Share your Gundam facts!

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False Prophet
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Share your Gundam facts!

Post by False Prophet » Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:02 pm

I feel like a lot of Gundam fans are missing tons of things because they could not read or even access the vast number of written materials. So, maybe we should just come here and share facts about Gundam that interest you, something like how the Gabaldy Alpha was the result of making the Gelgoog on Gyan production line (which I just have learnt recently from another thread).

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Gelgoog Jager
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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:37 am

How about this?:

Despite many indications to the contrary, the RMS-154 Barzam and RX-178 Gundam Mk-II are actually unrelated.

The color scheme was simply the one intended to be used for all Titans machines (which Advance of Zeta retook later on).

The only piece of gear the two aformentioned machines seem to share is an optional head vulcan pod, which is not even the same model. On the other hand, we are told that the Barzam was designed to be able to use the existing weapons of the GM II and Hizack, the EF’s most widely available units at the time,

The Barzam seems to actually have more in common with the GM series, despite its radically different exterior. One of the most interesting bits of information about it is that the cost of producing a Barzam is around 1.5 the cost of a GM II, which would be a quite generous cost performance ratio.

So what exactly is the background for this odd looking MS? Basically the TItans disliked using Zeon-related machines, including the Hizack (essentially a GM & Zaku hybrid) and the Marasai (basically a Hizack built by the Zeon engineers of AE), so they came up with a new mass production model.

But why the went that way? Well the are many theories on how and why the Hizack became the EF’s new mainstay MS, but the one I find more plausible is that the EF simply wanted to reuse the bunch of captured Zeon production lines all around the Earth Sphere. As expected, many of these would be Zaku production lines, so essentially the Hizack is a GM produced in Zaku production lines (sounds familiar?). More importantly, we do know that EF has indeed being producing new Zeon MS, most infamous example the new MS-07H units and other notable case being the RMS-192M.

Supposedly the average EF soldier didn’t mind using captured Zeon MS, which is why the EF was okay with producing the Hizack, but the Titans which were supposed to hunt down the Zeon remnants didn’t like them, but at the time relied on what the EF was producing.

I also want to point out that while the Hizack is sometimes regarded as a worse MS than it’s cotemporaries due to being unable to drive two beam weapons at the time. But it’s also worth noting that the Hizack was essentially a response to Zeon remnants who were still using outdated OYW, sometimes poorly maintened. Incidentally the Zaku series in particular was the most common type of MS used by these remnants since they were machines that could easily be kept functional with little maintenance and thanks to an abundance of spare parts from downed machines available for repairs.

I think the Hizack kept some of these traits which made it a desirable choice as a mainstay machine, and despite the compromises on the generator and Zaku-based design, these also likely kept costs down, providing a logistical advantage that would further justify the EF’s decision to adopt it and mass produce it in huge quantities, ultimately becoming the only mass production MS that both the regular EF forces and Titans use in high numbers, to the point that each had their own color scheme for it.

But enough of the Hizack, and back to the Barzam.

I recall that Mark once pointed out that the odd design of the Barzam was likely the result of trying to simplify the complex & costly designs of the Titans newer MS, including their transformable machines. Such approach do seems to become a trend overtime, as we see with units such as the Byarlant, a flight capable MS that doesn’t need a complex & costly transformation system, and the Hambrabi, which is basically a successor to the Gabthley, but using a far much simpler trabsformstion system to make it more suitable now for mass production. Add the aforementioned cost of the Barzam being just 1.5 times that of a GM II and it does seem that the Titans realized that they couldn’t keep relying on their expensive and scarce experimental units, specially in mid-war with the AEUG.

Compared to its AEUG counterpart, the MSA-003 Nemo (itself a replacement for the MSA-002/RMS-108 Marasai, the best mass produced MS from the Gryps War that nobody wants, a topic for another time), the Barzam is quite similar: both have around the same generator output and weight to thrust ratios, they were both meant to be able to use the equipment of the GM II as a cost-saving measure and both are considered better than the GM II and Hizack.

The main difference lies in the armor material: the Barzam uses the same Gundarium Gamma Alloy as most newer Gryps era MS, while the Nemo uses older Gundarium Beta, which is basically the same material from the OYW, which isn’t as good, but it’s cheaper. Oddly enough, the Barzam has a higher empty weight than the Nemo despite using the lighter Gundarium Gamma, so perhaps the Barzam has other advantages we are not seeing such as thicker armor, which could justify the lack of a shield.

