Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

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Freighttrain
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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Freighttrain » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:31 pm

Well to disregard any conjecture related to scientific advances in the fields of materials science and robotics in regard to the current technological limitations of the square-cube law, to be perfectly honest I see giant humanoid vehicles as most effective in relation to the known and unrealised nuances of urban warfare in particular, if you're interested I could message you personally with some details of what I'm planning to include in my next post to see if there is anything not solid enough regarding that to get by your scrutiny.

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ShadowCell
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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by ShadowCell » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:21 pm

"positing conjectures" is just a fancy way of describing handwaving. like, i can just as easily "conjecture" that precision weapons will get more precise and destructive, meaning mecha will still be slow unwieldy targets.

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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Seto Kaiba » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:09 pm

ShadowCell wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:21 pm
like, i can just as easily "conjecture" that precision weapons will get more precise and destructive, meaning mecha will still be slow unwieldy targets.
That's not really conjecture... that's an inevitability with a demonstrable historical progression that can be pointed to, and an ongoing observable process as the US Navy moves towards adoption of railguns for its shipboard cannons, both the Navy and Army continue to adopt laser weaponry, and GPS-guided munitions become more commonplace.

Mobile Suits are large, slow, incredibly vulnerable targets in a world where things like this are commonplace. That's why Gundam's creators include cheats like Minovsky/GN particles that fog laser beams and jam radars or super tough armor made from unobtanium. Without those fictional cheats, you'd be seeing these hundred million dollar mobile suits taken out by twenty thousand dollar man-portable missile launchers and laser-guided bombs from aircraft flying well out of range.
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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Freighttrain » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:29 pm

@ShadowCell

I would think that advances in laser CIWS would render even hypersonic guided missiles ineffective, if that is what you were referring to by prceision weapons.

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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by DragoMaster009 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:10 pm

Uh Freighttrain, don't you think you may be overthinking your whole classification system, especially if you've never seen a lot of, if not all, the shows you're trying to classify?

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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Kuruni » Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:31 am

Freighttrain wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:25 pm
@Kuruni

You will just have to wait and see.
Consider what I've seen so far, "wait and see" it would be like waiting for Duke Nukem Forever in early 2000 (good gaming joke ruined by half-ass punchline).

I'll be blunt here, I see no problem if you want to invent new system for your own fanfic or custom RPG setting (and that's why your blog on Gundam Wiki is fine). But there's no reason to expect other to adopt it.
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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Freighttrain » Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:49 am

@DragoMaster009

Well I've seen Gundam Wing and Gundam 00 and from what I can tell, the mobile weapons from the After Colony and Anno Domini timelines seem to be the most realistic in the Gundam franchise, though what do you actually think of my mobile weapon classification systems regarding their realism and accuracy etc.?


@Kuruni

Haha are you that eager to see my new mecha post, don't worry you shouldn't have to wait too long, I just need to draw some basic diagrams.

And regarding my mobile weapon classification systems, at the moment I'm just interested in reading what people think about them as well as any comments about improvements or accuracy etc., I don't know where this talk of fan fiction came from though the comprehensiveness, complexity and orderliness of my classification systems would actually be a good base to develop a game with, do you think so too?

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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by DragoMaster009 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:25 am

...I honestly think you should look at what classifications and acronyms real militaries use before going back to your own system. Not to mention taking the advise of everybody else on this thread.

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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by ShadowCell » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:32 am

Freighttrain wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:29 pm
@ShadowCell

I would think that advances in laser CIWS would render even hypersonic guided missiles ineffective, if that is what you were referring to by prceision weapons.
assuming, of course, that there are advances in laser CIWS that are not matched by corresponding advances in guided missiles or anything else.

which still don't really get you to the point where using 18-meter-tall 80 ton brightly colored giant robots as your main (or even sole) implement of warfare is "realistic," because it still isn't. all the MacGuffins that Gundam shows use to get past the part where mecha are unrealistic are, after all, not real, so you don't really get to cite Minovsky physics and GN particles and the souls of your dead girlfriends in support of the idea that 18-meter-tall 80 ton brightly colored giant robots are a realistic way of waging war in the actual real world that doesn't feature those things.

