Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

[toysdream]

Yeah, for the most part it seems physically impossible that mobile suit fusion reactors would actually "melt down" or somehow undergo a nuclear explosion. They do seem to react violently when hit by beam weapons, but the Japanese publications normally claim that's just the propellant, fuel, etc exploding rather than a nuclear phenomenon...

Meanwhile, I'm thinking about the comparison of the Gundam's beam rifle to a warship cannon. Although it's normally said that the beam rifle rivals the destructive power of a warship's main gun (or words to that effect), I agree that this seems unlikely. If we look at the diagrams of the beam rifle and a Musai cannon in Entertainment Bible 1, for example:

http://ultimatemark.com/gundam/images/eb1_compare.jpg

Here, I've also included both weapons in scale, and color-coded some of the key components. Although the E-CAP should logically be much smaller than the Musai's energy condenser (never mind the power connector that runs out the back), the mega particle generator and beam emitter serve similar functions in both weapons, and the beam rifle versions are clearly far smaller. No matter how the particles are obtained, a smaller emitter should produce a smaller beam.

On the face of it, a pure comparison of power outputs - supposedly 1.9 MW for the Gundam's rifle, and presumably something less than 12 MW for the Musai cannon - would be pretty reasonable based on their size. If the Gundam's beam rifle has some kind of "E-CAP discount" which makes its beam output higher than the generator power used to fire it, then it should be a fairly small factor.


One other aside: I've been troubled by the listed output of 1.9 MW for the Gundam's rifle, when the improved version used by the Gundam GP01 is only rated at 1.5 MW. However, in its description of the RX-78 Gundam, Gundam Century reports that "the electrical power consumption of this beam rifle's Energy CAP was 30% higher than originally estimated."

So it's possible that the Gundam's beam rifle was originally supposed to require 1.5 MW of generator power, and the higher output spec is actually an inefficiency which fell short of the theoretical performance. The 1.5 MW output spec of the GP01's rifle, then, would represent the improved efficiency of a fully tested design. The idea that experimental beam rifles have unusually high output specs because they're inefficient makes it very hard to compare beam weapon power, though! It might be easier to assume that the Gundam's beam rifle is simply overpowered.

-- Mark

[Product9]

I always have the POV that the Minovsky reactors don't detonate like a nuclear bomb, its just those not very scientifically minded soldiers and generals who think the explosion from one compression worth of reactant equals to a nuclear detonation.

Thanks Brave Fencer Kirby, MythSearcher and toysdream for replying.

If this is indeed the case, then how can the explosion that blew a hole in the colony in Mobile Suit Gundam be explained? A much more recent example is an RGZ-95 doing similarly in Unicorn.

It it just a quirk that stuck around because of in-universe precedent?

Also:

H3-De fusion reactors

It's helium-3 and deuterium, right? Wouldn't that be He-3 and D?

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

Yeah, for the most part it seems physically impossible that mobile suit fusion reactors would actually "melt down" or somehow undergo a nuclear explosion. They do seem to react violently when hit by beam weapons, but the Japanese publications normally claim that's just the propellant, fuel, etc exploding rather than a nuclear phenomenon...

That seems like an odd claim, given that it's explicitly and only beam weapons hitting reactors that causes problems. I agree that "beam weapons + Minovksy reactors = nuclear explosion" doesn't make much sense from a real-world physics perspective, but I always figured that it's their fictional physics, they can make up whatever rules they want, so if they say that beam weapons hitting Minovsky reactors causes nuclear explosions, then sure, they do.

If it's just ammo and propellant and whatnot that's exploding, though, then why are people only worried about beam/reactor explosions whenever collateral damage is a concern? Explosive weapons can cause ammo and fuel to explode just as well as beam weapons, and causing a reactor breach (and thus venting plasma all over the place) would seem to be just as dangerous regardless of whether you use beam weapons to do it or not. And yet, things like shotlancers exist specifically because they don't run the risk of causing an explosion if they hit a target's reactor.

[toysdream]

This seems to be one of those things that's pretty clear from the animation and yet denied by the Japanese publications. Kind of like how the Nu Gundam's fin funnels obviously form a physical barrier (basically an early version of the beam shield) and yet the published sources insist that it's just a regular I-field, and the only reason the Alpha Azieru's funnels physically bounce off it is because it also has a unique psycho-wave-repelling function.

-- Mark

[Product9]

Sort of skimming around and noticed this:

The answer comes out to 412 days. No wonder people are fairly casual about blasting holes in colony walls! As long as you're not actually near the hole itself and in danger of being sucked out into space (as happened to Tem Ray), a moderately-sized hull breach is definitely a bad thing, but not an existential crisis for the colony.

I believe that was actually covered in the Gundam Unicorn novel series. I still need to finish that... talk about a slow pace.

Also, about the fusion reactors. I find it interesting that Gundam has a lot of cool trivia, but a lot of stuff is left out as well. I read a bunch of different trivia for sci-fi series, and have noticed that each one tends to focus on some things and leave others out. For example, in Gundam it's very easy to find the data about how tall a mobile suit is, but good luck finding its ground speed. In BattleTech, it's very easy to find a 'mech's ground speed, but good luck finding how tall it is.

