EFSF Zeta-era Garrisons

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Re: EFSF Zeta-era Garrisons

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Sun Apr 24, 2016 6:01 pm

Well, the naval review of 0083 could a good escape goat for justifying the disappearance of the other Pegasus class ships, simply by assuming that all the other ships were there as well, but weren't as lucky as the Gray Phantom. There are other possibilities though.

If we exclude Sentinel Gundam, which has other inconsistencies such as keeping the forced idea that the Barzam had to be related to the RX-178, we don't see any Magellans either after 0083. The same could be said about the Salamis Kai from 0083 and other minor versions, such as the Nelson class or Trafalgar class.

Perhaps the EF decided to standardize their space fleet after the events of 0083, and decided to focus on a single design, leading to scrapping of other ship classes. Meanwhile, the Titans could have used their privileges to develop the Alexandria class as an exception.

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Re: EFSF Zeta-era Garrisons

Post by JEFFPIATT » Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:20 am

there was irony the EFSF was during the 0083 era building modernized smaller space battle ships unfortunately the admerilty at the time wanted to revert back to an navel combat fleet rather than embrace MS carriers the flagship class being notable in that it lacked the abilty to hold ms internaly. The only active MSC units being the surviving pegisus class shps and the newly built Alibon who was also an experimental ship. The Alexandria-class heavy cruiser was commissioned right after the war in 0080 and the first ship was planned to attend the Navel Review but had setbacks during final outfitting and was delayed. With the titans right after forming taking the entire order for there own use.

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Re: EFSF Zeta-era Garrisons

Post by Zeonista » Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:24 pm

Although I am certain that the presence of the MSV types in Zeta Gundam was both a source shout-out and an ad for gunpla, there is a rational basis for the continued presence of theoretically outclassed MS.

The EFSF, like all military forces answerable to representative governments, must make do with the items it has within its budget. Yeah, yeah, AE and Pezun can show off all the latest toys, but that is not for you, trooper! The realities of trying to protect everything in the Earth Sphere at once against Zeon Rmnants lurking in the shadows would necessarily entail modernizing a lot of MS that are not even close to RX/MSZ levels of coolness. In 0085-87 a lot of OYW-era MS are not that far out of date, and with some minor tweaks would still be viable defensive units against Zeon Remnant forces equipped with nothing beyond 0083 designs. The scratch force at Jaburo isn't that bad, considering that most of them are equipped with beam guns or bazookas and would normally be quite capable of protecting their base against a randomly generated Zeon attack force. Only the two Zakutanks are true improvised weapons of defense. The AE-equipped AEUG strike force does have a generational equipment advantage, especially in the hands of the experienced pilots, which is why they manage to win in time to discover the bomb plot and flee to safety.

Given that situation at Jaburo in 0087, it really should not be a surprise that 0087-era MS should still be in use nearly a decade later. They have beam rifles, linear seat cockpits, enough Gundarium armor to take a glancing hit or a hit at long range, and a thrust-to-weight coefficient that keeps them in the game with a capable pilot at the controls. What is the real difference between a Re-Zel and a Zeta Plus for an EFF commander deploying his garrison? What is the real tactical difference between a GM III, a Nero, and a Jegan with an augmentation pack? It's more like in 0093 the Neo Zeon forces had finally achieved technological parity with the EFSF forces across the board with the Geara Doga (and subsequent Geara Zulu) and the mishmash of trial designs from 0087-88 could be relegated to the reserves and volunteers.

