EFSF fleet modernization program in response to Zeon?

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False Prophet
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EFSF fleet modernization program in response to Zeon?

The Salamis and Magellan were rolled out in U.C. 0070, right? And in 0068, Degwin Zabi became the successor of Zeon Deikun. Do you you think the EFSF's modernization of their fleets was a response to Degwin Zabi? EF intelligence must had known what kind of ambition did the Zabis have, and so maybe the EFSF needed something to respond to them just in case? It could also be a show of force to send a message to other colonies not to follow the footsteps of Side 3.

On the other hand, this could've been a concidence. Developing a new class of battleship takes a lot of time, and the Magellan and Salamis projects could've had been started when Zeon Deikun was still alive. Secondly, how much aggression did the Zabis show during the early days of the Principality? This was before they've had any idea about mobile suits or their eventual supremacy on the battlefield, right? (I really need to check when did the MS-01 come out in the original timeline).
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Re: EFSF fleet modernization program in response to Zeon?

It seems likely that the 70s Armament Reinforcement Plan was in response to Zeon's rise. It's odd however that long after Mobile Suits became a mainstay, the EFS never seem to simply mothball all older ships and replace them completely with ones purposely built to carry MS.
Granted a fleet reconstruction takes a lot of money; but the EF had taxes from practically the entire Earth Sphere, plus the Jupiter Energy Fleet. And when you look at all the money they spent on numerous prototypes of Gundams, it seems especially odd they didn't just completely replace the Magellan and Salamis classes with the Pegasus, Clop, and Ra Calluim Classes.
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Re: EFSF fleet modernization program in response to Zeon?

After its establishment as a separate branch of service in UC 0059, which may have been a response to Side 3 Munzo declaring its independence and establishing the Colony Republican Guard the year before, the Earth Federation Forces seem to have settled on a plan of major update cycles for their armaments every ten years. The Year 70 Armament Reinforcement Plan wasn't the first one, the first was the Year 60 Armament Reinforcement Plan which also produced new classes of ship and new weapons geared around space combat.
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Re: EFSF fleet modernization program in response to Zeon?

Mafty wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 10:46 am It seems likely that the 70s Armament Reinforcement Plan was in response to Zeon's rise. It's odd however that long after Mobile Suits became a mainstay, the EFS never seem to simply mothball all older ships and replace them completely with ones purposely built to carry MS.
I'd say there's two factors there. One is cost factor and the other is poliical.

If we look in today's world and treat a MS as an aircraft and a spaceship as a Naval ship here are some costs.

F18 Super Hornet unit cost ~$67M
Zumwalt Destroyer unit cost $4.24B
Gerald Ford Aircraft Carrier unit cost ~$13B

So a Destroyer (similar to a Salamis) is about 60 times the cost of a fighter and a carrier is 188 times the cost of the Aircraft. Granted the ratios change when you factor in the F35 and it's cost overruns but I chose the Hornet since it's still our primary aircraft. Now you might be thinking, well, with all of Earth's money surely we can afford this. And you're right, the Federation can afford it.

But on the political side asking to replace a recently built fleet with a new one and mothball the still usable old one would be political suicide no matter how you swing it. To continue using today's example, it would be asking to replace the entire current fleet with a new one. The military budget is already a hotly contested issue, and for several years the Navy has been asking to increase its current fleet to 300+ ships (similar to the Cold War era) with near zero progress. Asking to double or triple the Navy's costs for a fleet wide replacement just wouldn't happen, especially not in peacetime.

From a military perspective, logically it makes sense to replace the Salamis et al in order to improve your odds of winning wars, but governments are not always perfectly logical and they don't always want their resources monopolized on just military expenditures which would further strain budgets that might be spent on infrastructure, public health, economic development, etc.

One last item worth mentioning. We only compared acquisition costs. The service also gets an O&M operations and maintenance budget, which is the money spent to maintain and upkeep it's fleet and shore facilities. It's important not to forget that while the Carrier may only be 200x the cost of a fighter to buy, the maintenance costs are a drastically higher ratio from both a labor and materials perspective.
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Re: EFSF fleet modernization program in response to Zeon?

Side note, the Year 60 Armament Reinforcement started in 0060, which is likely not a very good idea from the EF in hind sight. Most of the newly built ships that went on the fleet review in 0064, are pretty much rendered obsolete as early as 0065 with the discovery of the Minovsky particle and the prove of the effects of M particles in 0069.

