Durability of Gundam Alex

[Underrated GM Custom]

Good morning everyone,

I was digging through some old threads looking up information on the RX-78-7 Gundam and saw a few mentions that it was based on the Gundam Alex frame. I thought this was interesting since I had always thought that Alex was built with Titanium Ceramic composite vice Luna Titanium, just like the Gundam MK-II. Turns out I was mistaken.

On that topic I'd like to discuss the durability of Gundam Alex and specifically Luna Titanium. For the original RX78-2 where no expense was spared it was virtually indestructible to the Zaku machine gun but still vulnerable to Heat weapons like the Gouf's Heat Sword and Whip.

Then we have suits like the Ground GM (RGM-79G) and Ground Gundam (RX-79G) who are also made of Luna Titanium but we see that they are more vulnerable to rapid fire weapons. While there are a couple different explanations for this I personally prefer one of these two options:
1. Either their armor is thinner compared to the RX 78-2
2. Or they use Luna Titanium for certain critical components but not all of them. Additionally as spare parts run out they begin to use cheaper replacements.

I think both are perfectly plausible explanations. I bring them up because I myself often envision Alex as the least durable Gundam in the OYW. (Although that crown likely belongs to Gundam Pixie). Here are my thoughts as to why:

(Quick note: This is a qualitative analysis vice a quantitative analysis. I didn't plan on bringing up Specs here since Specs are often wildly different between each series)

1. The Alex was developed to take advantage of Amuro's lightning quick reactions, the RX 78-2 was currently holding him back. To this end we get a considerably higher performance Gundam with cutting edge cockpit. While both units had the magnetic coating applied which cuts down on wear and tear and improves turn-around times it is implied that the Alex is overall a superior machine.

One way to get a higher performing machine, at least in terms of mobility is to lower the weight of it making it easier to maneuver. Since we don't have Gundarium Gamma yet that would mean lowering the armor thickness in certain areas.

2. Arm Gatling Guns. Awesome idea that I wish we'd see more of in other UC Gundams. That said, having retractable gatling guns (and an ammunition supply) in the arms means you need a hollow space in the arm to hold it. Assuming there wasn't a sudden miniaturization of the cables and hydraulic lines in the arm, then that space is coming out of the armor.

3. Chobham Armor system. A more practical Full Armor concept, where the ablative armor after fulfilling it's job can be ejected to allow the Gundam to maximize mobility. For a pilot like Amuro the Chobham armor would be unnecessary, but if they were to mass-produce this (like say a GM Cannon II) the armor system would be valuable to the rank and file soldier.

While the presence of the armor alone, doesn't mean the Alex has worse armor it does allow for this theory: (Note this is completely conjecture): The Chobham armor was developed to supplement a MS that had an armor rating inferior to it's predecessor meaning it would not be invincible to the Zaku Machine gun.

While the Chobham armor system comes with benefits of ablative armor where powerful weapons like the Rick Dom's bazooka (or a chain-mine) have their energy contained in the destroyed outer armor. This in turn brings up an interesting question, how would the Alex have fared against a chain mine if it wasn't wearing the armor?

Ancillary: While the Alex was defeated by a Zaku I don't count that against the suit. After all, we see Amuro's Gundam take severe damage from Ramba Ral's Heat Whip and Heat Sword, so seeing the Alex severely damaged by a Heat Hawk is not out of the ordinary.

So those are three reasons as to why I think the Alex is less durable of a machine than the RX78-2 Gundam. I admit it was entirely a gut feeling that led me to rationalize why I think the Alex appears less tough on screen so if anyone has conflicting stories or perspective I'd love to hear them so I change my initial perspective. I've always loved the design of the Alex, while low durability is a shortcoming I don't think it would have mattered with Amuro at the helm.

[MythSearcher]

Good morning everyone,

I was digging through some old threads looking up information on the RX-78-7 Gundam and saw a few mentions that it was based on the Gundam Alex frame. I thought this was interesting since I had always thought that Alex was built with Titanium Ceramic composite vice Luna Titanium, just like the Gundam MK-II. Turns out I was mistaken.

On that topic I'd like to discuss the durability of Gundam Alex and specifically Luna Titanium. For the original RX78-2 where no expense was spared it was virtually indestructible to the Zaku machine gun but still vulnerable to Heat weapons like the Gouf's Heat Sword and Whip.

Then we have suits like the Ground GM (RGM-79G) and Ground Gundam (RX-79G) who are also made of Luna Titanium but we see that they are more vulnerable to rapid fire weapons. While there are a couple different explanations for this I personally prefer one of these two options:
1. Either their armor is thinner compared to the RX 78-2
2. Or they use Luna Titanium for certain critical components but not all of them. Additionally as spare parts run out they begin to use cheaper replacements.

Actually, the RX-78 was seen in show that it got damaged by machine gun fire later as well.
The PG Manual details says that the Lunar Titanium was a foam metal that can take a hit from the Zaku machine gun without having a visible dent because it is just the foam compressing. But after that a hit on the same spot will penetrate. This is presumably for entertaining the irrational requirement set by the higher-ups ordering the armour to be able to take a direct hit without scratch so they made it so for demonstration purposes.
The GM shields also have a layer of lunar titanium sandwiched in it and is basically the same as Gundam's shield(other than the yellow cross) and shouldn't be more vulnerable.

I think both are perfectly plausible explanations. I bring them up because I myself often envision Alex as the least durable Gundam in the OYW. (Although that crown likely belongs to Gundam Pixie). Here are my thoughts as to why:

Or is it?
All we see is the Chobham armour being blow off(with each pieces being still intact but likely slightly deformed which will be obstructing its movement thus the armour has to be purged.(also considering Chobham armour is a kind of sacrificial reaction armour, it might well be useless once expended its charge)
And its own armour being intact until a direct hit from a heat hawk which is in the ranges of thousands of degrees plasma.(Yes, heat weapons are heat up to plasma and that is the reason why they can parry beam sabres)

(Quick note: This is a qualitative analysis vice a quantitative analysis. I didn't plan on bringing up Specs here since Specs are often wildly different between each series)

I'll bring up just one spec for this conversation.
Considering Gundam and NT-1 has very similar shape, their empty weight should be a very good comparison of the material used on them.
NT-1's empty weight is 40t, while Gundam is 43.4t, both the GM[G] and the Gundam[G] is over 10t more heavy on its empty weight, thus I believe both of them has even more armour material so the above 1. is highly unlikely.
You get a little bit of redundancy on Gundam's core fighter, but considering the full weight of that is just 8.9t, you won't have redundant weight of 3.4t if comparing it with a panoramic cockpit.
Even if we assume all of the upgrades in specs with the higher thrust, generator output, turning rate(better motors), etc. are all technological advancements and aren't heavier than Gundam's, NT-1 will likely still have less armour material than Gundam.
Side note is the GM, its empty weight is 41.2t, a little lower than Gundam but higher than NT-1. Considering most of its specs are lower but mostly just Gundam's parts on limiters and reduction of weight in the cockpit as well, the GM's main reduction in armour performance should be from material properties and not from quantity of material used.

Also, I don't have high hopes for the Chobham armour having a lot of armour material because the empty weight with chobham armour is 50t, so chobham without all the weapons and propellant is only 10t.
Real life tanks' armour mass is over 50% of its empty weight, so Gundam and NT-1 should have about 20t of armour material on them. Thus Chobham armour should only be around half of what they fixed armour should have.

1. The Alex was developed to take advantage of Amuro's lightning quick reactions, the RX 78-2 was currently holding him back. To this end we get a considerably higher performance Gundam with cutting edge cockpit. While both units had the magnetic coating applied which cuts down on wear and tear and improves turn-around times it is implied that the Alex is overall a superior machine.

In terms of this, it seems like what the EFSF has done was just making NT-1 over responsive.(try setting your mouse to most sensitive)

One way to get a higher performing machine, at least in terms of mobility is to lower the weight of it making it easier to maneuver. Since we don't have Gundarium Gamma yet that would mean lowering the armor thickness in certain areas.

Yes, but likely around 10% at max considering the empty weight.

2. Arm Gatling Guns. Awesome idea that I wish we'd see more of in other UC Gundams. That said, having retractable gatling guns (and an ammunition supply) in the arms means you need a hollow space in the arm to hold it. Assuming there wasn't a sudden miniaturization of the cables and hydraulic lines in the arm, then that space is coming out of the armor.

