Gelgoog Successors?

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Scorpio13
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Gelgoog Successors?

Post by Scorpio13 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:40 pm

I've browsed through the wiki and viewed many mobile suits, but I always felt the gelgoogs legacy after the oyw has been treated poorly.

I know the gablady, regelgu, and the gaz came afterwards. Not my favorite desgin. Though the dejeh and bawooo feel like they are true Successors.

Thoughts?

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Seto Kaiba
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Re: Gelgoog Successors?

Post by Seto Kaiba » Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:34 pm

Scorpio13 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:40 pm
I've browsed through the wiki and viewed many mobile suits, but I always felt the gelgoogs legacy after the oyw has been treated poorly.
History seldom remember the losers fondly.

Scorpio13 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:40 pm
Thoughts?
Depends what you mean by "true successors".

Looking at it in terms of design lineage and technological development, the MS with the best case to call itself the true successor to the MS-14 Gelgoog is the RMS-117 Galbaldy β. The Galbaldy β was an EFF improvement of Zeon's MS-17 Galbaldy α, which was a merger of sorts between the rival design lineages of the Zimmad's YMS-15 Gyan and Zeonic's MS-14A Gelgoog. Consequently, that makes the RMS-117 Galbaldy β a true direct successor to the Gelgoog design. Other Federation and AEUG MS designs based on seized Zeon technology like the AEUG's RMS-099 Rick Dias and the Titans' RMS-106 Hizack and RMS-108 Marasai have a reasonable claim to being spiritual successors of Zeon's Gelgoog and at least partial technological successors since they applied mega-particle weapons to Zeon-based MS designs.

Looking at it in terms of what the next main MS of the Zeonic remnant was, the answer would have to be the Gaza series. The AMX-03 Gaza-C was Axis Zeon's newest main mobile suit when they reemerged onto the scene right in the middle of the Gryps conflict. The AMX-011 Zaku III could stake a reasonable claim too as it in turn became a basis for next-generation Neo Zeon suits like the Geara series, as could the Galbaldy β units that fell into Zeon hands and became the AMX-117L Gaz-L and AMX-117R Gaz-R.
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yazi88
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Re: Gelgoog Successors?

Post by yazi88 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:38 pm

Dijeh also seems heavily inspired by the Gelgoog in terms of visual, especially its beam naginata.

Bawoo is not really anything like the Gelgoog, its pretty much Zeon's version of the Zeta with core block system.

Overall, its the Galbady B. Even though it has Federation tech, its still mostly a Zeon design, even its beam rifle is quite similar to the Gelgoog.

Although in some cases the Rick Dias uses a beam rifle that also looks a lot like the Gelgoog's. Although it could be the same one as the Galbady B...

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Re: Gelgoog Successors?

Post by MythSearcher » Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:09 pm

Read MSV-R Return of Johnny Ridden, you'd be happy to find out that they built a bunch of Gelgoog look alikes that are actually all new technology but only keeping their appearance looking exactly like Gelgoog, and one with addon with a backpack using the Regelg's shoulder thrusters that is designed to have a spec enough to fight Char's NT use MS.

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Re: Gelgoog Successors?

Post by Mafty » Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:24 am

It is sort of strange that Zeon seems to ignore some of their more powerful units(at least outside of sidestories). The Gelgoog was actually the most powerful of Zeon's mast produced MS. Likewise several Neo Zeon MS never seem to get improved upon in the Second Neo Zeon conflict. The Zaku III , Bawoo, Zssa, Doven Wolf , Driessen, and ultimately the Regelgu, are all powerful units or at least heavily armed ones. Yet the Geara Doga is rather limited in both size and armament compared to these. It's also strange the second movement never tries to add the Geymalks multi beams, or give Glemmy and Quess a new version of the Queen Mansa( Granted the a aziru is awesome, and Unicorn does address the equiment issue, but that was written later.)

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Re: Gelgoog Successors?

Post by MythSearcher » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:05 am

