GM Sniper Custom Family Tree

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GM Sniper Custom Family Tree

Post by Underrated GM Custom » Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:19 pm

Good morning everyone,

I have been trying to figure out where the GM Sniper Custom is descended from. I recall from reading a GM Sniper II thread a long while ago that the Sniper Custom and GM II were developed in parallel rather than sequentially (which I suppose is required considering how many GM Variants were rolled out in a very small period of time).

I know that the GM Sniper is essentially a modified GM Ground type. I'm fairly certain that the Sniper Custom is not a custom version of the GM Sniper, but instead a Custom version of a GM modified to be a sniper. My question is, is the GM Sniper Custom a custom version of a standard GM or a custom version of a GM Ground Type? My hunch is that it is not from the Ground Type since the very old box art featured it in space in front of a federation warship, but I was hoping someone could shed some light on this.

If you have the time I do have a related question, what is the current sources say for the rollout dates on the GM Sniper, GM Sniper Custom and GM Sniper II? Thank you!

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Re: GM Sniper Custom Family Tree

Post by MythSearcher » Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:54 am

Underrated GM Custom wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:19 pm
Good morning everyone,

I have been trying to figure out where the GM Sniper Custom is descended from. I recall from reading a GM Sniper II thread a long while ago that the Sniper Custom and GM II were developed in parallel rather than sequentially (which I suppose is required considering how many GM Variants were rolled out in a very small period of time).

I know that the GM Sniper is essentially a modified GM Ground type. I'm fairly certain that the Sniper Custom is not a custom version of the GM Sniper, but instead a Custom version of a GM modified to be a sniper. My question is, is the GM Sniper Custom a custom version of a standard GM or a custom version of a GM Ground Type? My hunch is that it is not from the Ground Type since the very old box art featured it in space in front of a federation warship, but I was hoping someone could shed some light on this.

If you have the time I do have a related question, what is the current sources say for the rollout dates on the GM Sniper, GM Sniper Custom and GM Sniper II? Thank you!
Answering this from work with no source material, but likely won't be too far off.

When the GM Sniper Custom was designed IRL in 1983, there is no such thing as GM Ground type. The first GM that is labelled as GM Ground type, the RGM-79F, appeared in the 1990 M-MSV, had no relationship with the 1996 08th MS team RGM-79[G] Ground type.

The 79SC is a high spec model based on the Early model GMs, it is an overall improvement to the GM in reply of the request of frontline veteran pilots, and a mid range beam rifle is designed for mid range sniping. It has spec comparable to RX-78.

The 79SP is a high spec model based on the Late type models starting from 79D Cold Climate type, specifically the GM command type. It features a new high precision sensors(laser and optical sensors) and high magnification camera for super long range sniping, which can let it snipe enemy warships and commander unit from non-combat zones. It's catalogue spec exceeds that of the RX-78 Gundam. With very complex parts and designs, it is only produced in small numbers but its design influenced a lot of later models like the Nemo and Jegan.

They are developed in parallel, and the SP is supposedly deployed a bit earlier and happens to be able to participate in the defense of Jaburo in 30 Nov, 0079 (This is very certain and is sourced from the MS Era book) So we can be pretty certain that the SP deployed in at least late Nov 0079 and the SC, while also has a deployment date as Nov, 0079. The MSV collection file published in 1999 said the SP development started after the EFF is satisfied with the SC, but having less than a month to do so, they likely "ordered" the SP in Nov instead of starting the development, with the development started at the same time.

A fun fact here is that while the Early models are mostly developed in Jaburo (aka Jaburo GMs by some fans) sans 79[E], the SC is developed in Lunar II. (Where most of the late models are developed in, aka Lunar II GMs by some fans) IRL, most of the early models are designed by Kunio Okawara, while the late models are designed by other designers started by 0080's Yutaka Izubuchi.