Lastly I will just add that I still suspect that the RGM-86R likely started its development on UC 0086 as its model number seems to imply, but for whatever reason was held back until UC 0088. My best guess is that the machine was first conceived as an improvement over the GM II, but since it was meant as an upgrade over existing units (much like the RGM-79R units are supposedly labeled as such since they are literally upgraded OYW GMs, unlike the RMS-179 units which are brand new machines), it would end with only partial Gundarium Gamma armor, so the Titans went with the Barzam instead.

Fast forward, a new MS is needed after the Gryps War, which resulted in the lost of most of the EF’s new machines, so the project to update the old GM IIs is restarted, though now adding data from the RX-178. The armor compromise remains, with Gundarium Gamma only being used for protecting key areas. Incidentally the GM III became what the Barzam is commonly claimed to be: a machine based on the RX-178.

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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by False Prophet » Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:50 am

Gelgoog Jager wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:37 am
How about this?:

Despite many indications to the contrary, the RMS-154 Barzam and RX-178 Gundam Mk-II are actually unrelated.

The color scheme was simply the one intended to be used for all Titans machines (which Advance of Zeta retook later on).

The only piece of gear the two aformentioned machines seem to share is an optional head vulcan pod, which is not even the same model. On the other hand, we are told that the Barzam was designed to be able to use the existing weapons of the GM II and Hizack, the EF’s most widely available units at the time,

The Barzam seems to actually have more in common with the GM series, despite its radically different exterior. One of the most interesting bits of information about it is that the cost of producing a Barzam is around 1.5 the cost of a GM II, which would be a quite generous cost performance ratio.

So what exactly is the background for this odd looking MS? Basically the TItans disliked using Zeon-related machines, including the Hizack (essentially a GM & Zaku hybrid) and the Marasai (basically a Hizack built by the Zeon engineers of AE), so they came up with a new mass production model.

But why the went that way? Well the are many theories on how and why the Hizack became the EF’s new mainstay MS, but the one I find more plausible is that the EF simply wanted to reuse the bunch of captured Zeon production lines all around the Earth Sphere. As expected, many of these would be Zaku production lines, so essentially the Hizack is a GM produced in Zaku production lines (sounds familiar?). More importantly, we do know that EF has indeed being producing new Zeon MS, most infamous example the new MS-07H units and other notable case being the RMS-192M.

Supposedly the average EF soldier didn’t mind using captured Zeon MS, which is why the EF was okay with producing the Hizack, but the Titans which were supposed to hunt down the Zeon remnants didn’t like them, but at the time relied on what the EF was producing.

I also want to point out that while the Hizack is sometimes regarded as a worse MS than it’s cotemporaries due to being unable to drive two beam weapons at the time. But it’s also worth noting that the Hizack was essentially a response to Zeon remnants who were still using outdated OYW, sometimes poorly maintened. Incidentally the Zaku series in particular was the most common type of MS used by these remnants since they were machines that could easily be kept functional with little maintenance and thanks to an abundance of spare parts from downed machines available for repairs.

I think the Hizack kept some of these traits which made it a desirable choice as a mainstay machine, and despite the compromises on the generator and Zaku-based design, these also likely kept costs down, providing a logistical advantage that would further justify the EF’s decision to adopt it and mass produce it in huge quantities, ultimately becoming the only mass production MS that both the regular EF forces and Titans use in high numbers, to the point that each had their own color scheme for it.

But enough of the Hizack, and back to the Barzam.

I recall that Mark once pointed out that the odd design of the Barzam was likely the result of trying to simplify the complex & costly designs of the Titans newer MS, including their transformable machines. Such approach do seems to become a trend overtime, as we see with units such as the Byarlant, a flight capable MS that doesn’t need a complex & costly transformation system, and the Hambrabi, which is basically a successor to the Gabthley, but using a far much simpler trabsformstion system to make it more suitable now for mass production. Add the aforementioned cost of the Barzam being just 1.5 times that of a GM II and it does seem that the Titans realized that they couldn’t keep relying on their expensive and scarce experimental units, specially in mid-war with the AEUG.

