How do you envision PLANT?

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How do you envision PLANT?

Post by False Prophet » Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:49 am

IMHO, unlike space colonies in U.C. timelines, the earliest settlements in PLANT were coordinators who fled the growing discrimination on Earth. And since these Coordinators were versed in technologies as well as possessing a presumably good amount of capital (since only rich parents could afford the Coordinator procedure for their children), I imagine PLANT to had a very technocratic, accelerationist, and individualistic society. Things definitely changed after the Bloody Valentine though, with people getting more paranoid while the government clamped down on the public.

(On a related topic, which measures do you think a colonist government could implement to keep the inhabitants in the dark? Zeon definitely did so--I mean, even some diehards would had felt nauseous had they knew the full extent of the destruction brought about by Operation British, right?--but how?)

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Re: How do you envision PLANT?

Post by Seto Kaiba » Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:53 am

IIRC, the official backstory for Gundam SEED points to construction of the PLANTs being financed by the Atlantic Federation, Eurasian Federation, and East Asian Republic as space-based R&D and manufacturing facilities and it was not until later that Coordinators started fleeing to the PLANTs to escape discrimination on Earth.

The PLANTs don't appear to have been a technocracy, given that the PLANT Supreme Council is a democratically-elected governing body and they're shown to be chosen more on the basis of political affiliations and leanings than scientific ability and achievement. There's nothing in-series to suggest that the PLANTs had accelerationist leanings either. Really, we see rather a lot of the PLANT Supreme Council, so it's not like we have to guess how the place is run.

As far as a colonial government keeping colonists in the dark, that's not even difficult... governments right here on Earth keep their constituents in the dark about all kinds of horrible stuff all the time. The same methods that work so well right now wouldn't need any change to work in a space colony. Just censor the press or keep them away from the dirty little secrets, and keep them classified to prevent military and government officials from talking about it under penalty of law. Out of sight, out of mind.
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Re: How do you envision PLANT?

Post by False Prophet » Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:47 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:53 am
IIRC, the official backstory for Gundam SEED points to construction of the PLANTs being financed by the Atlantic Federation, Eurasian Federation, and East Asian Republic as space-based R&D and manufacturing facilities and it was not until later that Coordinators started fleeing to the PLANTs to escape discrimination on Earth.

The PLANTs don't appear to have been a technocracy, given that the PLANT Supreme Council is a democratically-elected governing body and they're shown to be chosen more on the basis of political affiliations and leanings than scientific ability and achievement. There's nothing in-series to suggest that the PLANTs had accelerationist leanings either. Really, we see rather a lot of the PLANT Supreme Council, so it's not like we have to guess how the place is run.

As far as a colonial government keeping colonists in the dark, that's not even difficult... governments right here on Earth keep their constituents in the dark about all kinds of horrible stuff all the time. The same methods that work so well right now wouldn't need any change to work in a space colony. Just censor the press or keep them away from the dirty little secrets, and keep them classified to prevent military and government officials from talking about it under penalty of law. Out of sight, out of mind.
The "technocratic" and "accelerationistic" things I mentioned are more about the public's conscience than actual political leanings. I mean, Coordinators are great achievements of science, and the colonies they live inside are too. It isn't so hard to imagine they have a mindset of "technology will solve all".

There is always one thing that have been wondering about Gundam series: Is there an Internet? Sure, current Internet censorship measures probably will work even with an inter-colony Internet, but will there be any difference?

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Re: How do you envision PLANT?

Post by MythSearcher » Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:53 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:53 am
IIRC, the official backstory for Gundam SEED points to construction of the PLANTs being financed by the Atlantic Federation, Eurasian Federation, and East Asian Republic as space-based R&D and manufacturing facilities and it was not until later that Coordinators started fleeing to the PLANTs to escape discrimination on Earth.

The PLANTs don't appear to have been a technocracy, given that the PLANT Supreme Council is a democratically-elected governing body and they're shown to be chosen more on the basis of political affiliations and leanings than scientific ability and achievement. There's nothing in-series to suggest that the PLANTs had accelerationist leanings either. Really, we see rather a lot of the PLANT Supreme Council, so it's not like we have to guess how the place is run.