That said, BattleTech seems to be much more fleshed out in the tech department. Here's an excerpt from Sarna.net's article on the Fusion Engine:

Fusion engines usually will only shut down if damaged or if heat is uncontrolled. Unlike popular belief, there is absolutely no risk of a fusion engine accidentally becoming a nuclear weapon. [17] There have been a number of cases of fusion engines being "over revved" and exploding with devastating force, but this is more akin to a boiler explosion than a true nuclear explosion. More often a destroyed engine will be punctured by weapons fire. Because the plasma is held in a vacuum chamber (to isolate the superheated plasma from the cold walls of the reactor; contact with the walls would super-chill the plasma below fusion temperatures), a punctured reactor can suck in air where the air is superheated. Normal thermal expansion of the air causes the air to burst out in a brilliant lightshow often mistaken for a "nuclear explosion". This thermal expansion damages anything within 90 meters of the destroyed 'Mech.

Such dramatic failures are rare, though. It is difficult to sustain the fusion reaction and very easy to shut down. Safety systems or damage to containment coils will almost always shut down the engine before such an explosion occurs. The massive shielding of the engine (in the case of standard fusion engines, this is a tungsten carbide shell that accounts for over 2/3 of the weight of the engine) usually buys the safety systems the milliseconds needed to shutdown the engine when severe damage is inflicted.

Even if you aren't a fan of BattleTech (I'm not, though I do dabble in MechWarrior), it's worth reading the lore because a lot of the stuff has been really well thought out.

As an aside, Macross seems to have extremely well-fleshed out tech, which is ironic seeing as how hard it is to take a Macross anime seriously. Maybe it's a balance thing.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

This seems to be one of those things that's pretty clear from the animation and yet denied by the Japanese publications.

Well, no one ever claimed that Gundam's technical information all makes sense. I guess this is one of those times where we just have to write them off as crazy and move on with our lives.

I find it interesting that Gundam has a lot of cool trivia, but a lot of stuff is left out as well. I read a bunch of different trivia for sci-fi series, and have noticed that each one tends to focus on some things and leave others out. For example, in Gundam it's very easy to find the data about how tall a mobile suit is, but good luck finding its ground speed. In BattleTech, it's very easy to find a 'mech's ground speed, but good luck finding how tall it is.

I imagine that has a lot to do with the different natures of the franchise. Gundam is an anime, so the visual aspects (like size of the mecha) are pretty nailed down, while BattleTech is a game, so the functional aspects (like land speed) are defined by the rules. The visual aspect is less important to a game, while the functional aspect is less important to an anime, so that's what those respective properties leave out.

[Dark Duel]

Because the plasma is held in a vacuum chamber (to isolate the superheated plasma from the cold walls of the reactor; contact with the walls would super-chill the plasma below fusion temperatures), a punctured reactor can suck in air where the air is superheated. Normal thermal expansion of the air causes the air to burst out in a brilliant lightshow often mistaken for a "nuclear explosion". This thermal expansion damages anything within 90 meters of the destroyed 'Mech.

This is kinda cool, I think. And IMO, it wouldn't take much tweaking to modify that explanation to fit into Gundam tech re; explaining the explosions we see as resulting from, for instance, the beam triggering a reaction relating to the failure of the I-Field that contains the reactor fuel resulting in a powerful thermal explosion, rather than the IMO more scientifically implausible idea that it somehow causes the mobile suit to essentially nuke itself (In the case of UC, that is).

Of course that's based on my own admittedly limited understanding of Minovsky Particle physics and how it relates to nuclear fusion. Someone who knows more may be better able to confirm whether this could be the case.

[Product9]

I imagine that has a lot to do with the different natures of the franchise. Gundam is an anime, so the visual aspects (like size of the mecha) are pretty nailed down, while BattleTech is a game, so the functional aspects (like land speed) are defined by the rules. The visual aspect is less important to a game, while the functional aspect is less important to an anime, so that's what those respective properties leave out.

Makes sense to me. Good observation.

This is kinda cool, I think. And IMO, it wouldn't take much tweaking to modify that explanation to fit into Gundam tech

Unfortunately we still have the problem of mobile suits blowing holes in thick colony walls. But then again, maybe those colonies weren't up to spec and someone should start an investigation into the contractors responsible for such weak walls.

[Dark Duel]

Well, an explosion is an explosion. Regardless of whether or not it's nuclear or thermal, IMO it's not implausible for a powerful explosion to cause damage to the colony wall, especially if the explosion occurs on or very near the surface.

[MythSearcher]

Yeah, for the most part it seems physically impossible that mobile suit fusion reactors would actually "melt down" or somehow undergo a nuclear explosion. They do seem to react violently when hit by beam weapons, but the Japanese publications normally claim that's just the propellant, fuel, etc exploding rather than a nuclear phenomenon...

Meanwhile, I'm thinking about the comparison of the Gundam's beam rifle to a warship cannon. Although it's normally said that the beam rifle rivals the destructive power of a warship's main gun (or words to that effect), I agree that this seems unlikely. If we look at the diagrams of the beam rifle and a Musai cannon in Entertainment Bible 1, for example:

http://ultimatemark.com/gundam/images/eb1_compare.jpg

Here, I've also included both weapons in scale, and color-coded some of the key components. Although the E-CAP should logically be much smaller than the Musai's energy condenser (never mind the power connector that runs out the back), the mega particle generator and beam emitter serve similar functions in both weapons, and the beam rifle versions are clearly far smaller. No matter how the particles are obtained, a smaller emitter should produce a smaller beam.

