Zeta Plus - atmospheric flight

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Grey Ghost
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Zeta Plus - atmospheric flight

Post by Grey Ghost » Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:03 pm

Hey all - got a question I can't seem to track down any info on. The Zeta Plus A1 was built to operate entirely in atmosphere - all space and re-entry equipment is gone - and its waverider form is said to be efficient for long flights. So far so good. But the wing binders are also said to be useful for AMBAC maneuvering in mobile suit mode. Is AMBAC even a thing under gravity? Is the A1 somehow capable of true flight in mobile suit mode, or is it still limited to rocket-assisted jumps?

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MythSearcher
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Re: Zeta Plus - atmospheric flight

Post by MythSearcher » Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:22 am

Grey Ghost wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:03 pm
Hey all - got a question I can't seem to track down any info on. The Zeta Plus A1 was built to operate entirely in atmosphere - all space and re-entry equipment is gone - and its waverider form is said to be efficient for long flights. So far so good. But the wing binders are also said to be useful for AMBAC maneuvering in mobile suit mode. Is AMBAC even a thing under gravity? Is the A1 somehow capable of true flight in mobile suit mode, or is it still limited to rocket-assisted jumps?
At least the Sentinel production team thinks that AMBAC is useful for atmospheric flight.
Sample is FF-08WR and a bunch of variants: https://gundam.fandom.com/wiki/FF-08-GB/WR_Wyvern
(see last picture in gallery)

The Z+ A1 has enough thrust for flight in MS mode(and judging from the operational time of the thrusters of C1, you can call it true flight as it can thrust for at least over an hour), it is just not desirable to do so. You get something like 1.48G acceleration, compensating for 1G gravity, you have 0.48 left for manoeuvres in any direction except you have
some downwards acceleration,(you get about 2.48G max in the downward direction) which is very low compared to using the aerodynamic lifting force to turn.

In WR mode, it works more or less like a plane(will be very unstable IRL, so more or less. The more unstable, the easier it is to turn, but more likely to lose control), in MS mode, if you insist to fly in it, it would be more like a helicopter(though also much more unstable and inefficient IRL)

This is very low compared to using the aerodynamic lifting force to turn.

In WR mode, it works more or less like a plane(will be very unstable IRL, so more or less. The more unstable, the easier it is to turn, but more likely to lose control), in MS mode, if you insist to fly in it, it would be more like a helicopter(though also much more unstable and inefficient if IRL)

The AMBAC functions in atmosphere, but of course would also be very different to work with and unless you have a very good computer assist, likely very dangerous.
I guess Katoki understands the risk of such systems and already didn't add any horizontal fins on the tail binder.
Vertical fin helps stablize the yaw while horizontal ones stablize the pitch(mostly, they are also used for controlling the yaw and row respectively, in some designs), a horizontal tail fin the rotates in the pitch direction changes the air flow and if you use it as a AMBAC device without caring about the airflow, you may stall the aircraft.
Of course if you don't use it as an AMBAC device, but a stablizer, it can stablize the aircraft's pitch and prevents it from stalling in some situations.(But since none of them has a horizontal fin on the tail binder, I guess the point is moot)
He also added tons of tail fins to stablize the system in the FF-08WR design, which in turn, might make the craft too stable for a dogfight.
Last edited by MythSearcher on Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Seto Kaiba
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Re: Zeta Plus - atmospheric flight

Post by Seto Kaiba » Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:25 am

Grey Ghost wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:03 pm
[...] But the wing binders are also said to be useful for AMBAC maneuvering in mobile suit mode. Is AMBAC even a thing under gravity? Is the A1 somehow capable of true flight in mobile suit mode, or is it still limited to rocket-assisted jumps?
Wasn't it established back in 0083 that the AMBAC system is also what provides a mobile suit with its ability to keep its balance and maneuver like a person on the ground?
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MythSearcher
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Re: Zeta Plus - atmospheric flight

Post by MythSearcher » Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:06 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:25 am

Wasn't it established back in 0083 that the AMBAC system is also what provides a mobile suit with its ability to keep its balance and maneuver like a person on the ground?
That's probably established in Sentinel's Gundam Wars III.

Idea should be the same, AMBAC is the active balance system, whether it is used for walking on the ground or manoeuvre in space.
AMBAC during flight is a bit more complicated, since the MS really isn't designed for aerodynamics and turning with AMBAC functions during flight sounds really complex(not undoable, but the programming is probably hellish)

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John-Luck Pickerd
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Re: Zeta Plus - atmospheric flight

Post by John-Luck Pickerd » Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:47 pm

ambac is just use the momentum of your limbs and/or binders to change direction no? So AMBAC is just as applicable in the air as in space. If AMBAC is used to balance the machine on the ground as well, then obviously ambac is even more important.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... -superman/

Ofc, the Z+ flailing its binders and limbs during flight would be an undignified sight.

