Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

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azrael
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Re: Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by azrael » Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:45 pm

To the OP's question, beyond some explosive ordnance, I can't forsee some other "standard" loadout. The loadout issue resolved itself by the time the Jegan (or the Geara Doga) was introduced (head MG for anti-air, melee weapon, grenade, handheld fiream, shield w/ missiles).
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Re: Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by Seto Kaiba » Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:43 pm

MythSearcher wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:17 am
The fun thing is, all of the standard issue MS don't use this kind of E-pac at all.
[...]
A standard issue E-pac where no standard unit uses, let's add it to another (stupid) mystery of UC.
As if Gundams weren't a logistical nightmare already... you'd swear Anaheim Electronics' CEO had some kind of a grudge against the EFF quartermaster's office.

MythSearcher wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:17 am
EFSF's GM II beam rifle doesn't even look like it has a removable magazine, Nemo uses the same model.
Now THAT one I do have a source for... and yes, the GM II's BOWA BR-S-85-C2 beam rifle is still using an internal e-cap allegedly good for 24 shots. There's a variant of it used by the RGM-79CR that only has half that capacity.


MythSearcher wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:17 am
I guess if the rest of the platoon doesn't use this kind of E-pac, they are just randomly laying on the ship? :roll:
That's even worse... stocking a mountain of nonstandard e-packs for a mobile suit that treats them as disposable and expends an entire one every time it fires.
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Re: Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by MythSearcher » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:22 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:43 pm
As if Gundams weren't a logistical nightmare already... you'd swear Anaheim Electronics' CEO had some kind of a grudge against the EFF quartermaster's office.
Well, I guess s/he doesn't have to try that hard.
Look at both EFF and Zeon in OYW, just the sheer number of different calibre of MS guns (and also different type of beam guns) is already not very gentle to the quartermasters.

I can kinda accept the non-canon but reasonable assumption in the "Gundam and WWII" book made about GM being like M4s and eventhough parts manufactured in different areas are different and not compatitable to each other but being shipped to respective battlefields so they can still maintain the GMs without much trouble.
The different calibres though, what on Earth are they thinking of. I don't think 90mm, 100mm, 110mm and 120mm are really that much of a difference for MS used guns, the EFF has all of these. They still have to look after the 40mm and 60mm smaller calibres and the 175mm, 180mm, I even suspect they have multiple 120/180mm rounds since the Guntank/Ball cannon rounds might be different from the K type Ball machine gun rounds. Rocket launchers/Bazookas we have 320mm, 380mm in use AND the 360mm rounds of the MS-09 are supposed to be confiscated by the Zeon in the California base so they are(or at least were) also EFF's logistics nightmare.

Zeon isn't much better, 90mm, 105mm, 110mm and 120mm seems to be all pretty common, not to mention the smaller 75mm. I can accept the jump from 105 to 120 on the Zaku machine gun, but when they make the Gelgoog arm guns, can't they just use the 105 instead of making the 110? Or use the 90 since that is the Unification plan's new standard? (both 105 and 120 are slow muzzle speed weapons, at 200m/s class, they are designed for anti-ship and ground units, while the 90 is designed with a much higher muzzle speed for anti-armour/MS so they may not want to use the 105)
Now THAT one I do have a source for... and yes, the GM II's BOWA BR-S-85-C2 beam rifle is still using an internal e-cap allegedly good for 24 shots. There's a variant of it used by the RGM-79CR that only has half that capacity.
That is another thing I have no idea why they do that since they are already using the Mk-II gun based guns pretty effectively, and that is pretty much the only way those E-pacs we are talking about can have a better use, as the mass-production beam rifle for the GM II the CR is testing for.

Which relates us back to this post, I guess my idea is "Standardize them".
That's even worse... stocking a mountain of nonstandard e-packs for a mobile suit that treats them as disposable and expends an entire one every time it fires.
Well, not every time. It only expends the whole thing if it is using max power, it is able to fire shots of lesser power like the Mk-II did and probably that is what it should be doing unless the situation is dire or if I designed it, I will call it anti-ship/MA mode or something.

I thought of a way to slightly rationalize that decision.
Maybe they just produced so many they have to ditch them somewhere and with whatever hazardous material they used in the E-pacs, disposing them by normal means is expensive?

The Zeon remnants had trouble obtaining parts for beam weaponry post-OYW, and thus a large number of MS-14s had to use non-beam weapons, the EFF, eventhough they still want the Zeon around for more budget, don't want them to have a large supply of more powerful weapons.
The Unicorn, afterall, is still fighting for the EFF and thus anything it ditches during combat is more of an EFF problem, not AE's, or at least it seems to be not really AE's reponsibility how EFF uses the weapons, they can always just claims that the pilot/captain/general is responsible for the decision to use that many/not pick them up after the combat/battle/war?