Mafty wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:24 am
It is sort of strange that Zeon seems to ignore some of their more powerful units(at least outside of sidestories). The Gelgoog was actually the most powerful of Zeon's mast produced MS.
I see 2 possible reasons for this.
1) The Gelgoog was introduced late in the war and the design data might not have been successfully transferred to Axis.
This might not be true, but plausible. Given that the Ground and Marine versions had much lower spec, the final production data of the better quality batches might not be available and thus it will be an expensive but rather inefficient unit.
2) The Zaku is more iconic as an MS and its battle record overall average is better.
This is more likely
Newer isn't always better. IRL, the V1 had more kills than the V2 and is a more efficient weapon in terms of money/resources spent on average eventhough towards the end of WWII the intercepted rate is over 97%.
Zaku had a very good reputation because it was the first MS used, symbolizing the Zeonic victory in the beginning of the war where they shot down numerous ships and other vehicles, took over colonies, etc. The Dom also had really good record on ground combat. Both Zaku and Dom had thousands fielded(8000 and 6000) The Gelgoog on the other hand, had very little battle record, the only main battle it fought was lost(ABQ), only around 200 are fielded by the end and most of the pilots are student soldiers who didn't even finished training or fresh out of military school. Wouldn't be hard to imagine why its records would be poor. Not to mention the high spec models are only the prototype(or S), A, B, C and Jg, the D(Desert), F(Marine) and G(Ground) models which are mass produced had a much lower spec(much closer to the Rick Dom's rather than Gundam's), the beam rifle was so hard to maintain Cima fleet only can scrap most of them to support a single one for use.
Seeing them building Gelgoogs with the newest technology in MSV-R, the appearance of the MS probably isn't important anymore, thus using the more iconic MS for morale and to rally followers, the Zaku as the Zeon model seems to be the more reasonable choice.
Likewise several Neo Zeon MS never seem to get improved upon in the Second Neo Zeon conflict. The Zaku III , Bawoo, Zssa, Doven Wolf , Driessen, and ultimately the Regelgu, are all powerful units or at least heavily armed ones. Yet the Geara Doga is rather limited in both size and armament compared to these. It's also strange the second movement never tries to add the Geymalks multi beams, or give Glemmy and Quess a new version of the Queen Mansa( Granted the a aziru is awesome, and Unicorn does address the equiment issue, but that was written later.)
Because the first and second NZ has no direct relations whatsoever.
They are both called Neo Zeon because they are both related to Zeon, but between them they had nothing directly linking the two.
Haman had the asteroid Axis to support her for research and development, while Char had to hide and do everything in secret. Both the quality and quantatity of their strengths are vastly different. Axis Zeon was more like a nation not yet discovered while Char's Neo Zeon was more like a terrorist group in hiding.
Most of the R&D of Char's NZ are out sourced to AE, because they failed to miniaturize the Psycommu system on the Geara Doga Psycommu prototype, and the Geara Doga is also manufactured by AE. Char's NZ only did R&D for the larger MAs, likely because hiding a handful of large MAs are easier than hiding a few hundred MSs. (You can always just use a ship to tug the MA away in space to avoid inspection while it will be chaotic if you do it with many MS.)
Also, having just one mass production MS makes much more sense for your logistics, if you have an ongoing war than development and upgrading is a must, but Char's plan isn't something that will last long, he wanted to drop Axis to Earth, and he started with one mass production MS and a few specialized MS and MA for that specific purpose, a very efficient and relatively more realistic(comparatively) depiction of what military should be.

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Re: Gelgoog Successors?

Post by Scorpio13 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:30 am

I definitely agree that the Gaza is a spiritual successor to the gelgoog. RE-GElgu felt...lazy? In terms of desgin. Instead of missles, why not funnels?

Also the gablady beta just looks unappealing, but thats just me. The reason i feel the bawoo is somewhat a Successor mainly it resembles the gelgoog I guess? The shield gives me the vibes.

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Re: Gelgoog Successors?

Post by Seto Kaiba » Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:34 am

Scorpio13 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:30 am
I definitely agree that the Gaza is a spiritual successor to the gelgoog. RE-GElgu felt...lazy?
The ReGelgu isn't a successor to the Gelgoog... it IS a Gelgoog.

To be precise, the ReGelgu is a new variant of the MS-14 Gelgoog that was produced at Axis after the One Year War's conclusion. Its model number is still MS-14, it just has a different series letter to indicate that it's another variant of the basic MS-14 design. The name "ReGelgu" is an abbreviation of "Refined Gelgoog". It is the MS-14J Refined Gelgoog. Many of the surviving Gelgoogs that reached Axis after the war were upgraded to the J-type prior to the introduction of the Gaza series as their replacement.


Scorpio13 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:30 am
In terms of desgin. Instead of missles, why not funnels?
Because the MS-14J Refined Gelgoog was a general-use Mobile Suit design, intended for use by regular soldiers.

Funnels are Newtype-use hardware that can't be operated without a psycommu.


Scorpio13 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:30 am
Also the gablady beta just looks unappealing, but thats just me. The reason i feel the bawoo is somewhat a Successor mainly it resembles the gelgoog I guess? The shield gives me the vibes.
Being a successor has nothing to do with looks... the exterior design of a mobile suit's armor is largely cosmetic.

The Bawoo is a derivative of the Zeta Project, with no real connection at all to the Gelgoog.
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Re: Gelgoog Successors?

Post by MythSearcher » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:17 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:34 am
Being a successor has nothing to do with looks... the exterior design of a mobile suit's armor is largely cosmetic.