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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Freighttrain » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:41 am

@DragoMaster009

I could say the same to you about looking up what kind of acronyms and initialisms the military uses for equipment and vehicles.


@ShadowCell

What kind of advances in guided missiles are you talking about though? A hypersonic or high-hypersonic missile is not faster than light.

And don't get your MacGuffins in a bunch because you're misinterpreting what I'm talking about, you'll just have to wait until I've made my article on the feasibility of gigantic humanoid military vehicles.

Though feel free to reply with precise information regarding why gigantic humanoid vehicles are not feasible in real world militaries.

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Kuruni
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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Kuruni » Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:43 am

I just tried to be polite. The result is obviously fail.
Freighttrain wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:49 am
Haha are you that eager to see my new mecha post, don't worry you shouldn't have to wait too long, I just need to draw some basic diagrams.
I used DNF as example of something not really worth waiting.
Freighttrain wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:49 am
from though the comprehensiveness, complexity and orderliness of my classification systems would actually be a good base to develop a game with, do you think so too?
Your level of complexity remind me of FATAL.
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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Freighttrain » Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:11 am

I didn't mean to seem as if I was being rude to you in my last reply Kuruni, anyway I haven't played Duke Nukem or FATAL so I don't really understand the references in your comments.

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ShadowCell
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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by ShadowCell » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:18 am

Freighttrain wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:41 am
Though feel free to reply with precise information regarding why gigantic humanoid vehicles are not feasible in real world militaries.
see, stuff like this is what makes me think you're a troll.

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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Freighttrain » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:21 am

Again, I did not mean to seem as if I was being rude to you in my last reply, I am actually interested in discussing technicalities regarding the feasibility of giant humanoid vehicles in real world militaries.

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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Freighttrain » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:10 am

@Seito Kaiba

Hello again, this is in response to your very long message on page 2 of this thread. I had actually worked all of this out when I first saw what you had written but you mentioned at the beginning that I hadn't been replying to yours or anyone eles points with counterpoints so I didn't see any reason why I should even bother typing a long reply to address all that you've said in that long message.

But I figured since no one else had posted any messages on this thread for a few days I might as well reply to what you brought up there.




Regarding the HMMVW, I only referenced it due to its coincidental similarity in the pronunciation of its acronym to the base acronym that I devised, that being SHMV, so I don't know why you go on to talk about why you think that I have factually incorrect notions of the nature of the acronym HMMVW when I don't actually say anything more regarding it in my mobile weapon classification systems and my classification systems do actually feature several other similar acronyms and initialism derived from that to describe similar vehicles with differing capabilities or features such as SHRV and SHEWV etc.

My use of those acronyms/initialisms is only one type of classification for such vehicles, obviously in other documentation pertaining to other information regarding those vehicles they would be designated otherwise or in addition to those acronyms but I have only listed them using my acronym and initialism designations in that one format, so my classification systems are still quite valid regarding this.

And as you mentioned on the first page of this thread:

'Really, I think this is kind of a boondoggle... one of the staple tropes of mecha anime in general is that the invention of humanoid mobile weapons is a totally new battlefield paradigm. Mobile weapons almost invariably end up being their own new classification, as they're typically difficult or impossible to pigeonhole them into the same classifications our modern fighting vehicles use. The way they operate is so different to everything else that they end up having to invent new terminology to categorize them.'

So you agree that the classification and terminology used to designation and description of such vehicles would be quite different from anything preexisting in regard to contemporary mlitary classification.

Well despite this I kept my classification systems as close to preexisting military classification as I thought was necessary so you seem to be slightly contradicting your previously stated beliefs regarding mecha classification with what you've said afterwards.




Also I'm not trying to classify mecha as if they are 'light trucks', I merely pointed out a similarity in the pronunciation of the acronyms HMMVW and SHMV, nothing more.

And don't bring cars into this for Christ's sake, it isn't relevant to military vehicle classification in this context and it isn't something I've ever been interested in so I don't have anything to say regarding that other than it has always seemed like an obnoxious and annoyingly superficial hobby.




You mention that mobile weapons in the Gundam franchise are designations are based on the tri-service aircraft designation system rather than the systems used by ground forces fighting vehicles, well again, my classifications systems were developed with realism and preexisting classification in mind, not whatever they're designated in Gundam media and I've already mentioned this.

