Zaku The Origin

[toysdream]

Hi all! Been super busy for the last few months, but let me take a minute to jot down some stray thoughts about MS development in Gundam The Origin and the spinoff MSD (Mobile Suit Discovery) series.

One big question mark in all this is whether the mecha development setting info from The Origin and MSD is supposed to apply to the overall Universal Century history, or whether it's valid only in the context of The Origin. Technically, most of this has never been addressed in a "filmed work," so none of the previous material from third-party books and suchlike was ever official in the first place. I don't expect we'll get clear guidance on this from Sunrise any time soon, so in the meantime, it seems like a matter for idle fan speculation.


Anyway, before we get into the increasingly tangled history of the Dom family, let's consider the series of prototype mobile suits and mobile workers leading up to the Zaku...

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/images/msd.jpg

The above is a lineup of the Mobile Worker Model 01 Late Type and Model 01 Final Type, the MS-04 from the comic, the YMS-03 Waff from the anime, and the standard MS-05 Zaku I. I did my best to get them all in proper scale, though I had to guess at the MS-04.

The thing that occurs to me is that the MS-04 really seems out of sequence. With its boxy legs and pelvis, proliferation of cables, and rounded chest armor, it looks more like a missing link between the MW-01 and the Waff. If it actually goes in between the Waff and the Zaku, then we have a situation where major design features flip back and forth between every version. Perhaps this will be addressed with a design makeover for the next episode of the anime, but so far the anime designs have stuck very closely to the comic, so we can't rule out the possibility that they'll basically stick with the comic version.

Personally, although I can take or leave the MW-01, I do like the Final Type (fingers crossed for a model kit!) and the Waff seems like a clever solution to the problem of designing something even simpler than the Zaku I. The Waff's round shoulders, two-part skirt armor, and bell-shaped legs even hint at a common ancestor to the Zaku, Dom, and Gyan; it's an ingenious bit of design.


The Waff's leg design also hints at the possibility that Zeon has now switched to a frame-based construction. Older sources claimed that Zeon mobile suits used a shell-like monocoque construction, where the armor holds the body together, while the Federation used a frame-based semi-monocoque method. But the MS Museum catalog claimed it was the other way around, and as we discussed in a recent thread, the anime seems to confirm that Zeon mobile suits are actually built on an internal frame that can function without armor. Page three of that thread includes a bunch of screenshots of Gelgoog and Kaempfer internal frames, and if we needed any further confirmation, we just saw a fully functional armor-less Zaku frame in Gundam Thunderbolt.

Once again, it's interesting to compare this with the earlier printed sources. As I noted in this Origin timeline thread, the MW-01 Final Type seems to roll out at roughly the same time that Gundam Century gives for the rollout of the MS-03, namely February of U.C. 0074. Gundam Century's description of the MS-03 says that "Zeonic attempted to dramatically reduce the weight of the third prototype unit, which was then under construction. The cockpit escape system was removed, and the body structure was changed to a frameless monocoque type." I might suggest that it was actually the other way around, and that the YMS-03 switched away from monocoque to frame construction.

Anyway, in episode 3 of the anime, Dr. Minovsky promises to complete the YMS-03 by the end of that year (U.C. 0074). In the comic, the next stage of mobile suit development we see is flight testing of the MS-04 in June of U.C. 0077. So let's see what the anime version shows us about the next few years of development history...

-- Mark

[Gelgoog Jager]

I can't help but think that some features are hair being randomly added and removed, for instance, the external cables: the Waff has one, the MS-04 seems to have at least as many as the Zaku II, but Zaku I in the middle doesn't have any. As a bit of an oddity, the MS-05Q which incorporates one external cable puts it in the head.

The exchangeable arms is an interesting features that comes and goes somewhat randomly, first in the MW-01, it skips the MW-01 Late Type, return for the YMS-03 and then disappears until the YMS-07B-0.

The legs of the YMS-03 is a trait that disappears for a while, but resurfaces for the development of the Dom series in the form of the MS-06RD-4 and YMS-08B.

My point is that even if the MS-04 seems out of place between the YMS-03 and the Zaku I, it's not such a big deal seeing how some of these external features just come and go.