The Year 60 plan ships do not have the Minovsky-Ienesco generators and thus not using thermo-nuclear rockets and still using solid rounds for their main weapons, will stand no chance in the M particle tech ships.
The only thing that plan did is probably structured the organisation of the EFSF.

The Year 70 Armament Reinforcement did not have a setted date in the settings, the closest to it is the Sep 0070 entry of Magellan and Salamis of the project was rolled out then. I highly doubt they really can roll out newly designed ships in just 9 months, so the plan is likely started earlier in the late 60's.

And yes, both of these programs are in response to Zeon, the first is the declaration of independence of Republic of Zeon and the second is likely to Zeon switching to be a principality on 15 Aug 0069.

EF likely ordered the design and manufacture of the ships immediately after the switch for them to role out in a year. Even that is still pushing the limits, but consider in OYW they managed to build over 80 new ships for Operation Star One, I guess it is possible to do so.
Underrated GM Custom wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 12:08 pm I'd say there's two factors there. One is cost factor and the other is poliical.

If we look in today's world and treat a MS as an aircraft and a spaceship as a Naval ship here are some costs.

F18 Super Hornet unit cost ~$67M
Zumwalt Destroyer unit cost $4.24B
Gerald Ford Aircraft Carrier unit cost ~$13B

So a Destroyer (similar to a Salamis) is about 60 times the cost of a fighter and a carrier is 188 times the cost of the Aircraft. Granted the ratios change when you factor in the F35 and it's cost overruns but I chose the Hornet since it's still our primary aircraft. Now you might be thinking, well, with all of Earth's money surely we can afford this. And you're right, the Federation can afford it.
While I don't really agree to the cost comparison because of reasons I will be stating later, I like the use of Zumwalt for the Salamis.
The Salamis is a cruiser, not a destroyer, but the truth is, the Zumwalt is supposed to be a cruiser as well. They called it a destroyer pretty much just for passing congress. The tonnage is VERY heavy for a destroyer and bigger than any active serving cruisers in the US Navy.
It is also trying to stack every new technology onboard, thus making it very expensive whether if you view it as a cruiser or destroyer.

The Salamis is likely very similar to the last point, the Magellans aren't too far away.
The Minovsky particle and Mega particle cannons are pretty new, like I said above, they don't really have too much time in between their role out and the discovery of M particles. In fact, Zeon only successfully testing the Mega particle cannons in May 0070, they didn't have a date for when EF did the same but the passage on M physics said they did it almost at the same time, so they have 4 months after the testing to mass produce the cannons and install them on the ships.

I don't agree to the cost comparison of fighters to MS is because they are obviously much more expensive compared to fighters vs ships. Notice even after they switch to MS tactics their MS to ship ratio is still far lower than modern times. Granted they have MS on almost every cruiser and battleships after 0088, and not carried by a few large carriers, they still seem to be much less reliant on MS in quantity, but more on their quality. So each MS seems to be covering around 2~5 fighters' positions if compared to real life, and they still have a lot of ships. Notice the replaced 400 Salamis with Clops in the 0090s. This is still just cruisers, the EFSF fleet contains many lesser ships as well.
But on the political side asking to replace a recently built fleet with a new one and mothball the still usable old one would be political suicide no matter how you swing it. To continue using today's example, it would be asking to replace the entire current fleet with a new one. The military budget is already a hotly contested issue, and for several years the Navy has been asking to increase its current fleet to 300+ ships (similar to the Cold War era) with near zero progress. Asking to double or triple the Navy's costs for a fleet wide replacement just wouldn't happen, especially not in peacetime.
Mafty wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 10:46 am It seems likely that the 70s Armament Reinforcement Plan was in response to Zeon's rise. It's odd however that long after Mobile Suits became a mainstay, the EFS never seem to simply mothball all older ships and replace them completely with ones purposely built to carry MS.
Granted a fleet reconstruction takes a lot of money; but the EF had taxes from practically the entire Earth Sphere, plus the Jupiter Energy Fleet. And when you look at all the money they spent on numerous prototypes of Gundams, it seems especially odd they didn't just completely replace the Magellan and Salamis classes with the Pegasus, Clop, and Ra Calluim Classes.

Still, sadly, it was necessary in 0070, but not as much afterwards. The new ships that went on display in 0064 won't survive a battle against mega particle cannons. They likely can't move too far away from their originally positioned base because they still used chemical rockets.
EFSF likely have to switch every single ship they had before 0070 to newer, M physics tech ships.

This is kinda like the British fleet after Dreadnought, the designs of THE Dreadnought basically rendered all of their newly built but inferior in design obsolete, so they have to just go and start replacing them, again.