As far as a colonial government keeping colonists in the dark, that's not even difficult... governments right here on Earth keep their constituents in the dark about all kinds of horrible stuff all the time. The same methods that work so well right now wouldn't need any change to work in a space colony. Just censor the press or keep them away from the dirty little secrets, and keep them classified to prevent military and government officials from talking about it under penalty of law. Out of sight, out of mind.
Wait, are they really democratically elected? As I recall in one of those settings, they were selected by a computer program to enter the council and only voted for the chairperson?
False Prophet wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:49 am
IMHO, unlike space colonies in U.C. timelines, the earliest settlements in PLANT were coordinators who fled the growing discrimination on Earth. And since these Coordinators were versed in technologies as well as possessing a presumably good amount of capital (since only rich parents could afford the Coordinator procedure for their children), I imagine PLANT to had a very technocratic, accelerationist, and individualistic society. Things definitely changed after the Bloody Valentine though, with people getting more paranoid while the government clamped down on the public.

(On a related topic, which measures do you think a colonist government could implement to keep the inhabitants in the dark? Zeon definitely did so--I mean, even some diehards would had felt nauseous had they knew the full extent of the destruction brought about by Operation British, right?--but how?)
PLANTS are also built pretty much purely on Natural's money. That is why they can suppress the people there by limiting them from manufacturing food and buying their better build technology products at a super cheap price which is very good for the big merchants but really bad for the Naturals on Earth who are making similar products which created more of the anger against the Coordinators. (Surely people who are working in the high tech business should at least have the brains to understand this is not the fault of the Coordinators but the big companies who are exploiting both sides, but I guess not.)

Zeon can do it pretty much because Side 3 is mainly close colonies. i.e. the only communication you can make is by way of transmission through the colony government controlled stations. (You can't just point your radio to a window and receive signals from the EF controlled stations.)
Having the whole moon to block the signals is also helping the situation, even if you are working outside the colony, as long as Zeon cuts off the communication satellite signals, you will not hear anything from outside Side 3. (Physically shooting down those, having some sort of screen blocking them or simply release some Minovsky particles around their colonies are all possible solutions)

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Re: How do you envision PLANT?

Post by Seto Kaiba » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:34 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:47 am
The "technocratic" and "accelerationistic" things I mentioned are more about the public's conscience than actual political leanings. I mean, Coordinators are great achievements of science, and the colonies they live inside are too. It isn't so hard to imagine they have a mindset of "technology will solve all".
We don't really see anything in-series to support either of those being widely accepted social policy... the PLANTs seem to have a heavily-regulated, government-managed economy with the various "cities" having their designated monopolies on various areas of scientific and technological research, development, and production. That's pretty much the polar opposite of accelerationistic.


False Prophet wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:47 am
There is always one thing that have been wondering about Gundam series: Is there an Internet? Sure, current Internet censorship measures probably will work even with an inter-colony Internet, but will there be any difference?
That's an interesting question... since you'd be dealing with lightspeed delays over distances exceeding one light second between Sides and from Sides to Earth, and with radio frequency communication hobbled occasionally by Minovsky particles, managing an internet covering the Earth Sphere would be extremely difficult at best. Using tight-focus laser communication would suffice for linking colonies to each other for high-bandwidth data traffic, but it's that light second leap to Earth that would make things difficult. Even gigawatt pulsed-laser observatory systems experience such a significant loss of beam collimation over a distance like that that the return pulse on lunar retroreflectors is like 1-3 photons per pulse. Not enough signal strength for stable communications.

There does seem to be an internet or analogous global data network in the Cosmic Era, Anno Domini Era, and the Post-Disaster Era. Only Post-Disaster seems to have a clear answer of how it's actually achieved though, with the Ariadne network enabling QCCS communication over interplanetary distances. (There's no such cheat in the other settings, where humanity is still using RF and laser communication.)

Application of censorship measures would largely be dependent on how the network is structured... particularly how many channels of communication exist linking a colony to other nodes in the network. For effective control like China's "Great Firewall" you need to have all communications be state-managed, so they can effectively lock out or blackhole DNS entries for forbidden content and track queries for forbidden topics back to end users. For networks with providers that are merely government-regulated, information control can be nearly impossible as the sheer number of servers and hardlines that would need to be secured would render total control unfeasible. Colonies likely exist in the "government-controlled communications" style, though how many actual physical communications systems they have establishing a network would determine the difficulty of filtering content.


MythSearcher wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:53 am
Wait, are they really democratically elected? As I recall in one of those settings, they were selected by a computer program to enter the council and only voted for the chairperson?
IIRC the computer program picked from members of the general assembly... who were democratically elected by the various colonies.
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Re: How do you envision PLANT?