The GM Sniper in 08th MS team is basically just a normal 79[G] coloured differently. It is not modified on the hardware level, but with a OS update for the use of the sniper rifle. It can use the 79SP sniper rifle because they have interchangeable weapons. (The coolant tank is there for longer operation time, not extra power)

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Re: GM Sniper Custom Family Tree

Post by Underrated GM Custom » Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:23 pm

Very interesting! I'm familiar with the first Ground Type from MSV, as I recall it used a railgun like weapon similar to the Desert GM but I didn't know the GM Sniper Custom predated the Ground GM completely.

I'm also surpsied that the GM Sniper which is a modified Ground Type doesn't require additional power and the backpack is only for cooling. I recall that the RX78-1 and several of the early GMs lacked the reactor output to power a beam rifle thus we ended up with the RX78-2 with additional power generation, and the mass produced GMs who used beam spray guns. Although I believe there may have been a retcon in the past to say GMs could use beam rifles, they just didn't due to cost reasons to justify the GMs in Jaburo being featured with rifles in the animation. That said I'm quite surprised since I never would have pegged the Ground GMs to have a strong enough reactor for a standard beam rifle.

Aside from higher specs is there another discernable reason as to why the Federation would pursue the GM Sniper II rather than just the GM Sniper? My hunch is that the GM Sniper Custom's beam rifle isn't that much longer range than the Gundam or the Guncannons whereas the GM Sniper II with the magnified optics and ability to use a hard shell sniper or a beam sniper allows to actually be a long range sniper. But if there's anything else that greatly separates them I'm very interested to hear.

Thank you for the post, it was very detailed without looking up source material!

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Re: GM Sniper Custom Family Tree

Post by yazi88 » Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:12 pm

In real life, the GM Sniper Custom came out as it was one of the earliest MSV units.

However, due to retcons and updates, the Ground GM is one of the earliest GM models when 8th MS team came out.

As for the GM Sniper II, it was a more general purpose machine with much higher specs compared to the older Gm Sniper custom. The Sniper Custom was already a good unit, but the Sniper II could function in any other role too, just better in every way.

The Sniper Custom's Sniper Beam rifle is just as strong as the Gundam and Guncannon's rifle, I believe it has longer range too compared to the Gundam's rifle.

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Re: GM Sniper Custom Family Tree

Post by MythSearcher » Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:37 pm

Underrated GM Custom wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:23 pm
Very interesting! I'm familiar with the first Ground Type from MSV, as I recall it used a railgun like weapon similar to the Desert GM but I didn't know the GM Sniper Custom predated the Ground GM completely.

I'm also surpsied that the GM Sniper which is a modified Ground Type doesn't require additional power and the backpack is only for cooling. I recall that the RX78-1 and several of the early GMs lacked the reactor output to power a beam rifle thus we ended up with the RX78-2 with additional power generation, and the mass produced GMs who used beam spray guns. Although I believe there may have been a retcon in the past to say GMs could use beam rifles, they just didn't due to cost reasons to justify the GMs in Jaburo being featured with rifles in the animation. That said I'm quite surprised since I never would have pegged the Ground GMs to have a strong enough reactor for a standard beam rifle.

Aside from higher specs is there another discernable reason as to why the Federation would pursue the GM Sniper II rather than just the GM Sniper? My hunch is that the GM Sniper Custom's beam rifle isn't that much longer range than the Gundam or the Guncannons whereas the GM Sniper II with the magnified optics and ability to use a hard shell sniper or a beam sniper allows to actually be a long range sniper. But if there's anything else that greatly separates them I'm very interested to hear.

Thank you for the post, it was very detailed without looking up source material!
The current view seems to be the generator power really didn't matter that much in using a beam weapon. The Zeon side is different because MS-06 and 09s didn't have the power connector in their hands to use the beam weapons. The EFF side has compatibility to all of their weapons, and the lack of power usually only means it takes longer to charge up for that initial triggering energy.(since they are e-cap powered, most of the beam energy comes from the e-cap instead of the MS generator) as long as they are not decades apart.(In which case, the standard might have changed, the triggering power required may be higher than the capacitor so no matter how long you charge you cannot store that much energy.