Not necessarily. NT-1 has obviously a larger forearm(and smaller hands if you really think about it, but we will ignore this part for the sake of continuity reasons), the blue part is hiding at least half of the gatling gun in it with a lot of room to spare, that is likely the ammo space and armour.
(If you put the MG models together you can see that the NT-1 forearm isn't really that much smaller in the white part)

3. Chobham Armor system. A more practical Full Armor concept, where the ablative armor after fulfilling it's job can be ejected to allow the Gundam to maximize mobility. For a pilot like Amuro the Chobham armor would be unnecessary, but if they were to mass-produce this (like say a GM Cannon II) the armor system would be valuable to the rank and file soldier.

While the presence of the armor alone, doesn't mean the Alex has worse armor it does allow for this theory: (Note this is completely conjecture): The Chobham armor was developed to supplement a MS that had an armor rating inferior to it's predecessor meaning it would not be invincible to the Zaku Machine gun.

While the Chobham armor system comes with benefits of ablative armor where powerful weapons like the Rick Dom's bazooka (or a chain-mine) have their energy contained in the destroyed outer armor. This in turn brings up an interesting question, how would the Alex have fared against a chain mine if it wasn't wearing the armor?

Ancillary: While the Alex was defeated by a Zaku I don't count that against the suit. After all, we see Amuro's Gundam take severe damage from Ramba Ral's Heat Whip and Heat Sword, so seeing the Alex severely damaged by a Heat Hawk is not out of the ordinary.

So those are three reasons as to why I think the Alex is less durable of a machine than the RX78-2 Gundam. I admit it was entirely a gut feeling that led me to rationalize why I think the Alex appears less tough on screen so if anyone has conflicting stories or perspective I'd love to hear them so I change my initial perspective. I've always loved the design of the Alex, while low durability is a shortcoming I don't think it would have mattered with Amuro at the helm.

The NT-1 has a few parts where it might be weaker in armour.
The legs have additional outer thrusters, meaning you get even less armour mass.
Its shoulder armour pieces are also have vernier thrusters so they maybe thinner in armour.(though they look thicker because of the nozzle integrated in them)
However, the body part seems to be rather intact and unchanged from Gundam, considering it doesn't have the redundant parts of the core fighter and the combination system making it structurally weaker, I will say that my bet is on the NT-1 if it is just the major parts around the cockpit and torso.

[Seto Kaiba]

1. Either their armor is thinner compared to the RX 78-2
2. Or they use Luna Titanium for certain critical components but not all of them. Additionally as spare parts run out they begin to use cheaper replacements.

There is perhaps a grain of truth to #2, since it's acknowledged that the RX-79[G] Land Battle Gundam suffered a shortage of repair parts and sometimes had to make do with acceptable substitutes designed for the GM.

That said, there is nothing to indicate they were overall less durable than the RX-78-2 operated by Amuro. It can be said that the RX-79[G]'s did not have anywhere near as much access to the dedicated maintenance facilities needed to make repairs to luna titanium armor and saw more sustained combat.

The NT-1, however, sustains basically no damage from anything except the Zaku II's Heat Hawk in its one outing in actual combat and essentially only lost the fight because it was tuned for a Newtype pilot and that produced some control irregularities for the very much normal Christina Mackenzie.

1. The Alex was developed to take advantage of Amuro's lightning quick reactions, the RX 78-2 was currently holding him back. To this end we get a considerably higher performance Gundam with cutting edge cockpit. While both units had the magnetic coating applied which cuts down on wear and tear and improves turn-around times it is implied that the Alex is overall a superior machine.

One way to get a higher performing machine, at least in terms of mobility is to lower the weight of it making it easier to maneuver. Since we don't have Gundarium Gamma yet that would mean lowering the armor thickness in certain areas.

The actual difference between the weight of the RX-78-2 and RX-78NT-1 isn't that significant. The ALEX's better performance is attributed to the magnetic coating and improvements in technology incl. better control computer systems, not a reduction in defensive capabilities.

2. Arm Gatling Guns. Awesome idea that I wish we'd see more of in other UC Gundams. That said, having retractable gatling guns (and an ammunition supply) in the arms means you need a hollow space in the arm to hold it. Assuming there wasn't a sudden miniaturization of the cables and hydraulic lines in the arm, then that space is coming out of the armor.

The gun wasn't retractable, per se... and the arm wasn't really hollowed out either. They basically doubled the size of the unit's forearms to make room for the gun, with the outer/top part of the forearm armor being set up on a lever arm to raise it and reveal the cannon for firing. It did not compromise the armor, except when the cannon was deployed for firing since it exposed the inside of the arm by lifting half of the armor to do so.\

It's noted in Master Archive Mobile Suit: RX-78 Gundam that the 90mm gatling gun was omitted from future models due to manufacturing cost and maintainability issues.

3. Chobham Armor system. A more practical Full Armor concept, where the ablative armor after fulfilling it's job can be ejected to allow the Gundam to maximize mobility. For a pilot like Amuro the Chobham armor would be unnecessary, but if they were to mass-produce this (like say a GM Cannon II) the armor system would be valuable to the rank and file soldier.

It wasn't ablative. Chobham armor is a ceramic matrix composite armor meant to defeat shaped charges and high density kinetic penetrators. It's a real world technology. Though what this is isn't quite that either, so the name's nonindicative. The way it's described in Master Archive, it's a hybrid of Chobham armor using thinner Luna Titanium than the main MS armor, a composite honeycomb substrate, and a thicker backing armor piece mounted to the MS's own armor that also incorporates certain aspects of explosive reactive armor by stuffing its composite substrate with explosives that can detonate to counter the impact force of hard rounds.

While the presence of the armor alone, doesn't mean the Alex has worse armor it does allow for this theory: (Note this is completely conjecture): The Chobham armor was developed to supplement a MS that had an armor rating inferior to it's predecessor meaning it would not be invincible to the Zaku Machine gun.

Right for the wrong reason... the Chobham Armor addon used on the Gundam ALEX was developed for use on later mass production mobile suits, and eventually found its way onto several including the RGC-83 GM Cannon II.

This in turn brings up an interesting question, how would the Alex have fared against a chain mine if it wasn't wearing the armor?

Probably pretty well... the Chobham Armor packs weren't as durable as the main armor, they were intended to soak fire from things like anti-tank rounds and the actual luna titanium layers in them were pretty thin.

Ancillary: While the Alex was defeated by a Zaku I don't count that against the suit. After all, we see Amuro's Gundam take severe damage from Ramba Ral's Heat Whip and Heat Sword, so seeing the Alex severely damaged by a Heat Hawk is not out of the ordinary.

... that wasn't a Zaku I, that was a MS-06FZ Zaku II Kai, and it could be argued that it only managed to fight the ALEX to a draw since both suits ended up disabled but only the Gundam's pilot survived.

Its saving grace was that the NT-1's control system was tuned for a Newtype and its pilot was fighting her own suit as much as the enemy the entire fight due to its oversensitive controls. If it'd been tuned for a normal pilot, odds are Bernie would've been painted across the scenery with relatively little effort the same way Mikhail Kaminsky was.

[Underrated GM Custom]

Actually, the RX-78 was seen in show that it got damaged by machine gun fire later as well.
The PG Manual details says that the Lunar Titanium was a foam metal that can take a hit from the Zaku machine gun without having a visible dent because it is just the foam compressing. But after that a hit on the same spot will penetrate.

You know I didn't know this, thank you I learned something completely new today. Was the information in the PG kit considered groundbreaking to fans when it came out? I think it's a neat explanation that shows the Gundam's invincibility was perceived rather than guaranteed when it comes to the Zaku machine gun.

And its own armour being intact until a direct hit from a heat hawk which is in the ranges of thousands of degrees plasma.(Yes, heat weapons are heat up to plasma and that is the reason why they can parry beam sabres)

Copy all on the heat hawk parrying beam weapons, I've always loved that tidbit of information.

It's been a minute since I've seen that section in 0080 but I remember there being damage being done to Alex and not just the chobham armor. Thankfully the Alex - Kampfer showdown is up on youtube. When the chain mine goes off the chobham armor falls off, we see the chest vents flexing, likely for an operations check to see if the suit is functional and not significantly damaged. Animation wise we see scorch marks over the suit, one could argue it merely damaged the paint. But then we see the V-Fin and half of it has been destroyed.

We know the giant bazooka of the Dom's are strong enough weapons to damage Gundarium we also know it's an effective anti-ship weapon. The chain mine itself has also been described as an anti-ship weapon. While I think the chobham armor weathered the storm and fulfilled it's purpose wonderfully the chain mine did seem to do some damage. With that new information that Luna Titanium doesn't show surface deformities it's hard to tell how compromised it ws. Given the close range explosions I suppose Alex is lucky the shrapnel nor concussive force hit any exposed joints or dislodged any cabling.