Compared to its AEUG counterpart, the MSA-003 Nemo (itself a replacement for the MSA-002/RMS-108 Marasai, the best mass produced MS from the Gryps War that nobody wants, a topic for another time), the Barzam is quite similar: both have around the same generator output and weight to thrust ratios, they were both meant to be able to use the equipment of the GM II as a cost-saving measure and both are considered better than the GM II and Hizack.

The main difference lies in the armor material: the Barzam uses the same Gundarium Gamma Alloy as most newer Gryps era MS, while the Nemo uses older Gundarium Beta, which is basically the same material from the OYW, which isn’t as good, but it’s cheaper. Oddly enough, the Barzam has a higher empty weight than the Nemo despite using the lighter Gundarium Gamma, so perhaps the Barzam has other advantages we are not seeing such as thicker armor, which could justify the lack of a shield.

Lastly I will just add that I still suspect that the RGM-86R likely started its development on UC 0086 as its model number seems to imply, but for whatever reason was held back until UC 0088. My best guess is that the machine was first conceived as an improvement over the GM II, but since it was meant as an upgrade over existing units (much like the RGM-79R units are supposedly labeled as such since they are literally upgraded OYW GMs, unlike the RMS-179 units which are brand new machines), it would end with only partial Gundarium Gamma armor, so the Titans went with the Barzam instead.

Fast forward, a new MS is needed after the Gryps War, which resulted in the lost of most of the EF’s new machines, so the project to update the old GM IIs is restarted, though now adding data from the RX-178. The armor compromise remains, with Gundarium Gamma only being used for protecting key areas. Incidentally the GM III became what the Barzam is commonly claimed to be: a machine based on the RX-178.
Hmm... How different is the Barzam's frame to the Gundam Mk.II's, then? What you said about the two machines are unrelated kind of make sense if you take what Anaheim Labatory Log said is true - the Mk.II's frame was too complex and expensive (the Mk.III, it said, was developed to rectify that specific problem.) So that would be logical if they choose to design the Barzam - a machine developed and produced when the Titans desperately needed more MS to fit the holes in their force - on a different path to the Mk.II.

Then, the Refined Barzam. How should we take on it? Was it an actual mid-life improvement over the original, or simply a way to increase the compatibility between the Barzam design and existing GM III parts in stock?

Also, was the original form of the GM III development program the standard RGM-86R or the Nouvel GM III? One thing I found interesting is between the GM III, the Nouvel GM III, and the new GM III Powered, they kept trying to upgrade the RGM-86R sensor system.

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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by SonicSP » Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:24 pm

For the record I think this is a brilliant idea for a topic. I love gobbling up manual translations and info but usually they are so spread out.

Anyways, I heard recently that the author of Unicorn novels clarified in a video interview that Unicorn Gundam actually having the ability to manipulate time and did so in the final battle against other mobile weapons. That would be an interesting fact if the assertion is correct.

However I don’t know whether any threads in Mechatalk is discussion that in regards to validity, translations, real/false etc (the usual things the forum does really well)). Was wondering whether anyone have any info about that, one way or the other?

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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by yazi88 » Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:42 pm

I still have a issue of Newtype Magazine which had some interesting trivia about the RX-78-4 Gundam from Encounters in Space and the RX-78NT1 Gundam Alex were both being developed around the same time and their teams had a rivalry against the other. I believe both units were considered the RX-78 unit 4 at the time of development.

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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:07 am

False Prophet wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:50 am
Hmm... How different is the Barzam's frame to the Gundam Mk.II's, then?
It’s actually quite different from most MS, specially the torso and legs:

Firs there's the wide torso with integrated backpack, with the pelvis/crotch section hanging below it. The issue here is that the legs almost seem to be coming out of the upper torso, rather than the crotch area. Technically this is not the case, fi the Robot Damashii model is to be believed:

https://www.gundamkitscollection.com/20 ... -post.html

According to this version the legs are connected at the lower point of the upper torso, and the crotch area is essentially floating below that. This results on the arms of the MS reaching the heigh of the knees when simply hanging down. All thsi combined leads to the impression that the Barzam is some sort of compact MS, despite being the tallest among the Titans mass produced units. And that's not mentioning the AoZ version which outright makes it look like someone slapped the legs of a 1/100 Barzam gunplay into a 1/144 kit:

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/File:Rms-1 ... am-aoz.jpg

This is likely the part that led to the assumption that the Barzam was based on a transformable MS instead of a more traditional MS like the Zaku or GM.
What you said about the two machines are unrelated kind of make sense if you take what Anaheim Labatory Log said is true - the Mk.II's frame was too complex and expensive (the Mk.III, it said, was developed to rectify that specific problem.) So that would be logical if they choose to design the Barzam - a machine developed and produced when the Titans desperately needed more MS to fit the holes in their force - on a different path to the Mk.II.
Despite its odd design, the Barzam supposedly aims at simplicity above anything else, which does sound like the opposite direction of the movable frame as you mention, though it's worth pointing out that the Barzam does use a movable frame, like most MS introduced after the beginning of the Gryps War.
Then, the Refined Barzam. How should we take on it? Was it an actual mid-life improvement over the original, or simply a way to increase the compatibility between the Barzam design and existing GM III parts in stock?
The refined Barzam was basically a design that popped up after the idea of relating the Mk II to the Barzam gained traction. In the end the easiest way to reason its existence could be to assume that it’s the result of producing the Barzam on GM III production lines, perhaps even the unused production lines for the RX-178, though I have come up with a theory on the later that I will cover a bit later. And yes, if the resulting MS did have better compatibility with components form the GM series, that could certainly be a good enough reason for the EF to push towards that direction.
Also, was the original form of the GM III development program the standard RGM-86R or the Nouvel GM III? One thing I found interesting is between the GM III, the Nouvel GM III, and the new GM III Powered, they kept trying to upgrade the RGM-86R sensor system.
Supposedly the only difference between the GM III and Nouvelle GM III is that the former are upgraded from existing GM II units and the later are brand new machines, much like the difference between the RGM-79R (upgraded OYW GMs) and the RMS-179 (brand new GM II units built at Gryps 2).

Talking about this reminded me of a little detail that could shed some light on the origins of the GM III: that the Gundam Mk II was first deployed in December UC 0086. What this means is that if it had used the older EF model designation, its model number would likely have been RX-86, in other words, a precursor for the RGM-86.

At the start of Zeta, the Titans HQ in space is Gryps, the 2nd colony in Side 7. Based on the EF’s new MS model designations, we know that 17 specifically referred to Gryps as the production site for the RX-178 and RMS-179. But considering that the Titans never adopted the GM II among their forces, the later seemed an odd choice. Furthermore, we know that the implication is that this site is producing brand new GM II units, contrary to RGM-79R models upgraded from OYW GMs.

So, what if the actual purpose of having GM production lines at Gryps was to eventually use the data gathered with the RX-178 Gundam Mk II or “RX-86” to use those production lines to upgrade GM II until into RGM-86R GM III or potentially “RMS-179R” units?

That way the model numbers as per the newer RMS designation would be sequential: RX-178 -> RMS-179R.

On another note, the Barzam was developed, or at least finished, in New Guinea as indicated by its model number RMS-154, the "15" being the number indicating the production site. New Guinea became the EF's & Titans HQ after leaving Jaburo. The Jaburo numbers for the RMS models are "18" and "19", as in the case of the RMS-188MD and RMS-192M. I mention this since one of the latest AoZ entries introduced the Titans version of the RMS-154M Aqua Barzam, around in UC 0088:

https://hobby.dengeki.com/aoz/illust/reboot19/

This makes me consider the possibility that the Barzam was first being developed also on Jaburo, but was finished in Kilimanjaro. Considering it already adds the Gundarium Gamma alloy that the Titans had just recently obtained from the Marasai, it makes sense to think that the design wasn't complete before the AEUG's attack on Jaburo.

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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by False Prophet » Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:49 am

Say, beside Gundam lore facts, does anyone here have any interesting facts about Gunpla? For example, I have just recently found out that there was an entire line of 1/220 scale Gunpla by B-Club.

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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by SonicSP » Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:23 pm

Probabaly can’t be done here as Gunpla would fall outside of the Mecha and Technology category section of the board, whereas Gundam mecha facts do not.

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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:02 pm

Here's another one: contrary to what's stated, the AMX-011 Zaku III (at least the standard version) was not the competitor of the AMX-014 Doven Wolf.