The long range beam rifle of SP (or the one used by the ground type sniper) is the crown king of all OYW beam rifles, likely very expensive and impractical. With Minovsky particles scattered all over the place, beyond visual range sniping can be done but not practical. You have to set up mid point observers to see if you hit or miss, with such time delay, sniping any mobile target is unlikely to hit. (So sniping ships might be done but sniping MS ans MA are pretty much out of the question) Encyclopeadia Ver.1.5 mentioned the error of the SP shooting at a 1000km range is just a few cm, but since you can hardly see 1000km(notice the SP has a sensor range of 8.7km) and at anything over 20km, ships can already take over the shooting, they are less accurate but when you are shooting another ship with the shortest width at a few dozen of metres, who needs that kind of accuracy?
The SP is a very powerful unit, but the ability to do so is an over-spec if you ask me.
yazi88 wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:12 pm
In real life, the GM Sniper Custom came out as it was one of the earliest MSV units.

However, due to retcons and updates, the Ground GM is one of the earliest GM models when 8th MS team came out.

As for the GM Sniper II, it was a more general purpose machine with much higher specs compared to the older Gm Sniper custom. The Sniper Custom was already a good unit, but the Sniper II could function in any other role too, just better in every way.

The Sniper Custom's Sniper Beam rifle is just as strong as the Gundam and Guncannon's rifle, I believe it has longer range too compared to the Gundam's rifle.
Both 79SC and 79SP have upgraded all specs, they can use to snipe but you can tell that they are not just designed for sniping. They are both high end models for ace, the 79SP is likely better with the better based unit design and more budget spent on long range detection.

The SC rifle(BR-M79L-3 or R-4) is a mid range sniping weapon, nothing about range is mentioned but since it has a longer barrel with a better focus compared to the regular beam rifle, it can shoot further, or at least more accurate than the regular beam rifle.

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Re: GM Sniper Custom Family Tree

Post by Seto Kaiba » Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:32 am

Underrated GM Custom wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:19 pm
Good morning everyone,

I have been trying to figure out where the GM Sniper Custom is descended from. I recall from reading a GM Sniper II thread a long while ago that the Sniper Custom and GM II were developed in parallel rather than sequentially (which I suppose is required considering how many GM Variants were rolled out in a very small period of time).
Master Archive Mobile Suit: RGM-79 GM has the RGM-79SC GM Sniper Custom as a derivative of the initial type RGM-79 GM, the RGM-79[G] GM Sniper as a field modification of the RGM-79[G] GM Ground Type, and the RGM-79SP GM Sniper II as a derivative of the RGM-79G/GS GM Command.


Underrated GM Custom wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:19 pm
If you have the time I do have a related question, what is the current sources say for the rollout dates on the GM Sniper, GM Sniper Custom and GM Sniper II? Thank you!
Master Archive asserts that the Sniper Custom and Sniper II were developed in parallel and the first prototypes of the RGM-79SC and RGM-79SP came off their respective lines in early November, UC 0079.

It also asserts that both the SC and SP types had spotty and inconsistent performance, as a result of being rushed into production without proper testing.
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Re: GM Sniper Custom Family Tree

Post by Seto Kaiba » Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:11 am

Underrated GM Custom wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:23 pm
Aside from higher specs is there another discernable reason as to why the Federation would pursue the GM Sniper II rather than just the GM Sniper?
Discontinuation of the initial-type RGM-79 GM it was based on, in favor of later models with improved hardware.


Underrated GM Custom wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:23 pm
My hunch is that the GM Sniper Custom's beam rifle isn't that much longer range than the Gundam or the Guncannons whereas the GM Sniper II with the magnified optics and ability to use a hard shell sniper or a beam sniper allows to actually be a long range sniper. But if there's anything else that greatly separates them I'm very interested to hear.
By in large, they use the same beam sniper rifles... the BR-M79L-3 and BR-S-85-L3. The GM Sniper II can also use the XBR-X-79YK, but that requires either a long downtime between shots to recharge the e-cap or an external generator to bypass the e-cap.