That said what are your thoughts on the chain main being wrapped around Alex without Chobham. Would it survive unscathed or suffer significant damage? Would you get the same result from the RX 78-2?

My gut feeling is we would see the RX 78-2 emerge from the smoke in better condition than Alex would. If I try to rationalize that impression I've got two answers.

1. MSG frequently describe they spared no expense making the Gundam. Makes sense it's their first machine to fight Zeon's new super weapon, mobile suits. We hear about the incredible costs of a single screw on the Gundam. They even install a whizz-bang coolant system to survive re-entry on its own. As a prototype machine they flipped the volume to 11 on their engineering safety factors so my hunch is that the RX 78-2 has the thickest armor of any Gundam since it's the first batch. Every unit in the RX-78 series afterwards has the flexibility to adjust their design based on how well it performed and whether it's excess of armor was necessary. It would also help explain why units 4, 5 and 6 seemed a bit less resilient.

2. Overall tones of the animation, I imagine this is what is driving my gut feeling. In MSG the Gundam is often portrayed as invincible, an unstoppable force that inspires fear in the hearts of the enemy. This continues until the final act. Contrast this with 0080, we have several scenes where the bad guys nearly get to the Alex. We the viewer don't want that to happen since it would be a tragedy, this prototype is going to Amuro and will change the war after all. The director knows the ultimate fate of the machine and they portray a few moments of weakness on the build up to that climax. We sacrifice some perceived invulnerability for some narrative suspense.

I'll bring up just one spec for this conversation.
Considering Gundam and NT-1 has very similar shape, their empty weight should be a very good comparison of the material used on them.
NT-1's empty weight is 40t, while Gundam is 43.4t, both the GM[G] and the Gundam[G] is over 10t more heavy on its empty weight, thus I believe both of them has even more armour material so the above 1. is highly unlikely.

I usually avoid specs, especially 0080 since they're the biggest outlier in all of UC. I did want to mention one thing though. Alright so the Ground GM / Gundam weigh more than RX 78-2. Fair enough, one interpretation is that means they have more armor. I'll offer these two considerations.

1. Ground style suits should be heavier than space counterparts. Could be additional armor, bigger power plants, more propellant, or additional ammo and POLs since resupply may be uncommon.

When I think of ground based warfare, locomotion is far more important since you're out of a zero-G environment. More weight may come from additional armor to protect certain areas, like Kondos beloved skirt armor protecting hip joints, could be more fuel since you're dealing with gravity, and it could also be redundant electro-mechanical or hydraulic systems. It's easy to pick up a mangled suit in space, it's harder to tow one back on the ground. With locomotion being critical I'd like to hope there are several redundant machinery in place in case one goes down due to malfunction or enemy contact. Note: Never had the chance to serve with an armored division and spend time with any gearheads, so that's all just arm-chair conjecture on my part.

2. Armor material. We don't have density of the materials and that's perfectly fine. Based on description and cost I'm willing to bet that Luna Titanium is both lighter and stronger than it's competitors of Steel, Titanium, and Composites. So if we go on the hypothesis that the Ground GM / Gundam have "full" luna titnaium in key areas like the chest but the rest of the suit is something else that could also account for a large up-tick in weight. As a thought exercise we could consider what if the arms and legs were similar to a GM shield with a layer of Luna Titanium and the rest something else, I imagine it'd be heavier than straight Luna Titanium super material. Then again I could be wrong!

In terms of this, it seems like what the EFSF has done was just making NT-1 over responsive.(try setting your mouse to most sensitive)

Hahah! Fair point. I like to hope they did more than just a quick software upgrade since Amuro seems more than talented to make that adjustment himself. My take on the responsiveness was the same explanation we see with the Talgeese in Gundam Wing. The pilot had surpassed the machine in its current state and no amount of tweaking the controls could fix that. Thankfully for the Gundam the magnetic coating drastically improved the mechanical responsiveness.

Not necessarily. NT-1 has obviously a larger forearm

Ah! I had forgotten NT-1 had larger forearms, thanks for comparing on the model kits. Still I'd love to see more Gundams with arm-mounted gatlings.

However, the body part seems to be rather intact and unchanged from Gundam, considering it doesn't have the redundant parts of the core fighter and the combination system making it structurally weaker, I will say that my bet is on the NT-1 if it is just the major parts around the cockpit and torso.

Just wanted to make sure I read you right here. So is the Alex stronger in the torso due to a lack of the core fighter or vice versa?

That said, there is nothing to indicate they were overall less durable than the RX-78-2 operated by Amuro. It can be said that the RX-79[G]'s did not have anywhere near as much access to the dedicated maintenance facilities needed to make repairs to luna titanium armor and saw more sustained combat.

So we see the Ground units taking a beating from Zaku units in the animation. It's a grittier show so naturally we see more battle damage. I don't recall if we see it on screen or not but I believe it's either the 6th or 7th team that meets an early demise from Zeon forces then later in the show the other team gets blown up in an explosive trap. While we could chalk that up to superior tactics and poor federation piloting I would say it points towards a conscious decision by the story tellers that these units are less durable than the Gundam. We've seen Amuro and the Gundam suffer through many explosions, including some rather potent ones in the traps laid by M'Quve and make it out just fine.

When it comes to rationalizing why Ground GMs and Gundams are more mortal in 08th MS Team, aside from the gritty realism most takes I've read have been one of those two, thinner Luna Titanium over all, or the Luna Titanium is only covering certain key spots.

The actual difference between the weight of the RX-78-2 and RX-78NT-1 isn't that significant. The ALEX's better performance is attributed to the magnetic coating and improvements in technology incl. better control computer systems, not a reduction in defensive capabilities.

So both units received the magnetic coating by that point in the war. While I agree the Alex has a way better cockpit and computer system, I'd also like to point it's only been a year for technology to mature and progress for MS development. Can a lot of great things happen during a wartime effort? Absolutely. My only point is that the performance boost may also be due to thinner armor in addition to the better avionics etc. I realize in my original post it read as if that was the only proposed reason, my bad.

It's noted in Master Archive Mobile Suit: RX-78 Gundam that the 90mm gatling gun was omitted from future models due to manufacturing cost and maintainability issues.

Hahaha! That's a fair reason on paper but somehow the Core Fighter in 0083 and the transforming mobile suits of the Gryps Conflict were able to dodge that danger of bean-counting. It's a shame since it's an excellent weapon system for dealing with foes whose speed making landing a beam rifle shot challenging. I suppose the advent of Gundarium Gamma on grunt troops make the weapon system moot as of Zeta.

It wasn't ablative. Chobham armor is a ceramic matrix composite armor meant to defeat shaped charges and high density kinetic penetrators. It's a real world technology. Though what this is isn't quite that either, so the name's nonindicative.

Yep, completely agree, I had a weapons and armor class back in 2008 that covered that armor system in detail as well as the fluid mechanics of an RPG hitting the front armor. Not my field of expertise but a fascinating elective!

I considered calling it reactive armor, but ablative seemed to fit better from the animation. I imagine if it wasn't more costly animation wise we may have seen the armored materials crack and break like you'd see in ablative armor.

the Chobham Armor addon used on the Gundam ALEX was developed for use on later mass production mobile suits.

Just curious are there any sources that stay the Chobham was specifically developed for other MS and Alex was just a convenient testing bed? I was under the impression it was one of two implementation for a Full Armor Alex and that the FSWS was designed with Gundam's in mind. If they worked they would later be implemented on mass produced suits like the GM Cannon II.

... that wasn't a Zaku I, that was a MS-06FZ Zaku II Kai

Yep, typo on my part. I moved that paragraph to the end and clipped off an "I" in the process.

[MythSearcher]

You know I didn't know this, thank you I learned something completely new today. Was the information in the PG kit considered groundbreaking to fans when it came out? I think it's a neat explanation that shows the Gundam's invincibility was perceived rather than guaranteed when it comes to the Zaku machine gun.

I doubt a lot of people know this. The PG manuals are like technical reports for designing a real machine and they really put in the effort writing it. However, I doubt a lot of people actually take the time to read them.

It's been a minute since I've seen that section in 0080 but I remember there being damage being done to Alex and not just the chobham armor. Thankfully the Alex - Kampfer showdown is up on youtube. When the chain mine goes off the chobham armor falls off, we see the chest vents flexing, likely for an operations check to see if the suit is functional and not significantly damaged. Animation wise we see scorch marks over the suit, one could argue it merely damaged the paint. But then we see the V-Fin and half of it has been destroyed.