I think there is also a tendency to balance all MS in a given Gundam series, either UC or AU, by the chief hero MS on both sides in terms of quality and efficiency. This goes double in UC, where all the gaiden stories makes one think Gundams and psychommu mobile armors are commonplace! But, with a bit of perspective one can step back and see that in UC the amount of cutting edge ZOMG powerful MS/MA are very small, and much of the soldiering is done by MS pilots who feel pleased at getting something with a beam weapon, some real thrust output, and a 360-degree view for when the Minovsky fog of war settles in.
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Re: EFSF Zeta-era Garrisons

Post by Zeonista » Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:26 pm

Crap, I double-posted again, I definitely need to install the new mouse.... Can somebody delete the first post and keep the properly edited second version.
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Re: EFSF Zeta-era Garrisons

Post by EFSF Pilot » Sat Apr 30, 2016 6:55 am

Great point on the Jaburo Garrison being more than able to repel a common Zeon Remnants attack on their base. The GM Sniper Customs and GM Cannons would make a killing of an assault force made of OYW Zaku II and other leftovers. Those Gouf flight types even give the AEUG Nemos a good fight before they are destroyed.

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Re: EFSF Zeta-era Garrisons

Post by JEFFPIATT » Sat Apr 30, 2016 9:29 am

Zeonista wrote:Although I am certain that the presence of the MSV types in Zeta Gundam was both a source shout-out and an ad for gunpla, there is a rational basis for the continued presence of theoretically outclassed MS.

The EFSF, like all military forces answerable to representative governments, must make do with the items it has within its budget. Yeah, yeah, AE and Pezun can show off all the latest toys, but that is not for you, trooper! The realities of trying to protect everything in the Earth Sphere at once against Zeon Rmnants lurking in the shadows would necessarily entail modernizing a lot of MS that are not even close to RX/MSZ levels of coolness. In 0085-87 a lot of OYW-era MS are not that far out of date, and with some minor tweaks would still be viable defensive units against Zeon Remnant forces equipped with nothing beyond 0083 designs. The scratch force at Jaburo isn't that bad, considering that most of them are equipped with beam guns or bazookas and would normally be quite capable of protecting their base against a randomly generated Zeon attack force. Only the two Zakutanks are true improvised weapons of defense. The AE-equipped AEUG strike force does have a generational equipment advantage, especially in the hands of the experienced pilots, which is why they manage to win in time to discover the bomb plot and flee to safety.

Given that situation at Jaburo in 0087, it really should not be a surprise that 0087-era MS should still be in use nearly a decade later. They have beam rifles, linear seat cockpits, enough Gundarium armor to take a glancing hit or a hit at long range, and a thrust-to-weight coefficient that keeps them in the game with a capable pilot at the controls. What is the real difference between a Re-Zel and a Zeta Plus for an EFF commander deploying his garrison? What is the real tactical difference between a GM III, a Nero, and a Jegan with an augmentation pack? It's more like in 0093 the Neo Zeon forces had finally achieved technological parity with the EFSF forces across the board with the Geara Doga (and subsequent Geara Zulu) and the mishmash of trial designs from 0087-88 could be relegated to the reserves and volunteers.

I think there is also a tendency to balance all MS in a given Gundam series, either UC or AU, by the chief hero MS on both sides in terms of quality and efficiency. This goes double in UC, where all the gaiden stories makes one think Gundams and psychommu mobile armors are commonplace! But, with a bit of perspective one can step back and see that in UC the amount of cutting edge ZOMG powerful MS/MA are very small, and much of the soldiering is done by MS pilots who feel pleased at getting something with a beam weapon, some real thrust output, and a 360-degree view for when the Minovsky fog of war settles in.
I would not argue that point the explanation we got for the RGM-79R and the RMS-106 being commissioned was due to the post OYO Federal government being broke after paying the war reparations and rebuilding the damage from the war.midway in 0083the new production RGM-79 units are built to the C spec designed by the Luna II factory with holes in the fleed being filled by captured and Prize of war zeon ms. after the terrorist attack by diaz fleet the Titans were formed an seeming had the lions share of the military budget and tended to restrict what new equipment the normal forces could get expecially after having entire ships defect to the AEUG. my best guess as to what the standerd EFSF forces had to deploy could be guessed by the AEUG line up of RGM series ms.The RGC-83 GM Cannon II , RGM-79N GM Custom
, RMS-179 (RGM-79R) GM II, and possabilty some zaku II types refitted with hi-zack parts like the MS-06E Recon Type Zaku, The RMS-117 Galbaldy-β, seemed to be an subistute unit for the Hi-zack issued to ships deployed out of luna II who produced it based on leftover Zeon development data. Post first Neo-zeon war had to be an exciting time for the backwater garasions as part of the merger of the AEUG and Kalarba was getting there Fleet of AE built MS to fill the gaps left by the political decommissioning of all RMS series ms based heavenly on zeon tech externally The Nemo being an good unit to aquire as it was the basis for Londo Bell's RGM-89 Jegan. we also see GM II and GM III units fitted with recovered componants from older RGM-79 specialist units from the oyo like the GM II semi striker and yarzan's GM III with parts from the RGM-79V GM Night Seeker i

