Share your Gundam facts!

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yazi88
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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by yazi88 » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:22 pm

Yeah, the Victory Gundam is one of the rare Gundams in UC to be mass produced albeit very limited production. F-91 was the same too, only thing being different was the lack of Bio-computer in the mass produced versions but everything else was the same.

Only other MP Gundams I can think of in UC is the Zeta Plus and Ground Gundams... but also limited production.

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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by False Prophet » Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:30 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:13 am
Mecha anime in general tends not to get into hard numbers when it comes to things like the construction cost and operating cost of "real robot" mecha. I've only encountered one book that ever put a firm number on the cost of a real robot-type mecha... and that number didn't age well.
Show
That was the original Macross Journal Extra Sky Angels VF-1 Valkyrie technical manual. It gave the program cost of the VF-1 as $50 billion, with a $126 million flyaway cost for the initial production type VF-1A. The cost would've seemed extreme to readers back in '84 when the book was published and the average fighter jet cost less than $20 million. By the time the calendar caught up to the show's setting, $126 million was considered quite reasonable for a modern fighter jet and the VF-1 would actually have been cheaper than the F-22A by $24 million.
Naturally, after that first brief flirtation with explicit numbers, they stuck to vague "X many times what it cost to build <other robot>".
What I've read in Master Archive Mobile Suit suggests the League Militaire wasn't a particularly large group... but its operations were spread out across a good chunk of Europe and the Moon, and they were beneficiaries of the technical and financial support of both SNRI and Anaheim Electronics.

From what I've read in Newtype 100% and Dengeki's Entertainment Bible: Zanscare War Vol.1, the LM312V04 Victory Gundam was pretty expensive. Supposedly the League Militaire could only afford to build 20 units worth of parts in total. Versatility was essential because the machines were so expensive and difficult to replace. (You apparently can't have Gundam-like performance without Gundam-like cost.)
Yeah, you have talked about that particular problems with Macross for several times. It does seem to me that beside basic informations like heights and such, mecha designers should not dwell too much into the numbers else they get outdated.

But 20 machines? That does seem like a small number, especially considering how fast did Uso burn through them in the show. Also, do we count the units that shows up in Victory MSV as canon?

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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by False Prophet » Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:32 pm

yazi88 wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:22 pm
Yeah, the Victory Gundam is one of the rare Gundams in UC to be mass produced albeit very limited production. F-91 was the same too, only thing being different was the lack of Bio-computer in the mass produced versions but everything else was the same.

Only other MP Gundams I can think of in UC is the Zeta Plus and Ground Gundams... but also limited production.
There is also the ZZ Mass Production and the Nu Mass Production, too.

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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by DragoMaster009 » Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:58 pm

Don't forget the Z Mass Production. Would the Hyaku Shiki Kai Mass Production count as well?

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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by yazi88 » Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:02 am

I don't think the Zeta MP and Hyaku MP really count as according to their profile they were cancelled after a few units.

I'm not sure if the Nu Gundam mass production type was also a limited run or also cancelled after a few units...

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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by False Prophet » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:47 am

yazi88 wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:02 am
I don't think the Zeta MP and Hyaku MP really count as according to their profile they were cancelled after a few units.

I'm not sure if the Nu Gundam mass production type was also a limited run or also cancelled after a few units...
Since post-0093 Londo Bell has already received a good number of new units to augment their forces--ReZel, Stark Jegan, etc.--so the number of MP Nu Gundam must have been very low.

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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by Dark Duel » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:50 am

From what I can gather, the MP Nu Gundam was cancelled before being actually produced in any meaningful numbers due to its high cost.
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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by E08 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:58 am

yazi88 wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:22 pm
F-91 was the same too, only thing being different was the lack of Bio-computer in the mass produced versions but everything else was the same.
Not really... According to the manuals of the MG and HGUC Gundam F91 (Harrison Maddin color), the MP F91 lacks the full specifications Bio-Computer, so it may possibly have a reduced specification Bio-Computer. Additionally, MP F91 also does not have the MCA armor and its associated MEPE effect. Despite these omissions, on paper, there is no difference in performance between the MP F91 and the prototype F91. The two manuals and that of the MG F91 Ver 2 also noted that MP F91 lack the limit surpassing function of the prototype, though some ace pilot used units managed to replicate the effect via some specification alterations.

