Unicorn Gundam OVAs Technology Incoherences

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Gelgoog Jager
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Unicorn Gundam OVAs Technology Incoherences

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:11 am

I wanted to share this since I haven't been motivated enough to watch the TV version just to go over the same headaches once more.

I have noticed several incoherences in the technology shown in the UC OVAs, such as how effective some weapons and/or pieces of equipment are in different scenarios, which, in the lack of a better explanation, seem to simply be plot driven:

Shields with I-Fields VS beam swords (Kshatriya's VS Unicorn's)

-In Ep 3 the Unicorn uses its open shield to block a stab from the Sinanju's large beam axes currently stored on its shield. The weapons inquisitions are supposed to be more powerful than your average beam saber. In Ep 6 the Sinanju evenly slices a Jegan shield with the same weapon.
-In Ep 2 the Kshatriya's wing binder, which functions as a thick physical shield and supposedly also has an I-Field, is easily sliced in two by a single beam saber strike from the Unicorn Gundam.
-In Ep 7 we have the worst offender: the Unicorn Gundam forced into standard mode by Angelo's Rozen Zulu's psycho jammer is taken hits from his beam guns, yet the shields of the Unicorn, which have been reversed has closed down and turn down their I-fields, remain unscratched after taking several beams shots.

Explosive defense Gundarium Gamma VS multilayered titanium ceramic alloy (Gaza D VS Jegan ECOAS):

-In Ep3 we watch how an ECOAS Loto destroys an approaching Gaza D with a missile from its arm launcher.
-In Ep 7 we watch how an ECOAS Jegan is truck with 2 missiles from Jegan shield right into the chest, yet only a layer of its armor has been taken out.

Jegan's Shield Beam Coating:

-In Ep 3 a Gaza D fires its Knuckle Buster (8.5 MW) at a Jegan, who blocks it with the lower (and thiner) section of its shield, which right afterwards is seen without a scratch or melted areas.
-In Ep 7 A GaZowmn blows up the shield and arm of a Jegan with a shot from its Hyper Knuckle Buster (4.1 MW).
-In Ep 1 the beams from the Kshatriya bits seem to be even pierce at least one Jegan shield.
-In Ep 5 the Rozen Zulu beams seem to be able to melt in different degrees the shields of the various Jegans and Rezels it engages

Availability of the Sleeves' beam gatling gun:

-Sleeves - 4 (3 stolen/provided to the Unicorn Gundam)
1- Gilboa’s AMS-129
2- Stolen by Unicorn at Palau
3 & 4- Provided by the Garencieres at Torrington
-Nahel Argama - 9 (8 used in pairs on the Unicorn Gundam shields)
1- Kshatriya Repaired
2- Unicorn Gundam VS Banshee (ditched before returning to the Nahel Agama)
6- Unicorn Gundam VS Neo Zeong

My point is that this is supposed to be a Zeon weapon, yet out the 13 pieces I mentioned above, 11 end up as equipment of the Unicorn Gundam, one with the Nahel Argama's repaired Kshatriya and only one actually used by the Sleeves.

The Leo effect:

Most noticeable in Ep 7, the Nahel Agama's MS seem able to take a lot of damage without blowing up and in most cases without preventing them from further abandoning the battlefield. In previous episodes we had already seen that depending on which side had the short end of the stick at the time, one side tended to have MS the blew up upon the slightest damage while the other side ended up largely unscratched, at least until the plot required the to turn the tables, proceeding to have the opposing factions switch roles.

The absent Zeon shield defense:

Units like the Gaza C, Gaza D, Geara Doga, Geara Zulu, Zaku III, etc., have shoulder shields which they never use, despite this series usually giving a big emphasis to the use of shields by EF units, in some cases providing ridiculous levels of defense which remain inconsistent along the OVAs.

As if the frequent "hocus pocus" of the RX-0 wasn't bad enough, we still have to do with this plot driven incoherences on top of that.

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Re: Unicorn Gundam OVAs Technology Incoherences

Post by MythSearcher » Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:10 pm

Gelgoog Jager wrote:I wanted to share this since I haven't been motivated enough to watch the TV version just to go over the same headaches once more.

I have noticed several incoherences in the technology shown in the UC OVAs, such as how effective some weapons and/or pieces of equipment are in different scenarios, which, in the lack of a better explanation, seem to simply be plot driven:

Shields with I-Fields VS beam swords (Kshatriya's VS Unicorn's)

-In Ep 3 the Unicorn uses its open shield to block a stab from the Sinanju's large beam axes currently stored on its shield. The weapons inquisitions are supposed to be more powerful than your average beam saber. In Ep 6 the Sinanju evenly slices a Jegan shield with the same weapon.
-In Ep 2 the Kshatriya's wing binder, which functions as a thick physical shield and supposedly also has an I-Field, is easily sliced in two by a single beam saber strike from the Unicorn Gundam.
-In Ep 7 we have the worst offender: the Unicorn Gundam forced into standard mode by Angelo's Rozen Zulu's psycho jammer is taken hits from his beam guns, yet the shields of the Unicorn, which have been reversed has closed down and turn down their I-fields, remain unscratched after taking several beams shots.