Post by Chris » Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:29 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:47 am
There is always one thing that have been wondering about Gundam series: Is there an Internet? Sure, current Internet censorship measures probably will work even with an inter-colony Internet, but will there be any difference?
I remember early in Zeta that Kamille mentions that he heard about the AEUG in "underground newspapers." I'm sure in 1985 that was conceived of as a physical product, but through a modern lens it could be reinterpreted as a website. On the other hand, communication and travel between colonies seems limited in the 0080s. Otherwise, how else could the Titans carry out the Colony 30 massacre and no one hears about it?

Separately, the Crossbone Ghost manga, set in UC 0153, clearly features the internet, with the main character being an MS fanboy who runs an MAHQ-type website.
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Re: How do you envision PLANT?

Post by False Prophet » Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:52 pm

Chris wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:29 pm
I remember early in Zeta that Kamille mentions that he heard about the AEUG in "underground newspapers." I'm sure in 1985 that was conceived of as a physical product, but through a modern lens it could be reinterpreted as a website. On the other hand, communication and travel between colonies seems limited in the 0080s. Otherwise, how else could the Titans carry out the Colony 30 massacre and no one hears about it?

Separately, the Crossbone Ghost manga, set in UC 0153, clearly features the internet, with the main character being an MS fanboy who runs an MAHQ-type website.
Yeah, that is one point I have been thinking about. Following OYW, it would had been common sense for colonies to install an alert system that warned Earth of any attack from the outside and inside. (Then again, the Titans probably had a way around such a system).

Just imagine the conspiracy theorists in U.C...

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Re: How do you envision PLANT?

Post by MythSearcher » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:32 pm

Chris wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:29 pm
I remember early in Zeta that Kamille mentions that he heard about the AEUG in "underground newspapers." I'm sure in 1985 that was conceived of as a physical product, but through a modern lens it could be reinterpreted as a website. On the other hand, communication and travel between colonies seems limited in the 0080s. Otherwise, how else could the Titans carry out the Colony 30 massacre and no one hears about it?

Separately, the Crossbone Ghost manga, set in UC 0153, clearly features the internet, with the main character being an MS fanboy who runs an MAHQ-type website.
It is quite simple that you can't have inter-side communication equipment without others noticing?
Colonies are a few hundred to thousands of kilometres apart in the same side, so you can maybe still communicate with each other via radio and microwave transmission that will be clear(yet can be encoded) but with relatively small equipment so it is harder to pin point the exact location of it.(Actually, military technology nowadays can trace back the source of such waves so don't be too confident about not being found)
Different sides, on the other hand, can be 380000km apart. L3, 4, 5 are all about 380000km from all other L-points, L1 and L2 are about 100000~120000km apart and blocked by the moon so you will need relay stations. That is kinda why Side 3, at L2, has the luxury to block all communications. They just need to physically cut down the relay stations.
You will need enomously huge equipments and highly directional transmission between them, and if you want it to be a broadcast, it will be easily tuned on and the source will be easy to find.
Laser communication stations that are directional and hard to intercept are still as large as a room as discussed in the manga "Developers".

It is hard to imagine individuals having such equipments, and the colonies are controlled mainly by the Federation, meaning you really can't built things on top of it without being noticed. Even if you can somehow take control one colony, all the other colonies around you can simply see the newly installed equipments by simple telescopes.

The Titans, being with the burrecratic machine of the Federation can obviously use the system to eliminate all outside observations and outgoing communications from 30 Batch.
False Prophet wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:52 pm
Just imagine the conspiracy theorists in U.C...
Maybe they became the small percentage that is actually correct. Other than those in modern day dictatorship countries.

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Re: How do you envision PLANT?

Post by False Prophet » Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:06 am

MythSearcher wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:32 pm

It is quite simple that you can't have inter-side communication equipment without others noticing?
Colonies are a few hundred to thousands of kilometres apart in the same side, so you can maybe still communicate with each other via radio and microwave transmission that will be clear(yet can be encoded) but with relatively small equipment so it is harder to pin point the exact location of it.(Actually, military technology nowadays can trace back the source of such waves so don't be too confident about not being found)
Different sides, on the other hand, can be 380000km apart. L3, 4, 5 are all about 380000km from all other L-points, L1 and L2 are about 100000~120000km apart and blocked by the moon so you will need relay stations. That is kinda why Side 3, at L2, has the luxury to block all communications. They just need to physically cut down the relay stations.
You will need enomously huge equipments and highly directional transmission between them, and if you want it to be a broadcast, it will be easily tuned on and the source will be easy to find.
Laser communication stations that are directional and hard to intercept are still as large as a room as discussed in the manga "Developers".