The EF can pull that off likely because Zeon did pose a visible threat and displaying their mega particle cannons is likely very devastating to the EF parliament and citizens. Yes, Zeon likely did a very bad decision for displaying that, while they think it is a display of their military powers, it also very likely pushed the EF into agreeing to replace every single one of their newly built ships to something that can face such a horrible power.

The Salamis is such a well designed modular ship that they really don't have to replace it completely.
I'd like to think of it this way, they have to rush the design and production of the Salamis when they just got a bunch of(likely in the thousands if we look at the fleet size of EFSF at the start of OYW) and they fully considered the risk of it being obsolete again in a very short period because of all these new technology. So they made the ship as flexible as possible. I like the term used for it, an "Incomplete" ship. It left behind a lot of room for improvement, and while we call it as a single class of ship, it actually fulfil many different roles with different modules. You get the Gun type (for participating the ship of line), you also get the Reconnaissance type, the anti-air type, the carrier type(for carrying space fighters, likely the Vinson plan conversions used these as the base), etc.
And boy aren't they right. The M particles scattering basically rendered a lot of the electronic warfare systems useless, and they have to upgrade them in less than a decade. The Salamis actually survived until 0153 and have been able to convert to ships that carry beam shields and operation within the atmosphere, I must say this is likely the best purchase the EFF made throughout all of the known history of UC.
The Magellan being the heavier ship didn't share such luxury, but still pretty flexible and at least used until 0088 and have some of them convert to MS carriers(Those in Sentinel)

This is why the EFSF never got rid of the Salamis. Actually, the Clop isn't a vastly superior ship than the Salamis, the carrying capacity aren't higher.(the Sentinel variant can carry up to 9 Neros, the regular 4 is likely not a limit in capacity but regular patrolling needs)
https://truth.bahamut.com.tw/s01/201203 ... aac282.JPG
The red area is the MS hangar space+working area, you can see that the Clop's isn't that big.
Also, this picture took a smaller Salamis size, if you take the 288m Salamis vs the 292m Clop(only 4m difference) you can see that the Salamis had much more internal space since most of its length is dedicated to the catapult and the engine block extending out are, well, mostly engine.

the Salamis modified(0087) actually had more main guns.(5 more barrels to be exact) and an additional 16 barrels secondary guns. While the Clop had none. The Clop does have more missile launchers, but ahem, M particles.

The Clop is superior in its operational time and thus better in patrolling. They carry 5~6 MS is likely in response to the more active Zeon remnants operations in the 0090's, but that seems to be it. (Like I pointed out, the Salamis can carry up to 9 if need be, notice they have many more Columbus class as support ships so they don't have to carry in excess like in late OYW battles in Solomon and ABQ)
From what I see, the Clop is better as a long term patrol and defence ship. While the Salamis, if upgraded with period level tech, is more suited as an attack ship. It is more suited in shorter operations and direct conflict, but with its shorter operational time(still in months, it can actually perform missions all the way to the Asteroid belt and Mars as long as you install a booster on it.), it is not as suited as the Clop on patrols.
However, with upgrades the Salamis is still a very capable ship, and I'd say it is actually better than the Clop in a lot of missions when they need to have a fleet on an attack or reconnaissance mission and also likely as reinforcement ships that need to get to the scene very fast when the patrol ships aren't able to take care of the situation. Granted, when the Clop rolled out, the Salamis aren't upgraded and thus the Clop will be used more extensively, but with the Salamis slowly upgraded, they were seen still in operation in 0153 in pretty frontline situations.

They never design ships that only carry MS like the aircraft carriers in UC.
The closest you get are the Columbus class (modified 0083) which only have machine guns that aren't even useful for anti air guns against MS.
No, the Dolos class has more main guns than the biggest battleship in that period, the 440m class Gwazine. It is not a pure carrier ship and is a gun ship and likely why Gihren idiotically placed them in the very frontline during ABQ and got them sunk pretty early with most of the other ships about 30 mins full battle speed travel time away behind them.
The reason is likely there are so little MS with the capability to actually carry enough fire power to take down space bases. They required some sort of main guns to do more serious damage to asteroid bases and colonies, and being really hard to be stealthy in space and very long effective range of mega particle cannons also meant their ships are usually within firing distance unlike real life aircraft carriers that can hide very far away.
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Re: EFSF fleet modernization program in response to Zeon?