On the face of it, a pure comparison of power outputs - supposedly 1.9 MW for the Gundam's rifle, and presumably something less than 12 MW for the Musai cannon - would be pretty reasonable based on their size. If the Gundam's beam rifle has some kind of "E-CAP discount" which makes its beam output higher than the generator power used to fire it, then it should be a fairly small factor.


One other aside: I've been troubled by the listed output of 1.9 MW for the Gundam's rifle, when the improved version used by the Gundam GP01 is only rated at 1.5 MW. However, in its description of the RX-78 Gundam, Gundam Century reports that "the electrical power consumption of this beam rifle's Energy CAP was 30% higher than originally estimated."

So it's possible that the Gundam's beam rifle was originally supposed to require 1.5 MW of generator power, and the higher output spec is actually an inefficiency which fell short of the theoretical performance. The 1.5 MW output spec of the GP01's rifle, then, would represent the improved efficiency of a fully tested design. The idea that experimental beam rifles have unusually high output specs because they're inefficient makes it very hard to compare beam weapon power, though! It might be easier to assume that the Gundam's beam rifle is simply overpowered.

-- Mark

If we take the PG manual of RX-78 into account, the beam rifle of RX-78 maybe able to get up to 10MW output.(from p.9 figure with output power against effective range & destructive power)
Which would not be very far off from the 12MW- of your number.

At the same time, I usually assume e-caps give a pretty good multiplication of around 5~20 times of the input power to output power based on this figure, in which also assuming 20X to be quite inefficient in OYW but generally improve after the war with the maturity of e-cap technology. Meaning most of the time we are seeing the rifle at somewhere around 5MW if giving a 1MW input(sounds reasonable when RX-78 normal generator output is at 1.38MW) a 1.9MW wouldn't be to extreme if we take into account of power loss. Considering the yellow parts on the waist armour are condensers which gave RX-78 four times the output(likely for a short burst) of a nomral MS from what Amuro said which I have no idea what "normal MS" he has data to compare to, and the 1380kW data isn't the max output(we do have the nice 10,000HP of the core fighter in the MG Ver. 1.0 manual along with the 1380KW and the 65,000HP in Raport deluxe anyway)

This seems to be the general consenses of the older generation of Gundam fans in the Chinese community, since the kanji word used in e-cap tech is 激発, which kinda means trigger/ignite/start. So people assume the power requirement is dramatically decreased.

If this is indeed the case, then how can the explosion that blew a hole in the colony in Mobile Suit Gundam be explained? A much more recent example is an RGZ-95 doing similarly in Unicorn.

It it just a quirk that stuck around because of in-universe precedent?

I don't think you need that much power to blow a hole in the colony.
I mean, a few hundred kg~ a few tons of TNT is pretty powerful. Come on, look at the 400kg TNT used in Mythbusters blowing up the cement truck, double to triple that, on 2m of loose soil + 10m thick metal wall but pretty much empty structure.

Ok, I must admit the power output of the generator is just less than 1 kg of TNT per second(about 4.2MW) that is why I am very, VERY skeptical to the explosions.

However, the beam weapons themselves are not that powerful, maybe 2~20kg of TNT pwer second even for pertty high powered ones, most are just around 1~2kg, and these seems to be pretty risky for the colony anyway. And I don't know about others, I think the ship cannons are able to puncture the colonies quite easily, and those are like 12MW-, or less than 3kg TNT per second?

So my guess is VERY weak colony walls, not very powerful explosion.

That seems like an odd claim, given that it's explicitly and only beam weapons hitting reactors that causes problems. I agree that "beam weapons + Minovksy reactors = nuclear explosion" doesn't make much sense from a real-world physics perspective, but I always figured that it's their fictional physics, they can make up whatever rules they want, so if they say that beam weapons hitting Minovsky reactors causes nuclear explosions, then sure, they do.

If it's just ammo and propellant and whatnot that's exploding, though, then why are people only worried about beam/reactor explosions whenever collateral damage is a concern? Explosive weapons can cause ammo and fuel to explode just as well as beam weapons, and causing a reactor breach (and thus venting plasma all over the place) would seem to be just as dangerous regardless of whether you use beam weapons to do it or not. And yet, things like shotlancers exist specifically because they don't run the risk of causing an explosion if they hit a target's reactor.

Like I said, the fictional physics doesn't support that as well, and they never seemed to have made up the rule of nuclear explosion.

On the other hand, UC have 360mm rockets that can sink a Cruiser class in one shot, hmmm, I mean, beam weapon outputs and colony walls and MS exploding causing a small hole suddenly sounds much more realistic...

This seems to be one of those things that's pretty clear from the animation and yet denied by the Japanese publications. Kind of like how the Nu Gundam's fin funnels obviously form a physical barrier (basically an early version of the beam shield) and yet the published sources insist that it's just a regular I-field, and the only reason the Alpha Azieru's funnels physically bounce off it is because it also has a unique psycho-wave-repelling function.

-- Mark

While the Big Zam I-Field does give us most of the effects including a solid shield (beam scattaring and forming some invisible dome), an absorbing field(beam plain disappears), a deflection field(beam bounces off to other direction), energy turning field(beam becoming lightning like and runs through surface of unit) and defusion field(beam scattars towards unit instead of forming dome) so Nu Gundam's FF field forming a physical barrier can still be an I-Field.