The Bawoo is a derivative of the Zeta Project, with no real connection at all to the Gelgoog.
If we consider internal design, I guess there are no real successor to most of the Zeon MS though, because none of the later MS uses the Fluid Pulse system but all switched to field motors(mainly due to incompatibility to the movable frame) the internal designs will have to be seriously altered and unless they are doing something like the fake Gelgoogs in MSV-R, they really don't have to first design the outer armour before designing the interior that fits inside.
Removing one the the most prominent features of the Zeon MS, and the monoeye system isn't really Zeonic anymore especially because of the Titans overuse of it and the joke of Qubeley having two mone eyes, ahem, arent that dual eyes then?(The Gaza series including Ga-Zomm also didn't have the regular railed version of it) Can anything be a true successor?

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Re: Gelgoog Successors?

Post by JEFFPIATT » Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:07 pm

the MS-14J ReGelgu is as mentioned the last Zeon Refit of the original MS-14 done by the Axis Zeon to keep there gelgoogs current for training letting them keep up with newer ms.

the MS-17 Galbaldy α line was the official secession from the MS-14 merging the Gyan tech with the Gelgoog tech. the EFSF Luna II factory produced the unit specked as the RMS-117 Galbaldy β Axis built two as the AMX-117 L and R models.
RX-098 Prototype Rick Dias is derived from the RMS-117.

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Re: Gelgoog Successors?

Post by yazi88 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:15 pm

Its hilarious that almost all of these Post OYW Gelgoogs are still slower than then Jaeger, but then again, Jaeger is faster than just about every MS outside of the GP01 FB until F90 era, lol.

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Re: Gelgoog Successors?

Post by Cardi Doorl » Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:12 pm

A lot of the on-paper stats are kinda junk in terms of making any sense, tbh. That goes especially for mecha in the interstitial OVAs like 0080 and 0083, where they made up stats in relation to other units within the same series, but didn't even try to make them fit in with performance numbers of pre-existing stories set before and after.
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Re: Gelgoog Successors?

Post by yazi88 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:16 pm

0083 seemed to fit just fine. The Gelgoog Marine just stands out for easily being the worst Gelgoog production model. It was likely just cheap to make and maintain compared to other Gelgoog models.

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Re: Gelgoog Successors?

Post by MythSearcher » Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:23 pm

yazi88 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:15 pm
Its hilarious that almost all of these Post OYW Gelgoogs are still slower than then Jaeger, but then again, Jaeger is faster than just about every MS outside of the GP01 FB until F90 era, lol.
You get the Dra-C line, a pretty grunt unit with an acceleration of 2.40, the 2.35 Dra-C custom, 2.42 Dra-C custom heavy equipment(same link).
I'm skipping the mess of AOZ.
Then you have the 7.27 Ex-S and 9.72 S[Bst] 6.8 Deep Striker(reduction from Bst by 30%) and highly possibly Z+ C1[Bst](Straping 4 of the boosters on a lighter Z+ should get you at least a similar acceleration as S[Bst])
Likely at least slightly earlier than the F90, the 2.27 Jegan Normal type and vairants 3.00 A and 2.42 B type and the UC0105 mass production model 3.50 Heavygun(15 years before F90)
Considering mass production MSs are already beating the Jaeger as early as 0083, it is not really faster than just about every MS until F90 era.
Cardi Doorl wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:12 pm
A lot of the on-paper stats are kinda junk in terms of making any sense, tbh. That goes especially for mecha in the interstitial OVAs like 0080 and 0083, where they made up stats in relation to other units within the same series, but didn't even try to make them fit in with performance numbers of pre-existing stories set before and after.
A lot might, but this actually makes more sense than you think.
The 0080 Zeon units are interceptor types, they sacrificed operation time for the much higher thrust, which is not unlike interceptor aircrafts built for short range defensive encounters. When you are defending, you are closer to base and thus easier to resupply, having higher spec is desireably so you are more likely to win against the enemies longer range but lower spec units, and this is very important especially when you are on the defense.
The 0083 units other than the GP series are mostly reasonable and fit well into the series, the GP series are there to be killed off in-universe and the thrusts are mostly short bursts instead of long continuous thrust like later models(Zeta period MS/TMS are designed for long range and extended operation times because Titans is more of a military police and AEUG is poor), so it still makes sense to a certain degree, and actually fits pretty well into the whole story if you actually look into the details.
Considering 0083 to be the spiritual successor to Sentinel, the 0083 specs are already much more reasonable and sensable than Sentinel's Ex-S and S[Bst], which the two have the highest thrust to mass until V2 Gundam doubling the handle in all MS and MA with specs you can calculate, oh, and how funny, all 3 of these are designed by the same person as the GP03 designer, Katoki Hajime, who claimed "It is not fun when it is too powerful, and he designed the most powerful MSs in their respective eras that still outperform many in the next.) but considering the rationale they gave in-universe and the overly bulky equipment to get to that spec, and also it is more of a satire to ZZ's over equiping MSs, I'd say they still are within the making sense category.

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