The Doven Wolf was rolled out just before the end of the 1st Neo Zeon War, partially based on the captured Psycho Gundma Mk II, which Axis/Neo Zeon continued studying until just before the Dublin colony drop, when they decided to deploy it. On the other hand, the Zaku III was rolled out much sooner, its first appearance being on the background of the parade at Dakar. This particular scene would actually be briefly seen again in Gudnam UC, when Daguza is looking for images showing Minerva Zabi, given that he suspected Adurey Burne. One of the images he sees partially shows a Zaku III, confirming that the inclusion of it at that point wasn't a mistake.

So, when did the Zaku III was actually rolled out then? The old Dreissen model kit manual indicates that both it and the Zaku III were based on old Principality of Zeon models to speed up their development, and it also states that a t the same time MAshymre Cello went to Shangri La, other Zeon ships led by officers like Chara Soon and Rakan Dakaran went to other colonies to gather support for Axis (yet to be renamed Neo Zeon at that point). The important one here is Rakan, who supposedly took with him a prototype Dreissen, which was essentially the same as the standard model, but for a different backpack, depicted in the aforementioned manual:

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/File:AMX00 ... lScan1.jpg

It also used a beam cannon like the one alter seen used by the MS-09H Dowadge Kai (which is another oddity deserving its own discussion).

Anyway, the general idea is for the AMX-009 and AMX-011 being based on OYW models is for them to be developed and finished before the other Axis machines that were being developed form scratch, such as the Gallus J and Zssa. This might have actually been fulfilled based on an obscure piece of info regarding an advance force Haman sent to Earth ahead of the invasion she led herself, which marked posted in another thread:

Actually, the staff notes published in The Anime while ZZ was on the air claim that Haman sent two teams to Dakar as an advance force - the Rein Dragun team and the Louis Bazaar team, neither of which have ever been mentioned anywhere since. These would probably correspond to the two green Endras we see at Dakar and Kilimanjaro.

viewtopic.php?t=14018

The Kilimanjaro Endra is shown after Haman leaves Dakar, showing some of her forces by the Salt Lake, which include an Endra and several Dreissen. The Dakar Endra is the one shown in some scenes in the episode before Haman's Sadalahn arrives to Earth along with its escort ships. It's possible this is the ship in which the aforementioned Zaku III units arrived, which would be consistent with the idea that the Dreissen and Zaku III were produced and deployed ahead fo other prototypes.

So, what about the Doven Wolf's competitor? I'm inclined to think that if a Zaku III model was indeed considered a competitor for the AMX-014, that would have been the AMX-011S, the same model used by Mashymre in the final arc of ZZ, first seen at Side 3 IIRC. As it turns out, the couple of Zaku III units seen among Glemy's forces launching from Axis seem to be of the same model, based on a few minor but notable details, such as the upward propellant tanks, and they seem to be carrying the large beam rifle included in the AMX-011S HGUC kit, which Mashymre himself never used. Twilight of Axis seems to give us a slightly different origin story for the first AMX-011S, stated to be a machine Haman prepared for Char. As such we could assume it was mainly intended for very skilled pilots, or even newtypes. It should be noted that Mashymre's AMX-011S might have been equipped with a biosensor or psycommu system.

Either way, given the initial low quality of Axis/Neo Zeon pilots, I would assume that could have pushed back the development of the AMX-011S version until the end of the war, in favor over the standard and likely more rookie friendly AMX-011. By the end of the war, perhaps some decided to give it a second look, at which time the AMX-014 had been completed and proved to be a better machine.

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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by MythSearcher » Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:13 am

yazi88 wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:42 pm
I still have a issue of Newtype Magazine which had some interesting trivia about the RX-78-4 Gundam from Encounters in Space and the RX-78NT1 Gundam Alex were both being developed around the same time and their teams had a rivalry against the other. I believe both units were considered the RX-78 unit 4 at the time of development.
NT-1 is one of the units of the G-4 project, which speculated to be considered a 4th unit for a short time during anime production IRL, which is also around the time frame of M-MSV. The producer claimed it is probably the 9th unit later, likely referencing the M-MSV description of having RX-78-8 under the RX-78-7 entry.

The G-4 projet was then officially retconned to be a project to create a Gundam for each of the forces of EFF. (EFGF, EFAF, EFN, EFSF), while NT-1 is the EFSF unit.(therefore specialized for space use)
There aren't any confirmed units for the other 3 forces, Gundam Officials mentioned the RX-78XX for the EFGF, and RAG-79-G1 for the EFN, but with some doubt(just like all entries with contradicting data).
The EFAF unit was never revealed, fan speculation place the unit as the RX-78GT-FOUR, but that isn't canon. A flight capable MS in OYW is just too advanced in canon anyway.