This is actually quite strange.
Encyclopaedia Ver. 1.5 does say I-Field Generator, MG manual said that the I-Field Generator for the Mega particle degeneracy exists anyway and since the one on the Fin Funnel is an open type, it can be utilized as a barrier. While the HG manual only said 3 FFs can form a Beam Barrier, the EB MS Encyclopedia states the using Amuro's idea, the I-Field generator(generator in kanji instead of katakana) on the FFs are utilized to form a barrier against beams.
The best description I've seen actually comes from the not very official source, Super Robot Wars F Final and alpha, which states clearly(much more detail than the official sources I listed up there) that it is not really an I-Field Barrier, but a primitive version of a beam shield(by releasing the M particles in the e-caps to fill the I-Field generated) BUT the ability is nonetheless called I-Field in the game. :P

Anyway, calling it an I-Field is not technically incorrect, since fundamentally it does generate an I-Field lattice. Most of the time I'd rather call it a FF Field though.

I imagine that has a lot to do with the different natures of the franchise. Gundam is an anime, so the visual aspects (like size of the mecha) are pretty nailed down, while BattleTech is a game, so the functional aspects (like land speed) are defined by the rules. The visual aspect is less important to a game, while the functional aspect is less important to an anime, so that's what those respective properties leave out.

I like how Gundam handles this with the W TV and OVA, you can basically think of the visual parts as documentary films by different people from the future, and not the real time account of the events, thus the visual aspects are not really fixed, but interpreted differently by different directors.(I'd imagine someone like David Attenborough narrating "This, is the habitat of a Haro, fasinating to see it hopping joyously around its parasitic host, in this particular case, Amuro Ray..." and in the making of stating how it was filmed by capturing both the Haro and the host separately from the wild for the best scene possible, in 3D)

[Dark Duel]

Considering the yellow parts on the waist armour are condensers which gave RX-78 four times the output(likely for a short burst) of a nomral MS from what Amuro said which I have no idea what "normal MS" he has data to compare to, and the 1380kW data isn't the max output(we do have the nice 10,000HP of the core fighter in the MG Ver. 1.0 manual along with the 1380KW and the 65,000HP in Raport deluxe anyway)

I can't speak for the original series/movies, as I've never seen the former and haven't watched the latter in years.
But in The Origin(manga), IIRC Amuro tripped across technical data on the MS-06 Zaku II in his dad's files around the same time he stumbled onto the RX-78 data.

[toysdream]

On comparing E-CAP weapons to standard mega particle cannons:

If we take the PG manual of RX-78 into account, the beam rifle of RX-78 maybe able to get up to 10MW output.(from p.9 figure with output power against effective range & destructive power)
Which would not be very far off from the 12MW- of your number.

I've been thinking about that diagram, and I don't think it's really helpful. It's actually labeled as "Input Voltage (入力電圧) Versus Effective Range"; the fact that the x-axis is labeled with "10 Mw" implies they actually mean electrical power, but in any case it's talking abut the input rather than the power of the resulting beam. The chart is interesting in that it supports other published claims that the beam rifle can retain its maximum strength up to about 20 km (with an effective range of about 10 km), but the numbers seem pretty weird.

In any case, equating a 2 MW E-CAP weapon to a 10 MW mega particle cannon - in other words, a five-fold multiplier - seems too generous. Surely that multiplier has to be less than 3.2. Otherwise, the 4.8 MW "generator output" of the Gundam GP01's prototype beam rifle - which is connected to the mobile suit's generator, and thus converts the generator power directly to beam output - would make it weaker than the 1.5 MW regular beam rifle. And the Doven Wolf's 12.5 MW beam rifle would be stronger than its 40.2 MW mega launcher mode.

If I had to guess at a suitable multiplier for E-CAP power input to beam output, I suspect it would be closer to a factor of two. In particular, I've been playing with a factor of 2.25 (for a couple of reasons related to Gundam Sentinel and the 0083 drama CD) but that's still pure speculation at this point.


As for the "more than fivefold energy gain" (五倍以上のエネルギーゲイン) that Amuro remarks on when he first activates the Gundam, almost 40 years have passed since that episode aired, and still nobody in the world really knows what the hell he means. It's not reasonable that he's comparing it to the Zaku, and he can't be talking about the beam rifle since the Gundam doesn't have one at that point. My personal theory is that he's comparing the Gundam's total output to that of the disconnected Core Fighter - the original specs from Sunrise gave the Core Fighter an output of 12,000 HP and the Gundam an output of 65,000 HP, a little more than five times - but who knows?


Meanwhile, I've been going through all my Gundam books again for fresh insights on this topic, and I found something interesting in the old Rapport Deluxe book on First Gundam. A lot of the mobile suit drawings have labeled parts in this book, and the modules on the Gelgoog's forearms - which are normally identified as jet engines - are described as "auxiliary power condensers to drive beam weapons". Since recent sources have claimed that the Gelgoog's arms have energy conduits to send Minovsky particles to its beam weapons, so they can be recharged while handheld, it makes sense that there'd be some kind of storage device there - especially for use with E-CAP weapons, whose particles need to be compressed to a high density before being stored in the E-CAP.

In fact, if you think about it, virtually every Gelgoog and Galbaldy variation that uses E-CAP weapons has these forearm units. The Gelgoog Jaeger and Ground Type, which use prototype condenser-based beam rifles, don't have them; nor does the Gelgoog Marine, which has no beam rifle at all. The Gelgoog Cannon is sometimes shown with a buckler shield and missile launcher instead of forearm units, but - at least in the old MSV art - it always has the forearm units when it's carrying a beam rifle. The only exception to the pattern is Cima's Gelgoog Marine, whose rifle can swap out its energy pack instead. It certainly doesn't seem to have any relation to atmospheric use!