Among upgrades noted is the RGM-79SP GM Sniper II had modifications made to its cooling system to prevent the hot air exhausted by its cooling system vents from negatively impacting the accuracy of its long-range sighting sensors or fire control system. Essentially, it has active grille shutters on its exhaust vents that attempt to direct hot air down and away from the head and seal the vents off during aiming and firing in a bid to prevent the heat haze caused by the hot exhaust from disrupting sensor focus and aim. It's noted that it was not particularly effective at what it was intended to do, and is suspected of being one of the reasons the GM Sniper II had issues with overheating and output instability. Other measures taken as upgrades include a redesign of the head to suppress electrical and mechanical disruptions that might affect aim.

The GM Sniper II is also noted to have had better sensors than the GM Sniper Custom, allowing it to shoot with greater precision over longer ranges... but the price tag was apparently high enough to give the EFF pause for thought before deciding to construct a very limited production lot.
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Re: GM Sniper Custom Family Tree

Post by False Prophet » Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:26 am

All this talk about the GM Sniper II and GM Sniper Custom makes me remember another argument I have a long time ago about which one is more versatile. The GM Sniper Custom has a lot of hardpoints to carry things, right, so I presume that it is more versatile? But then again for its role as a mid-to-long range support unit that presumably works with other units, does it really needs to carry a lot of weapon at once? The most important weapons are also usuable on the GM Sniper II anyway.

Maybe it is that the GM Sniper II is meant to work with other units in a sqad AKA designated marksman, while the GM Sniper Custom is for the lone wolf pilots? The fact that the GM Sniper Custom were all assigned to EFF aces does support the fact.

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Re: GM Sniper Custom Family Tree

Post by Underrated GM Custom » Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:41 am

MythSearcher wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:37 pm
The current view seems to be the generator power really didn't matter that much in using a beam weapon. The Zeon side is different because MS-06 and 09s didn't have the power connector in their hands to use the beam weapons. The EFF side has compatibility to all of their weapons, and the lack of power usually only means it takes longer to charge up for that initial triggering energy.(since they are e-cap powered, most of the beam energy comes from the e-cap instead of the MS generator) as long as they are not decades apart.(In which case, the standard might have changed, the triggering power required may be higher than the capacitor so no matter how long you charge you cannot store that much energy.

The long range beam rifle of SP (or the one used by the ground type sniper) is the crown king of all OYW beam rifles, likely very expensive and impractical. With Minovsky particles scattered all over the place, beyond visual range sniping can be done but not practical. You have to set up mid point observers to see if you hit or miss, with such time delay, sniping any mobile target is unlikely to hit. (So sniping ships might be done but sniping MS ans MA are pretty much out of the question) Encyclopeadia Ver.1.5 mentioned the error of the SP shooting at a 1000km range is just a few cm, but since you can hardly see 1000km(notice the SP has a sensor range of 8.7km) and at anything over 20km, ships can already take over the shooting, they are less accurate but when you are shooting another ship with the shortest width at a few dozen of metres, who needs that kind of accuracy?
The SP is a very powerful unit, but the ability to do so is an over-spec if you ask me.
Fascinating! I thought it was an important plot and design point that the RX78-1 lacked the reactor to be able to power the beam rifle thus the RX78-2 had those small yellow squares added for increased power generation making it the first MS that could use a beam rifle. What changed to make the current view that there is no longer a minimum reactor power required for certain weaponry?

BREAK.

I agree with you, that does seem like quite the over-spec on the SP. Since it's unlikely to have any value hitting MS, MA and battleships are already large as it is. Here's a thought, perhaps they focus on accuracy over long distances has nothing to do with hitting a MS, perhaps its entirely an auxiliary function meant to hit non-moving targets over long distances before Minovsky particles have been spread. Perhaps key infrastructure or enemy command HQ locations.