I guess?

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Re: Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by False Prophet » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:29 am

On the topic of beam rifles, anyone here ever wonder why U.C. Delta project transformable mobile suits have such long rifles (except the Re-GZ)? Does it have anything to do with them being used in Waverider mode, or just Anaheim following their original designs of the Delta Gundam and ZZ?

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Re: Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by Seto Kaiba » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:51 am

MythSearcher wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:22 pm
Look at both EFF and Zeon in OYW, just the sheer number of different calibre of MS guns (and also different type of beam guns) is already not very gentle to the quartermasters.
Maybe General Revil was really twenty-six, and all the logistical nightmares the EFF inflicts on its officers daily just aged him prematurely... :shock:


MythSearcher wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:22 pm
That is another thing I have no idea why they do that since they are already using the Mk-II gun based guns pretty effectively, and that is pretty much the only way those E-pacs we are talking about can have a better use, as the mass-production beam rifle for the GM II the CR is testing for.
It may have something to do with the difference in reactor output.


False Prophet wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:29 am
On the topic of beam rifles, anyone here ever wonder why U.C. Delta project transformable mobile suits have such long rifles (except the Re-GZ)? Does it have anything to do with them being used in Waverider mode, or just Anaheim following their original designs of the Delta Gundam and ZZ?
Master Archive Mobile Suit MSZ-006 Zeta Gundam seems to suggest that the large size of the Zeta's beam rifle was necessary to achieve its higher power level of 5.7MW.
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Re: Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by MythSearcher » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:48 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:51 am
Maybe General Revil was really twenty-six, and all the logistical nightmares the EFF inflicts on its officers daily just aged him prematurely... :shock:
Maybe Matilda got her mature looks but is actually younger than Amuro & friends?

It may have something to do with the difference in reactor output.
Don't think so.
79CR has an output of 1390kW, and is using the E-pacs pretty well.
79Q has 1420, Hizack 1428, GM II 1518.
They all have enough output to use the E-pacs.
And it is surely not because they have excess power.
The GP01 has 1790, GP04G 1730, AGX-04 1710, Mk-II 1930, Zeta 2020, Z II 2130, Nu 2980, Unicorn 3480.
False Prophet wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:29 am
On the topic of beam rifles, anyone here ever wonder why U.C. Delta project transformable mobile suits have such long rifles (except the Re-GZ)? Does it have anything to do with them being used in Waverider mode, or just Anaheim following their original designs of the Delta Gundam and ZZ?
Master Archive Mobile Suit MSZ-006 Zeta Gundam seems to suggest that the large size of the Zeta's beam rifle was necessary to achieve its higher power level of 5.7MW.
Also, they seems to still honour to the "longer barrel longer range" to a certain degree.
ZZ's head cannon has really high output but extremely short. It is never depicted to have long range capabilities while most of the longer rifles seems to indicate a longer range than shorter ones.

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Re: Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by yazi88 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:29 am

I noticed that the long beam rifle types of the Zeta/ReZel/Delta Plus as well as the Fedayeen rifle used by the Hamrabi/Marasai/Gabthley can also function as beam sabers...

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Re: Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by MythSearcher » Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:15 am

yazi88 wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:29 am
I noticed that the long beam rifle types of the Zeta/ReZel/Delta Plus as well as the Fedayeen rifle used by the Hamrabi/Marasai/Gabthley can also function as beam sabers...
It's a common feature of the era, Qubeley's short beam sabres can also double as beam guns, with many other examples as well.
The funniest might be ZZ's beam cannons, those are just too big to be wielding like a beam sabre.

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Re: Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by yazi88 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:01 am

Some beam sabers I understand they can double as beam guns but how many are the other way around with rifles that function as beam sabers?

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Re: Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by MythSearcher » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:50 am

yazi88 wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:01 am
Some beam sabers I understand they can double as beam guns but how many are the other way around with rifles that function as beam sabers?
The GP series already have beam guns with beam bayonet stuck on them.
But rifles with sabre function I haven't really go into counting how many are there, it just seems like a common design feature.
BTW, do you consider the ZZ beam cannon/Hyper beam sabre to be sabre double as guns or guns double as sabre?

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Re: Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by yazi88 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:14 pm

Hmm... for ZZ, I consider it to be hyper beam sabers 1st that also function as beam cannons, like how Zeta's beam sabers function as beam guns. I think of the ReZel Commander Type C Defensor A in Unicorn side material where it uses the same Hyper beam saber as the ZZ along with a missile pack, but the hyper beam sabers there do not function as beam cannons, likely due to the high power requirement for it. Ironically the ReZel Type C Defensor A is the opposite of the FAZZ in which the hyper beam saber is omitted but is a fixed beam cannon.