Also in the Rapport Deluxe book, this interesting diagram of MInovsky particle interference effects, and some accompanying text discussion:

http://ultimatemark.com/gundam/images/r ... xe_133.jpg

RADIO WAVE INTERFERENCE

When Minovsky particles are released, they disperse at a velocity proportional to the square of the distance. If dispersal continues at a specific density, a dense Minovsky field is generated around the emitter, making communications impossible within a radius of tens of kilometers. Beyond 100 kilometers, the effect diminishes due to the high speed of dispersal.

When they are dispersed at combat density, 100% of light passes through (without distortion or mirages), but infrared rays are somewhat cut, and it is reported that red hues sometimes become hard to see as well. Particularly noteworthy is that 99% of electromagnetic waves are blocked. Even radiation does not pass through, and the tactical applications of this are being researched.

RADIO WAVE BLOCKING RANGE

When Minovsky particles are dispersed at maximum combat density, not only are radar and guided weapons useless within a 40-km sphere, but wireless communication is impossible even with carrier-based craft flying at point-blank range. Within an 80-km sphere, noise can be heard even in fairly powerful voice communications. On the other hand, since the vessel itself cannot use anything aside from laser communications, Minovsky particles are seldom dispersed during independent action. (A high Minovsky particle density in empty space is evidence that an enemy is present.)

The notion that the ship can't communicate with its own mobile suits, even at point-blank range, is contradicted by the animation. I think the original setting notes may be more accurate when they comment that "communication (including TV images) is still possible at extremely short ranges of ten kilometers or so." In TV episode 2, when the White Base leaves Side 7, it's able to maintain a video link with Amuro while the Gundam is 10 km away - although the dialogue doesn't actually specify that they've dispersed Minovsky particles.

Anyway, the Rapport Deluxe book indicates that "combat density" extends to a radius of about 20 km from the point of dispersal, with some minor interference effects extending to a radius of about 40 km and basically no effect at all past 100 km. This is pretty close to what we see in the chart from issue 02 of Gundam Historica (on the lower right):

http://ultimatemark.com/gundam/images/g ... a02_24.jpg

Here, the y-axis shows Minovsky particle density, with combat density (enough to block radio waves) equalling 100 mf/m^3. The x-axis shows range in kilometers. The three curves show the situation at 20, 120, and 240 minutes after dispersal. As per the caption under the graph, combat density extends to a radius of 25 kilometers as of two hours after dispersal. Though these figures don't quite line up with the Rapport Deluxe ones (depending on the time at which you're measuring the density, I guess), there does seem to be a rough ballpark consensus.

-- Mark

[MythSearcher]

On comparing E-CAP weapons to standard mega particle cannons:
I've been thinking about that diagram, and I don't think it's really helpful. It's actually labeled as "Input Voltage (入力電圧) Versus Effective Range"; the fact that the x-axis is labeled with "10 Mw" implies they actually mean electrical power, but in any case it's talking abut the input rather than the power of the resulting beam. The chart is interesting in that it supports other published claims that the beam rifle can retain its maximum strength up to about 20 km (with an effective range of about 10 km), but the numbers seem pretty weird.

I am to the view that te input voltage meaning more like the actual pressure given to the M praticles.
during the testing of the beam rifle effective range, it may not be using a e-cap at all(since that will be rather inefficient), but just testing the rifle's ability. So if you test it out at that level of power, it should be able to handle and possibly use up to that power.

In any case, equating a 2 MW E-CAP weapon to a 10 MW mega particle cannon - in other words, a five-fold multiplier - seems too generous. Surely that multiplier has to be less than 3.2. Otherwise, the 4.8 MW "generator output" of the Gundam GP01's prototype beam rifle - which is connected to the mobile suit's generator, and thus converts the generator power directly to beam output - would make it weaker than the 1.5 MW regular beam rifle. And the Doven Wolf's 12.5 MW beam rifle would be stronger than its 40.2 MW mega launcher mode.

If I had to guess at a suitable multiplier for E-CAP power input to beam output, I suspect it would be closer to a factor of two. In particular, I've been playing with a factor of 2.25 (for a couple of reasons related to Gundam Sentinel and the 0083 drama CD) but that's still pure speculation at this point.

If we look at the generator specs, that might not be the maximum output, but a general running output. In all sense, as long as you have some kind of capacitor/condensor, you can always store some of the energy and release it in short burst of much higher output.
For example, the 1,380kW output of RX-78 can simply be 65,000HP (about 48.5MW) maximum output. Or, charge up the condensors and at least give you something like 10MW for a really short burst for firing a more powerful beam weapon.

Considering the other mega weapons, this might be the case and those output power might simply be calculated at the same method as the e-cap weapons, only the last triggering power is given.
Another possibility is that the e-cap requires a peak burst, but the mega beam weapons requires a long term charge, thus the power output is averaged throughout the charging.

Listing out sample numbers will be like this:
1.9MW for 0.01s to trigger the e-cap, firing the 10MW beam for 0.1s.
4.8MW for 0.3125s to charge and fire the 15MW beam for 0.1s.