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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by yazi88 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:42 pm

E08 wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:58 am
yazi88 wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:22 pm
F-91 was the same too, only thing being different was the lack of Bio-computer in the mass produced versions but everything else was the same.
Not really... According to the manuals of the MG and HGUC Gundam F91 (Harrison Maddin color), the MP F91 lacks the full specifications Bio-Computer, so it may possibly have a reduced specification Bio-Computer. Additionally, MP F91 also does not have the MCA armor and its associated MEPE effect. Despite these omissions, on paper, there is no difference in performance between the MP F91 and the prototype F91. The two manuals and that of the MG F91 Ver 2 also noted that MP F91 lack the limit surpassing function of the prototype, though some ace pilot used units managed to replicate the effect via some specification alterations.
I did not know that, thanks for the info! So its limiter and armor shedding properties that are different in the MP versions from the prototype... aside from the bio-computer..

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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by False Prophet » Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:23 pm

E08 wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:58 am
yazi88 wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:22 pm
F-91 was the same too, only thing being different was the lack of Bio-computer in the mass produced versions but everything else was the same.
Not really... According to the manuals of the MG and HGUC Gundam F91 (Harrison Maddin color), the MP F91 lacks the full specifications Bio-Computer, so it may possibly have a reduced specification Bio-Computer. Additionally, MP F91 also does not have the MCA armor and its associated MEPE effect. Despite these omissions, on paper, there is no difference in performance between the MP F91 and the prototype F91. The two manuals and that of the MG F91 Ver 2 also noted that MP F91 lack the limit surpassing function of the prototype, though some ace pilot used units managed to replicate the effect via some specification alterations.
So does that mean the MP F91 only use the normal Gundamrium armor that has been in use since the last century? I wonder what could have made MCA armor so expensive, because if they can not afford it for the MP F91, then they sure can't with the Jamesgun or the Javelin.

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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by False Prophet » Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:33 pm

Say, does anyone here have a specific date which the idea of miniaturize mobile suits begin taking hold? From what I have read, by the time of Hathaway's Flash (0105 U.C) the number of Gustav Karl being produced had dropped (or had it been always a limited-production units?), and then in 0109 U.C. the Heavygun entered service. And that is not taking into account the Jegan D Type being upgraded into the Jegan J Type, A Type and B Type, which probably happened as mid-life extension programs.

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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by yazi88 » Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:20 am

False Prophet wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:33 pm
Say, does anyone here have a specific date which the idea of miniaturize mobile suits begin taking hold? From what I have read, by the time of Hathaway's Flash (0105 U.C) the number of Gustav Karl being produced had dropped (or had it been always a limited-production units?), and then in 0109 U.C. the Heavygun entered service. And that is not taking into account the Jegan D Type being upgraded into the Jegan J Type, A Type and B Type, which probably happened as mid-life extension programs.
Well... we got the Loto in Unicorn which was also the basis for the F-50D Guntank unit in F-91 as it was pretty small, about 12 meters... and the Loto was also made by SNRI which made the F-91 and F-71 G-Cannon that were also smaller MS.

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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by E08 » Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:22 am

False Prophet wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:23 pm
So does that mean the MP F91 only use the normal Gundamrium armor that has been in use since the last century? I wonder what could have made MCA armor so expensive, because if they can not afford it for the MP F91, then they sure can't with the Jamesgun or the Javelin.
Gundamrium alloy & ceramic composite armor to be exact. No mention of cost in the manual, seems to be more related to the technology being implemented in the prototype F91 as a trial and deemed unnecessary later. Doesn't help that the MP F91 have improved cooling systems, thus removing the need for the MCA's MEPE effect.

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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by MythSearcher » Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:37 pm

I don't know.
Considering GM to be the acronym of Gundam Mass-production, at least RX-78 has been truely mass-produced in-universe.
You can say that it is toned down, but later iterations of GM (e.g. SP, C, N, CR, II, III) do have specs on par or even exceeding it.
(Okay, N is more of the mass-production of NT-1)
Other less noticeable samples being the mass-production of Gamma Gundam(Rick Dias) and Delta Gundam(MP Hyakushiki).
Mass production of Gundam isn't really rare in UC, the rare part is the dual sensor appearance(aka Gundam head) compared to the Visor version(Guncannon/GM head)

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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by yazi88 » Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:52 am

MythSearcher wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:37 pm
I don't know.
Considering GM to be the acronym of Gundam Mass-production, at least RX-78 has been truely mass-produced in-universe.
You can say that it is toned down, but later iterations of GM (e.g. SP, C, N, CR, II, III) do have specs on par or even exceeding it.
(Okay, N is more of the mass-production of NT-1)
Other less noticeable samples being the mass-production of Gamma Gundam(Rick Dias) and Delta Gundam(MP Hyakushiki).
Mass production of Gundam isn't really rare in UC, the rare part is the dual sensor appearance(aka Gundam head) compared to the Visor version(Guncannon/GM head)
I meant more in terms of a Gundam itself being mass produced and still retaining the Gundam name, not a GM one. Although I believe Zeta Plus is still considered a Gundam? I could be wrong...