All that being said, I'm hoping that this time around we can get a more realistic explanation of what those external cables do and exactly what benefits they provide respectively according depending on where are they placed, be it on the head, waist or legs.

[Erisie]

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/images/msd.jpg

The above is a lineup of the Mobile Worker Model 01 Late Type and Model 01 Final Type, the MS-04 from the comic, the YMS-03 Waff from the anime, and the standard MS-05 Zaku I. I did my best to get them all in proper scale, though I had to guess at the MS-04.

The thing that occurs to me is that the MS-04 really seems out of sequence. With its boxy legs and pelvis, proliferation of cables, and rounded chest armor, it looks more like a missing link between the MW-01 and the Waff. If it actually goes in between the Waff and the Zaku, then we have a situation where major design features flip back and forth between every version. Perhaps this will be addressed with a design makeover for the next episode of the anime, but so far the anime designs have stuck very closely to the comic, so we can't rule out the possibility that they'll basically stick with the comic version.

If you ask my opinion, Mark (which nobody did, I know...) is that the anime's plot bungled things up when they changed the MS-03. Some manga-related sources had this ugly fellow as the MS-03. These names also appeared in the Mobile Suit Illustrated Encyclopedia 2006 databook. As you well said before, it's nothing more than a MW-01 upper chest with legs from the MS-04. The same charts give us MS-02, which was turned into the "MW-01 Late Type" in the anime.

What was turned into the actual MS-03 in the anime, in the manga was nothing more than a conceptual render by Professor Minovsky. A hopeful look at the mid-term future of mobile suit technology. That is, not a machine that was actually built.

By turning that conceptual render into an actually-built MS model in the anime's events, the whole evolutionary timeline gets screwed up. There's now an older model (MS-03 Waff) that looks more refined and closer to the Zaku and Dom than its apparent successor (MS-04).

I do wonder whether if that the manga's MS-04 we're all familiar with will actually appear in the anime, or if it will get replaced by something else, such as the old MSV design or even this one! So far, none of the preview images for The Origin IV have shown it, and the only indication of its existence so far has been the machine gun used by the Prototype Gouf, which is the same as the MS-04s.
Although, as you said, all of the designs from the manga have shown up in the anime thus far. Back then, I wasn't sure if they were even going to have a design as unorthodox as the MW-01 for an anime, much less a model kit. Speaking of that...

Personally, although I can take or leave the MW-01, I do like the Final Type (fingers crossed for a model kit!)

I'm kinda surprised that you, of all people, collect gunpla. Anyway, back to speculation on MS models, there's another thing that happens later on:

Spoiler

Show

During his attempt to defect to the Federation, Professor Minovsky went to Grenada under the excuse to supervise Zeonic's MS-05 production lines since, according to Anaheim's execs, they went over budget with the MS-04 in an attempt to catch up to Anaheim's new RX-77 Guncannon, so Zeonic had to redesign it for mass-production (ie. MS-05). Tem Ray knows better, however...

[domtropen]

from the iv preview ms-04 still looks very close to the manga, with some changes on skirts and arm to be a bit more zaku-like. The front skirt and cable attachment point at lower torso is a bit gouf-ish for me.

[toysdream]

Have they shown any preview images of the MS-04 from episode IV? All the ones I've seen are of the MS-05 - it's almost like they're teasing us.

EDIT: Ah, found the preview. Well, that's a little bit better, but still pretty peculiar. The legs in particular feel like a real throwback. Maybe it would make more sense if the YMS-03 was just Dr. Minovsky's presentation pitch...

-- Mark

[balofo]

So are they skipping the MS-02 or will it be part of MSD?

[toysdream]

Technically, there isn't even an MS-01 in the Origin anime - they went straight from the MW-01 to the YMS-03. The MSD web site and kit manuals, and the design features in Gundam Ace, have all been extremely skimpy on technical details, so this may never be addressed at all.

-- Mark

[balofo]

Oh I see, in the limbo it goes.