Aside from 0080 where we see the GM Sniper II use the bullpup, are there any representations in print for the GM Sniper II using the solid shell firing rifle? I read a bit of Rise from the Ashes a while ago but from what I recall that features the White Dingo using a Beam sniper rifle.

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Re: GM Sniper Custom Family Tree

Post by Seto Kaiba » Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:35 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:26 am
All this talk about the GM Sniper II and GM Sniper Custom makes me remember another argument I have a long time ago about which one is more versatile. The GM Sniper Custom has a lot of hardpoints to carry things, right, so I presume that it is more versatile?
They're both highly specialized units... as far as I can tell, they have essentially the same set of hardpoints that're carryover from the base model GMs they were built on. I don't think one is necessarily any more versatile than the other.


Underrated GM Custom wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:41 am
Fascinating! I thought it was an important plot and design point that the RX78-1 lacked the reactor to be able to power the beam rifle thus the RX78-2 had those small yellow squares added for increased power generation making it the first MS that could use a beam rifle. What changed to make the current view that there is no longer a minimum reactor power required for certain weaponry?
So... I did some looking into this, and I think you may be conflating two different specifications... as described in the Master Archive book for the RX-78 series:
  • RX-78-1 "Rollout Type": an all-white Gundam with no V-fin, no helium cooling system on the waist, and a lower reactor/generator output more in line with the RGM-79's. It had issues operating the prototype beam rifle due to the energy requirement to catalyze the prototype e-cap being 30% higher than expected, leading to development of the less powerful beam spray gun.
  • RX-78-1 Prototype Gundam: the black and white Gundam Kunio Okawara did for MSV, which is almost identical to the RX-78-2.

Underrated GM Custom wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:41 am
I agree with you, that does seem like quite the over-spec on the SP. Since it's unlikely to have any value hitting MS, MA and battleships are already large as it is. Here's a thought, perhaps they focus on accuracy over long distances has nothing to do with hitting a MS, perhaps its entirely an auxiliary function meant to hit non-moving targets over long distances before Minovsky particles have been spread. Perhaps key infrastructure or enemy command HQ locations.
The print material suggests that they're actually terrifyingly good at hitting Mobile Suits at long ranges. The RGM-79SC's accuracy at long range was said to be so good it could hit moving Zakus directly in the monoeye. They're described as being used for air defense and support roles, picking off enemies at long range before they have a chance to fire back.


Underrated GM Custom wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:41 am
Aside from 0080 where we see the GM Sniper II use the bullpup, are there any representations in print for the GM Sniper II using the solid shell firing rifle? I read a bit of Rise from the Ashes a while ago but from what I recall that features the White Dingo using a Beam sniper rifle.
Master Archive Mobile Suit: RGM-79 GM talks about the first operational deployment of the 90mm hard round sniper rifle during Operation Star One, but it's not narrative it's simply a discussion of its performance. It's described as having tested out at over 95% accurate at ranges of over 7km during that battle.

Lydo Wolf is one of the users of the 75mm recoilless rifle, IIRC his main appearances are in Gundam Legacy.
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Re: GM Sniper Custom Family Tree

Post by MythSearcher » Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:52 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:35 pm
They're both highly specialized units... as far as I can tell, they have essentially the same set of hardpoints that're carryover from the base model GMs they were built on. I don't think one is necessarily any more versatile than the other.
The SP and SC is pretty much in effect just applying the same set of upgrades to 79A and 79B.