Explosive defense Gundarium Gamma VS multilayered titanium ceramic alloy (Gaza D VS Jegan ECOAS):

-In Ep3 we watch how an ECOAS Loto destroys an approaching Gaza D with a missile from its arm launcher.
-In Ep 7 we watch how an ECOAS Jegan is truck with 2 missiles from Jegan shield right into the chest, yet only a layer of its armor has been taken out.

Jegan's Shield Beam Coating:

-In Ep 3 a Gaza D fires its Knuckle Buster (8.5 MW) at a Jegan, who blocks it with the lower (and thiner) section of its shield, which right afterwards is seen without a scratch or melted areas.
-In Ep 7 A GaZowmn blows up the shield and arm of a Jegan with a shot from its Hyper Knuckle Buster (4.1 MW).
-In Ep 1 the beams from the Kshatriya bits seem to be even pierce at least one Jegan shield.
-In Ep 5 the Rozen Zulu beams seem to be able to melt in different degrees the shields of the various Jegans and Rezels it engages

Availability of the Sleeves' beam gatling gun:

-Sleeves - 4 (3 stolen/provided to the Unicorn Gundam)
1- Gilboa’s AMS-129
2- Stolen by Unicorn at Palau
3 & 4- Provided by the Garencieres at Torrington
-Nahel Argama - 9 (8 used in pairs on the Unicorn Gundam shields)
1- Kshatriya Repaired
2- Unicorn Gundam VS Banshee (ditched before returning to the Nahel Agama)
6- Unicorn Gundam VS Neo Zeong

My point is that this is supposed to be a Zeon weapon, yet out the 13 pieces I mentioned above, 11 end up as equipment of the Unicorn Gundam, one with the Nahel Argama's repaired Kshatriya and only one actually used by the Sleeves.

The Leo effect:

Most noticeable in Ep 7, the Nahel Agama's MS seem able to take a lot of damage without blowing up and in most cases without preventing them from further abandoning the battlefield. In previous episodes we had already seen that depending on which side had the short end of the stick at the time, one side tended to have MS the blew up upon the slightest damage while the other side ended up largely unscratched, at least until the plot required the to turn the tables, proceeding to have the opposing factions switch roles.

The absent Zeon shield defense:

Units like the Gaza C, Gaza D, Geara Doga, Geara Zulu, Zaku III, etc., have shoulder shields which they never use, despite this series usually giving a big emphasis to the use of shields by EF units, in some cases providing ridiculous levels of defense which remain inconsistent along the OVAs.

As if the frequent "hocus pocus" of the RX-0 wasn't bad enough, we still have to do with this plot driven incoherences on top of that.
Well, even if we forget about the suspension of disbelieve/it's just anime type of thinking, military damage is not really that straight forward.
The incidental angle can change the effect of the damage by a lot, the same armour, hit at a relatively shallow angle can take a much more powerful hit than a perpendicular hit.

Another reason for this might be the actual maintenance issue, I've heard from Taiwan friends who have been in their army and maintained AFVs, that some of theie armour is actually in really bad shape because of budgetary issue but still has to be repaired to look like new. The solution is to use clay/cement to fill the various dents, smoothen the surface, then redo the paint job.(basically using all your Gunpla skills on it)
Given the situation, the Gaza D vs ECOAS Jegan can be explaint that way, Gaza D did use better armour material, but it took quite a bit too much beating before this particular battle and that's not enough resources to fix it(Gundarium Gamma is not that cheap), while ECOAS has all the resources they needed.
Another explanation can be things like different warhead for the missiles(for different purposes).

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Re: Unicorn Gundam OVAs Technology Incoherences

Post by toysdream » Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:56 pm

The Gaza series shields are mounted in a really awkward way which seems like it would make it impossible to (intentionally) block with them. As for the Geara Doga, I recall that even back in CCA, Amuro is able to blow away a Geara Doga's shield piece by piece using the Nu Gundam's head vulcans - that stuck with me because it virtually never happens. Could it be possible that the Doga shield is actually just cheap material with some kind of anti-beam coating?

And I certainly wouldn't put too much stock in the power outputs of various knuckle busters as per the specs. The Hyper Knuckle Buster is always described as being more powerful than the fixed version used by the Gaza D.

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Re: Unicorn Gundam OVAs Technology Incoherences

Post by Wingnut » Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:28 am

toysdream wrote:As for the Geara Doga, I recall that even back in CCA, Amuro is able to blow away a Geara Doga's shield piece by piece using the Nu Gundam's head vulcans - that stuck with me because it virtually never happens. Could it be possible that the Doga shield is actually just cheap material with some kind of anti-beam coating?
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Hathaway did the exact same thing when he stole that Jegan to go after Quess. He just clears the Ra Calium when a Gera Doga pops up in front of him and he vulcans it to death taking out sizable chunks of the shield before killing the suit itself.