Isn't it weird that whenever the EFF want a new flagship, they build an entire class for the purpose. It is seems like there wasn't a any plan to mass-produce the Pegasus-class, Argama-class or Ra Cailum-class. And don't get me start on the Dogosse Giar-class ... Were they really that expensive to produce compared to their lesser brethren? Is it because of the Minovsky Craft System? Because I don't remember anything mass-produced before the Irish-class actually flied on Earth, and the EFF relied on the Medeas, Gaws and Garudas to move their MS around.

Secondly, what is our most trusted source on when was Minovsky particles were discovered? I wonder if that discovery really push space exploration to the next stage. It surely led to the creation of the Jupiter Fleet and Jupiter Empire, that is for sure.
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Re: EFSF fleet modernization program in response to Zeon?

The mass productions aspect seems to vary somewhat. There are so many different Pegasus class ships you'd lose count; and many appear in official animated works (like 0080, Stardust Memory, Thunderbolt, and even back in the original series with the Thoroughbred), and not just manga side stories. The Argama was first built by the AEUG (though I don't know why nobody built more after the AEUG was folded back into the EF). The Ra Callium seems to have started out as a one off flagship (like the Birmingham from 0083) for the Londo Bell Taskforce (The Clop seems to have a similar purpose in limited production, as does the Jeagan MS), and all small to be part of the "Scaling Down" of Military Hardware in later UC. Likewise the Doggosse Giar was a one off Titans Flagship(then Unicorn goes and introduces another one). Which leads to another question; are speciliaty ships like this supposed to be Flagships of an entire Fleet? Or are they meant to be simply high powered limited battleships? Like False Prophet said it can be kinda hard to tell...
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Re: EFSF fleet modernization program in response to Zeon?

We have the Ra Cailum which is a pretty strong ship but it is more balanced and cost effective compared to the Pegasus class ships including the spin-off Argama which was based on them. Pegasus class and Argama class are carriers.

Ra Cailum is a main battleship class which is often used as a flagship too, we see the original ship as the flagship of Londo Bell, but also other ships of the line in F91 and Victory Gundam, Victory Gundam to the point of it having a beam shield for the General Revel looking commander.

Ra Cailum class is pretty balanced in terms of speed, MS capacity and firepower. The only thing it does not have is the super ship weapons like Argama and Nahel Argama have. Nahal Argama is also very poorly balanced too outside of being a carrier and its hyper particle cannon. Argama isn't too far behind either but it is more manuverable than the Nahal Argama.
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Re: EFSF fleet modernization program in response to Zeon?

Side note, it is the Cailum Class, not the Ra Cailum class. The name IS from Ra Cailum, but the class name skipped the "Ra" part. At least in the original Japanese texts.
False Prophet wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:49 am Isn't it weird that whenever the EFF want a new flagship, they build an entire class for the purpose. It is seems like there wasn't a any plan to mass-produce the Pegasus-class, Argama-class or Ra Cailum-class. And don't get me start on the Dogosse Giar-class ... Were they really that expensive to produce compared to their lesser brethren? Is it because of the Minovsky Craft System? Because I don't remember anything mass-produced before the Irish-class actually flied on Earth, and the EFF relied on the Medeas, Gaws and Garudas to move their MS around.
They are likely not really that much more expensive to build but likely more expensive to upkeep, its just that they don't really have that much use for them to be in the hundreds. Your flagship of the fleet is like the least efficient ship in the fleet, you don't really want it out all the time because just sailing a bigger ship is more costly, not to mention the shock your troops will feel if it was sunk. There are less and less use of large battleships after OYW and towards 0100, because there aren't a clear and powerful enemy with a large fleet. What they need are smaller ships that can perform regular patrols. So you have a few larger ships as a display of your power, and as a message to everyone that if they want to build something like this, they can. And renew it from time to time as they see fit because of the period's political reasons.(The Dogosse Giar-class is likely doomed because of the relation with Titans, thus they have to at least make the General Revil less resembling it)

This is not really strange or anything.
In real life almost none of the capital ships are mass-produced in the sense of our daily life mass-production product is. Most of them are produced in single digit numbers and each of them are slightly(understatement) different.
You can look at the Aircraft carriers of the US Navy nowadays, they are not even the same class.

The EFSF probably had enough of this as well, think about it, they had to scrap every single ship they just built in the 0060 within the decade, they had to rush the Magellans, then those became obsolete again in less than a decade, again. They definitely don't want to build another class in the hundreds and then face the same situation. So they upgrade the ships and don't want to have anything to do with replacing in mass their capital battleship in mass. The EF parliament likely also won't be easily approving that during their political life time as well.