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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by MythSearcher » Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:11 pm

yazi88 wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:52 am
I meant more in terms of a Gundam itself being mass produced and still retaining the Gundam name, not a GM one. Although I believe Zeta Plus is still considered a Gundam? I could be wrong...
YMMV.
Yes, the plus series (Zeta plus and Delta plus and likely whatever plus in the future) are Gundams in official documentations.
No, a lot of fans have a much much narrower definition of Gundam and only consider the more iconic ones to be Gundam.

I have a friend who insisted only the RX-78-2 is Gundam and no other. (Well, his logic is that all others are [insert name] Gundam and not Gundam [period])

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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by yazi88 » Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:22 pm

Um... I guess I meant being officially labeled a Gundam in its profile and being mass produced and still a Gundam? I didn't think this would be that confusing? Hence I mentioned those types being pretty rare in UC with some notable examples being the Ground Gundam, Zeta Plus, F-91, and Victory Gundams. Limited mass production is still mass production. Its different from a few units being developed then cancelled for MP like the Zeta/ZZ/Nu Gundam MP units.

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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by MythSearcher » Fri Dec 28, 2018 12:20 pm

yazi88 wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:22 pm
Um... I guess I meant being officially labeled a Gundam in its profile and being mass produced and still a Gundam? I didn't think this would be that confusing? Hence I mentioned those types being pretty rare in UC with some notable examples being the Ground Gundam, Zeta Plus, F-91, and Victory Gundams. Limited mass production is still mass production. Its different from a few units being developed then cancelled for MP like the Zeta/ZZ/Nu Gundam MP units.
Sorry, I was being confusing since I was replying during work.

Well, actually I'd say other than officially acknowledged to be mass-produced, one of the limited production models are not really in the real world sense mass-produced.
The Ground Gundam for example, obviously stated it used the leftover parts from the RX series, which are all not mass-production models and assembling the leftover parts from non-production models can hardly be called mass-production. (I recall them being called test production units somewhere, as they are only used to test the production lines and not really mass-produced, but most sources still refer them as limited production units.)

Zeta plus and Delta plus both doesn't retain the Gundam name, so I guess these are also kinda out of the question here.(Delta Gundam didn't even really have an original produced and we only have the modified Hyakushiki anyway)

F-91 might be the only true mass-production unit within these Gundams. (At least it is stated as the high performance model in the high-low mix of EFSF in the plot, and the MG manual actually didn't refer it as limited production)

XM-10/F-97E Flint doesn't get the Gundam naming but at least get the Gundam head and was limitedly produced for both CV and EFSF. It is also toned down, and without the V shaped antenna.

Victory Gundam, fun thing is more recent and first hand documents seems to disregard it as a mass-production model. Encyclopeadia Ver. 1.5, HGUC and MG manuals and box art call it a Multiple MS (Engrish rendition of Multirole as in Multirole fighter or Multiple role, the Japanese translation of the katakana/English of Multiple is 汛用, General-Purpose) while the old 1/100 HG box art calls it a prototype variable form MS. I am starting to even doubt it to be considered mass-produced (even limited) officially. The actual mass-production type is the Gun-EZ.

So yes, I can agree it is pretty rare, to almost no true mass-production that retains the name of Gundam other than F-91.

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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by False Prophet » Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:39 pm

On the topic of Victory Gundam, were all of them just remodeled Gun-EZ, newly-produced models, or a mix of the two? Kind of like the situation between the GM III and Nouvel GM III?

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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by yazi88 » Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:56 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:39 pm
On the topic of Victory Gundam, were all of them just remodeled Gun-EZ, newly-produced models, or a mix of the two? Kind of like the situation between the GM III and Nouvel GM III?

Its the other way around, Gun-Ez is a much cheaper mass production model that is somewhat based on the Victory Gundam. Kind of like the GM to the Gundam. But in that its a mass production model, it does not have any special features of the Victory Gundam like its Minovsky Craft system, compared to the GM that outside of weapons and armor, still had the same tech as the Gundam, outside of the later magnetic coating.

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