[Erisie]

from the iv preview ms-04 still looks very close to the manga, with some changes on skirts and arm to be a bit more zaku-like. The front skirt and cable attachment point at lower torso is a bit gouf-ish for me.

Have they shown any preview images of the MS-04 from episode IV? All the ones I've seen are of the MS-05 - it's almost like they're teasing us.

EDIT: Ah, found the preview. Well, that's a little bit better, but still pretty peculiar. The legs in particular feel like a real throwback. Maybe it would make more sense if the YMS-03 was just Dr. Minovsky's presentation pitch...

-- Mark

What? Is there a preview of episode IV that shows MS-04? Where? Can't find a darn thing on this forum, Gundam.info, Twitter, "the imageboard"... Nothing even on those sketchy Chinese websites that always post leaked material.

Anyone care for a link? domtropen? Mark?

[Xenosynth]

I happened upon someone posting this today, could it be considered MS-02? It has a different design than the MW-01 has, and looks pretty similar to the manga MS-02. Or is this just considered another type of modified MW-01?

Also, if any of these were mislabeled, I was mainly grabbing from a modeler I follow's twitter post on it, so I may have misunderstood his labels.

[toysdream]

Yes, the "Mobile Worker Model 01 Final Type" from the anime takes the place of the so-called "MS-02" from the comic (I don't think it was ever explicitly identified as such in the story). So there doesn't appear to be an MS-02, or an MS-01 for that matter, in the Origin anime continuity.

-- Mark

[Dark Duel]

I'd have to re-read the corresponding volumes of the manga, but I do not recall ever seeing any machine specifically being identified or referred to as MS-02 in the manga either.

[toysdream]

Continuing! Let's consider the current state of the Dom family tree...

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/images/msd2.jpg

This is a case where the MSD series has made things even more confusing. For starters, the MSD website and the Dom Test Type kit manual don't even agree on the development history. The website's development flow chart says that the YMS-08A is derived from the MS-07C-5 Gouf Test Type, and thus a couple of steps removed from the original Gouf. The kit manual, though, repeats the classic MSV explanation that the YMS-08A was a rejected rival to the Gouf itself. So if you were hoping that the MSD series would be able to keep its own story straight, well, no such luck.

From a design standpoint, there are a lot of weirdnesses in the new lineup. For one thing, whatever the backstory of the YMS-08A is supposed to be, it's strange that the Dom Test Type doesn't use any of its parts (except perhaps the chest section of the ground type). For another, the flow chart claims that the MS-06RD-4 is a predecessor to the space version of the Dom Test Type, but every minor difference in their leg design leaves the RD-4 looking closer to the final version of the Dom; if you line these up as per the MSD flow chart, then it seems as if the design of the legs actively reverts back to the RD-4 in the final version.


For all that, I think there's something satisfying about the Dom Test Type, which does a pretty credible job of bridging the gap between the Gouf and Dom series. The idea that this machine was the basis for the MS-06Z is also pretty interesting. For one thing, the MS-06Z appears to have introduced the idea of adding skirt thrusters to this design, and we could draw a nice line from the empty-skirted Dom Test Type to the two thrusters of the MS-06Z, and then the three thrusters of the final Dom. The MS-06Z also has thruster units on the sides of its legs that resemble those on the backs of the Prototype Dom's legs.

On the other hand, it seems far more plausible to me that the MS-06RD-4 came after the Dom Test Type and the Prototype Dom, at a point when the design of the Dom's legs was closer to the final styling. Because the RD-4's upper body is taken directly from a standard Zaku, this would make more sense if there wasn't an existing space version of the Dom Test Type. So regardless of what's claimed in the MSD materials, I don't really believe in the existence of the YMS-08B space type.

Setting aside the question of the YMS-08A, then, I could buy a development flow that went something like this:

MS-07C-5 -> YMS-08B (ground type) -> YMS-09 -> MS-09
YMS-08B (ground type) -> MS-06Z (space type)
YMS-08B (ground type) plus prototype MS-09R parts -> MS-06RD-4 (space type)

The silhouette and thruster layout of the MS-06Z, incidentally, are quite similar to those of the AMX-011 Zaku III. I could easily imagine an intermediate machine, with all the bulk and high thrust of the MS-06Z but no psycommu system, to serve as their common ancestor.