As for the reason for the beam rifle saber (not bayonet extra), I believe they are the same strength as the beam rifle power? Its only a few times we see them being used. Only with the Zeta and the ReZel. But it could be the same case as the beam sabers that double as beam cannons/guns in that the beam saber emitted from these rifles could be set at a lower power level in order to not use as much energy from the reactor since the beam saber stays ignited and would use up quite some power, especially since the Zeta/ReZel don't have the high reactor strength as the heavy fire power units like ZZ and S Gundam along with their variants.

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Re: Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by MythSearcher » Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:06 pm

yazi88 wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:14 pm
Hmm... for ZZ, I consider it to be hyper beam sabers 1st that also function as beam cannons, like how Zeta's beam sabers function as beam guns. I think of the ReZel Commander Type C Defensor A in Unicorn side material where it uses the same Hyper beam saber as the ZZ along with a missile pack, but the hyper beam sabers there do not function as beam cannons, likely due to the high power requirement for it. Ironically the ReZel Type C Defensor A is the opposite of the FAZZ in which the hyper beam saber is omitted but is a fixed beam cannon.

As for the reason for the beam rifle saber (not bayonet extra), I believe they are the same strength as the beam rifle power? Its only a few times we see them being used. Only with the Zeta and the ReZel. But it could be the same case as the beam sabers that double as beam cannons/guns in that the beam saber emitted from these rifles could be set at a lower power level in order to not use as much energy from the reactor since the beam saber stays ignited and would use up quite some power, especially since the Zeta/ReZel don't have the high reactor strength as the heavy fire power units like ZZ and S Gundam along with their variants.

ZZ's hyper beam sabres are officially sabres double as cannons, it is just that at least from Sentinel onwards, S, Ex-S and various units have similar back cannons without the sabre function that makes me wonder.
Also, it looks really stupid to be holding such as a sabre, I mean, the thing's diameter is just ridiculous as a handheld.

Considering S is definitely an upgraded ZZ, I guess Katoki didn't like the idea of the hyper beam sabre? That also explains ReZEL not having that function.

Giving my pure speculation, since the beam sabre has to have a constant output, while the rifle part only need a fraction of a second, it doesn't have to have such a high output design for efficiency reasons.

The support for high power usually means you need more protection for more durability, thus not only using more material, the gun gets heavier and more cumbersome, the longer you have to support that output, the heavier it gets. The MS doesn't have that much generator power to begin with, so you also need to have capacitors to store that energy for a longer higher power output. If you just release more M particles from the E-cap for the power, the E-cap also expends faster, after all, the beam shot only takes fractions of a second to power.

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Re: Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by False Prophet » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:47 am

On a related topic, has anyone here thinks about what a worker MS/MA need to have? I wonder why does some worker models like the Space Pod, the Zaku Tank, and the Works GINN have that clamp-like manipulators instead of five-digit manipulators.

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Re: Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by Kuruni » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:06 am

Space Pod is neither MS nor MA.

Typically, pincer/claw are cheaper and more durable than hand-like manipulator. And IIRC, there's no standard form for Work GINN and each of them are costomized by Junk Guild with whatever they have/need. This is seen when several Work GINNs tried to gang up on Gold Frame Amatsu on a sea platform.
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Re: Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by azrael » Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:46 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:47 am
On a related topic, has anyone here thinks about what a worker MS/MA need to have? I wonder why does some worker models like the Space Pod, the Zaku Tank, and the Works GINN have that clamp-like manipulators instead of five-digit manipulators.
Construction or working MSs definitely don't have a "standard loadout". For civilian-use MS, there should be a standard hardpoint or connection to mount use-based equipment. Using a pincher/clamp vs 5-digit manipulators should open a market for exchangeable-&-universal hand or arm sockets.
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Re: Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by False Prophet » Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:55 am

Kuruni wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:06 am
Space Pod is neither MS nor MA.

Typically, pincer/claw are cheaper and more durable than hand-like manipulator. And IIRC, there's no standard form for Work GINN and each of them are costomized by Junk Guild with whatever they have/need. This is seen when several Work GINNs tried to gang up on Gold Frame Amatsu on a sea platform.
Thanks for the info! Also, does Work GINN have anything other than their Linear Gun, like the DSSD Astray's laser torch?

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Re: Your ideas about a common mass-production mobile suit loadout?

Post by Kuruni » Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:19 am

Well, in the scene above (Astray vol.3 to be specific), one of a Work GINN is armed with a mallet. And there's another one that look like unarmed ZuOOT.
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