It is hard to imagine individuals having such equipments, and the colonies are controlled mainly by the Federation, meaning you really can't built things on top of it without being noticed. Even if you can somehow take control one colony, all the other colonies around you can simply see the newly installed equipments by simple telescopes.

The Titans, being with the burrecratic machine of the Federation can obviously use the system to eliminate all outside observations and outgoing communications from 30 Batch.
Wasn't Io from Thunderbolt had a working radio/Walkman (and if I recall correctly, actually work in the battlefield)?

Anyway, have anyone here tried to to compare the density of colonies between a PLANT city and a colony cluster in a side? And there are some colonies that stay alone in U.C. (Moon Moon from ZZ?), but I wonder if there are any lonesome colony like that in C.E.?

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Re: How do you envision PLANT?

Post by Dark Duel » Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:41 am

It’s been years since I’ve watched Seed, but Heliopolis seemed to be all alone IIRC. There’s no sign or mention I can recall of other colonies in that sector- the nearest inhabited location in the area IIRC was the military asteroid base at Artemis.
Likewise Armory One(which was predominantly a military base) IIRC was a single colony, not a cluster like the twelve PLANT “cities”
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Re: How do you envision PLANT?

Post by Seto Kaiba » Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:29 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:06 am
Wasn't Io from Thunderbolt had a working radio/Walkman (and if I recall correctly, actually work in the battlefield)?
He did... but that only worked because there was a pirate radio station (never seen) that was operating somewhere out in the Thunderbolt Sector. They must have had some pretty powerful transmitters to cover that area, probably poached from one of the destroyed colonies in the area.

False Prophet wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:06 am
Anyway, have anyone here tried to to compare the density of colonies between a PLANT city and a colony cluster in a side? And there are some colonies that stay alone in U.C. (Moon Moon from ZZ?), but I wonder if there are any lonesome colony like that in C.E.?
Hard data for the PLANTs was surprisingly easy to come by. Each PLANT has two circular habitation areas that are 10km in diameter, meaning the habitable area of a PLANT-type space colony is 157.08 square kilometers. It's said that they have a typical population of 500,000. Each city is 12 PLANTs, for 120 PLANTs total. So ZAFT had around 18,850 square kilometers housing 60 million people. That's 3,183 people per square kilometer assuming a uniform distribution (which never happens in reality, but it's a nice figure for comparison's sake).

Based on the numbers from the official Gundam: the Origin site, the typical dimensions for both the open and closed type O'Neill Cylinder colonies was 36km long and 6.41km in diameter. Solving for the total interior area of a cylinder gives us 789.49 square kilometers, from which we subtract the endcaps at 32.27 square kilometers apiece and we get 724.95 square kilometers. We'll call it 725 square kilometers for simplicity's sake. That 725 square km was for the closed type. It's halved to 362.5 for the open type's windows. If we knew the typical population of the closed or open type, and how many colonies were in a typical side, we could make some determinations about the density of the population there.
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Re: How do you envision PLANT?

Post by MythSearcher » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:41 am

False Prophet wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:06 am
Wasn't Io from Thunderbolt had a working radio/Walkman (and if I recall correctly, actually work in the battlefield)?
That is quickly altered.
In the first Chapter the author surely didn't read or even cared about the settings, and made the radio.
In the second chapter, probably someone told him about Minovsky particles(likely because a lot of fan comments and letters overwhelmed his mail box and the internet) and he changed it so that the radio was pre-recorded. The pilot listened to the radio before they enter operation area and once the interference became serious, he switched to recordings instead of transmission.

Anyway, Thunderbolt is not canon. Officials now list it as alternate UC.
The stupid religious organization just can't exist in canon because it is never mentioned in any other shows but is set to be too influential in TB.