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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by yazi88 » Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:56 am

Closest thing to a flight capable MS for the Federation in the OYW is the Corvette Booster from MSX that GMs used. Those were also used in Thunderbolt, with added bombs/missiles. I don't know how many units were made or how effective they really were outside of Thunderbolt.

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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by MythSearcher » Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:44 am

yazi88 wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:56 am
Closest thing to a flight capable MS for the Federation in the OYW is the Corvette Booster from MSX that GMs used. Those were also used in Thunderbolt, with added bombs/missiles. I don't know how many units were made or how effective they really were outside of Thunderbolt.
Well, the problem is that those are still only considered as SFS, just like the Dodai YS.
If you consider that, the Lightliner, also from MS-X (and appeared in Gundam Legacy, is also one of the candidates.

Currently only the GT-FOUR manga has anything reassembling a flight capable MS in OYW, but TMS in OYW is just way beyond what is considered canon.
The design of the RX-78E is pretty cool though.

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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by False Prophet » Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:19 am

Gelgoog Jager wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:02 pm
Here's another one: contrary to what's stated, the AMX-011 Zaku III (at least the standard version) was not the competitor of the AMX-014 Doven Wolf.

The Doven Wolf was rolled out just before the end of the 1st Neo Zeon War, partially based on the captured Psycho Gundma Mk II, which Axis/Neo Zeon continued studying until just before the Dublin colony drop, when they decided to deploy it. On the other hand, the Zaku III was rolled out much sooner, its first appearance being on the background of the parade at Dakar. This particular scene would actually be briefly seen again in Gudnam UC, when Daguza is looking for images showing Minerva Zabi, given that he suspected Adurey Burne. One of the images he sees partially shows a Zaku III, confirming that the inclusion of it at that point wasn't a mistake.

So, when did the Zaku III was actually rolled out then? The old Dreissen model kit manual indicates that both it and the Zaku III were based on old Principality of Zeon models to speed up their development, and it also states that a t the same time MAshymre Cello went to Shangri La, other Zeon ships led by officers like Chara Soon and Rakan Dakaran went to other colonies to gather support for Axis (yet to be renamed Neo Zeon at that point). The important one here is Rakan, who supposedly took with him a prototype Dreissen, which was essentially the same as the standard model, but for a different backpack, depicted in the aforementioned manual:

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/File:AMX00 ... lScan1.jpg

It also used a beam cannon like the one alter seen used by the MS-09H Dowadge Kai (which is another oddity deserving its own discussion).

Anyway, the general idea is for the AMX-009 and AMX-011 being based on OYW models is for them to be developed and finished before the other Axis machines that were being developed form scratch, such as the Gallus J and Zssa. This might have actually been fulfilled based on an obscure piece of info regarding an advance force Haman sent to Earth ahead of the invasion she led herself, which marked posted in another thread:

Actually, the staff notes published in The Anime while ZZ was on the air claim that Haman sent two teams to Dakar as an advance force - the Rein Dragun team and the Louis Bazaar team, neither of which have ever been mentioned anywhere since. These would probably correspond to the two green Endras we see at Dakar and Kilimanjaro.

viewtopic.php?t=14018

The Kilimanjaro Endra is shown after Haman leaves Dakar, showing some of her forces by the Salt Lake, which include an Endra and several Dreissen. The Dakar Endra is the one shown in some scenes in the episode before Haman's Sadalahn arrives to Earth along with its escort ships. It's possible this is the ship in which the aforementioned Zaku III units arrived, which would be consistent with the idea that the Dreissen and Zaku III were produced and deployed ahead fo other prototypes.

So, what about the Doven Wolf's competitor? I'm inclined to think that if a Zaku III model was indeed considered a competitor for the AMX-014, that would have been the AMX-011S, the same model used by Mashymre in the final arc of ZZ, first seen at Side 3 IIRC. As it turns out, the couple of Zaku III units seen among Glemy's forces launching from Axis seem to be of the same model, based on a few minor but notable details, such as the upward propellant tanks, and they seem to be carrying the large beam rifle included in the AMX-011S HGUC kit, which Mashymre himself never used. Twilight of Axis seems to give us a slightly different origin story for the first AMX-011S, stated to be a machine Haman prepared for Char. As such we could assume it was mainly intended for very skilled pilots, or even newtypes. It should be noted that Mashymre's AMX-011S might have been equipped with a biosensor or psycommu system.