The flagship is supposed to be a ship with very good communication capabilities and survivability, and as the spiritual leader of your Navy, usually you want it to be a powerful capital ship to boost your troops moral. The idea of having most of your fleet fitted with the same class of battleship like the Magellan is actually very strange(lets not delve into the 265m and 327m Magellan paradox which almost every OYW ship faces). It actually means they have the technological means to build larger and more powerful ships(like the Gwazine class which is estimated to be 4 times more powerful than a Magellan) and since they have the resource advantage, they don't really need to care about quantity that much. Yes, it is more logical to build the same ship over and over again, but in real life that almost never happened unless you are talking about much smaller ships like destroyers or frigates.(and never in the hundreds like the Magellan)

The Pegasus is a rather small ship (250m) compared to EFSF's capital ships.(Unless, again, you delve into the 228m Salamis and not the 288m one that makes more sense size wise and 228 is likely a typo of 288, unlike the vastly different numbers)
It might be better in communications thus good for individual missions, but not as the supreme command flagship.
You do get more ships of this class laid out than some other ships, at least more known ones than the Argama class.
You also have the the simplified Pegasus class which is hard to tell apart(There are supposed to be 2~3 different classes of this) and actually the three lots of the Pegasus class is already 4 different designs. First lot of pegasus you get the first design, similar to the WB, the second lot you get the Stallion/Thoroughbred type, and the Gray Phantom type, third lot you have the Albion. Some put the different design as another sub class so it IS a mess, but also actually pretty realistic compared to real life ships, especially when you consider spaceships aren't as strict as navy ships because you have much more freedom in the hull and modular ships like the pegasus can have a more flexible design and will not just sink because the shape is changed.

The Argama is a cruiser and not a battleship, that is why the Irish class was designed instead.
Secondly, what is our most trusted source on when was Minovsky particles were discovered? I wonder if that discovery really push space exploration to the next stage. It surely led to the creation of the Jupiter Fleet and Jupiter Empire, that is for sure.
Gundam Officials.
They discovered the M particle electromagnetic effects in 0064 and confirmed the existence of M particles in 0069.
It does NOT led to the creation of the Jupiter fleet, it is pretty fun that we do not have a setting of when they started to have the Jupiter fleet, but the earliest entry of the Jupiter development fleet is in 0010, where it was "Reorganised" instead of founded. So the EF Jupiter fleet was at least ongoing since then.
The M&Y (Minovsky Ionesco, the English translation had it with an I, but the acronym of the Japanese text is M&Y) corporation was founded in 0047 and started the development of the M&Y thermonuclear generator. M particles wasn't discovered yet.
Zeon's own Jupiter fleet was set out the first time in Oct 0070 and returned in 0074.
Mafty wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 12:42 pm The Argama was first built by the AEUG (though I don't know why nobody built more after the AEUG was folded back into the EF). The Ra Callium seems to have started out as a one off flagship (like the Birmingham from 0083) for the Londo Bell Taskforce (The Clop seems to have a similar purpose in limited production, as does the Jeagan MS), and all small to be part of the "Scaling Down" of Military Hardware in later UC. Likewise the Doggosse Giar was a one off Titans Flagship(then Unicorn goes and introduces another one). Which leads to another question; are speciliaty ships like this supposed to be Flagships of an entire Fleet? Or are they meant to be simply high powered limited battleships? Like False Prophet said it can be kinda hard to tell...
The Argama was not built in mass likely because the EFSF doesn't really need a lot of new cruisers considering the Salamis are running well and they really don't want to have a ship that was used by a fraction that was going against them. The Argama is also likely not a ship that fits EFSF's general doctrine. It is a mobile assault cruiser, and most of the ship of the EFSF are for patrol and defence of its orbits, bases and colonies. They do not need many assault ship, probably the same reason why they do not have a lot of Pegasus built.

The Clop was designed from the beginning to replace at least 400 Salamis, so it is not like the Cailum class.
The Jegan is also planned to be mass produced to replace the aging GM family, come on, the GM III was based on and upgrade from the GM II which was from the GM. With all the technological advancements, the GM frames are way too old (they are 1st generation MS that doesn't have a movable frame and a panoramic cockpit) the parts are very likely getting more expensive to build.
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Re: EFSF fleet modernization program in response to Zeon?

I thought that the reason the US Navy has so many different aircraft carriers class is because they take too long to build that whenever one is completed, new technologies have already come out, giving the Navy a reason to concoct a new class?