-- Mark

[Gelgoog Jager]

Before anything else, I want to point out that recently we got a direct predecessor to the MS-06Z, the YMS-06Z from the new Blue Destiny manga:

https://i.imgur.com/11y9PyJ.jpg
http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php? ... 2&start=40

Oddly enough, IRL this unit seems to have been designed after the MS-06R-WW-3 Zaku Kraken:

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/bf-try/ms-06r-ww-3.htm

Back to the MS-06Z, Gundam Side Stories gave us some updated lineart of it:

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/File:MS06Z ... _front.jpg
http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/File:MS06Z ... e_rear.jpg
http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/File:MSG-ML_51.jpg
http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/MS-06Z_Psy ... ystem_Zaku

Most importantly, it's hard to overlook that in this image the legs of the MS-06Z actually seem to simply be larger versions of the legs of the MS-06G:

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/gun ... 0824024837

Anyway, from the images we can observe that the thrusters of the MS-06Z are placed in the same fashion as those of some amphibious MS. Considering that the MS-06Z needs to have a high generator output to power up its weapons, I can't help but think that it might also be related to Zeon's amphibious MS which ere the first to have beam weapons.

Going back to the YMS-06Z, the manga proposes an interesting alternative for the purpose of its hand thrusters:

https://i.imgur.com/mT8J7De.jpg

Actually, it's interesting to consider that the YMS-06Z and MSN-01 share the same color scheme, but not the MS-06Z. Incidentally there's a different colored MSN-01 which is simply classified as MS-06 High Mobility Test Type Zaku in Gundam Crisis:

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/crisis ... hmtest.htm

Perhaps this unit and the MS-06Z were originally not part of the MS-16X Bishop Plan? From what we can see, the YMS-06Z lacks beam finger guns, so perhaps the YMS-06Z was being used for testing the psycommu system, while the MS-06Z and the unit from Gundam Crisis were testing other systems for the final design Considering that the Perfect Zeon is supposed to be able to operate on Earth, maybe the MS-06Z is indeed based on the MS-06G, while the purple unit from Gundam Crisis was its space counterpart. Therefore it's possible that the YMS-06Z and this MS-06 HMTT Zaku led to the development of the MSN-01, while the YMZ-06Z and MS-06Z were the basis for the Zeon (with legs). In such case, maybe the MSN-02 was not supposed to be based on the MSN-01, but rather was meant to be its sister unit intended for combat in a different environment (Earth and space respectively).

One last thing, the Gundam wiki profile of the MS-06Z claims that in Missing Link and at least one other source that the MS-06Z is simply called Bishop.

As for the AMX-011, its legs seem to be base don the MS-06R series which have a similar thruster arrangement, specially the MS-06R-2 which shares the shape of its side leg armor. On the other hand, the AMX-011 seems to have many common characteristics with the MS-06FZ, including the torso and the backpack thruster arrangement.

[toysdream]

I think I don't believe in this YMS-06Z. With its lack of finger beams, random Efreet head, gratuitous footlessness, and bizarre backpack bits, it just doesn't seem to relate to anything.

The standard MS-06Z, on the other hand, is an interesting machine with a lot of curious resemblances. It's kind of nice that the spotlight's back on it these days.

Anyways, I just put together the YMS-08B model kit, and it's quite interesting putting it next to the other machines. For one thing, it obviously has no Gouf attributes whatsoever; the Prototype Gouf kit they did for the MSD series is really big (it seems to have been scaled to a head height of 18.7 meters) and it completely dwarfs the runty Zaku-type upper body of the YMS-08B. If one finds the YMS-08B convincing, which I think I do, the best approach might actually be to reject the existence of the MS-07C-5.