Either way, given the initial low quality of Axis/Neo Zeon pilots, I would assume that could have pushed back the development of the AMX-011S version until the end of the war, in favor over the standard and likely more rookie friendly AMX-011. By the end of the war, perhaps some decided to give it a second look, at which time the AMX-014 had been completed and proved to be a better machine.
The idea of the first Zaku III Custom gives me pause - How much faith did Haman have on the possibility of Char coming back to her folds? Her actions in Zeta seems to me like she did put some stock to the idea (which was almost delusional, considering Haman had a hand in killing Char's unborn child) but abandoned the idea before Operation Maelstorm. So when did the first AMX-011S was created, then?

And then there was the question of why did Arlette Almage created that red Zaku III Custom in Twilight Axis when Char already had got the custom MSK-008 Dijeh a few years prior (Are we still considering the Dijeh SE-R canon? And does anyone spots any possible visual connection between the Dijeh SE-R and the Rick Dijeh?)

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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by SonicSP » Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:28 am

So it seems that Gundam Narrative novelization notes that Gundam Unicorn did turn back time in the final Unicorn episode by making all the other MS’ reactors revert back to their pre-processed state and made them stop working. Which seems to corroborate what the Unicorn novel author supposedly said in that video interview I linked earlier in the previous post.

So yeah Gundam Unicorn has the ability to reverse time. That might make it up there among the strongest MS in the franchise under certain circumstances.

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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:39 am

False Prophet wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:19 am
The idea of the first Zaku III Custom gives me pause - How much faith did Haman have on the possibility of Char coming back to her folds? Her actions in Zeta seems to me like she did put some stock to the idea (which was almost delusional, considering Haman had a hand in killing Char's unborn child) but abandoned the idea before Operation Maelstorm. So when did the first AMX-011S was created, then?

And then there was the question of why did Arlette Almage created that red Zaku III Custom in Twilight Axis when Char already had got the custom MSK-008 Dijeh a few years prior (Are we still considering the Dijeh SE-R canon? And does anyone spots any possible visual connection between the Dijeh SE-R and the Rick Dijeh?)
Well, even during her final battle with Char, after she had crippled the Hyaku Shiki, Haman offered him yet again to join her. Char's answer was firing his vulcans at a short circuit that destroyed the ship where they had landed. Also, IIRC in ZZ she still have delusions, such as imagining that one her aides is actually Char when he looks at him from behind. So I'm pretty sure that she was very convinced that she could bring Char back to her side.

I haven't finished reading CDA and Twilight of Axis, so i can't really comment much more on the matter.

As to when the first AMX-011S could advice been created, I've pointed out that the AMX-011 Zaku III and the AMX-009 Dreissen might have been completed earlier than other Axis prototypes, given that such was the reasoning for basing them on old Principality of Zeon models. In the particular case of the AMX-011, it was originally envisioned as a very modular multipurpose MS, and in theory the AMX-011S would have been the result of modifying an AMX-011 with optional parts that further improved its mobility. For reference, check the picture gallery of the wikia:

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/AMX-011_Zaku_III

Among its options, the Zaku III was meant to have 3 different optional heads, 2 skirt weapon options (3 if we include UC's sub-arms), several backpack options, an optional skirt booster, and supposedly even a funnel container. On of the shoulder spike armor also was supposed to have a latch for equipping the same shield used by the Hamma Hamma. Also, at one point during the early development of Gundam ZZ as a series, instead of the MS-06D Desert Zaku and RMS-192M Zaku Mariner, there would have been desert & amphibious version of the AMX-011.

Still, the fact that in ZZ we only see two types of Zaku III, the standard version being the one most widely seen, and the S-type that is used by Mashymre, with two more units seen among Glemy's forces, is what makes me consider that the AMX-011S was meant as a standardized version of the AMX-011 with focus on high performance, or rather high mobility in space. After all, by the end of ZZ the AMX-006 Gaza D has already replaced the AMX-003 Gaza C as the mainstay MS of the Neo Zeon forces in space, so Neo Zeon working on a better version of a machine that was rolled out early during the conflict doesn't sound so farfetched, specially one whose modular nature would allow development to proceed more smoothly and quicker by focusing mainly on optional parts.