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Re: EFSF Zeta-era Garrisons

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Sun May 01, 2016 5:21 pm

The Jaburo garrison by U.C. 0087 seemed to be leftover units from the base during the late first couple of years after the OYW, namely the Guntank II GM Cannon, Heavy Type Guncannon and GM Sniper Custom, not to mention obsolete fighters.

The Zaku Tanks are not meant to be used for combat unless it's an emergency, and were probably used in the base for labor. The one unit I suspect could have been there for research is the MS-07H, for which only a handful of units were ever made. Perhaps the EF used it as some point for their research of aerial combat mobile weapons, but eventually gave up on them and just added them to the defense garrison.

The only "new" MS present at the base were at least one GM II and the Hizacks chasing the Audhumla and Sudori before the destruction of the base, but these could have been part of the forces that chased the AEUG down the atmosphere.

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Re: EFSF Zeta-era Garrisons

Post by EFSF Pilot » Sun May 01, 2016 6:54 pm

The Jaburo Garrison is an interesting force of obsolete mobile suits. Was the original GM production plant or project V. development areas still operational by 0087? The soldiers at Jaburo had to know something was up with the base being emptied and their position under siege by the AEUG. Did the common EFSF soldiers that escaped from the nuclear attack join the AEUG after being left to die by the Titans?

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Re: EFSF Zeta-era Garrisons

Post by EFSF Pilot » Sun May 01, 2016 8:50 pm

The Africa Federation Garrisons are a bit different as well. Aren't the "zeonic" suits used in ZZ Gundam in the desert implied to have been stolen from Federal Garrisons?

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Re: EFSF Zeta-era Garrisons

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Sun May 01, 2016 9:00 pm

Zeonista wrote:The EFSF, like all military forces answerable to representative governments, must make do with the items it has within its budget. Yeah, yeah, AE and Pezun can show off all the latest toys, but that is not for you, trooper! The realities of trying to protect everything in the Earth Sphere at once against Zeon Rmnants lurking in the shadows would necessarily entail modernizing a lot of MS that are not even close to RX/MSZ levels of coolness. In 0085-87 a lot of OYW-era MS are not that far out of date, and with some minor tweaks would still be viable defensive units against Zeon Remnant forces equipped with nothing beyond 0083 designs.
Actually, basically every machine used by Zeon remnants before Axis arrival to the Eartht Sphere are 0079 designs. The MS-06F2 is said to have been a OYW mid-war update, and the MS-14F seems to have been intended as a non modular space use Gelgoog variant. Even the Neue Ziel is said to have been designed during the OYW, but not built at the time. This leaves us odd ducks such as the Stuzer series or the Gerbera Tetra. However, that's hardly a problem when units such as the Gelgoog series still out match most GM types among the EF ranks.