And yes, I hate the author of TB, he can mess with his own creation like Moonlight Mile(which he totally ruined) but seriously I cannot accept him messing with UC.
Anyway, have anyone here tried to to compare the density of colonies between a PLANT city and a colony cluster in a side? And there are some colonies that stay alone in U.C. (Moon Moon from ZZ?), but I wonder if there are any lonesome colony like that in C.E.?
No, but obviously each CE hourglass colony has way smaller population capacity than a modified and super charged Island 3 of UC. (UC's colonies look the same as Island 3 O'Neil Cylinders but they are set to have about 3 times the pop cap.)
You get about 1 million pop cap for the CE hourglass (Bloody Valentine had ~300k deaths) but the UC colonies had a 20-30 million pop cap. So you need about 20-30 CE hourglass to match a single cylinder in UC, but they surely don't have as much hour glass floating around.(10 as a batch) As a side note, the close type colonies in Side 3 has double the pop cap., so 60 million. How much they are filled is another concern. (Side 3 likely doesn't really have the population to fill all of its colonies to the max but with all the illegal immigrants and they kept building new colonies to accommodate them, you really don't know the exact population of Side 3 and UC to that extend)
In UC, they have about 40~80 colonies in a Side, I never see CE having hundreds of colonies packed in each L-Point.

We have a few accounts of standalone colonies in UC, but like I have always said, no colony can be completely isolated from others. The reason is simple, you can never design a perfectly self sustained colony because there are always losses to space. Air and Water particles will slowly (or actually pretty quickly) leak out of the walls, no matter how you design the colony. Artificial gravity generation by rotation makes things tends to go outwards, no solid walls is completely sealed(you learn that when building a vacuum chamber. particles actually passes through the walls of the chamber between the particles of the wall) and all airlocks will be contributing to some air loss. Debris impacting the colonies will also create small hole with leakage. Considering some of the docks that can have ships as large as the WB coming in and out while human can be seen walking next to the ships without using air masks meaning they fill the whole dock with air, the air being leaked out through the docks will be enormous (depressurizing even a small vacuum chamber takes hours to reach a medium vacuum and days to reach a high vacuum, weeks for a ultra-high vacuum, obviously you cannot have the docks locking the ships in it for weeks).
You can minimize the restocking and get the air and water from other places like the Jupiter fleet of Zeon. But for a standalone colony, they simply don't have that many resources to start their own Jupiter fleet. Maybe they can get enough from the moon, I have no idea if there are any EF laws or moon city local laws forbidding them from doing so but they surely need to have some level of communication with other colonies and lunar cities to at least be able to secure the resources or the ships they will be sending out not being intercepted and captured because of not having the proper permits/licenses.

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Re: How do you envision PLANT?

Post by Seto Kaiba » Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:27 pm

MythSearcher wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:41 am
Anyway, Thunderbolt is not canon. Officials now list it as alternate UC.
I missed that little detail.

Thank goodness for that... Blunderbolt is a sh*t-awful edgelord version of Gundam. Even AU status is too good for it, IMO, but I'll take what I can get.

MythSearcher wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:41 am
You get about 1 million pop cap for the CE hourglass (Bloody Valentine had ~300k deaths) but the UC colonies had a 20-30 million pop cap.
Got a source for that UC colony population cap? Or maybe a more average population size?

Those numbers are just flat ridiculous. With an open-type colony, you'd have a population density of over 82,000 people per square kilometer! The whole colony would have to be nothing but one enormous urban low-rise slum to fit so many people. That's twice the population density of Kowloon! That doesn't even come close to what we see in the shows, in the manga, etc., where the colonies are presented as actually-not-sh*tty places to live with open fields and parklands and so on. Take a 0 off that and it might be reasonable.
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Re: How do you envision PLANT?

Post by Deacon Blues » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:03 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:27 pm
MythSearcher wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:41 am
Anyway, Thunderbolt is not canon. Officials now list it as alternate UC.
I missed that little detail.

Thank goodness for that... Blunderbolt is a sh*t-awful edgelord version of Gundam. Even AU status is too good for it, IMO, but I'll take what I can get.
He needs to cite where that tidbit came from. No official publication states that it is alternative timeline. the closest anything anyone has said is that it runs half parallel to the official history but whatever that really means is anyone's guess

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Re: How do you envision PLANT?

Post by yazi88 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:27 am

Yeah, WHERE is this info coming from that Thunderbolt is alternate UC? I haven't seen any official statement on it aside from a few people saying it, those same people are also trying to defend the absurd/moronic logic/plot of Thunderbolt to rest of UC especially OYW...

There is still plenty of weird stuff in Gundam manga, like how the Hasegawa, the artist of Crossbone, is still making Crossbone sequels in which the current one takes place AFTER Victory Gundam which is pretty insulting...