CCA shields in general also seem to have far less AB coating than the Unicorn era Jegans do as just before Amuro made it back to the Ra Calium with Nu Gundam, Kayra managed to shoot and blow up a Geara Doga shield in seemingly one shot with her beam rifle before having the same thing done to her shield with a single shot from Rezin's beam rifle.
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Re: Unicorn Gundam OVAs Technology Incoherences

Post by HalfDemonInuyasha » Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:18 am

MythSearcher wrote:Well, even if we forget about the suspension of disbelieve/it's just anime type of thinking, military damage is not really that straight forward.
The incidental angle can change the effect of the damage by a lot, the same armour, hit at a relatively shallow angle can take a much more powerful hit than a perpendicular hit.

Another reason for this might be the actual maintenance issue, I've heard from Taiwan friends who have been in their army and maintained AFVs, that some of theie armour is actually in really bad shape because of budgetary issue but still has to be repaired to look like new. The solution is to use clay/cement to fill the various dents, smoothen the surface, then redo the paint job.(basically using all your Gunpla skills on it)
Given the situation, the Gaza D vs ECOAS Jegan can be explaint that way, Gaza D did use better armour material, but it took quite a bit too much beating before this particular battle and that's not enough resources to fix it(Gundarium Gamma is not that cheap), while ECOAS has all the resources they needed.
Another explanation can be things like different warhead for the missiles(for different purposes).
Hence why tanks started using sloped armor for increased frontal deflection.

Or just look at some WWII tank survivors. I remember watching "Greatest Tank Battles" and a veteran talking about the Battle of the Bulge and his M4 Sherman was escaping a town that happened to be covered by a squad of Jagdtigers (going full reverse with the turret pointed behind to see) and took a hit in the back of the turret by one but survived, all because that big 128 mm shell hit a part of the turret at JUST the right angle that the shell ricocheted off rather than slicing all the way through the entire tank like one would expect it to from any direction (the force of the impact still being enough to shove the Sherman forward several feet and left a hole where it hit).

Or a Sherman that somehow managed to survive TWO shots from a Panther's 75 mm gun before being taken out by the third when one would usually be enough.

All because of angles.

And yeah, I usually attributed poor maintenance to the Sleeves stuff. I mean, they're a force of leftovers OF leftovers after all and so I wouldn't expect them to have access to the best repair facilities or have the best logistics for parts and whatnot.
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Re: Unicorn Gundam OVAs Technology Incoherences

Post by JEFFPIATT » Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:47 am

The Sleeves don't have an nation behind them funding there military budget the past two were funded by other means Axis had what ever funds the escaping zeon forces could steal along with sales of there remaining mineral wealth. the 2nd movement was funded with Char's hidden welth and his chrismia getting donations. the Sleeves have some dwindling support but mostly rely on the equiptment brought over by the absorbed past neo-zeon and Zeon Remanent forces existing suits given unified paint jobs along with new suits bought with there remaining funds of lower quality than past movements along with the fact that most of the old ms no longer had any spare parts beyond the Hi-Zack line witch the ROZ was still deploying along with the hobby model being rolled out of Luna II for rich people to play with/ get used as neo-zeon trainer/covert units

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Re: Unicorn Gundam OVAs Technology Incoherences

Post by False Prophet » Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:24 am

Now remembering it, where is all the Lombardia-class ships from Zeta? I can't seem remember seeing them anywhere in ZZ, CC, or UC. Why is it retired? I sure know that it isn't because the Ra Cailcum-class, since they still use Magellan into as late as U.C 0096. Maybe because it is a Titans' design?

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Re: Unicorn Gundam OVAs Technology Incoherences

Post by BrentD15 » Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:36 am

False Prophet wrote:Now remembering it, where is all the Lombardia-class ships from Zeta? I can't seem remember seeing them anywhere in ZZ, CC, or UC. Why is it retired? I sure know that it isn't because the Ra Cailcum-class, since they still use Magellan into as late as U.C 0096. Maybe because it is a Titans' design?
You mean the ship that was only seen once in an episode of Zeta Gundam?
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Re: Unicorn Gundam OVAs Technology Incoherences

Post by Dark Duel » Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:56 am

False Prophet wrote:Now remembering it, where is all the Lombardia-class ships from Zeta? I can't seem remember seeing them anywhere in ZZ, CC, or UC. Why is it retired? I sure know that it isn't because the Ra Cailcum-class, since they still use Magellan into as late as U.C 0096. Maybe because it is a Titans' design?
You may be thinking of the Alexandria-class. The Lombardia was one ship, and as was pointed out only appeared in a single episode. And you answer your own question - The Lombardia, like the Alexandria-class, is a Titans design. Thus, I would expect they were scrapped following the fall of the Titans.

Though this does bring up an oddity. After 0088, the EFSF stopped using Titans-use ships such as the Alexandria-class and mobile suits...and then not even a decade later, along comes the General Revil, a refit Dogosse Giar-class - which was pretty much the flagship of the Titans once Scirrocco took over. What's up with that?

*Yes, I am aware that an Alexandria-class turns up in V; However, the Gaunland was a League Militaire ship rather than a regular Federation Forces vessel.
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Re: Unicorn Gundam OVAs Technology Incoherences

Post by Massignifico » Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:06 pm

Because Dogosse Giar is herself an upgrade of Birmingham class from 0083, so from an in-universe point of view that design is purely federal

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