Let's not forget that the EF's earliest attempt to replace the GM from its ranks is the Galbaldy Beta, essentially a Gelgoog built in Gyan production lines which was supposedly designed during the OYW as Zeon's MS-17B, and we are told was produced with minor changes over the original blueprints. It's main disadvantage is said to be its armor materials, titanium alloy like the original RGM-79 in contrast to the titanium/ceramic composite used by the GM II, Hizack and Gundam Mk II (the later is already considered to be using outdated armor materials by U. c. 0087) it's an even match for pretty much any pre-Gryps conflict MS around, including the RGM-79R and RMS-106, the later which it's supposed to match in combat performance.
Zeonista wrote:Given that situation at Jaburo in 0087, it really should not be a surprise that 0087-era MS should still be in use nearly a decade later. They have beam rifles, linear seat cockpits, enough Gundarium armor to take a glancing hit or a hit at long range, and a thrust-to-weight coefficient that keeps them in the game with a capable pilot at the controls. What is the real difference between a Re-Zel and a Zeta Plus for an EFF commander deploying his garrison? What is the real tactical difference between a GM III, a Nero, and a Jegan with an augmentation pack? It's more like in 0093 the Neo Zeon forces had finally achieved technological parity with the EFSF forces across the board with the Geara Doga (and subsequent Geara Zulu) and the mishmash of trial designs from 0087-88 could be relegated to the reserves and volunteers.
Actually, the Geara Doga and Geara Zulu are essentially conservative designs from between U.C. 0087-0089: the Geara Doga is said to be "not a high performance unit from a previous Neo Zeon movement", while the manual description of the Geara Zulu goes to great lengths to basically avoid calling the Geara Zulu an upgrade over the Geara Doga. Considering the dire situation of the later Neo Zeon movements, it's not surprising that these groups were more inclined to choose machines with a high cost-performance ratio instead of high performance units for their mainstay MS. This is best reflected on how basically every Axis/Neo Zeon MS, including mass produced units, use Gundarium Gamma alloy for their armor materials, yet the Geara series switches back to titanium/ceramics composite, reserving Gundarium for the one of a kind prototypes.
Zeonista wrote:I think there is also a tendency to balance all MS in a given Gundam series, either UC or AU, by the chief hero MS on both sides in terms of quality and efficiency. This goes double in UC, where all the gaiden stories makes one think Gundam's and psychommu mobile armors are commonplace! But, with a bit of perspective one can step back and see that in UC the amount of cutting edge ZOMG powerful MS/MA are very small, and much of the soldiering is done by MS pilots who feel pleased at getting something with a beam weapon, some real thrust output, and a 360-degree view for when the Minovsky fog of war settles in.
I wouldn't go that far: in the very first episode of Zeta Gundam we see how desperate the GM II pilots feel when engaging the trio of Rick Dias, literally saying that they are hopeless against them using their outdated GMs. Taking a time leap to U. C. 0123, even the high mobility Jegans are unable to put a decent fight against the Crossbone Vanguards new miniaturized MS.

We do see some examples of tactics working in some cases, such as in 0088 when the different groups of Zeon remnants armed with obsolete Zakus and other OYW units bring much grief to the AEUG's Gundam team, so even a MS armed with only a ballistic machine gun and sometimes even without a panoramic monitor (the later is actually quite uncommon as many old MS do seem to have received that among other upgrades over the years) can still put up a fight decades after the OYW against the newest units.

Sadly, at the same time we also see examples of high end MS end up in the hands of incompetent pilots, which was frequently the case of most of the new machines deployed by Axis/Neo Zeon during the 1st Neo Zeon War. Units like the Gaza D and Ga-Zowmn had everything goes in their favor to outshine other mass produced MS of their time, yet have been forgotten as generic grunts/cannon fodder.

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Re: EFSF Zeta-era Garrisons

Post by JEFFPIATT » Sun May 01, 2016 11:06 pm

EFSF Pilot wrote:The Jaburo Garrison is an interesting force of obsolete mobile suits. Was the original GM production plant or project V. development areas still operational by 0087? The soldiers at Jaburo had to know something was up with the base being emptied and their position under siege by the AEUG. Did the common EFSF soldiers that escaped from the nuclear attack join the AEUG after being left to die by the Titans?
the best guess is that it was 50/50 as we only see two EFF transport aircraft get out before it bomb went off one under Karabia control and another commanded by titans allied EFF personnel.