If Jupiter fleet already existed in the beginning of UC calendar, then could we presume that colonies had already been built that far from Earth? And, what was the Jupiter Fleet before that "reorganization"? A military-sponsored private-public exploration fleet?

And speaking of the end of the GM, how much different is the Nouvel GM III to a GM III upgraded from GM II? I''m torn between the Nouvel GM III being a wartime stop-gap measure (as the normal GM III could not keep up with Axis MS), or did they really intended it to be an upgrade but found out that they'd reached the limit of the GM design? Given that the Jegan began development in UC88~89, the first scenario seems more likely.
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Re: EFSF fleet modernization program in response to Zeon?

MythSearcher wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 7:17 am While I don't really agree to the cost comparison because of reasons I will be stating later, I like the use of Zumwalt for the Salamis.
The Salamis is a cruiser, not a destroyer, but the truth is, the Zumwalt is supposed to be a cruiser as well. They called it a destroyer pretty much just for passing congress. The tonnage is VERY heavy for a destroyer and bigger than any active serving cruisers in the US Navy.
It is also trying to stack every new technology onboard, thus making it very expensive whether if you view it as a cruiser or destroyer.
Good observation, the Zumwalt is a kitchen sink design and it's weight does put it closer to a cruiser vice a destroyer. It's also a destroyer-replacement thus making it a destroyer. Quite the congress-satisfying tautology eh?

You're 100% correct that the cost basis isn't close exact. A MS would be much more expensive than a fighter. That said I just pulled up some quick numbers just to show a sense of scale for a back of the napkin calculation. Even if a MS is 5x as expensive as a fighter the cost ratio for ships (especially their maintenance) will be much higher. Additionally in the UC all the ships have significant EM Shielding and that kind of hardening does not come cheap so perhaps the ratio wouldn't be too far off.
False Prophet wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 5:45 am I thought that the reason the US Navy has so many different aircraft carriers class is because they take too long to build that whenever one is completed, new technologies have already come out, giving the Navy a reason to concoct a new class?

So it does take an extremely long time to design and build Aircraft Carriers, but it doesn't take so long to do so that we create a new class each time we finish one design. To give you an example since Aircraft Carriers went nuclear there have only been 4 different classes of carriers. The Enterprise which was an prototype to test different reactor designs, the JFK Class (68-07), the Nimitz (75-Present) and the more recent Gerald Ford (2017-Present).

You are correct in thinking that the acquisition pipeline is so long that by the time they are funded, designed and built produced technology may have advanced to a point making certain electro-mechanical systems behind the times. During the design process engineering change mods will come in to change out certain systems to meet a new requirement. On top of that once in service Ships, Subs and Aircraft frequently get retrofitted through their long lifetimes.

Another thing to note that when doing a new Carrier is that it also requires modifications to its port and pier. Both for shore power and also dredging of the channel if a new class requires an increased depth. Often times the ones that drive design and the program managers at OPNAV don't take into factor those considerations, so when a new ships is about to roll out and get a new homeport there's a sudden scramble on the shoreside to upgrade the electrical infrastructure and start dredging which can completely eclipse a bases public works budget.
And speaking of the end of the GM, how much different is the Nouvel GM III to a GM III upgraded from GM II? I''m torn between the Nouvel GM III being a wartime stop-gap measure (as the normal GM III could not keep up with Axis MS), or did they really intended it to be an upgrade but found out that they'd reached the limit of the GM design? Given that the Jegan began development in UC88~89, the first scenario seems more likely.
I had thought the Nouvel GM III and GM III were very similar spec wise, with the Nouvel having slightly higher generator output The difference was the Nouvel GM III was built from scratch while the GM III is an upgrade from a GM II. In turn many GM IIs were retrofits of GM Is. In the military there's always a cost saving mindset and it's always shows up on your bragsheet, so seeing a GM workhouse constantly get refitted and upgraded is one of the most realistic things to see in the show for me.

It may not be effective for battle, but it sure is effective for cost. The Federation in a nutshell, hah.
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Re: EFSF fleet modernization program in response to Zeon?

False Prophet wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 5:45 am I thought that the reason the US Navy has so many different aircraft carriers class is because they take too long to build that whenever one is completed, new technologies have already come out, giving the Navy a reason to concoct a new class?
That and it really doesn't really matter when you are building something this big.
Yes, you can use the same blue prints, but the design costs really isn't going to be very significant within the costs of the whole thing.