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Seto Kaiba
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Re: Zeta Plus - atmospheric flight

Post by Seto Kaiba » Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:35 pm

MythSearcher wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:06 am
AMBAC during flight is a bit more complicated, since the MS really isn't designed for aerodynamics and turning with AMBAC functions during flight sounds really complex(not undoable, but the programming is probably hellish)
As far as I can find in the (admittedly limited) Japanese sources available to me for the Zeta Plus A1, the closest the MS gets to using AMBAC in flight (waverider mode only) is in using its wing binders as a variable sweep wing like the F-14's (or the VF-1 Valkyrie the Zeta Gundam was inspired by).
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MythSearcher
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Re: Zeta Plus - atmospheric flight

Post by MythSearcher » Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:31 pm

John-Luck Pickerd wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:47 pm
ambac is just use the momentum of your limbs and/or binders to change direction no? So AMBAC is just as applicable in the air as in space.
Yes and No.

You can turn the thing using just AMBAC in space, but doing so in air faces 2 problems:
1) You can turn the plane by lift, like any real life plane, which is more efficient and easier to control(as a plane form)
2) If your air speed is anything trans-sonic or super sonic, your limbs will create drag, shock waves, and the pilot is very unlikely to survive the sudden impact of the decceleration even it the machine survives it.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:35 pm
As far as I can find in the (admittedly limited) Japanese sources available to me for the Zeta Plus A1, the closest the MS gets to using AMBAC in flight (waverider mode only) is in using its wing binders as a variable sweep wing like the F-14's (or the VF-1 Valkyrie the Zeta Gundam was inspired by).
I was just referring to using AMBAC during flight in general and mainly in MS mode, if happening IRL.
Likely it will be kinda like Macross Zero, you have to slow down to a certain "safe" speed to transform.
Luckily, the Z+ A1's thrust to mass ratio likely cannot get it up to really high speed in MS mode.(Unless it is doing a dive, and the pilot is suicidal like most main characters does.)

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Seto Kaiba
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Re: Zeta Plus - atmospheric flight

Post by Seto Kaiba » Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:55 am

MythSearcher wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:31 pm
I was just referring to using AMBAC during flight in general and mainly in MS mode, if happening IRL.
Likely it will be kinda like Macross Zero, you have to slow down to a certain "safe" speed to transform.
Luckily, the Z+ A1's thrust to mass ratio likely cannot get it up to really high speed in MS mode.(Unless it is doing a dive, and the pilot is suicidal like most main characters does.)
Assuming it can even reach transsonic or supersonic speeds under its own power... during reentry is one thing, and level flight is something else entirely.

Granted, the MSZ-006A1 Zeta Plus A1's thrust-to-weight ratio is actually pretty damned impressive by the standards of modern aircraft... it's sitting pretty at a hair over 1.47 loaded for bear. Most modern fighter aircraft can't make that boast. It's not going to be able to make the most of that because its aerodynamic profile is pretty awful by modern aircraft standards. It's going to lose a lot of energy fighting the drag from the precariously positioned body parts of its Mobile Suit mode. Its wing area is also quite low for its size and mass, meaning it's kind of flying more along the lines of a missile than a plane... making up for a lack of lift with red raw thrust. It's also not likely capable of long-duration high-speed flight, since only a few of its engines are the thermonuclear turbines and the rest are a set of rockets with a fairly limited onboard fuel supply. It won't be able to exert its maximum thrust for very long before the tanks run dry.

One remark I did find indicates it can't use AMBAC in waverider, so presumably any usage of AMBAC in in atmosphere would be in Mobile Suit mode.
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MythSearcher
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Re: Zeta Plus - atmospheric flight

Post by MythSearcher » Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:20 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:55 am
Assuming it can even reach transsonic or supersonic speeds under its own power... during reentry is one thing, and level flight is something else entirely.

Granted, the MSZ-006A1 Zeta Plus A1's thrust-to-weight ratio is actually pretty damned impressive by the standards of modern aircraft... it's sitting pretty at a hair over 1.47 loaded for bear. Most modern fighter aircraft can't make that boast. It's not going to be able to make the most of that because its aerodynamic profile is pretty awful by modern aircraft standards. It's going to lose a lot of energy fighting the drag from the precariously positioned body parts of its Mobile Suit mode. Its wing area is also quite low for its size and mass, meaning it's kind of flying more along the lines of a missile than a plane... making up for a lack of lift with red raw thrust. It's also not likely capable of long-duration high-speed flight, since only a few of its engines are the thermonuclear turbines and the rest are a set of rockets with a fairly limited onboard fuel supply. It won't be able to exert its maximum thrust for very long before the tanks run dry.

One remark I did find indicates it can't use AMBAC in waverider, so presumably any usage of AMBAC in in atmosphere would be in Mobile Suit mode.
Well, if it is just subsonic, the drag created by use of AMBAC is likely not lethal.

It doesn't make sense that the Z+ cannot use AMBAC in WR mode if the FF-08WR is created for training for pilots to pilot the Z+?
I guess the tail binder isn't for AMBAC then, but since it does not have horizontal fins, I don't see a particular use for them. Even if they are used for AMBAC, the effects will be minimal(slightly pulling the head up or down?).

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