Mind you, Sunrise/Bandai's take on canon is that only the animated works are official. Take that however way you want, because there have been some alternate takes on things like the What-If from Gundam Evolve with CCA Amuro and the Zeta movies. Gundam manga never get referenced when it comes to anime, hell it barely gets referenced in other Gundam mangas unless its by the same author... Gundam games get referenced in manga and vice versa.

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Re: How do you envision PLANT?

Post by MythSearcher » Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:48 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:27 pm

Got a source for that UC colony population cap? Or maybe a more average population size?

Those numbers are just flat ridiculous. With an open-type colony, you'd have a population density of over 82,000 people per square kilometer! The whole colony would have to be nothing but one enormous urban low-rise slum to fit so many people. That's twice the population density of Kowloon! That doesn't even come close to what we see in the shows, in the manga, etc., where the colonies are presented as actually-not-sh*tty places to live with open fields and parklands and so on. Take a 0 off that and it might be reasonable.
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30 million is basically just multiplying O'Neill's 10 million by 3, (Island 3's population in O'Neill's original proposal is 2~20 X 10^6 for double units of model 4: https://space.nss.org/the-colonization- ... oday-1974/)
It is actually on average 25 million(open) and 50 million(close) in UC in the same book on P.56 for the OYW pre-war numbers.
Given the source is basically trying to cramp everyone of those 9 billion spacenoids in the settings into the colonies and lunar cities.
The listed number of colonies is 40 for Side 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 and 80 for 5.
(It said Side 5 is in more stable space and thus estimated double colonies in it.)
And thus we get 1 billion in Side 1,2,4,6 and 2 billions in 3 and 5(3 being closed types)
Lunar cities having 0.8 billion and other misc. space workers being the rest 0.2 billion.
Earthnoid with 2 billions and you get the 11 billion total.

The spec for the UC colonies are a bit different from O'Neil cylinders, using metric, it is 6.5km instead of the 6.4km O'Neil proposed, the length of the colonies seemed to have ignored the hemisphere and became 30~40km depending on the source(but Rapport deluxe used 30km, while Island 3 is 32km, after subtracting the 6.4km of the hemisphere you get only 25.6km) and they have greatly reduced the forest and park area to about 5%. It totally ignored roads, I guess everything has to be underground.
The calculations are not very precise, but it also said only 1/4 of the colony area is comparable to the area surrounded by the Yamanote line. So I guess that calculation did used the highest possible population density.

Using these figures, we have about 306.3km^2 total, 291.0km^2 subtracting the forest and park areas, so we get 103092.8 pop cap per km^2 and about 86000 per km^2 for the actual population figure given.

Giving each individual 0.086m^2, or 860cm^2 about a single ft^2, nice.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure you have a great density problem in all colonies.

I live in Hong Kong, the fourth densest city in the world.(And it's blatant lies, there are just way too many underdeveloped area out there with no population as opposed to the almost completely covered Macau, so the actual density is much higher in HK)

I have thought of ways of fitting that many people before.
Instead of having only a single layer with unobstructed skies so you can see the other side of the colony, have multiple layers.
This does not really solve the problems though, if you give each person 10m^2 of space(about the public housing pledge of HK, and a lot of people only live in rooms with only a 80cm X 180cm area, the public housing in HK are deluxe houses even if you can only get something like a 5.5m^2 in reality per person), you need about 116 layers.
Considering there is only a 0.2g difference for each 150m in height for a 0.5rpm 6.5km cylinder, you can kinda build layers about 2.6m apart of each other and fit everything in a 300m thick sandwich.
Seriously depressing.
yazi88 wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:27 am
Yeah, WHERE is this info coming from that Thunderbolt is alternate UC? I haven't seen any official statement on it aside from a few people saying it, those same people are also trying to defend the absurd/moronic logic/plot of Thunderbolt to rest of UC especially OYW...