Considering they are mass producing space colonies in the hundreds, if not thousands(In previous discussions we have established pretty much that the official number of colonies is unrealistic to have them look like what they look like in shows, the grand open space with very low density living space isn't going to be enough to support such populations) they should have the technology to build a fleet similar in size to the colonies and not mere 200~400m classes. At least they can build more Jupitris' 2000m class ships.

That is why I said the Magellan and the Salamis's mass production is very likely just because of the failed 60's plan. Congress isn't going to be too impressive with the budget spent, so they likely are very conservative for the 70's plan. It was necessary, but you won't get anymore out of the very minimal needs. Unlike later when they are building warships more like real life warships. It would be much easier to get congress to pass a single ship's budget compared to a whole fleet. Well, given the size of the EFSF, probably passing a dozen wouldn't be that bad.
If Jupiter fleet already existed in the beginning of UC calendar, then could we presume that colonies had already been built that far from Earth? And, what was the Jupiter Fleet before that "reorganization"? A military-sponsored private-public exploration fleet?
There are no details for it, but since it is called the Jupiter "Development" fleet, I assume all of the Jupiter colonies were under the responsibilities of this fleet. Considering the Jupiter Empire's existence though, the colonies likely wasn't set up until some time in the 70's or 80's? (Crux Dogatie was born in 0042 and was only really working on the colonies since somewhere in the 60's)

I speculate there were individual fleets from civilian and military purposes, and likely mostly disbanded before 0010 due to low interest or high budget. The EF likely reorganised the fleets into the same project for efficiency.(notice in the 10's the EF was still good)
And speaking of the end of the GM, how much different is the Nouvel GM III to a GM III upgraded from GM II? I''m torn between the Nouvel GM III being a wartime stop-gap measure (as the normal GM III could not keep up with Axis MS), or did they really intended it to be an upgrade but found out that they'd reached the limit of the GM design? Given that the Jegan began development in UC88~89, the first scenario seems more likely.
Probably not much difference, if not making it less mobile.
While it got an increase in generator output, a mere 60kW, its weapons loadout are basically the same. You won't get much more out of it. While it can use the Gundam Mk-II's beam rifle, the rifle itself isn't really common and it is actually less powerful than GM III's standard beam gun.(2.6MW vs 2.8MW)
The weight was increased, so it has more defense, but since the thrusters aren't more powerful, it now has less thrust to mass ratio. It also only has 8 verniers vs the GM III's 10.
The original difference of the added armour and missile pods was also rendered obsolete in Unicorn where you see normal GM III's having them.(though likely suffered from the same reduce in mobility problems)

I guess the Nouvel GM III was made because they needed to field GM IIIs faster, thus some new ones are produced while they are upgrading from the GM II. I doubt it was for the Axis Zeon because 0086 was still during the Gryps conflict, and they likely have to fill the ranks fast for the civil war.(notice they are used against the New De-sides)

Out-universe wise, the Nouvel GM III is Katoki's version. It was actually the original version Katoki submitted for ZZ's mecha designs, but was slightly modified (replaced head) by Yoshinori Sayama and the design was under Sayama's name because he was more famous at the time.(typical promotion tactics in Japan) Katoki just gave out the that design and called it Nouvel GM III in Sentinel.
Underrated GM Custom wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 11:45 am
Good observation, the Zumwalt is a kitchen sink design and it's weight does put it closer to a cruiser vice a destroyer. It's also a destroyer-replacement thus making it a destroyer. Quite the congress-satisfying tautology eh?
I liked the looks and all this fun background, but it really has a lot of problems function and cost wise.
You're 100% correct that the cost basis isn't close exact. A MS would be much more expensive than a fighter. That said I just pulled up some quick numbers just to show a sense of scale for a back of the napkin calculation. Even if a MS is 5x as expensive as a fighter the cost ratio for ships (especially their maintenance) will be much higher. Additionally in the UC all the ships have significant EM Shielding and that kind of hardening does not come cheap so perhaps the ratio wouldn't be too far off.
I am a bit reluctant to say the MS would be much more expensive than a fighter, at least not likely in terms of ratio of capital spent.
Granted, you get the M&Y generator and all the cool M physics tech. However, considering the fighters are also supposed to be state of the art technology all packed together, and the MS is actually easier to design(it won't just stall and drop to the ground destroyed) most of the expensive systems are the propulsion and weapons. The AMBAC system aren't complex in those days, vernier thrusters and any thrust balancing issues should also have long been resolved.
They are only built in less number likely because they are an in between of tank and aircraft, they aren't that fast compared to aircraft so they have to have more armour against the AA guns, which may make then more survivable and have higher damage output against ships and thus they don't need as many.
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Re: EFSF fleet modernization program in response to Zeon?