We know the giant bazooka of the Dom's are strong enough weapons to damage Gundarium we also know it's an effective anti-ship weapon. The chain mine itself has also been described as an anti-ship weapon. While I think the chobham armor weathered the storm and fulfilled it's purpose wonderfully the chain mine did seem to do some damage. With that new information that Luna Titanium doesn't show surface deformities it's hard to tell how compromised it ws. Given the close range explosions I suppose Alex is lucky the shrapnel nor concussive force hit any exposed joints or dislodged any cabling.

Be really careful with the giant bazooka info.
The 360mm rockets have at least 2 known variants. One is captured from EFF's California base, these are the powerful, sinking-a-cruiser-in-one-shot weapons. The other is the 360/880mm one made by Zeon when they ran out of the captured rockets, the 880mm is the length of the rocket and they cannot reproduce the power of the captured counter parts, and thus these are much weaker. I do have to check if they still use these against ships, but that's the ones you see the Rick Dom II carrying and used. This is also a pretty good example showing EFF's technology in ammunition is better than Zeon.

That said what are your thoughts on the chain main being wrapped around Alex without Chobham. Would it survive unscathed or suffer significant damage? Would you get the same result from the RX 78-2?

My gut feeling is we would see the RX 78-2 emerge from the smoke in better condition than Alex would. If I try to rationalize that impression I've got two answers.

1. MSG frequently describe they spared no expense making the Gundam. Makes sense it's their first machine to fight Zeon's new super weapon, mobile suits. We hear about the incredible costs of a single screw on the Gundam. They even install a whizz-bang coolant system to survive re-entry on its own. As a prototype machine they flipped the volume to 11 on their engineering safety factors so my hunch is that the RX 78-2 has the thickest armor of any Gundam since it's the first batch. Every unit in the RX-78 series afterwards has the flexibility to adjust their design based on how well it performed and whether it's excess of armor was necessary. It would also help explain why units 4, 5 and 6 seemed a bit less resilient.

2. Overall tones of the animation, I imagine this is what is driving my gut feeling. In MSG the Gundam is often portrayed as invincible, an unstoppable force that inspires fear in the hearts of the enemy. This continues until the final act. Contrast this with 0080, we have several scenes where the bad guys nearly get to the Alex. We the viewer don't want that to happen since it would be a tragedy, this prototype is going to Amuro and will change the war after all. The director knows the ultimate fate of the machine and they portray a few moments of weakness on the build up to that climax. We sacrifice some perceived invulnerability for some narrative suspense.

I'd say it will likely have little effect on the NT-1 itself, at least direct appearance wise. The Chobham armour is likely less than half the material(thus thickness) of the NT-1's body armour, and not all of it is armour(it also has thrusters of its own) and not all armour weight is lunar titanium(with all the reactive armour designs)

NT-1 is also a very expensive unit, not likely any less expensive than the RX-78-2.
Notice while the RX-78-2's screw is more expensive than gold in the same weight, it is not really that expensive compared to modern fighters if you include the cost of development and research.
RX-78-2's expensiveness isn't because it used something more expensive, but because everything have been built with no prior knowledge and the first batch of 3 was the first time all these are put together. In real life it will definitely have a bunch of redundancy because of this reason and before any testing, you really can't optimise the use of material and tweak the performance.
NT-1 is an upgrade to this.

However, your gut feeling is likely because 0080 was overall aiming to be a more realistic anime than FG, which aimed as being realistic but at the same time can't really get rid of the super robot genre of its predecessors. And we know that super robots are typically almost invulnerable and can take the beating over and over again until plot demands its destruction.(typical mind over matter story)

I like how a reviewer of Tomino put it: "Tomino opened the door to the Real Robot Genre, but he didn't enter it."
So NT-1 is more likely to take SOME damage on screen because of the nature and aim of the show no matter what hit it(given that it is something designed to damage an armour target and not the assault rifle of your generic infantry)

I usually avoid specs, especially 0080 since they're the biggest outlier in all of UC.

The weight spec is the most consistent spec if you look at the same period though. Even 0080 weight specs are pretty reasonable.

I did want to mention one thing though. Alright so the Ground GM / Gundam weigh more than RX 78-2. Fair enough, one interpretation is that means they have more armor. I'll offer these two considerations.

1. Ground style suits should be heavier than space counterparts. Could be additional armor, bigger power plants, more propellant, or additional ammo and POLs since resupply may be uncommon.

When I think of ground based warfare, locomotion is far more important since you're out of a zero-G environment. More weight may come from additional armor to protect certain areas, like Kondos beloved skirt armor protecting hip joints, could be more fuel since you're dealing with gravity, and it could also be redundant electro-mechanical or hydraulic systems. It's easy to pick up a mangled suit in space, it's harder to tow one back on the ground. With locomotion being critical I'd like to hope there are several redundant machinery in place in case one goes down due to malfunction or enemy contact. Note: Never had the chance to serve with an armored division and spend time with any gearheads, so that's all just arm-chair conjecture on my part.

2. Armor material. We don't have density of the materials and that's perfectly fine. Based on description and cost I'm willing to bet that Luna Titanium is both lighter and stronger than it's competitors of Steel, Titanium, and Composites. So if we go on the hypothesis that the Ground GM / Gundam have "full" luna titnaium in key areas like the chest but the rest of the suit is something else that could also account for a large up-tick in weight. As a thought exercise we could consider what if the arms and legs were similar to a GM shield with a layer of Luna Titanium and the rest something else, I imagine it'd be heavier than straight Luna Titanium super material. Then again I could be wrong!

The problem is that both the ground types are supposed to be mainly taking left over RX parts and just assembling them for quick roll out.
So they will not have bigger power plants.
Additional armour is your best bet because I must say space armour will be VERY different than ground armour in requirement.
Space debris shielding for hypervelocity impact(HVI) aren't really useful in slower speed impacts(might have some use against some AP rounds and HEAT, but surely aren't efficient), and surely almost useless in ground combat. What HVI shielding needs is space(in between the material, check Whipple shield as an introduction if you are not familiar with HVI shielding), and while some armour types used in ground combat like spaced armour may be useful, they seldom have enough space. I'd imagine space use MS's armour has to have additional Whipple or Stuffed shielding on top of regular military armour on top for debris. They can just take that away for ground combat.(if they also increase the thickness of the armour to balance the armour weighting, the density of the armour is increased)

EFF has an advantage in their MS design because their armour is easier to replace, thus the ground types can simply hang ground type armour on top.

Considering they have a simpler cockpit and not much difference in internal structure, and the added 12.7mm chest machine gun won't really be 10t in weight(the ground GM doesn't have them at all) I'd say most of that weight increase is armour.
While lesser material for the ground types are possible, this shouldn't really reflect much on weight because GM basically has the same weight as Gundam.(I can almost say that the 2.2t decrease is from the redundant weight of the core fighter and combination structures, except the head might also be a bit lighter? Yes, material is different but both are titanium based alloys thus the density should be similar)

Just wanted to make sure I read you right here. So is the Alex stronger in the torso due to a lack of the core fighter or vice versa?

I'd say NT-1 is stronger or at least the same in the torso armour category.
No reason for it to be weaker. It still retained the outer armour covering the centre part, the space supposed to be the core block system are now switched to basically just the generators and the cockpit. All of those transformation structures, mechanism and whatsoever that virtually contributes very little to armour other than maybe the thickness and raw mass of it can now be actual well designed armour. And we know that shaping the material into a more efficient shape can increase in defence. Even if they didn't put a lot of effort in designing the armour around that area, at least they should have filled the gap with rather strong material.

[Underrated GM Custom]

I doubt a lot of people know this. The PG manuals are like technical reports for designing a real machine and they really put in the effort writing it. However, I doubt a lot of people actually take the time to read them.

I don't own a single PG but you've just given me a great selling point to want one now, thank you.

I do have to check if they still use these against ships, but that's the ones you see the Rick Dom II carrying and used. This is also a pretty good example showing EFF's technology in ammunition is better than Zeon.

That's fascinating, I was not aware of these two versions. I'm also surprised the Federation is better at explosive ammunition considering it's the primary weapon of many Zeon MS and appears to be used very sparingly on Federation suits.

That said when I said Antiship weapon, simply that it is useful from an antiship role not necessarily able to sink one in a single shot. I can't recall if it was the 'GM vs Dom which is a better grunt suit' thread or another Dom thread where there was a good consensus that the Dom appears to have been designed for an Antiship role and was likely in the planning / production stages before they were aware of Federation MS and the need for anti-MS combat. It's a sentiment I agree with since the Dom appears to be an perfection of the Battle of Loum style warfare.