After all, the stated purpose of the C-5 was to test Dom equipment - the mono-eye, the heat saber, and by many accounts the leg thrusters. When the MSV series was being created, the general assumption seems to have been that the Dom's hover system was located in its calves. Thus the multiple vents on the C-5's legs, which morphed into the similar vents on the Prototype Dom, and were presumably inside the leg armor of the final Dom. But the modern consensus is that the Dom's nuclear thermal hoverjets are in the soles of its feet, which are represented in their full glory in the feet of the YMS-08B. So if this machine is based on a Zaku rather than a Gouf, and incorporates the Dom's hover features in a way that the classic MS-07C-5 design no longer could, then I submit that it makes the C-5 utterly superfluous.

-- Mark

[Gelgoog Jager]

IIRC, isn't the MS-07C-5 meant to test the mono-eye and heat saber, and therefore was given additional leg thrusters to MIMIC the hovering capabilities of a Dom?

Considering that we know of many MS that can hover using sheer thrust, I presumed that the MS-07C-5 worked on a similar principle, lacking sole hover jets. After all, testing the mono-eye and heat saber would probably involve using them in similar conditions as to what they would be expected to have on an actual Dom, which probably wasn't ready at the time.

Of course, the drawback would probably be that the use of leg thrusters in place of hover jets would probably consume propellant faster or perhaps be a heavier burden on the generator.

As a side note, is there any official lineart of the rear of the MS-07C-5? All I can find are model kits and figures which include a large rear leg thruster that seems to resemble those of the YMS-09.

This brings me to propose an alternate use for the YMS-09 exterior leg thrusters and the MS-09B's optional calf thrusters: they are intended as a backup system if the sole hover jets become unusable in mid combat. After all, a large heavy MS like a Dom type would be at a huge disadvantage were it forced to engage an enemy while relying only on bipedal motion should its hover jets system fail.

This might also explain why the YMS-09 frame was used for the Dom Cannons: maybe their secondary hovering system could be used in an auxiliary capacity to allow these machines carrying additional heavy equipment to move around without sacrificing speed much speed.

Finally, I have been wondering if at one point the MS-06K might have been supposed to function like a Recksnow from Reconguista: a ground use hovering MS equipped with a shoulder beam weapon. As for why Zeon would "switch back" to jet thrusters from hover jets, the most simple excuse would be the deteriorating situation of the war, which was taking the fighting back to space. This is backed up by details such as:

-By that point California Base should have been working with some Gelgoogs already, none of which are known to use hover jets despite having wide enough legs to equip them.
-We know that some captured MS-06K units were used by the EF in space, so perhaps we could assume that space-use was a feature of the MS-06K considered from the beginning.

In other words, they could have decided to use the more traditional thruster system for the sake of being able to more easily reconfigure the units for space combat if required to.

[toysdream]

The only detailed info on the MS-07C-5 I can find is in the second MSV book, which says:

Of the tests performed with this C-5 type, the most important were tests of the heat saber and of high-speed movement using a new type of propulsion engine. For this reason, the verniers on the backpack were enhanced as much as possible, and the legs were also equipped with supplemental propulsion engines.

In terms of line art, this is actually shown in the current MS Encyclopedia, but here's a slightly better scan for you:

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... ion123.jpg

There's nothing very remarkable about the unit on the back of the leg. In fact, as drawn, it appears to be sealed up. As I mentioned, the explanation as of the MSV era was that the vents on the sides of the Prototype Dom's legs were "hoverjet nozzles" while the device on the back of its leg was a "main rocket engine" for forward thrust - that's how they're labeled in the kit manual. So it's conceivable that the C-5 was supposed to have the hoverjets but not the rocket engine, with the sealed device on the back of its leg being a dummy or placeholder.

Since the explanation for the Dom's hovering system has changed over the years, the C-5's leg design may not make sense anymore either. I do feel like the YMS-08B supplants the C-5's role entirely, and thus removes the Gouf from the Dom's family tree.

As for the various propulsion systems, the standard explanation (going back to the MSV series) is that the Dom uses a combination of rockets and nuclear thermal jet engines, with the latter providing the hover function and the former giving it extra forward thrust for greater speed. In theory, it should be possible for the Dom to move using the jet engines alone, which is basically how the Xamel is designed; the extra rockets are just there for when it needs a speed boost, or presumably for short-distance jumping as shown in the anime.