There is still plenty of weird stuff in Gundam manga, like how the Hasegawa, the artist of Crossbone, is still making Crossbone sequels in which the current one takes place AFTER Victory Gundam which is pretty insulting...
The 40th anniversary announcement quoted some to be alternate, like Origin and TB.
Since it was only a brief scene in a video, and most of the attention is of course NT and Hathaway, people don't really pay attention to the added alternate UC sign that much.
Though I also can't really find the pictures from that video, so I won't say I am sure about that.
I just stick to this because I hate TB so much I can't stand it.
Mind you, Sunrise/Bandai's take on canon is that only the animated works are official. Take that however way you want, because there have been some alternate takes on things like the What-If from Gundam Evolve with CCA Amuro and the Zeta movies. Gundam manga never get referenced when it comes to anime, hell it barely gets referenced in other Gundam mangas unless its by the same author... Gundam games get referenced in manga and vice versa.
Seriously, no.
That came from an interview, and not really with a person actually representing the company's stance and they have actually contradicted that by the Gundam Officials.
You also get a bunch of anime that contradict with each other, you don't have to go far, the MSG TV and movies are already contradictory. You always need published sources to tell which is canon.
And, well, GUNDAM Mission to the Rise is pretty hard to mix into canon.
Also, Japanese treat Official and Canon quite differently than westerners.

Origin is strictly alternative, Delaz's scene showing him in the beginning of 0083 hearing the death of Gihren is completely made up in his own biography according to Gundam Officials(Because of the radio silence during the time, he only speculated Gihren's death and not being reported to)

Of course at the same time, to prevent devaluing the shows, Bandai/Sunrise tried their best to make the canon line as fuzzy as possible.
Even for the non-canon shows, they will from time to time pick out items to canonize if it does not contradict the canon too much. And recent years they thought of the concept to canonize things in simulation.(Like Delta Gundam)

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Re: How do you envision PLANT?

Post by Seto Kaiba » Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:24 pm

MythSearcher wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:48 am
Rapport Deluxe publications ISBN4-89799-293-1 MSG Universal Century vol. 1 "History" P.55
Wow, ISBN and everything... thanks! That'll make it easy to find a copy for myself. :D

MythSearcher wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:48 am
Given the source is basically trying to cramp everyone of those 9 billion spacenoids in the settings into the colonies and lunar cities.
The listed number of colonies is 40 for Side 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 and 80 for 5.
Given what we see of the colonies, it sounds like they've shortsold the number of colonies, if anything.

MythSearcher wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:48 am
The spec for the UC colonies are a bit different from O'Neil cylinders, using metric, it is 6.5km instead of the 6.4km O'Neil proposed, the length of the colonies seemed to have ignored the hemisphere and became 30~40km depending on the source(but Rapport deluxe used 30km, while Island 3 is 32km, after subtracting the 6.4km of the hemisphere you get only 25.6km) and they have greatly reduced the forest and park area to about 5%. It totally ignored roads, I guess everything has to be underground.
Depends on the source... as noted previously, Origin's official website cites the typical colony dimensions as 6.41x32km.

MythSearcher wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:48 am
Giving each individual 0.086m^2, or 860cm^2 about a single ft^2, nice.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure you have a great density problem in all colonies.
My point being that it isn't really supported by any colony we see in the the UC... we never see anything that looks to be worse off than metropolitan Tokyo, and many that are seemingly more along the lines of suburbs. With the exceptions of Moon Moon and Shangri-La, the colonies we see look like relatively nice places to live. Libot and Green Noa look like suburban developments, Texas and the colony from Developers both had loads of "wilderness" area. Even Side 3's own capital city looks no more overpopulated than a medium-sized city. Shangri-La was a sparsely populated dump. If the colonies really had such massive population density we'd expect something more like Kowloon's walled city or Toronto's St. James Town district, or maybe the Dorts from IBO which seemed to be pure highrise buildings. Even Moore in Side 4 in Thunderbolt looked more like a light and spaceous urban environment, and Thunderbolt was trying to jack the grim up to 12.

MythSearcher wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:48 am
I have thought of ways of fitting that many people before.
Instead of having only a single layer with unobstructed skies so you can see the other side of the colony, have multiple layers.
This does not really solve the problems though, if you give each person 10m^2 of space(about the public housing pledge of HK, and a lot of people only live in rooms with only a 80cm X 180cm area, the public housing in HK are deluxe houses even if you can only get something like a 5.5m^2 in reality per person), you need about 116 layers.
Considering there is only a 0.2g difference for each 150m in height for a 0.5rpm 6.5km cylinder, you can kinda build layers about 2.6m apart of each other and fit everything in a 300m thick sandwich.
Seriously depressing.
Not to mention it totally doesn't work with how the colonies are depicted, with just the one exterior bulkhead between the colony interior and space. This cheat was visibly used in Macross though, with the first Frontier movie showing that Island-1 had three and a half layers with opposite orientations thanks to gravity control.
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Re: How do you envision PLANT?