Underrated GM Custom wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:41 am
I agree with you, that does seem like quite the over-spec on the SP. Since it's unlikely to have any value hitting MS, MA and battleships are already large as it is. Here's a thought, perhaps they focus on accuracy over long distances has nothing to do with hitting a MS, perhaps its entirely an auxiliary function meant to hit non-moving targets over long distances before Minovsky particles have been spread. Perhaps key infrastructure or enemy command HQ locations.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:35 pm
The print material suggests that they're actually terrifyingly good at hitting Mobile Suits at long ranges. The RGM-79SC's accuracy at long range was said to be so good it could hit moving Zakus directly in the monoeye. They're described as being used for air defense and support roles, picking off enemies at long range before they have a chance to fire back.
The question here is how long range.
The 1000km listed in the SP description seems to be pretty far off, to put this into comparison, the F90II L-Type's Long dual use rifle has a range of 400km as a beam rifle with a 5m extension I-Field barrel specifically for extreme range sniping.
Granted, the FAZZ's Hi-Mega Launcher can maintain its power in a range of few ten thousand km, but that is more like striping the canon off a Salamis(actually, it is larger than the cannon of the regular Salamis class if you have them in scale side by side...) but that is still 8 years later in the timeline and Minovsky technology is evolving really fast in the period because it is very new.

In normal MS combat range or maybe 10 times that range(Say, 10km to 100km), I can kinda see why the SC and SP are very accurate to the point as to land hit after hit on the monoeye, and picking off air targets may require something around the 250km range(some current law enforcement helicoptors has a camera range of 250km), but 1000km seems to be very impractically high spec given the period's rifle spec and detection range.


My personal view is that EFF is still leaning very much on the huge cannon doctrine. Just like in 0083 their rebuilt fleet is still mainly gun ships instead of MS carriers. (Both the Magellan and Salamis Kai(0083) versions doesn't have MS carrying capability and the Birmingham is also one large ship with huge cannons but no MS docks.)
They still don't really grasp the idea of scattering Minovsky particles and keep thinking of making things that work when they are not influencing detection. Of course the SC and SP can be very useful even under the influence of Minovsky particles, but their design spec is so much higher than the commonly required spec and this is what makes them overly expensive.
Of course they can be used as they are. I can even think of actual situations where their extreme sccuracy can be utilized fully. But most of the time when they are deployed as field units, they are carrying that over-spec with them and to some degree affect their performances. e.g. either they have a very long zoom scroll bar which will make it hard to fit into the screen/cockpit or their zoom is very sensitive. (Think of other MS having the same space with a zoom fitted for 0~20km but on the SP the zoom has to cover 0~1000km, or 500X the magnification)

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Re: GM Sniper Custom Family Tree

Post by Seto Kaiba » Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:49 am

MythSearcher wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:52 pm
The question here is how long range.
The 1000km listed in the SP description seems to be pretty far off, to put this into comparison, the F90II L-Type's Long dual use rifle has a range of 400km as a beam rifle with a 5m extension I-Field barrel specifically for extreme range sniping.
Granted, the FAZZ's Hi-Mega Launcher can maintain its power in a range of few ten thousand km, but that is more like striping the canon off a Salamis(actually, it is larger than the cannon of the regular Salamis class if you have them in scale side by side...) but that is still 8 years later in the timeline and Minovsky technology is evolving really fast in the period because it is very new.

In normal MS combat range or maybe 10 times that range(Say, 10km to 100km), I can kinda see why the SC and SP are very accurate to the point as to land hit after hit on the monoeye, and picking off air targets may require something around the 250km range(some current law enforcement helicoptors has a camera range of 250km), but 1000km seems to be very impractically high spec given the period's rifle spec and detection range.
Based on the available data on effective ranges that I have for the more traditional solid ammo weapons from the One Year War era, "long range" seems to start at around 7km... which is a good 2km past the average mobile suit-carried machine gun's maximum range.

I suspect you may have misread the SP's specs, since the rangers there are given in meters not kilometers... it has a sensor range of 8.7km (or 11.5km for the improved Titans version), not over 1000km.

Admittedly, the ability to detect a target doesn't equate to the ability to shoot at said target either... so even with scope-based enhancements from their weapons they're still operating with a much more limited range than that.
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Re: GM Sniper Custom Family Tree

Post by MythSearcher » Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:14 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:49 am

Based on the available data on effective ranges that I have for the more traditional solid ammo weapons from the One Year War era, "long range" seems to start at around 7km... which is a good 2km past the average mobile suit-carried machine gun's maximum range.