RX-78-2's expensiveness isn't because it used something more expensive, but because everything have been built with no prior knowledge and the first batch of 3 was the first time all these are put together. In real life it will definitely have a bunch of redundancy because of this reason and before any testing, you really can't optimise the use of material and tweak the performance.
NT-1 is an upgrade to this.

However, your gut feeling is likely because 0080 was overall aiming to be a more realistic anime than FG, which aimed as being realistic but at the same time can't really get rid of the super robot genre of its predecessors. And we know that super robots are typically almost invulnerable and can take the beating over and over again until plot demands its destruction.(typical mind over matter story)

Fair points all around. Definitely had not considered the cost overruns from producing the first of it's kind. I think we're in agreement though that the RX 78-2 batch has considerable redundancies which includes Armor. After reading these responses my opinion of the Alex's armor has certainly changed, but I would still reason that the RX 78-2 has the thickest armor out of any Gundam in the OYW timeframe. What's changed is that I no longer think of Alex as having a much thinner armor.

I admit I'm not familiar with the FG acronym, is that First Gundam? Great quote and also a very good point that the super robot roots mean that trope wise the Gundam will appear invincible. I have to say I really love that new information about the Luna Titanium degrading over time but not visually showing that.

The problem is that both the ground types are supposed to be mainly taking left over RX parts and just assembling them for quick roll out.

I knew the Ground Gundam's used many RX parts but had forgotten the extent to which the Ground GM did. From the MAHQ profile: "GM Ground Type, it used 80 percent of the same parts as its RX-79(G) predecessor," So it used 80% of whatever the Gundam Ground Type was using, I imagine 80% would cover arms, legs and part of the torso.

Here's an interesting thought, if they're put together from leftover RX parts which parts did they receive? The RX-78-2 likely went through several design build iterations, are these models using spare parts of the final production or are they using any available parts including pieces that were made in the prototyping stage and later made obsolete by a better component? Another interesting thought, I wonder if they used any spare RX-77 parts.

While lesser material for the ground types are possible, this shouldn't really reflect much on weight because GM basically has the same weight as Gundam. Yes, material is different but both are titanium based alloys thus the density should be similar)

So I would caution thinking that Luna Titanium has the same density as standard Titanium alloy. I don't know if it's been confirmed but let's say for the sake of argument that Luna Titanium and Titanium are both chemically Ti. Luna Titanium being described as lighter and stronger most likely means a different crystal matrix structure for the Luna verion, in the same way that Diamonds and Graphite are both just carbon but with a different crystal matrix. Additionally it could also be lightweight based on whatever else is in the alloy that makes it easier to weld.

The GM being similar weight to the Gundam could depend on a lot of factors. Different materials but I would also recommend considering that the cheaper mass produced suit likely had cheaper and bulkier components beneath the armor instead of the high tolerancing that was placed into the components that made up the Gundam.

No reason for it to be weaker. It still retained the outer armour covering the centre part, the space supposed to be the core block system are now switched to basically just the generators and the cockpit. All of those transformation structures, mechanism and whatsoever that virtually contributes very little to armour other than maybe the thickness and raw mass of it can now be actual well designed armour.

Makes perfect sense to me.

[MythSearcher]

I don't own a single PG but you've just given me a great selling point to want one now, thank you.

I only owned WZC and Eva unit 01.
I read the RX-78 and Zeta manual from a friend back when it first published and later basically just relied on Dalong.

That's fascinating, I was not aware of these two versions. I'm also surprised the Federation is better at explosive ammunition considering it's the primary weapon of many Zeon MS and appears to be used very sparingly on Federation suits.

That said when I said Antiship weapon, simply that it is useful from an antiship role not necessarily able to sink one in a single shot. I can't recall if it was the 'GM vs Dom which is a better grunt suit' thread or another Dom thread where there was a good consensus that the Dom appears to have been designed for an Antiship role and was likely in the planning / production stages before they were aware of Federation MS and the need for anti-MS combat. It's a sentiment I agree with since the Dom appears to be an perfection of the Battle of Loum style warfare.

Okay, checked. My bad. The 880mm ones aren't weaker in power, they are bigger rounds because their explosive tech is lower and have to make the rounds bigger for the same effect. So each round should still be having similar power.
The using it sparingly part is because they not only captured a lot of those 360mm rounds, but also the factory manufacturing those rounds, so they can make their own. But when they have to retreat to space, they have to rely on their own factories and thus designed the 880mm versions. (real life reason is more likely than not that the 0080 designer actually measured the calibre on the bazooka and deemed 880mm is correct scale size of the models)

And well, they have anti-ship rounds for the 120mm Zaku machine guns, so the 360/880mm rockets can definitely do a better job than those.

Fair points all around. Definitely had not considered the cost overruns from producing the first of it's kind. I think we're in agreement though that the RX 78-2 batch has considerable redundancies which includes Armor. After reading these responses my opinion of the Alex's armor has certainly changed, but I would still reason that the RX 78-2 has the thickest armor out of any Gundam in the OYW timeframe. What's changed is that I no longer think of Alex as having a much thinner armor.

Like I said, while I can justify the torso part of NT-1, I think the legs armour might be thinner because of extra thrusters.
But I won't say the RX-78-2 has thickest armour, since we still have the FSWS project out there... Also, the NT-1+Chobham armour is likely still thicker than RX-78-2.
If we are talking about the Gundams most barebone forms and ignoring the FSWS(which is pretty hard to determine what you mean by bare bone, you can strip the NT-1 down but FA-78-2 is made with the additional armour directly on the thing and you cannot take it down without showing the internal machines), then I agree, the RX-78-2 is likely the thickness(effectively) armour model.

I admit I'm not familiar with the FG acronym, is that First Gundam? Great quote and also a very good point that the super robot roots mean that trope wise the Gundam will appear invincible. I have to say I really love that new information about the Luna Titanium degrading over time but not visually showing that.

Yes, First Gundam.

I knew the Ground Gundam's used many RX parts but had forgotten the extent to which the Ground GM did. From the MAHQ profile: "GM Ground Type, it used 80 percent of the same parts as its RX-79(G) predecessor," So it used 80% of whatever the Gundam Ground Type was using, I imagine 80% would cover arms, legs and part of the torso.

Here's an interesting thought, if they're put together from leftover RX parts which parts did they receive? The RX-78-2 likely went through several design build iterations, are these models using spare parts of the final production or are they using any available parts including pieces that were made in the prototyping stage and later made obsolete by a better component? Another interesting thought, I wonder if they used any spare RX-77 parts.

Likely so, which brings in a fun fact, the RX-77 is a heavier unit than RX-78.
It was designed to have more armour but less mobile in mind.
Both 79[G]s are in the weight ranges of the RX-77 instead of the RX-78.

But the most important part I think they used RX-77 parts is the head for the RGM-79[G].
I think they decided to use the visor head of RX-77 on the GMs because it is a better, more balanced design, with longer sensing range unlike the Gundam head focusing on close combat(wider sensing angle)

So I would caution thinking that Luna Titanium has the same density as standard Titanium alloy. I don't know if it's been confirmed but let's say for the sake of argument that Luna Titanium and Titanium are both chemically Ti. Luna Titanium being described as lighter and stronger most likely means a different crystal matrix structure for the Luna verion, in the same way that Diamonds and Graphite are both just carbon but with a different crystal matrix. Additionally it could also be lightweight based on whatever else is in the alloy that makes it easier to weld.

The GM being similar weight to the Gundam could depend on a lot of factors. Different materials but I would also recommend considering that the cheaper mass produced suit likely had cheaper and bulkier components beneath the armor instead of the high tolerancing that was placed into the components that made up the Gundam.

I am just saying by density and mass, they should have similar material, because the GM cannot reduce a lot of weight in the internal components other than the cockpit, thus the armour weight will be similar to Gundam and since both are Ti based alloys, the density should be similar and thus the similar appearance of them should show the actual effective density are also similar. (I mean, yes, you can take a piece of Ti and mould it into a plate vs a honeycomb and the latter will have much less effective density because it takes up much more space, but the GM and Gundam are very similar in the space they take up)
No other implication of whether this is similar in defensive capabilities or not. (unless we just used Newton's impact approximation equation where the only factor used is momentum.)

Yes, if we look at Sentinel, S and Z+ both are using Gundarium gamma, and likely the expensive stuff, but S still have greater defence because it is just that much more expensive.(Z+ armour being penetrated with more holes even when they are slower when entering the AA fire, but well, both Z+ survived the operation with no real damage to non-armour parts so I'd say that S is just overspec.)