Post by Deacon Blues » Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:34 pm

MythSearcher wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:48 am

The 40th anniversary announcement quoted some to be alternate, like Origin and TB.
Since it was only a brief scene in a video, and most of the attention is of course NT and Hathaway, people don't really pay attention to the added alternate UC sign that much.
Though I also can't really find the pictures from that video, so I won't say I am sure about that.
I just stick to this because I hate TB so much I can't stand it.
This is how misinformation starts and it needs to stop.

You're so steadfast in your hatred for the show you're mentioning something that was not present in the video presentation of the 40th. I watched it and don't recall anything of the sort. As I stated, one of the producers claimed it was some parallel history to the main timeline but we don't even know what that means. If you can't present your facts, then don't stick your opinion onto them. We already have enough convoluted misinformation about Origin and Thunderbolt. We don't need more.
Seriously, no.
That came from an interview, and not really with a person actually representing the company's stance and they have actually contradicted that by the Gundam Officials.
You also get a bunch of anime that contradict with each other, you don't have to go far, the MSG TV and movies are already contradictory. You always need published sources to tell which is canon.
And, well, GUNDAM Mission to the Rise is pretty hard to mix into canon.
Also, Japanese treat Official and Canon quite differently than westerners.
Except those were staffers who represent Gundam... So again, how is that relevant? Gundam Officials encyclopedia is not a definitive Gundam book. It too has errors. Later publications contradict this book ten times over. Published sources are never accurate. If that's true, then the Gray Phantom from 0080 is actually the Troy Horse because B-CLUB says so according to old lineart files (as an example). There is no strict canon and never will be, honestly.
Origin is strictly alternative, Delaz's scene showing him in the beginning of 0083 hearing the death of Gihren is completely made up in his own biography according to Gundam Officials(Because of the radio silence during the time, he only speculated Gihren's death and not being reported to)
What does Origin have to do with 0083? I don't recall reading that in his bio so I'll have to double check but the radio silence isn't exactly true either... 0081 Avant title has Erich being lied to about the status of things from the Dolos.

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Re: How do you envision PLANT?

Post by Seto Kaiba » Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:00 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:06 am
Anyway, have anyone here tried to to compare the density of colonies between a PLANT city and a colony cluster in a side? And there are some colonies that stay alone in U.C. (Moon Moon from ZZ?), but I wonder if there are any lonesome colony like that in C.E.?
So, getting us back on something resembling the original topic... it looks like we have a reasonable answer for this question now. The difference in population density between the Cosmic Era's PLANTs and the Universal Century's space colonies is pretty freaking extreme.

With just 3,183 people per square kilometer, the PLANTs have a population density very similar to that of the city of Seattle (3,242 per km^2). That's enough room for 500,000 people to live in reasonable comfort.

The space colonies in the Sides, however, are more extreme. The figures given point to a population density around 83,000-86,000 people per square kilometer. That's more on the order of a densely-packed slum district like Toronto's St. James Town neighborhood which has 12,000 people living on a mere 1/7th of a square kilometer.
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Re: How do you envision PLANT?

Post by False Prophet » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:46 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:00 pm
False Prophet wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:06 am
Anyway, have anyone here tried to to compare the density of colonies between a PLANT city and a colony cluster in a side? And there are some colonies that stay alone in U.C. (Moon Moon from ZZ?), but I wonder if there are any lonesome colony like that in C.E.?
So, getting us back on something resembling the original topic... it looks like we have a reasonable answer for this question now. The difference in population density between the Cosmic Era's PLANTs and the Universal Century's space colonies is pretty freaking extreme.

With just 3,183 people per square kilometer, the PLANTs have a population density very similar to that of the city of Seattle (3,242 per km^2). That's enough room for 500,000 people to live in reasonable comfort.

The space colonies in the Sides, however, are more extreme. The figures given point to a population density around 83,000-86,000 people per square kilometer. That's more on the order of a densely-packed slum district like Toronto's St. James Town neighborhood which has 12,000 people living on a mere 1/7th of a square kilometer.
Again, could anyone here look back at the animation and tell me whether there were many high-rises in the colonies? And if it is, could we presume that in the more developed colonies, the people lived in a scenario not unlike that of Singapore?

And that number does not represent all colonies, right, since we have colonies created for purposes such as tourism like Texas?

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