I suspect you may have misread the SP's specs, since the rangers there are given in meters not kilometers... it has a sensor range of 8.7km (or 11.5km for the improved Titans version), not over 1000km.

Admittedly, the ability to detect a target doesn't equate to the ability to shoot at said target either... so even with scope-based enhancements from their weapons they're still operating with a much more limited range than that.
I am referring to the SP description in Enc. Ver.1.5, in which it is said to have an error of a few cm in 1000km.
Thus I refer to it as an over spec and Underrated GM Custom was replying to this up there when mentioning long range sniping.

As the SP has a sensor range of 8.7km, the rifles(both the long beam rifle and the solid round sniper) obviously do not have the technology to shoot at a 1000km distance. The ability of aiming at a target and shooting with an error of a few cm in that distance isn't useful. I'd say even a few cm in 100km is still an over spec. What the SP needed is something like a few cm in 10km.

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Re: GM Sniper Custom Family Tree

Post by Seto Kaiba » Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:37 am

MythSearcher wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:14 am
I am referring to the SP description in Enc. Ver.1.5, in which it is said to have an error of a few cm in 1000km.
Thus I refer to it as an over spec and Underrated GM Custom was replying to this up there when mentioning long range sniping.
Ah, that remark never made it into the Master Archive writeup. Are you sure that isn't a typo? Is it corroborated in any other source? My inclination would be to suspect someone fat-fingered the keyboard and didn't notice there was an extra zero or two there.


MythSearcher wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:14 am
As the SP has a sensor range of 8.7km, the rifles(both the long beam rifle and the solid round sniper) obviously do not have the technology to shoot at a 1000km distance. The ability of aiming at a target and shooting with an error of a few cm in that distance isn't useful. I'd say even a few cm in 100km is still an over spec. What the SP needed is something like a few cm in 10km.
Yeah, the maximum effective range of almost every weapon available to the GM series and early model Gundams tops out around 20km... and no MS of that era has the sensor range to actually usefully aim at targets that far away.
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Re: GM Sniper Custom Family Tree

Post by False Prophet » Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:40 am

Had it ever been discussed in any material on the topic of Minovsky saturation in ground combat? The primary source of Minovsky particles in space are spaceships deliberately spreading them, right? You don't have that on the ground, or rather during OYW there was not a mobile suit with a generator powerful enough to saturate the air with Minovsky particles (the Dabude-class and Gallop-class might). So is it possible that a lot of RADAR-based and heat-based sensory systems still work on the ground, thus extending the GM Sniper's lethal range with its rifles? You might even use self-guided missiles at that point.

On a related note, why did the Federation had the Big Tray-class before the war? Or rather, why did the concept of land battleship existed in UC in the first place? The Federation never expected Zeon to land on Earth before Loum, right? Which enemy are these land battleships are meant to fight? And people has known since WWII that superheavy tanks and land battleships are dumb ideas.

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Re: GM Sniper Custom Family Tree

Post by MythSearcher » Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:08 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:37 am
Ah, that remark never made it into the Master Archive writeup. Are you sure that isn't a typo? Is it corroborated in any other source? My inclination would be to suspect someone fat-fingered the keyboard and didn't notice there was an extra zero or two there.
Gundam Officials had the same number, and a bit more detailed stating it is a spec that can be performed with the long beam rifle. I guess the rifle in certain limited circumstances can do that, but both are pretty over spec in the OYW period and unlikely situations. The fun thing is, this isn't the only MS having similar ultra range capability in OYW. While Gundam Officials also have this spec of 1000km with an error of a few cm and is better than the MS-14jg, it seems to be implying the 14Jg has similar capability around that range.
MS Encyclopedia UC Box by Enterbrain also mentions both of the 79SP and 14Jg has ultra long range sniping capabilities, though it didn't mention the actual range.