Speaking of jumping, it's interesting to note that both the Guntank and the Zock - neither of which has movable legs, and both of which are capable of thrusting straight up in the air - have 1.1 G of thrust. That may be the threshold for upward movement based on thruster power alone, so presumably the Dom would need something similar in order to rocket-jump the way it does in the anime.

-- Mark

[Gelgoog Jager]

Regarding the official explanation about the MS-07C-5, let's not forget that sometimes these explanations make little sense, as in the case of the Gelgoog/Galbaldy Alpha forearm jet thrusters, meant to assist them in atmospheric flight. In another thread you mentioned that a MS would have to take a Superman like pose in order to use such thrusters.

Looking at the MS-07C-5 thrusters, they seem to be of the same type as the standard Gouf and simply seems to have more of them on the sides.In the case of the fifth one in the back of the legs, I'm inclined to think that its opening is also meant to provide horizontal thrust, instead of just vertical thrust as in the case of the side thrusters, and thus is depicted with a wider opening. The original MS-06D uses a similar setup, with thrusters on the side (only inner leg sides) and more on the back of the legs.

More importantly, if they wanted to test the hover jet system of the Dom, using larger legs like those of the MS-07H to install them would make more sense. More importantly, installing a similar thruster system as the YMS-09 on a Zaku/Gouf frame would result in legs that resemble those of the MS-06K.

On a different note, I couldn't help but notice that the backpack of the MS-07C-5 somewhat resembles that of the standard MS-08TX, namely the widely separated side thrusters. If you removed the faceplate and the central thruster of the Efreet's backpack for making space for the heat saber latch, you would end with a very similar backpack design. While not a perfect match, it certainly seems to be the most similar OYW Zeon backpack I've seen.

[toysdream]

Old thread, I conjure thee back to life!

So the Gundam the Origin/MSD spinoff, "Cucuruz Doan's Island," has been running for a while now on Kadokawa's ComicWalker website. Here are the first five episodes - I do love Junji Ono's Yas-influenced artwork...

http://comic-walker.com/contents/detail ... 010000_68/

The main story takes place after Doan's desertion, and depicts the continuing adventures of his old unit, the Y-02 Development Training Team. It's interspersed with flashbacks to their pre-One Year War days as mobile suit test pilots. The date tags on these flashbacks, though, are rather curious in light of the development timing discussed above.

In the Origin comic and anime, Dr. Minovsky proposes the development of the YMS-03 Waff at some point in U.C. 0074. As noted in this thread, the first term at Zeon's military academy likely begins in April of U.C. 0074; Minovsky makes his proposal after this, and promises to complete the YMS-03 by the end of that year.

The next milestone we see comes three years later. The video of the prototype MS-04 Bugu that Minovsky leaks to the Federation is time-stamped as June 23, U.C. 0077. By January of U.C. 0078, Zeon has moved on to early deployment of the MS-05 Zaku, so it seems they've come pretty far in their development at this point.

In the Cucuruz Doan comic, however, the Y-02 team is formed at the Dark Colony in late August, U.C. 0077 - two months after the MS-04 video was recorded - and its members begin combat training with the YMS-03. In theory, this machine should be a couple of years old at this point - hardly state of the art - and it's already been superseded by the shiny new MS-04. The comic doesn't explain this, but it does give us some basis for speculation about the progress (or lack thereof) in Zeon's mobile suit development since Minovsky made his bold promise...

-- Mark

[Gelgoog Jager]

Out of curiosity, how many YMS-03 units are the Y-02 team using for their training? Perhaps the issue could be the high cost of the Bugu, which makes producing multiple units for combat training undesirable/unfeasible and thus the YMS-03 provides a more economical alternative.

Perhaps another way to put it is: do we know how many MS-04 were built, because as far as the OVAs are concerned we could assume that there's a single MS-04 unitthat was used for testing on U.C. 0077 and was later assigned to Ramba Ral as his personal machine.

If the Bugu's high cost do is a limitation that restricts the number of available units, then it makes sense that the YMS-03 is brought back into action in order to gather combat data for the upcoming mass production MS-05, namely for team tactics or for anti-MS combat.