As for the "more than fivefold energy gain" (五倍以上のエネルギーゲイン) that Amuro remarks on when he first activates the Gundam, almost 40 years have passed since that episode aired, and still nobody in the world really knows what the hell he means. It's not reasonable that he's comparing it to the Zaku, and he can't be talking about the beam rifle since the Gundam doesn't have one at that point. My personal theory is that he's comparing the Gundam's total output to that of the disconnected Core Fighter - the original specs from Sunrise gave the Core Fighter an output of 12,000 HP and the Gundam an output of 65,000 HP, a little more than five times - but who knows?

Since those are condensors, it'd be reasonable to say that those are charged up to give short burst of high output. Just like real life EM weapons/armour(Rail gun, EM armour), you charge the capacitors/condensors that give you sudden burst of high voltage and current for a particular task.

If I recall right, Amuro did mention something like Mobile suit, Maybe he is talking about an earlier model? (we all know he hacked through his father's research data)

Meanwhile, I've been going through all my Gundam books again for fresh insights on this topic, and I found something interesting in the old Rapport Deluxe book on First Gundam. A lot of the mobile suit drawings have labeled parts in this book, and the modules on the Gelgoog's forearms - which are normally identified as jet engines - are described as "auxiliary power condensers to drive beam weapons". Since recent sources have claimed that the Gelgoog's arms have energy conduits to send Minovsky particles to its beam weapons, so they can be recharged while handheld, it makes sense that there'd be some kind of storage device there - especially for use with E-CAP weapons, whose particles need to be compressed to a high density before being stored in the E-CAP.

In fact, if you think about it, virtually every Gelgoog and Galbaldy variation that uses E-CAP weapons has these forearm units. The Gelgoog Jaeger and Ground Type, which use prototype condenser-based beam rifles, don't have them; nor does the Gelgoog Marine, which has no beam rifle at all. The Gelgoog Cannon is sometimes shown with a buckler shield and missile launcher instead of forearm units, but - at least in the old MSV art - it always has the forearm units when it's carrying a beam rifle. The only exception to the pattern is Cima's Gelgoog Marine, whose rifle can swap out its energy pack instead. It certainly doesn't seem to have any relation to atmospheric use!

I'd guess those will be a similar function as RX-78's yellow patches.

Also in the Rapport Deluxe book, this interesting diagram of MInovsky particle interference effects, and some accompanying text discussion:

http://ultimatemark.com/gundam/images/r ... xe_133.jpg

RADIO WAVE INTERFERENCE

When Minovsky particles are released, they disperse at a velocity proportional to the square of the distance. If dispersal continues at a specific density, a dense Minovsky field is generated around the emitter, making communications impossible within a radius of tens of kilometers. Beyond 100 kilometers, the effect diminishes due to the high speed of dispersal.

When they are dispersed at combat density, 100% of light passes through (without distortion or mirages), but infrared rays are somewhat cut, and it is reported that red hues sometimes become hard to see as well. Particularly noteworthy is that 99% of electromagnetic waves are blocked. Even radiation does not pass through, and the tactical applications of this are being researched.

RADIO WAVE BLOCKING RANGE

When Minovsky particles are dispersed at maximum combat density, not only are radar and guided weapons useless within a 40-km sphere, but wireless communication is impossible even with carrier-based craft flying at point-blank range. Within an 80-km sphere, noise can be heard even in fairly powerful voice communications. On the other hand, since the vessel itself cannot use anything aside from laser communications, Minovsky particles are seldom dispersed during independent action. (A high Minovsky particle density in empty space is evidence that an enemy is present.)

The notion that the ship can't communicate with its own mobile suits, even at point-blank range, is contradicted by the animation. I think the original setting notes may be more accurate when they comment that "communication (including TV images) is still possible at extremely short ranges of ten kilometers or so." In TV episode 2, when the White Base leaves Side 7, it's able to maintain a video link with Amuro while the Gundam is 10 km away - although the dialogue doesn't actually specify that they've dispersed Minovsky particles.

Anyway, the Rapport Deluxe book indicates that "combat density" extends to a radius of about 20 km from the point of dispersal, with some minor interference effects extending to a radius of about 40 km and basically no effect at all past 100 km. This is pretty close to what we see in the chart from issue 02 of Gundam Historica (on the lower right):

http://ultimatemark.com/gundam/images/g ... a02_24.jpg

Here, the y-axis shows Minovsky particle density, with combat density (enough to block radio waves) equalling 100 mf/m^3. The x-axis shows range in kilometers. The three curves show the situation at 20, 120, and 240 minutes after dispersal. As per the caption under the graph, combat density extends to a radius of 25 kilometers as of two hours after dispersal. Though these figures don't quite line up with the Rapport Deluxe ones (depending on the time at which you're measuring the density, I guess), there does seem to be a rough ballpark consensus.

-- Mark

Maybe at shorter ranges, it is easier to use laser/light communication?
This might be possible since the laser use would have need a larger diameter and output to maintain a detectable opacity, and obviously hard to install a larger and pointable laser of a MS(actually, you need at least 2 considering the orientation) Also quite easy to lose track of the MS during combat and thus it is hard to maintain a high bandwidth communication. On the other hand, a simple 1 direction communication from the commanding ship to at least tell the MSs the location of itself would be easy using laser communication.(like the Thor system IRL, just project a laser grid and the MS/fighters can just keep track of the grid's density and mark the location relative to the ship)

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

Hm, regarding the ambiguity of weapon power ratings -- whether that's input or output power, etc -- do we ever get a rating for the Dom's beam scatter gun? It occurs to me that that would be a good way to check on that. Since the beam scatter gun is a pre-ecap device that isn't run by an overpowered reactor (like the ones in amphibious MS and mobile armors), it's input is presumably roughly on par with the Gundam's beam rifle -- ie, it uses as much juice as your average mobile suit reactor can spare -- but its output would be significantly lower, given that it basically turned out as a highly advanced flashbang rather than an actual beam weapon.