The Gouf Flight Types we seen at jabero seem to have been reconfigured in to Dom like hover ms. Jabero seemed to still nave an MS R&D factory there and post war could have been toying with the leftover earth confugyred ms prototypes trying to get them to work and if there tech could be applied to future Federal ms like the RMS-106 we do see that the MSM-01/MS-06M Zaku II Merine type options parts were applied to early hi-zack frames and later enhanced to give the EFN more modern units. The production runs on the RMS-117 Galbaldy-β and MS-11 Act Zaku productions runs in addition to being quick cheap replacement units as R&D was mostly done they also acted as new sources of test data for future federal ms. The Beta was moare common due to being major EFSF military station opted to keep producing and issuing that model to stationed ships rather than issue hi-zacks or GM II units.The GM II was still an common ms due to the grypts base deciding to make an new run normal EFSF forcers to use along with titans staff whoukd object to useing an hi-zi-zack.

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Re: EFSF Zeta-era Garrisons

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Mon May 02, 2016 12:47 pm

JEFFPIATT wrote:I would not argue that point the explanation we got for the RGM-79R and the RMS-106 being commissioned was due to the post OYO Federal government being broke after paying the war reparations and rebuilding the damage from the war.midway in 0083the new production RGM-79 units are built to the C spec designed by the Luna II factory with holes in the fleed being filled by captured and Prize of war zeon ms. after the terrorist attack by diaz fleet the Titans were formed an seeming had the lions share of the military budget and tended to restrict what new equipment the normal forces could get expecially after having entire ships defect to the AEUG.
It's hard to tell the precise point the EF government began having financial problems. In 0083 it appears that the military still us a high budget considering how many brand new ships are around, including the Salamis Kai (0083), the Albion, the Tribune (Albion's sister ship) and the Birmingham, not to mention minor refits like the Columbus Kai and Magellan Kai.

My guess is that after the OYW, the EF wanted to go back to its gunship-based military formations, as evidenced by the lack of MS carriers and the minor very minor update the GM Kai units provided over the original model. Speaking of the GM Kai, I actually wonder how many GMs actually got upgraded/replaced by RGM-79C units, specially on Earth. While we see a bunch of them in space, in the ground we really only see a few units at Torrington, which Mark once pointed out had been recently added to the base before the events of 0083, even suggesting that the original garrison of the base might have consisted on Zaku F2 units and no GMs at all. After all, we are told that compared to the vanilla MS-06F, the F2 type was more on par with the GM and supposedly that was one of the reasons the EF pushed the development of the Hizack later on. More importantly, the units at Torrington might have only been sent there for the sake providing testbeds and/or a source of spare parts for the Powered GM prototypes that were being tested at the base.
JEFFPIATT wrote:my best guess as to what the standerd EFSF forces had to deploy could be guessed by the AEUG line up of RGM series ms.The RGC-83 GM Cannon II, RGM-79N GM Custom, RMS-179 (RGM-79R) GM II, and possabilty some zaku II types refitted with hi-zack parts like the MS-06E Recon Type Zaku, The RMS-117 Galbaldy-β, seemed to be an subistute unit for the Hi-zack issued to ships deployed out of luna II who produced it based on leftover Zeon development data.
There might have been a few RGM-79N and RGC-83 left among the EF forces by U.C. 0087, but from the beginning we are told these are special forces units produced in limited numbers. Going back to the Zaku F2, it seems the EF do wanted to keep yet among its forces, but the production lines at Granada were destroyed by the end of the line and this meant that the EF couldn't produce more units, nor spare parts for the units they did have. Again this is probably among the reasons the EF pushed to develop their own Zaku F2 like MS, the Hizack, using their own technology. The other Zaku types used by the EF were a mixed bag: some we could assume were simply refit with panoramic monitors, but largely remained the same OYW base machine, while others could have received more extensive modifications. The RMS-117 is simply the MS-17B from Pezun with some minor changes. This allowed the unit to be quickly put into the frontlines, but in the long run it also meant that by U.C. 0087 it was considered more outdated than MS using titanium/ceramic composite, despite having the overall same level of performance.
JEFFPIATT wrote:Post first Neo-zeon war had to be an exciting time for the backwater garasions as part of the merger of the AEUG and Kalarba was getting there Fleet of AE built MS to fill the gaps left by the political decommissioning of all RMS series ms based heavenly on zeon tech externally The Nemo being an good unit to aquire as it was the basis for Londo Bell's RGM-89 Jegan. we also see GM II and GM III units fitted with recovered componants from older RGM-79 specialist units from the oyo like the GM II semi striker and yarzan's GM III with parts from the RGM-79V GM Night Seeker i
I'm curious on how much actually the Nemo influenced the Jegan series, specially given how we are told that the MSA-003 is essentially Zeon MS with the skin of a GM, pretty much the result of the complaining of AEUG pilots that didn't like the "zeonic look" of the MSA-002, the Marasai, which was the original proposal for the AEUG's mainstay MS.