[Underrated GM Custom]

And well, they have anti-ship rounds for the 120mm Zaku machine guns, so the 360/880mm rockets can definitely do a better job than those.

That's a fascinating bit of lore for the bazooka lore. I'm firmly with you, I think the mm size change likely went from people measuring how large it should be instead of tossing out numbers like throwing darts on a board. I recall reading a few threads about this how the size of the explosives with the ammo count listed means it wouldn't be physically possible to fit into the ammo pack.

I'm curious about the anti-ship rounds. Since Zaku MGs have such a hard time against the white base, is there any reason why they wouldn't use an anti-ship round instead?

But I won't say the RX-78-2 has thickest armour, since we still have the FSWS project out there... Also, the NT-1+Chobham armour is likely still thicker than RX-78-2.

Yes sorry I should have clarified. Setting aside the Full Armor types, the RX 78-2 would have the thickest armor of all the normal-armored Gundam varieties. From what I've read Gundam Pixie has the thinnest (or perhaps the G-Line light armor) but I've no experience with the game the Pixie originated from.

Likely so, which brings in a fun fact, the RX-77 is a heavier unit than RX-78.
It was designed to have more armour but less mobile in mind.

I've always found it interesting the Guncannon with Luna Titanium had thicker armor but appeared to suffer more grievous injuries than the Gundam. We see a giant bazooka tear open part of the Guncannon's during the third arc of the series, but the only time we see the same done to the Gundam is from Ramba Ral's heat sword. Here were a few ideas I had regarding that:

1. Since the learning computer was tantamount to the war effort the Gundam may have had ultra thick torso armor to protect it and the pilot.
2. Similar to 1, the Guncannon is heavier overall but has the armor distributed evenly over the entire body whereas the Gundam has the armor thickness concentrated in certain areas. In essence the Gundam sacrificed thickness in places unlikely to be struck, too bad they didn't expect a heat rod to the foot.
3. Guncannon may have had an inferior method of installing the armor or perhaps welding issues that necessitated using other materials as plating underneath to make the welds bond and meet the required shear strength.

But the most important part I think they used RX-77 parts is the head for the RGM-79[G].
I think they decided to use the visor head of RX-77 on the GMs because it is a better, more balanced design, with longer sensing range unlike the Gundam head focusing on close combat(wider sensing angle)

Ah yes, I remember that from this thread, I refer back to that one often actually. Too bad the specs are goofy, 5.7km vs 6km.

I am just saying by density and mass, they should have similar material.

So Luna-Titanium is better than Titanium alloy usually described as stronger, lighter or both. It's described as a honey-comb material, and I've also seen it called a foam metal. Talking real world aluminum foam it's obviously quite a bit lighter than regular Al. Either honeycomb or foam, Luna Ti should be less dense than Titanium alloy for a given amount of armor.

Yes, if we look at Sentinel, S and Z+ both are using Gundarium gamma, and likely the expensive stuff, but S still have greater defence because it is just that much more expensive.(Z+ armour being penetrated with more holes even when they are slower when entering the AA fire, but well, both Z+ survived the operation with no real damage to non-armour parts so I'd say that S is just overspec.)

Sentinel is next on my reading list but I could have sworn S and Z+ used a cheaper "Gundarium composite" that was weaker than standard Gundarium. Ah, found it, here' are the threads I was thinking of.

[MythSearcher]

That's a fascinating bit of lore for the bazooka lore. I'm firmly with you, I think the mm size change likely went from people measuring how large it should be instead of tossing out numbers like throwing darts on a board. I recall reading a few threads about this how the size of the explosives with the ammo count listed means it wouldn't be physically possible to fit into the ammo pack.

I'm curious about the anti-ship rounds. Since Zaku MGs have such a hard time against the white base, is there any reason why they wouldn't use an anti-ship round instead?

Someone posted a picture of the 3 types of ammo the 120mm has, but I don't remember which post.
The reason would be similar to why they didn't have the right ammo when they first met RX-78, they seem to be carrying ammo for softer targets(mainly HE rounds that explode instead of anti armour rounds that penetrate)
Their main operation interest isn't taking down the Gundam in the beginning(its a reconnaissance mission, its just that they are being idiotic and went out of their way to start attacking.)
Later missions they likely have the main interest in taking down the MS or at least have to take into account that they will be fighting MS before having higher chance in taking down the mother ship.
There is also the fact that WB is way heavier than the Salamis. WB range in 65000t, Salamis around 20000t(depending on the variant). WB is similar in weight as the Magellan, but since it is a smaller ship with more internal space for MS storage, it is very likely an armour heavy ship.

From what I've read Gundam Pixie has the thinnest (or perhaps the G-Line light armor) but I've no experience with the game the Pixie originated from.

Same here, it was supposed to be similar to the RX-79[G] where it used left over parts.
From the Japanese wikipedia, it seems like it did not reduce in armour, but have armour focused in defending against solid projectiles with a coating called "Beam Stealth Coat"(stated only in game with no details)
The lightening of weight is by reducing the vernier thrusters and not armour.
That being said, spec gives us a higher thrust and generator output than RX-78-2, but a lighter empty weight than even the NT-1.
Best case scenario it will have barely same (absolute) armour thickness with your regular RX-78-2, but material wise not very likely.

I've always found it interesting the Guncannon with Luna Titanium had thicker armor but appeared to suffer more grievous injuries than the Gundam. We see a giant bazooka tear open part of the Guncannon's during the third arc of the series, but the only time we see the same done to the Gundam is from Ramba Ral's heat sword. Here were a few ideas I had regarding that:

1. Since the learning computer was tantamount to the war effort the Gundam may have had ultra thick torso armor to protect it and the pilot.
2. Similar to 1, the Guncannon is heavier overall but has the armor distributed evenly over the entire body whereas the Gundam has the armor thickness concentrated in certain areas. In essence the Gundam sacrificed thickness in places unlikely to be struck, too bad they didn't expect a heat rod to the foot.
3. Guncannon may have had an inferior method of installing the armor or perhaps welding issues that necessitated using other materials as plating underneath to make the welds bond and meet the required shear strength.

I'd say there is one more possible explanation.
The RX-77 is slow compared to RX-78, and the pilot(s) less competent. The red colouring really isn't helping much for avoiding enemy fire as well.
So it is just a simple case of being hit more times, more often.

That being said, the EFF also built more of these, so while it is easier to get replacement parts, the armour replacement is likely closer to mass production units than the luxurious RX-78 top of the line ultra nice shelf display expected to be on demo for the higher-ups grade armour.

Ah yes, I remember that from this thread, I refer back to that one often actually. Too bad the specs are goofy, 5.7km vs 6km.

That is 5% difference and is pretty huge if we look at real world comparisons.

So Luna-Titanium is better than Titanium alloy usually described as stronger, lighter or both. It's described as a honey-comb material, and I've also seen it called a foam metal. Talking real world aluminum foam it's obviously quite a bit lighter than regular Al. Either honeycomb or foam, Luna Ti should be less dense than Titanium alloy for a given amount of armor.

Ah, sorry, I should clarify.
I mean the material mass used are similar.
So if you take all the armour material from RX-78 and all the armour material from GM and mould them into two cubes, the RX-78 cube will be much larger. But the thickness and effective density of them are similar when distributed onto the respective MS.
But since foam metal is lighter, GM's armour will have more visible space in between plates of it to take up the bulk of the space.(The GM do not look any skinnier than RX-78) That is why I say their effective density are the same. If you take a plate down, wrap it in plastic wrap and stick it under water, it will take up similar volume and of similar weight. Remove the plastic wrap the GM will likely be taking in water and end up with less volume(may or may not be exactly the case, they can still seal all holes into the spaces)

Sentinel is next on my reading list but I could have sworn S and Z+ used a cheaper "Gundarium composite" that was weaker than standard Gundarium. Ah, found it, here' are the threads I was thinking of.

S and Z+ are Gundarium γ composite(ガンダリウムγコンポジット) while the other MS in the book are listed with Gundarium composite(ガンダリウム・コンポジット). These two are said in plot to have top grade armour material, so it is not a cheaper variant.
In the same book, Rick Dias and all AE Gundam listed in page 72 are also listed as having Gundarium γ composite, thus its the same as Gundarium γ in other publications, just extra (redundant) details.

The link you gave was pretty biased in the way that none of them seem to have read Sentinel nor have first hand material. They seem to be just pulling off MAHQ pages with some remote knowledge of the summary of the story.