So I'd say they are over spec and impractical, but still maintain they can do so.
False Prophet wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:40 am
Had it ever been discussed in any material on the topic of Minovsky saturation in ground combat? The primary source of Minovsky particles in space are spaceships deliberately spreading them, right? You don't have that on the ground, or rather during OYW there was not a mobile suit with a generator powerful enough to saturate the air with Minovsky particles (the Dabude-class and Gallop-class might). So is it possible that a lot of RADAR-based and heat-based sensory systems still work on the ground, thus extending the GM Sniper's lethal range with its rifles? You might even use self-guided missiles at that point.
You simply can't see that far on the ground because the ground is curved. (I hope you are not a flat-earther and I am offending you with that statement. And yes, I have NO intention of offending flat-earthers reading this, if any. *Sacarsm)
At 2m height, with very clear atmospheric conditions, you can see the ground about 7km away.
At about 18m height, you can see about 15km.
At 100km from the ground(say, when you are entering the atmosphere), you can see about 36km.
At 18m height looking at a target at 100km height, the distance is about 15+36km, so around 51km before the ground blocks your view.
As you can see, even if you are on a SFS unit that can somehow fly up to the edge of the atmosphere(an environment very hostile to sniping) and aiming at a target at the same height, you can still only see a maximum of 72km away.

1000km is VERY far away, especially when you are talking about in the atmosphere.
Not to mention a slight gust around the MS can likely change the course of the beam by more than a few cm in less than 100km, so I really doubt they can be used for intercepting things in space. (This is why we try to put telescopes in space and hey, if the atmospheric wind poses no influence, the 08th MS team scene would make no sense, they will never need the GM Sniper so close to the enemy, all they need to do is have a Sniper II in about 100km away waiting to snipe the Zanzibar down when it reached higher altitude.)



Edit 2020/7/15
There happens to be a tweet about the range of the V Project RX series recently, and someone made a map relating to the distance which is very intuitive of how insane is 1000km on the ground means:
https://twitter.com/hibiki5618/status/1 ... 0076911616
RX-75's range of 260km is also quite obsurd though, but that is artillery support firing, and isn't precision firing, which can have an error tolerance calculated in metres, not cm.
Discalimer, I have not checked the validity of the claim on the first post, I do recall similar ranges for the RX-75 and the RX-78 rifle sounds reasonable at 8km. I do not remember seeing the 30km for the RX-77 beam rifle.
BTW, this is a 260km radius circle on a Japanese map.
https://twitter.com/typeG_18/status/1282972039586832386

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Re: GM Sniper Custom Family Tree

Post by Deathzealot » Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:55 am

False Prophet wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:40 am
Had it ever been discussed in any material on the topic of Minovsky saturation in ground combat? The primary source of Minovsky particles in space are spaceships deliberately spreading them, right? You don't have that on the ground, or rather during OYW there was not a mobile suit with a generator powerful enough to saturate the air with Minovsky particles (the Dabude-class and Gallop-class might).
There is actually a couple scenes in Zeta which has the Garuda Class Carrier Planes able to saturate everywhere they go with Minovsky Particles and since the Garuda Class are based on the Gaw I can see it doing it as well. I remember a scene in Zeta where is mentioned that Rosamia Badan and the squadron she was leading entered the minovsky particle cloud coming from the Audhumla.
False Prophet wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:40 am
On a related note, why did the Federation had the Big Tray-class before the war? Or rather, why did the concept of land battleship existed in UC in the first place? The Federation never expected Zeon to land on Earth before Loum, right? Which enemy are these land battleships are meant to fight? And people has known since WWII that superheavy tanks and land battleships are dumb ideas.
From what I understand the Big Trays were mainly for mobile command centres, and heavy artillery units. Basically, they were mobile firebases that moved around to where they are needed. They were not meant to be battleships at all really. Also, they are not really landships as we know them since they are also able to move on the water as well as land. There is a scene from Gihren's Greed games (I think?) that shows several Big Trays crossing the British Channel and into Europe.

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