From what we know, the Barzam, which was developed as the replacement of the GM II and had more in common with the GM line than the Nemo, should have been used as reference for later EF MS, specially considering its cost performance ratio: it was supposedly better than a Nemo or Marasai, but only costed 1.5 times as much as RMS-179, plus it could use already available equipment from the GM and Hizack series.

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Re: EFSF Zeta-era Garrisons

Post by JEFFPIATT » Tue May 03, 2016 9:20 am

Gelgoog Jager wrote:
JEFFPIATT wrote:I would not argue that point the explanation we got for the RGM-79R and the RMS-106 being commissioned was due to the post OYO Federal government being broke after paying the war reparations and rebuilding the damage from the war.midway in 0083the new production RGM-79 units are built to the C spec designed by the Luna II factory with holes in the fleed being filled by captured and Prize of war zeon ms. after the terrorist attack by diaz fleet the Titans were formed an seeming had the lions share of the military budget and tended to restrict what new equipment the normal forces could get expecially after having entire ships defect to the AEUG.
It's hard to tell the precise point the EF government began having financial problems. In 0083 it appears that the military still us a high budget considering how many brand new ships are around, including the Salamis Kai (0083), the Albion, the Tribune (Albion's sister ship) and the Birmingham, not to mention minor refits like the Columbus Kai and Magellan Kai.

My guess is that after the OYW, the EF wanted to go back to its gunship-based military formations, as evidenced by the lack of MS carriers and the minor very minor update the GM Kai units provided over the original model. Speaking of the GM Kai, I actually wonder how many GMs actually got upgraded/replaced by RGM-79C units, specially on Earth. While we see a bunch of them in space, in the ground we really only see a few units at Torrington, which Mark once pointed out had been recently added to the base before the events of 0083, even suggesting that the original garrison of the base might have consisted on Zaku F2 units and no GMs at all. After all, we are told that compared to the vanilla MS-06F, the F2 type was more on par with the GM and supposedly that was one of the reasons the EF pushed the development of the Hizack later on. More importantly, the units at Torrington might have only been sent there for the sake providing testbeds and/or a source of spare parts for the Powered GM prototypes that were being tested at the base.
It dosent help that the info written when zeta came out explaining why the federation was deploying zeon leftovers and enhanced zeon/federal hybrid ms and refitted old gm's was due to the federation being low on funds only for 0083 to come oui and to make it's plot work the fedration had the budget to built an entire new fleet of modernized battleships along with an entire new line of GM units based on Luna II's late war C Type model. it doen's help that due to animation streamlineing we got an uniform fleet of mooks causign the EFSF to deploy only GM type C units and Diaz fleet only having top line units and not what random units an Remanent fleet would have. it wasn't until Unicorn we got an more realistic look of an EFF military force where 20 yr old units are still in service due to either no replacement for it's role existing or the base is so backwater it's not priority to get top line units so an bunch of refurbie GM's like the GM II and would still have some Gm cannons with Gm II parts fitted in to bring it up to date. Then again the AEUG may have gotten some Federal ms that was rerouted from being sent to the reserve fleet in addition to what ever was in the Hanger bays of the Sallimus kai's who's crews defected. as for the 0083 ms Cameos added to the Recut films my guess is that the 0083 description had the very limited runs on the RGC-83 and the RGM-79N to explain why they weren't in zeta the Quell had the better excuse as the titans may have scrapped the retired unitsa rather than reserve fleet them to keep them out of AEUG Hands.