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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by False Prophet » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:12 am

Does anyone here have any fact about Project V, like how much test data have the Federation extracted from the prototypes mobile suits before Amuro first stepped into the cockpit?

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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by Seto Kaiba » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:44 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:12 am
Does anyone here have any fact about Project V, like how much test data have the Federation extracted from the prototypes mobile suits before Amuro first stepped into the cockpit?
Shockingly little, from what I've read in Master Archive Mobile Suit: RX-78 Gundam.

That account of the Project V program history puts the rollout of RX-78-1 Unit No.1 on 7 July 0079, with Unit No.2 approximately two weeks later (7/21?). They were apparently shipped out for three days of space combat testing before being transferred to Side 7 for further testing and upgrade to the RX-78-2 specification, where they stayed until the Zeon attack on 18 September. Assuming testing started the day after delivery and continued until a day before they were to be delivered to the White Base, the maximum testing interval was 71 days... and since there was transit time from the initial test site to Side 7 AND downtime for the Spec2 upgrade they had even less time than that.
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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by BrentD15 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:32 pm

SonicSP wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:24 pm
For the record I think this is a brilliant idea for a topic. I love gobbling up manual translations and info but usually they are so spread out.

Anyways, I heard recently that the author of Unicorn novels clarified in a video interview that Unicorn Gundam actually having the ability to manipulate time and did so in the final battle against other mobile weapons. That would be an interesting fact if the assertion is correct.

However I don’t know whether any threads in Mechatalk is discussion that in regards to validity, translations, real/false etc (the usual things the forum does really well)). Was wondering whether anyone have any info about that, one way or the other?
I never really got the impression that the Unicorn Gundam was "manipulating time" during my watch of the OVA. It seemed more like it was just passing through time in its own little bubble, but I guess manipulating time would be required to do that?
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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by False Prophet » Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:56 am

Does anyone here have any information regarding the strength of the League Militaire, or the expense needed to product and maintain their mobile suits? From watching the show, I have the impression that their mobile suits, especially the Victory Gundam, were designed to be cheap yet also versatile and performing adequately. Can we suppose that this philosophy is implemented not just because of the nature of their war, but also because their sponsor, Anaheim Electronics, had entered a phase of decline at this period of time?

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Re: Share your Gundam facts!

Post by Seto Kaiba » Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:13 am

False Prophet wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:56 am
Does anyone here have any information regarding the strength of the League Militaire, or the expense needed to product and maintain their mobile suits?
Mecha anime in general tends not to get into hard numbers when it comes to things like the construction cost and operating cost of "real robot" mecha. I've only encountered one book that ever put a firm number on the cost of a real robot-type mecha... and that number didn't age well.
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That was the original Macross Journal Extra Sky Angels VF-1 Valkyrie technical manual. It gave the program cost of the VF-1 as $50 billion, with a $126 million flyaway cost for the initial production type VF-1A. The cost would've seemed extreme to readers back in '84 when the book was published and the average fighter jet cost less than $20 million. By the time the calendar caught up to the show's setting, $126 million was considered quite reasonable for a modern fighter jet and the VF-1 would actually have been cheaper than the F-22A by $24 million.
Naturally, after that first brief flirtation with explicit numbers, they stuck to vague "X many times what it cost to build <other robot>".
What I've read in Master Archive Mobile Suit suggests the League Militaire wasn't a particularly large group... but its operations were spread out across a good chunk of Europe and the Moon, and they were beneficiaries of the technical and financial support of both SNRI and Anaheim Electronics.


False Prophet wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:56 am
From watching the show, I have the impression that their mobile suits, especially the Victory Gundam, were designed to be cheap yet also versatile and performing adequately. Can we suppose that this philosophy is implemented not just because of the nature of their war, but also because their sponsor, Anaheim Electronics, had entered a phase of decline at this period of time?
From what I've read in Newtype 100% and Dengeki's Entertainment Bible: Zanscare War Vol.1, the LM312V04 Victory Gundam was pretty expensive. Supposedly the League Militaire could only afford to build 20 units worth of parts in total. Versatility was essential because the machines were so expensive and difficult to replace. (You apparently can't have Gundam-like performance without Gundam-like cost.)
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