had a less conservative set ready. The MSV 00 Gundam Seven Sword was originally meant to be the real equipment set of 00 Gundam that took full advantage of the Twin Drive.
Its GN Buster Sword II
(based on the GN-XII's) was the most prominent equipment. A large powerful physical sword and also had a shield mode that can give a lot
of defense and generate a large GN Field that can even be useful for protecting allies.
The GN Sword II Long was also physically larger than the standard II with a Beam Rifle Mode that was more powerful but has slower firing rate and higher particle consumption. The Sword II Short was a smaller II with the ability to fire a retractable blade with a cable, which was designed with Setsuna's blade throwing preference in mind.
The GN Katars were the first known prototype of the Green Condenser Blades, however they did not work as the blades burned so hot they melted themselves. The tech was only perfected with the GN Sword III.
The official reason on why they did not use the 7S was because the Twin Drive was not perfected and they needed the full output for the 7S. So they put their efforts on building a stabilizer system onto the 0 Raiser support craft instead to bring about the full output.
They only revisited the 7S set after Season 2 ended as the Seven Sword/G. This was where they built a Raiser System equivalent onto the Buster Sword II and used 00 with the Twin Large Condensers. This allowed it to have its normal Twin Drive performance albeit with far shorter operation time and upper hard limits. It had its fair of hiccups though being an experimental system and they only perfected the Twin Condensers when nearing the Movie's time period.
They also gave it a new weapon, the GN Sword II Blaster, that had a rifle mode that is stronger than the II Long. It is focused on the rifle part first with the sword function being secondary. I personally theorize that the reason for this is the reverse of my Twin Drive theory, that with particle efficiency becoming important again they wanted to focus on being good and efficient at a narrow ability.
Underrated GM Custom wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:14 pmReading your explanation below that CB was worried about reverse engineering and they actually doing so just based off the beam saber gouge marks left by Exia is an impressive feat for the Earthnoids and also explains why Exia was reluctant to use them.
I suspect they were not too worried to be honest as the technology they had were all useless without GN Particles. To use an example, in the 00N Enact chapter, the AEU were pretty excited about analyzing the beam saber marks on Patrick's Enact as they can give them clues on to use for their beam weapon developement
(the AEU had the most progress in that area). However, they discovered that there's nothing they can do without access to the special particles. In Episode 2, Kyrios also more or less left its Tail Unit container for the HRL to find, which they did and analyzed in the next episode.
Setsuna also more or less throws his Beam Daggers without much care, even when the tactical advantage is very minor since Exia has a beam rifle. While Celestial Being does have teams that help recover purged items, technology leakage is probably not even a concern if Setsuna is allowed to throw them that often.
I suspect the lesser beam saber usage has more to do with Setsuna's preference more than anything. He sees them as backup weapons to use in emergencies or certain tactical scenarios. He seems to really really favor the GN Sword in general, and that includes disfavoring the GN Blades too. It is likely that he just prefers solids and the main Sword-Shield combo. He also doesn't use the GN Vulcans on Exia's wrist often either.
Usually for melee, he will use the GN Sword most of the time. He is then prepared to use two GN Beam Daggers for throwing. If he needs faster swords, he will then switch to dual GN Beam Sabers or GN Blades. So he has three melee "modes" so to speak: Main Sword, then switching to Fast Dual as needed, with Dagger Throws being sprinkled on from time to time.
Againts Michael Zwei in Episode 19, he started with the main GN Sword to cross the Buster Sword. Then when he had to fight against Fangs, he accurately threw the three daggers he had before switching to dual Beam Sabers to slash the rest. In Episode 22, against Ali Zwei he also began with the GN Sword, before changing to the GN Blades after he lost it, and then switched to dual Beam Sabers after he lost those.
On that note, he also never ever dual/left arm wield with a shield. He will either eject it first, not have it due to not having brought it or it was destroyed earlier in battle. He doesn't appear to like the extra weight while blade wielding with the left arm but still likes it for defense. This is the case even with 00, where he favors the single GN Sword II-GN Shield combo for the majority of the first half of Season 2. Only after getting 00 Raiser does he starts dual IIs all the time probably because the Raiser Wings and GN Field can give him defense, only going back to single wield with the Sword III.
He also only used GN Sword II's Beam Saber Mode twice even though he had access to it at anytime, so that adds more evidence to his solid blade preference. By this time, there should be no concerns of particle conservation or beam saber technology leakage. He even continued to have his "throwing" style too despite having less excess swords: he threw a Beam Saber in Season 2 Episode 13 and 23 against Aheads, and threw the GN Sword II against Regnant in Episode 21.
So yes, he does appear to see beam sabers as secondary in terms of tactical preference.