Task Force Alpha was stated over and over as having the best equipment to be intimidating. This is why they scrambled a lot of newly developed units like the S, Z+ and FAZZ are pulled off the line(notice ZZ was not rolled out until quite some time later and ZZ-FA almost a year later) the whole task force is a power display of the best units EFSF can muster, hoping to win the battle without a fight(similar mentality as before OYW against Zeon, just in a smaller scale) The image of the team being cheap might be from the FAZZ being called paper tigers, they aren't meant for battle to begin with, they are test units for ZZ-FA with dummy head and abdomen cannons, fixed armour and removed some internal structure for a bigger generator. The armour is basically just ballast for testing the balance of the unit, like when Elon Musk launched the Tesla in the Falcon, so it doesn't need to have the best armour. They are only good for the extreme range gun battle because the had a big generator that made them capable of firing the large Hyper Mega Cannon, but that's it. Once in closer range combat they are doomed.
On the other hand, S and Z+ were over spec in all cases. One of the arc have them flying into enemy airspace destroying its power station with the enemy surprised that the EFSF already mass produced Zeta class TMS(which is the scene before the bullet hole scene I listed up there) and showing they completely changed military tactics used.
Enemy veteran ACE pilot that was an instructor and responsible for writing the motion modules is thinking about how the battlefield was changed just by more advanced units and his experience has little help when facing such a superior machine(S).(Ironically, he is also using a new unit at the time, just less advanced.)
S is everything of its name sake, Superior. A completely refined ZZ, with a better cockpit design, better combination design, better transformation capability, better armour distribution, better rockets, better sensors, more weapon varieties, more equipment options, etc.
Each of the A, B, C parts of S is deemed to be at least in the same tier as a mass production MS is capable of, which is why they were separated into 3 units in the last battle when they have inferior numbers to the enemy, ALICE suggesting combining back to S is the best choice of action only when they are overwhelmed by power like the Mk-V and Zodiac.(and because they sucked in every possible way new pilots can suck at)
The Z+ are not meant for Karaba, at least the C types aren't.
Karaba ordered the Z+ A and B types, which are designed for combat within the atmosphere. After the merge of AEUG and EFF, they would like their own Z+, but require them to be able to fight in space(and they don't like the idea of using the same unit as Karaba, an anti-EF fraction, they also likely have higher budget for each unit) so the C types are designed and fielded by EFSF.
They also have all newly built GM IIIs(the Nouvels) and the then planned next in line mass production MS Nero, which is using data from two Gundams developed by AE.(Lambda Gundam and S Gundam)

[Underrated GM Custom]

Later missions they likely have the main interest in taking down the MS or at least have to take into account that they will be fighting MS before having higher chance in taking down the mother ship.

Agreed, the White Base is definitely well armored. Just to make sure I understand, were the Zaku units using anti-ship rounds later on in the series? Were they low production special issue only?

Same here, it was supposed to be similar to the RX-79[G] where it used left over parts.
From the Japanese wikipedia, it seems like it did not reduce in armour, but have armour focused in defending against solid projectiles with a coating called "Beam Stealth Coat"(stated only in game with no details)
The lightening of weight is by reducing the vernier thrusters and not armour.

Oh interesting, I had thought it was an RX78 variant, didn't realize it was more similar to a RX-79[G]. Based on the art and shape of it it certainly looks less armored. The MAHQ profile didn't mention anything about thrusters, just the removal of the coreblock system. Seems odd that a stealth coat would improve ballistic defense, perhaps that's a mistranslation?

I'd say there is one more possible explanation.
The RX-77 is slow compared to RX-78, and the pilot(s) less competent. The red colouring really isn't helping much for avoiding enemy fire as well.
So it is just a simple case of being hit more times, more often.

I like this explanation quite a bit!

Ah, sorry, I should clarify.
I mean the material mass used are similar.

Ah I see what you mean now, thanks for the clarification.

S and Z+ are Gundarium γ composite. These two are said in plot to have top grade armour material, so it is not a cheaper variant.

The link you gave was pretty biased in the way that none of them seem to have read Sentinel nor have first hand material. They seem to be just pulling off MAHQ pages with some remote knowledge of the summary of the story.

Oh interesting, I didn't realize Z+ was mentioned as having top grade armor material. I had thought the Zeta Plus series was about cost savings wherever they could get it.

I wouldn't call the post by Mark biased, he simply mentions that the composite is slightly inferior or a more watered down version suitable for mass production to reduce costs.

Task Force Alpha was...

I'll wait to read over this section till after I've read through Sentinel, I don't want to give too much away.

[MythSearcher]

Agreed, the White Base is definitely well armored. Just to make sure I understand, were the Zaku units using anti-ship rounds later on in the series? Were they low production special issue only?

I don't think they show anything visible on screen to tell the difference.
But the rounds surely aren't special issue considering for the majority of the war(10 months into the one year) they are mostly fighting ships and not MS in space.
They have other targets, like space fighters and tanks, but I'd say the anti-tank rounds will be similar to the anti-ship rounds.

Oh interesting, I had thought it was an RX78 variant, didn't realize it was more similar to a RX-79[G]. Based on the art and shape of it it certainly looks less armored. The MAHQ profile didn't mention anything about thrusters, just the removal of the coreblock system. Seems odd that a stealth coat would improve ballistic defense, perhaps that's a mistranslation?

The 78XX is likely the EFGF version of the G-4 project, but since they are the forefront of the most fierce battle, they have to develop something fast, thus taking RX parts is the quickest option.
From the RX-79[G], we can see that they seem to be pretty confident that the RX project is a success, and don't have a problem taking parts from it. The 78XX is likely taking the best parts though.

Ah, the Beam Stealth Coat is applied on top of the armour, and the armour itself is focused in ballistic defence. They are not the same thing.

Oh interesting, I didn't realize Z+ was mentioned as having top grade armor material. I had thought the Zeta Plus series was about cost savings wherever they could get it.

I wouldn't call the post by Mark biased, he simply mentions that the composite is slightly inferior or a more watered down version suitable for mass production to reduce costs.

Z+ is no where cost saving. They seem to be the highest of the high in the high-low mix. It might be a little bit cheaper than the original Zeta, but not by much. The D and E types are likely on par with the original, if not more expensive.

I don't think I see Mark posting in the Sentinel grade gundarium thread. The bias I referred to is entirely from that thread.
What Mark said in the other thread about the FAZZ is completely correct, well, I don't even think it is just "slightly" inferior, I view them as basically just ballast.

I'll wait to read over this section till after I've read through Sentinel, I don't want to give too much away.

You don't have to read this section now or ever, I am just rambling about how that thread's discussion showed no understanding of the Sentinel story. You probably won't understand it before you read the actual story and kinda a waste of time so read my rambling when your time can be better used in actually reading the story. ;9

You can read the last part though, it is just about the Z+ in the settings part. I will paste it here:

The Z+ are not meant for Karaba, at least the C types aren't.
Karaba ordered the Z+ A and B types, which are designed for combat within the atmosphere. After the merge of AEUG and EFF, they would like their own Z+, but require them to be able to fight in space(and they don't like the idea of using the same unit as Karaba, an anti-EF fraction, they also likely have higher budget for each unit) so the C types are designed and fielded by EFSF.
They also have all newly built GM IIIs(the Nouvels) and the then planned next in line mass production MS Nero, which is using data from two Gundams developed by AE.(Lambda Gundam and S Gundam)

[Underrated GM Custom]

Ah, the Beam Stealth Coat is applied on top of the armour, and the armour itself is focused in ballistic defence. They are not the same thing.

That makes sense thanks for clearing that up.

Z+ is no where cost saving. They seem to be the highest of the high in the high-low mix. It might be a little bit cheaper than the original Zeta, but not by much. The D and E types are likely on par with the original, if not more expensive.

Hmmm. I was under the impression that the purpose of the Zeta plus series was to mass produce a Zeta gundam as cost efficiently as possible. Not to say that they sacrificed performance but that they looked for cost savings where they could get them. The Atmospheric models got rid of the space-related components completely to save costs and I believe all models eschewed the Wave Rider in favor of the cheaper but still effective wing binders of the Hyaku Shiki.

I don't think I see Mark posting in the Sentinel grade gundarium thread. The bias I referred to is entirely from that thread.

Gotcha, I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary while reading that thread but I'm looking forward to re-reading it after I complete Sentinel as well as the info you posted above.