And from the perspective of the development of mecha in real world militaries, they would certainly begin as ground vehicles and only later (probably much later) develop flight capable mecha, so using acronym and initialism designations in a similar trend to those used by contemporary military ground combat vehicles makes much more sense.

So unless you can develop similarly comprehensive mecha classification systems or suggest improvements to my own, you aren't saying anything that is of use to me.




And again, you keep talking about how mobile weapons are classified in the Gundam franchise, this isn't what my classification systems are about, they are about how such vehicles would be classified and designated in real world militaries and I chose the mobile weapons of the After Colony and Anno Domini timelines because they seemed the most realistic and relevant to me regarding this. And so the result is not the same as how they are classified in Gundam media, I shouldn't have to keep repeating this.

I'm not talking about how those mobile weapons are depicted or described in Gundam media, that is more or less irrelevant to my classification systems except where I mention otherwise, the political whatever or space colonisation etc. from the After Colony timelone has no bearing on what my classification systems are about, they are simply about how such vehicles would be classified in a system as close as possible to preexisting contemporary military classification.




My battlefield role designations (multirole, ranged combat, CQC etc.) are all perfectly valid and relevant, have a look at those mobile weapons on the Gundam wiki and try to explain to me that the vehicles I've listed in whatever combat role do not belong there.

And you mention that there are already existing acronyms and terminology that communicate the same information more efficiently, well then perhaps you would like to elaborate on what it is you are talking about because otherwise you aren't making a valid point.




You say that GIs or marines aren't going to know what words like xerocolous means, well why would they unless they are driving those vehicles or need to know otherwise, obviously a military would appraise its soldiers of whatever they need to know, do you think a GI or marine would understand complicated helicopter or aircraft terminology, of course they wouldn't, they don't need to because they aren't piloting those vehicles and I actually have a terminology section in my classification systems that explain the meaning of all those words so there's no reason to make a big deal about it.




It's plain to see in your writing that you're disgruntled by my progress as an individual regarding the feasibility of mecha in real world militaries, I don't know why this would be because I haven't given you any reason to speak to me like that and I only made this post to talk about a topic that I wouldn't have thought could cause such a reaction.

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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by ShadowCell » Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:47 am

Freighttrain wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:21 am
Again, I did not mean to seem as if I was being rude to you in my last reply, I am actually interested in discussing technicalities regarding the feasibility of giant humanoid vehicles in real world militaries.
well, see, there is one person in this thread who has engaged your little classification thing here most fully, and you are straight up ignoring everything he says, which shows me that you aren't really interested in "discussing" this little classification thing of yours.

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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Seto Kaiba » Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:57 pm

Freighttrain wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:10 am
But I figured since no one else had posted any messages on this thread for a few days I might as well reply to what you brought up there.
Nobody is replying to you because you've managed to convince everyone that you're a troll.
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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Freighttrain » Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:13 pm

Well if neither you nor anyone else has no sticks left to try and poke holes in my realistic mobile weapon classification systems, then I can only interpret this to mean that you all consider them to be sound.

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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Seto Kaiba » Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:58 pm

Freighttrain wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:13 pm
Well if neither you nor anyone else has no sticks left to try and poke holes in my realistic mobile weapon classification systems, then I can only interpret this to mean that you all consider them to be sound.
Oh my, no... :lol:

Most of the folks who responded to you pointed out that what you're (excessively) generously calling a "classification system" is, in fact, complete and utter hogwash that shows virtually no knowledge of real world military affairs or the source material. As the mods have noted, you simply seem to be unwilling (or unable?) to understand what the other members of the forums have pointed out to you about how fatally flawed your entire premise is and all the errors that you've made in pursuing it. There is nothing remotely sound about what you've written. Your willful ignorance on the subject has simply exhausted the patience of everyone tolerant enough to wade through your nonsense article. That would, of course, be a big part of why we all see you as a troll.
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Re: Realistic Mobile Weapon Classification Systems

Post by Freighttrain » Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:21 pm

Well if you would go back and read my messages on this thread, you will notice that I have actually taken care to respond to each and every argument brought up by yourself and others.

Now was there anything in particular that either yourself or anyone else mentioned regarding my classification systems that you feel as if I haven't satisfactorily replied to here?

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