Of course, the real answer is almost certainly "different sources use the numbers differently", because consistency is not one of Gundam background literature's strong points. But it'd still make for an interesting basis of comparison if any numbers exist for the beam scatter gun.

[toysdream]

I am to the view that te input voltage meaning more like the actual pressure given to the M praticles.
during the testing of the beam rifle effective range, it may not be using a e-cap at all(since that will be rather inefficient), but just testing the rifle's ability. So if you test it out at that level of power, it should be able to handle and possibly use up to that power.

In that case, it doesn't really tell us much of anything about the performance of the Gundam's actual beam rifle, making it pretty useless as an information source. (Which is my view of this chart, anyway.) And if we slice and dice the original numbers too much, they cease to mean anything at all - we're just making up new specs from thin air. Which is always an option, since the existing ones are pretty weird, but it's a different kind of project.

The idea that a mobile suit generator can store up electrical charge in some kind of battery or capacitor, and then release it to temporarily boost its output and fire a beam weapon, is pretty obviously the case since the MW outputs for mobile suit beam weapons are usually higher than their listed generator outputs. But presumably they aren't vastly larger or everything would be able to use beam weapons, even a Zaku, and we know that U.C. technology doesn't work like that.

If I recall right, Amuro did mention something like Mobile suit, Maybe he is talking about an earlier model? (we all know he hacked through his father's research data)

No, he doesn't say anything about that at all. All he says before that is 同じだ。こいつか？ ("It's the same. Is this it?") as he compares the Gundam's controls to the manual he's holding. Most of his knowledge about the Gundam seems to come from that manual, and the idea that he'd already seen his father's data appears to be a complete retcon.

Maybe at shorter ranges, it is easier to use laser/light communication?

Possibly, but my impression is that it's hard to maintain a point-to-point laser connection between a ship and a moving target like a mobile suit (even a friendly one). In First Gundam, it seems like it's only used for ship-to-ship communications and for extremely short-range guidance (as with the docking of the Gundam and the G-Armor).

Otherwise, when they talk about short-range communications, it seems like they generally mean radio, which is viable for 10 kilometers or so even under Minovsky conditions. In First Gundam they often use the term "wireless" (無線) which would normally mean a radio communication. For example, in episode 5, Char has to wait until he's completed reentry before he can contact Garma via wireless, and the same goes for the White Base trying to contact Amuro. And in episode 9, where Char has cut off Garma's communications...

Char: He should be able to use the wireless at this range, right?
Zeon Soldier: Yes. The Minovsky particle density hasn't changed, but at this point we should be able to receive audio.

So they're pretty clearly using radio here.

Hm, regarding the ambiguity of weapon power ratings -- whether that's input or output power, etc -- do we ever get a rating for the Dom's beam scatter gun?

Nope, but the (very) old Full Color Model kits listed an output of 1.4 MW for the GM's beam spray gun. That's not far below the number we have for the Gundam's beam rifle, and pretty much the same as the GP01's beam rifle, so clearly it's not getting as much bang for the buck.

-- Mark

[MythSearcher]

In that case, it doesn't really tell us much of anything about the performance of the Gundam's actual beam rifle, making it pretty useless as an information source. (Which is my view of this chart, anyway.) And if we slice and dice the original numbers too much, they cease to mean anything at all - we're just making up new specs from thin air. Which is always an option, since the existing ones are pretty weird, but it's a different kind of project.

Hmmm, I might not have made myself clear enough. I mean the 10MW in the chart has already added the energy from the e-cap, but just that in the test itself isn't really using an e-cap for efficiency purposes.

The idea that a mobile suit generator can store up electrical charge in some kind of battery or capacitor, and then release it to temporarily boost its output and fire a beam weapon, is pretty obviously the case since the MW outputs for mobile suit beam weapons are usually higher than their listed generator outputs. But presumably they aren't vastly larger or everything would be able to use beam weapons, even a Zaku, and we know that U.C. technology doesn't work like that.

I think the problem of the Zaku is that it didn't have the power connectors to do so?
Same goes with the Gouf and Dom.

If you add a power connection system, then the problem is just that if you can build an e-cap with a triggering power low enough for the Zaku to trigger it.

Possibly, but my impression is that it's hard to maintain a point-to-point laser connection between a ship and a moving target like a mobile suit (even a friendly one). In First Gundam, it seems like it's only used for ship-to-ship communications and for extremely short-range guidance (as with the docking of the Gundam and the G-Armor).

Well, I have this impression simply because from Gundam Century, WB has a Espionage missile that is remotely controlled by laser, and has an operating range of 200km.
And newer publication like Unicorn does use laser communication.
I know that at least MS-04 does not have that function from Developers, but the EFF seems to have caught on really fast in M particle warfare from the use of the laser guided missile.

Hm, regarding the ambiguity of weapon power ratings -- whether that's input or output power, etc -- do we ever get a rating for the Dom's beam scatter gun?