MythSearcher wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 5:06 am They discovered the M particle electromagnetic effects in 0064 and confirmed the existence of M particles in 0069.
It does NOT led to the creation of the Jupiter fleet, it is pretty fun that we do not have a setting of when they started to have the Jupiter fleet, but the earliest entry of the Jupiter development fleet is in 0010, where it was "Reorganised" instead of founded. So the EF Jupiter fleet was at least ongoing since then.
If you go by some of the older publications, the Jupiter Fleet is a carryover from the pre-U.C. era. The Federation is said to have dispatched its first fleet of energy ships in 2026 A.D.
MythSearcher wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 12:12 amThere are no details for it, but since it is called the Jupiter "Development" fleet, I assume all of the Jupiter colonies were under the responsibilities of this fleet. Considering the Jupiter Empire's existence though, the colonies likely wasn't set up until some time in the 70's or 80's? (Crux Dogatie was born in 0042 and was only really working on the colonies since somewhere in the 60's)

I speculate there were individual fleets from civilian and military purposes, and likely mostly disbanded before 0010 due to low interest or high budget. The EF likely reorganised the fleets into the same project for efficiency.(notice in the 10's the EF was still good)
There's actually a pretty large write up available for the Jupiter Fleet. The only nugget of information we're told about what's at Jupiter is a single line in the biography that says, "a small station has been established in satellite orbit around Jupiter as a base for mining." If you take the Jupiter Mirage manga with a grain of salt, there is still a circular station structure in orbit. You can also vaguely see this depicted in the MS Era image too. The colonies out there as of U.C.0133 are insanely hodgepodge, so it's hard to nail down a timeframe for them. I swore it was mentioned in Crossbone, but I'm too lazy to go back through to see if they mentioned anything. Tomino's original draft for Crossbone doesn't indicate colonies around Jupiter, so I think it's a safe assumption Hasegawa crafted that one. A single station makes more sense anyways versus colonies.

But, the Jupiter Fleet is a semi-private, semi-governmental organization, but it wasn't operating anywhere near the capacity that it is by "today's" standards until it was reorganized in 0010.
The Jupiter Development Enterprise Group is under the jurisdiction of the Federation Forces Staff Council of the Federation government. This is because Helium-3 is not only needed for space development and maintaining Earth’s economy and lifestyle but is also regarded as a “strategic material” that is essential for the operation of military vessels. However, the Federation Forces are only responsible for escorting and quarantining the fleet within the Earth Sphere and are not allowed to conduct inspections or audits that may interfere with its operations. This means that the Jupiter Development Enterprise Group is politically neutral and has an independent internal power structure and operating philosophy.

Due to these circumstances, Enterprise Group staff were never considered to be members of the Federation government.
This is also why there is a clause in the Antarctic Treaty about nonaggression towards them.
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Re: EFSF fleet modernization program in response to Zeon?

Deacon Blues wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 5:08 pm If you go by some of the older publications, the Jupiter Fleet is a carryover from the pre-U.C. era. The Federation is said to have dispatched its first fleet of energy ships in 2026 A.D.
Yes, but that will be even more distant from the Jupiter colonies, I assume.
There's actually a pretty large write up available for the Jupiter Fleet. The only nugget of information we're told about what's at Jupiter is a single line in the biography that says, "a small station has been established in satellite orbit around Jupiter as a base for mining." If you take the Jupiter Mirage manga with a grain of salt, there is still a circular station structure in orbit. You can also vaguely see this depicted in the MS Era image too. The colonies out there as of U.C.0133 are insanely hodgepodge, so it's hard to nail down a timeframe for them. I swore it was mentioned in Crossbone, but I'm too lazy to go back through to see if they mentioned anything. Tomino's original draft for Crossbone doesn't indicate colonies around Jupiter, so I think it's a safe assumption Hasegawa crafted that one. A single station makes more sense anyways versus colonies.

But, the Jupiter Fleet is a semi-private, semi-governmental organization, but it wasn't operating anywhere near the capacity that it is by "today's" standards until it was reorganized in 0010.
Most of these are also found in Gundam Officials, but I was referring only to the 0010 fleet and the establishment of the Jupiter colonies. There are no details about them setting up colonies in 0010. The colonies as mentioned by Crossbone may or may not have been started to build 0010, but their leader during 0133 wasn't born until 0042 and he talked like he was responsible for getting the colonies to be so powerful.
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