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Re: EFSF Zeta-era Garrisons

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Fri May 06, 2016 4:53 pm

I'm no longer convinced that the RGM-79C did end up replacing the original RGM-79 in all fronts as previously believed. At most it might have become the main MS of the space forces, something hinted in MS Igloo by having a large number of GM Kais participate in the final battles of the war.

In U.C. 0081 the EF's ground forces seem to still be using the original RGM-79: Zeon remnants group "The Invisible Knights" only has at first a custom Zaku I, but begin their activities stealing a MS-06J and a RGM-79B from an EF forces Medea convoy, and most of the enemies you run into during the earliest missions are also RGM-79B. Maybe the RGM-79B units were used on Earth while the RGM-79C was used on space after the OYW?

From a logistical point of view this doesn't seem like a bad idea, after all we already stated that the C-type was produced exclusively at Luna II, while production of the B-type took place all across Earth. Besides, we also stated that one of the reasons the EF adopted Zeon MS among their ranks was due to the convinience of using the captured MS production lines as they were. Keeping the B-type and C-type production lines separated due to the location of their production lines would follow such way of thinking.

Plus, it would still fit with later variants of the C-type being tested in space, while the RGM-79R based on the model available on Earth could be developed at Jaburo in the meantime. Like I mentioned in my previous post, the exception would be the units sent to Torrington, which more likely were there solely due to the development and testing of the GP01 (and Anaheim Electronics probably used one of the C-types available at hand for their GP01 mock machine, the Powered GM).

The situation of the Delaz fleet may seem odd, but could have a few potential explanations. For starters, you might remember me mentioning that the EF did seemed interested on keeping the Zaku F2 among their ranks, but couldn't due to the loss of the production lines at Granada. It just so happens that after the Delaz fleet abandoned A Baoa Qu, they left for Granada, where all the Zeon forces that left for Axis gathered before leaving. If I'm not mistaken, it should also be where the production lines of the Rick Dom II should be located at. The improved Musai Late Production Type cruisers could have a similar origin.

Therefore, Delaz probably seized the units he would use 3 years later at this opportunity. We do know from the few flashback scenes showing his forces during the OYW that his forces consisted of older Musai cruisers and standard MS-06F, MS-09R and MS-14A units. In the case of the MS-14 series, I could imagine Delaz deciding not to use them due to the unavailability of spare parts/equipment, something reflected on Cima's MS-14F units which rely on Zaku shields and ballistic machine guns instead of more scarce equipment such as beam rifles or Zulu shields.

As for the EF's situation in U.C. 0096, I'm actually inclined to saw it's more unrealistic than Zeta, at least as far as Dakar is concerned: in U.C. 0087 the defense forces of Dakar, the capital of the EF, included units such as RMS-108 and NRX-044, in fact is the only only animated instance where we see more than one Ashimmar in the entire series. In comparison, in U.C. 0096 the more advanced unit among the capital's defenses is the GM III, while we have seen how other EF groups have begun receiving Jegans, which at the time we could be considered as uncommon as the Marasai during Zeta.

Finally, regarding the high end 0083 units, the RGM-79N and the RGC-83, let's not forget that the Titans exclusive RGM-79Q is said to be a variant of the RGM-79N (maybe most remaining units, including RGC-83, were converted into Q-types?). Anyway, by U.C. 0087 it seems that they have been basically phased out in favor of the Hizack.