[MythSearcher]

Hmmm. I was under the impression that the purpose of the Zeta plus series was to mass produce a Zeta gundam as cost efficiently as possible. Not to say that they sacrificed performance but that they looked for cost savings where they could get them. The Atmospheric models got rid of the space-related components completely to save costs and I believe all models eschewed the Wave Rider in favor of the cheaper but still effective wing binders of the Hyaku Shiki.

Yes, they are cheaper than the Zeta, but not like what that thread says which make it sounded like Z+ was produced as something like grunts and used inferior material.
They are simply made more efficient, and I seriously have no idea where they cut cost.
Gundarium gamma was all over the place at the time, a lot of mass production units are using, like the Gasa series, the Marasai, it isn't that expensive once AE got its hands on some.
The sensors, generator, thrusters of the Z+ are all superior to Zeta. Maybe not by a lot, but all are slightly increased in performance, unlike the GM, which is all inferior to Gundam sans sensor range(but the thrust to mass ratio is inversed, GM has higher acceleration than Gundam while Zeta has superior acceleration to Z+. So I'd even be hesitant in calling Z+ has less armour than Zeta, its empty weight is so much more than Zeta that even if it is using a less effective material, it is still likely to be very thick in armour, and if you look at the detail designs you will find out that the Z+ likely have more focused armour as well, it didn't have skirt armour and the shoulders are smaller, so where ever they put the armour mass, they must have it much thicker than Zeta's. So I am all for voting Z+ having a higher survivability than Zeta for the pilot if it was hit.(but likely less survivable because the acceleration is less, it's, well, complicated)
Looking at the mass ratio and taking into account that they are of similar period so the rocket's efficiency is similar, the Z+ also likely have a higher delta-v.
The standard weapons for the Z+, the beam smart gun, is also of a much higher output than Zeta's beam rifle and mega beam launcher. Even the thigh cannons have a higher output power than Zeta's beam rifle, and Z+ has two of them. Even if it has to use the more commonly seen Hyakushiki beam rifle like in most of the models and figures, which is less than half the output of Zeta's beam rifle, I'd say that with the thigh cannons, it can still deliver a higher rate of high power beam shots in a short period than Zeta.
The Z+ is a unit with specs much more like real life mass production, where the prototype(Zeta) is actually less powerful than the mass production model because they figured out what they can improve on and how to remove redundancy to make a better unit. And also, likely costs are lowered because they are now producing more, and thus each of the parts aren't unique one off artefacts.
The A and B types didn't have the space combat components, but C1 was completed with atmospheric reentry capabilities, the C4 is even designed to be fighting in Ultra high altitudes so it will be crossing the border of the atmosphere over and over. So I also don't see much cost reduction there.
The D types are the most expensive ones after the E types(reconnaissance types) and likely in very small numbers, that is why I think those are at least as expensive as the original Zeta, if not more.

The only thing about the Zeta that I can think of which the Z+ C type lacks is likely the Bio-sensor. I don't think it was ever mentioned whether Z+ C1 has a Bio-sensor installed. We only know that Re-GZ has it and the prototype of the Re-GZ, Z+ R is converted from a C1. Since Psychommu systems(even the Quasi ones) are expensive, they may have excluded that to make the Z+ cheaper.

[Underrated GM Custom]

So I'd even be hesitant in calling Z+ has less armour than Zeta, its empty weight is so much more than Zeta that even if it is using a less effective material, it is still likely to be very thick in armour, and if you look at the detail designs you will find out that the Z+ likely have more focused armour as well, it didn't have skirt armour and the shoulders are smaller, so where ever they put the armour mass, they must have it much thicker than Zeta's. So I am all for voting Z+ having a higher survivability than Zeta for the pilot if it was hit.(but likely less survivable because the acceleration is less, it's, well, complicated)

That's very interesting, I would have guessed the Zeta Plus would be thinner armor as a mass production type for reasons similar to what we discussed above. The Gundam being a first of it's kind likely has the thickest armor since you don't want your prototype smashed to pieces, better to start high and revise with the later models. Plus it's important to ensure the Learning Computer survives. Then with Alex, I've changed my opinion and think it's quite a bit more durable.

When it comes to Alex and Zeta one thing I would consider is that these were both designed with a specific pilot in mind, a Newtype Ace. From a design perspective if you're making a one-off machine for a one-of-a-kind Ace then you'd likely want it to be as durable as possible to make sure they're not killed in action from a glancing shot.

So my first thought would have been the Zeta which was defined for Kamille would be must more durable and tough than a Zeta Plus which isn't designed specifically for a one-of-a-kind Newtype. I suppose you could make the opposite argument and say armor is less important for a Newtype Ace, hah, now that I think about it that argument would support Alex being designed with less armor.

The standard weapons for the Z+, the beam smart gun, is also of a much higher output than Zeta's beam rifle and mega beam launcher.

Do you have any recommended reading to learn more about the beam smart gun aside from reading Sentinel. I've found a lot of great info in this thread but was curious if there was more floating out there.

The only thing about the Zeta that I can think of which the Z+ C type lacks is likely the Bio-sensor. We only know that Re-GZ has it and the prototype of the Re-GZ, Z+ R is converted from a C1.

Fascinating, I had no idea the Re-GZ has a biosensor installed. I suppose we don't see it long enough in CCA for it to kick in. Or perhaps the Biosensor is a late addition retcon after the move premiered.

[MythSearcher]

That's very interesting, I would have guessed the Zeta Plus would be thinner armor as a mass production type for reasons similar to what we discussed above. The Gundam being a first of it's kind likely has the thickest armor since you don't want your prototype smashed to pieces, better to start high and revise with the later models. Plus it's important to ensure the Learning Computer survives. Then with Alex, I've changed my opinion and think it's quite a bit more durable.

When it comes to Alex and Zeta one thing I would consider is that these were both designed with a specific pilot in mind, a Newtype Ace. From a design perspective if you're making a one-off machine for a one-of-a-kind Ace then you'd likely want it to be as durable as possible to make sure they're not killed in action from a glancing shot.

So my first thought would have been the Zeta which was defined for Kamille would be must more durable and tough than a Zeta Plus which isn't designed specifically for a one-of-a-kind Newtype. I suppose you could make the opposite argument and say armor is less important for a Newtype Ace, hah, now that I think about it that argument would support Alex being designed with less armor.

I don't think a prototype really need to have more armour if it is not planning to be out on the field. All you need is to have reasonably similar armour mass for testing the balance of the system. RX-78 isn't planned to be out in the field that soon, but at least it was designed during war time, so they might have considered the possibility of it so they put up thick armour to begin with. NT-1 was planned to be a combat unit for Amuro, so it reasonably have combat armour.
FAZZ likely was not planned for combat, so the armour is there for balance testing.
Yes, you don't want your prototype smashed to pieces, but that is not very likely when you have it tested in a reasonably controlled environment. You won't have it as target practice, the bumping into surrounding things aren't going to be as vigorous as when on the battlefield like the enemy may tackle you or something(I don't think it will be common to have melee combat in real life, but they do show that to be a major concern in universe)
The Zeta and Z+, on the other hand, are units ready for combat. Zeta while being a prototype, was designed to be place in combat from the initial stages like NT-1. And field data likely improved the design into Z+ where the armour is needed more. On the other hand, I'd doubt Kamille designs are ideal in the armour category because he had no experience in designing combat models(he only designed racing JMS) and his contribution is in the transformation parts, so he might have ignored armour but it would not be easy for the AE engineers to modify the designs before having real data.
I'd say having less armour for NT pilots but faster unit is likely, but not always the case. During OYW, no matter how fast and agile your MS is, the thrust to mass ratio is mostly pathetic, so they don't really take too much armour away just because the unit is faster. The fun thing you can see is that they even put on more thrusters for NT-1's chobham armour and its thrust to mass ratio actually increased after having extra armour, so we can see EFSF isn't really a believer in dodging, like Quattro on the Hyakushiki or what Strike Freedom's design notes says the Three Ship Alliance(or Lacus) does.

Do you have any recommended reading to learn more about the beam smart gun aside from reading Sentinel. I've found a lot of great info in this thread but was curious if there was more floating out there.

The Beam Smart Gun was basically just from Sentinel, so you don't have other sources. You can get some in the MG, HG manuals, but either they aren't detailed, or just the same as Sentinel settings.

Fascinating, I had no idea the Re-GZ has a biosensor installed. I suppose we don't see it long enough in CCA for it to kick in. Or perhaps the Biosensor is a late addition retcon after the move premiered.

I haven't been thinking about it too much until some discussion recently and found the HG or MG manual has that description So I don't know if they have it in earlier sources.