Nope, but the (very) old Full Color Model kits listed an output of 1.4 MW for the GM's beam spray gun. That's not far below the number we have for the Gundam's beam rifle, and pretty much the same as the GP01's beam rifle, so clearly it's not getting as much bang for the buck.

-- Mark

In some earlier mentions of the TR-5 Fiver's 20 beam difusion guns has mentioned those are similar to(or maybe even scrapped from) Dom's beam scatter gun, but that idea seems to have complete got erased. Now I can only find mentions of those being powered by multiple e-packs.
But I think the Dom's gun can be powered up to do more significant damage, the reason of it not being to do so is only limited by the power output of the Dom itself since they did not have the e-cap tech at the time.

[PowerdGNFlag]

If I recall right, Amuro did mention something like Mobile suit, Maybe he is talking about an earlier model? (we all know he hacked through his father's research data)

No, he doesn't say anything about that at all. All he says before that is 同じだ。こいつか？ ("It's the same. Is this it?") as he compares the Gundam's controls to the manual he's holding. Most of his knowledge about the Gundam seems to come from that manual, and the idea that he'd already seen his father's data appears to be a complete retcon.

Perhaps people are conflating Amuro with Kamille here? We know for a fact that Kamille did hack through his dad's data.

[MythSearcher]

Perhaps people are conflating Amuro with Kamille here? We know for a fact that Kamille did hack through his dad's data.

It'd be quite impossible for him to not have seen his father's data, his Haro did use parts from the research. (the part his father passed to him saying that will improve the power of Gundam which he threw away actually looks the same as a part of Haro, likely the main computer part, ok, this is retcon or maybe simply an easter egg type of thing but hey)

How much he's gone through is another matter.
He did go through the manual in a pretty fast pace, I must say that I won't be able to do it that fast if I have no idea what the manual is talking about.
I mean, yes, I can probably go through Gundam Officials and find what I want in that pace, since I am fairly familiar with how it lists items and I have at least some basic knowledge of the items so going through it is like a revision.
But if you hand me a similar setting book of the newest robot anime and asked me to find out what's going on and the tech basis of it, that's no way I can do it like Amuro did in the show.

[Gelgoog Jager]

The talk about the Dom's beam spray gun reminded me of the instance in the TV series when one of the units used by the Black Tri Stars fired a beam shot with it. Since in another discussion it was pointed out by Mythsearcher that an explanation do was given for the Ramba Ral's "beam saber", it actually being a heat sword made with memory metal, I was wondering if there could also be a canon explanation for the Dom's beam gun as well?

For instance, if we are certain at this point that the MS-09RS has a higher generator output than a standard MS-09R to supplement the recharge of its beam bazooka, could we consider that such units could also be capable of firing beam shots from their chest beam spray guns? If that was the case, perhaps we could consider by extent that a MS-09BS (or MS-09B3S just for the sake of it sounding unique to the Black Tti-Stars) or similar could exist, which could be able to fire beam shots.

For what it may count, the MS-10 Pezun Dowadge, a MS with little information available, has been depicted in most recent videogames as being able to fire beam shots from its chest beam spray gun (GBO and Side a Stories being the most recent ones) and is also shown operating a Beam Bazooka (in GBO it's the only unit capable of using it). Perhaps the MS-10 is essentially the result of trying streamline the MS-09RS (and a potential MS-09BS).

Since we are also realizing that many Gelgoog beam weapons are actually lacking E-Cap technology even late in the war, it would certainly fit for Zeon to be working on others units capable of using beam weapons while they are still developing beam weapons with E-Caps.

[toysdream]

Hmmm, I might not have made myself clear enough. I mean the 10MW in the chart has already added the energy from the e-cap, but just that in the test itself isn't really using an e-cap for efficiency purposes.

Sure, but that still means that the output specs we have for every other weapon are basically meaningless, and have no relationship to the power of the weapon; only this one mislabeled, unexplained chart from a kit manual contains any useful information. That's kind of an extreme view, don't you think?

I think the problem of the Zaku is that it didn't have the power connectors to do so?
Same goes with the Gouf and Dom.

The Japanese publications have always been very insistent that the Zaku, and other early mobile suits, don't have enough electrical power to run beam weapons. (Obviously they must have power connectors in their hands because they use them to run their heat weapons.) The Gundam, and the Gelgoog, specifically have higher-performance generators for this reason. It says this in virtually every single published source. I could provide cites but it would basically be flogging a dead horse...

As far as Amuro knowing about the Gundam and/or mobile suit technology ahead of time, I think it's pretty clear this is a matter of retcon and fan speculation. Based on the animation itself there's no evidence he knows anything about this before he sees the manual; he recognizes a Zaku when he sees one ("I-Is this Zeon's Zaku?") and when he opens the manual he says "Th-This is a Federation mobile suit..." Not exactly evidence of deep familiarity.

Since in another discussion it was pointed out by Mythsearcher that an explanation do was given for the Ramba Ral's "beam saber", it actually being a heat sword made with memory metal, I was wondering if there could also be a canon explanation for the Dom's beam gun as well?

I don't think we ever found a source for that "memory metal" thing - it may just be fan speculation (so-called "fanon") rather than "canon". As far as the Dom's chest widget, the explanation given in recent kit manuals and publications is that it was originally meant to be an "energy supply terminal" for use with beam weapons, and was later adapted into a blinding device. By this account it was never meant to be a weapon in the first place, but I think if anyone knows how to find new uses for makeshift equipment, it would probably be the Black Tri-Stars.

-- Mark