ChaoticSheep1
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Re: EFSF Zeta-era Garrisons

Post by ChaoticSheep1 » Sun May 08, 2016 11:39 pm

Curiously I wonder why the EFSF would even be interested in the Zeke F2 it seems like a very strange decision for the Earth brass. They already had the GM, I don't see the Zaku having that many advantages over the GM series.

I doubt the cost to performance ratio on the Zaku was even that great to begin with.

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Gelgoog Jager
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Re: EFSF Zeta-era Garrisons

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Mon May 09, 2016 6:36 am

Overall are Zakus are considered MS that can be kept operational with minimal maintenance, something widely observed by their long term use by Zeon remnants over 15 years after the end of the OYW.

Maybe I'm beating a dead horse here, but there do were mentions of the first GMs having problems, named a result of their rushed development and production, but also because the Gundam's data, while being a great asset to inexperience pilots, also likely pushed the GMs too hard despite having lower quality parts and specs than the Gundam.

I'm not 100% sure on the cost of a Zaku II, but essentially we are led to believe that the Dom series is more expensive to produce due to its new hovering system and extra armor/size, while later on we are told that one of the main advantages of the Gelgoog is that its cost is not much higher than a Zaku II, which makes it sound like a rather good deal, specially considering that armor aside, it performed as well or better than the Gundam.

As for the specific case of the MS-06F2, it was said to be an overall upgrade over the standard F-type and its performance was more on par with the GM. It was also supposedly a good machine for training rookie pilots and had the maintenance advantages of its predecessor.

But ultimately let's not forget that the most important reason was simply a matter of convinience: the EF had just lost a large number of MS at the end of the OYW (we are even told that Zeon had more forces left than the EF after the battle of A Baoa Qu) and had a large bunch of captured Zeon MS and facilities to produce them, so they simply decided to use those instead. After all, we already stated that prior 0083 the focus of the EF was to retain their gunship doctrine and rebuild their fleet, leaving MS as a secondary thought, a fact reflected in the lack of MS support facilities in most of their new ships at that point. As such, an easy to mantain MS such as the F2-type probably fitted well with such military structure in mind, plus at the time most EF MS were still using ballistic weapons, so there was not such a large difference between using a Zaku or a GM at the time, specially by the majority of inexperienced pilots at the time.

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Re: EFSF Zeta-era Garrisons

Post by JEFFPIATT » Tue May 10, 2016 8:03 am

ChaoticSheep1 wrote:Curiously I wonder why the EFSF would even be interested in the Zeke F2 it seems like a very strange decision for the Earth brass. They already had the GM, I don't see the Zaku having that many advantages over the GM series.

I doubt the cost to performance ratio on the Zaku was even that great to begin with.
The best analog to this dispute between the AR-15 and the AK-57 sereis of firearms. to quote the mahq profile "The Hi-Zack proves to be a popular model among pilots, as it is easy to operate and maintain." and the Zaku II F2 profile. " After the war, many F2 remain in service - some being retained by remnant Zeon forces waiting for their revolution to restart, and some being captured by the Federation Forces and put to work as aggressor units in squadrons conducting pilot training and mobile suit field testing." Post OYO the earth federation wanted to integrate Zeon's technology in to future models of Federal MS and to fill out the recovered Military bases the EFTF pretty much kept what ever zeon had garrisoned there that was not destroyed only later sending RGM-79 units but for an good chunk of post 0080 cadets were trained on zakus witch proved easier to keep maintained due to being much simpler frames than the RX-78 derivative RGM-78 GM frame was. The RMS-106 was an logical extension combine the easy to operate and maintain MS-06 with the Advanced Tech out of the RGM-79 the result being the Anemic Hi-zack with an cheap power system only to able to charge one beam weapion but good enough to replace the ageing out F2 Zakus that had no spare parts due to the lines being trashed by the future axis forces on there way oui the MS-11 only survived due to the EFSF taking pezen intact in the process getting the galabaty data for Luna II to play with.

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