The Link Between The MS-09H And The AMX-009G

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Gelgoog Jager
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The Link Between The MS-09H And The AMX-009G

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:12 am

In the past I speculated that the MS-09H was probably connected to Axis/Neo Zeon, given that not only it seems to be using a variation of the beam cannon from the prototype Dreissen, but also because it's concept of increasing mobility by adding shoulder thrusters and its color scheme seemed similar to that of the MS-14J, another OYW MS that was upgraded in order to keep up with newer MS:

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/File:Ms-09h-beamcannon.jpg
http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/File:AMX00 ... lScan1.jpg

More recently, we got a glimpse at the AMX-009G used by Zeon forces on Mars by U.C. 0091, which incidentally "borrows" the same shoulder thrusters used by the MS-09H:

http://1st.geocities.jp/binhima2007/old ... h-001.html
http://hobby.dengeki.com/aoz/illust/reboot02-a/

But before discussing the relationship between these two, let's take a step back to the MS-09H's weapon. An interesting detail I hadn't noticed is that supposedly the standard AMX-009 is unable to operate the beam cannon of the prototype Dreissen, since it's tri-blade backpack doesn't seem to provide the enough power to use it, which justifies why the AMX-009G instead uses the older beam bazooka from the OYW:
The different type of backpack belongs to the Prototype Dreissen, which is supposed to use the mega bazooka at the top. It's supposed to the same one as the beam cannon used by Dowadge. It wasn't adopted because the melee-focused Tri-blade backpack does not provide enough power. The prototype backpack (or Ransel as they are called in the manual) has greater thrust and propellent capacity.
http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php? ... 20#p324921

This does raise another question: if the standard AMX-009 can't operate the beam cannon with it's generator output of 2,380 kW, should the MS-09H be able to operate a similar weapon with an output of just 1,440 kW?

There are some ways to go around this: for starters, let's consider that while the beam cannon is the MS-09H's lone beam weapon, the standard Dreissen has it's triple beam guns on both hands as well as its beam tomahawk/beam lancer, so perhaps the sum of all these weapons plus the beam cannon is what the Dreissen is unable to deal with.

Another possibility is that the official specs might be wrong, namely the 1,440 kW generator output of the MS-09H, after all, we already have a precedent of odd specs for this unit: the 2006 Gundam Encyclopedia indicated that the MS-09G and MS-09H actually had the same empty weight of 43.5 mt, while Mahq's profiles give the MS-09H a slightly higher base weight of 44.2 mt. Considering the size of the shoulder attachments, I'm inclined to think that they must add quite a bit of weight to the MS-09H, definitely more than just 700 kg and most certainly not something negligible.

Then, there's also the fact that the additional shoulder thrusters quite likely also need some additional generator output. Added to the fact that the MS-09H has a mysterious new large skirt vent not present on the MS-09G, I suspect that the MS-09H might indeed have a higher output generator, contrary to what the official specs indicate.

This leads me to my next question: if there was indeed a communication between Rommel and Axis forces, how did this happen?

Considering that Rommel or his forces perish against the Gundam team, before meeting the Axis forces that arrived to Earth, we can probably safely disregard the possibility that the information of the MS-09H was passed to Axis at a later point, which leaves us an off screen communication prior to the events of ZZ where Rommel forces engage the Gundam team.

My current theory is that Axis provided Rommel not only with the beam cannon and/or the components needed to upgrade a MS-09G into a MS-09H, but more likely (and more simply) they sent him a brand new MS-09H unit, which would also give justify why the MS-09H has a generator powerful enough to power its beam cannon.

As to how could it have happened: rather than actually meeting with Rommel forces, Axis/Neo Zeon could have simply sent a supply drop to Rommel's location. This would also justify why Rommel was able to identify the MSZ-006 as a "Zeta type", if we assume that they were also provided intel on newer MS.

Most importantly, the color scheme of the MS-09H seems completely out of place: it's not the one used by the base MS-09G, nor the one used by Rommel's MS-06D forces. It definitely doesn't fit with the whole desert warfare theme that Rommel enforces so much, and finally, it's not even his own color scheme, as indicated by his custom MS-06DRC:

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/zz-msv/ms-06drc.htm

Therefore I'm inclined to think that the MS-09H is indeed a similar machine to the MS-14J, an upgraded OYW MS developed by Axis, which was sent to Rommel in its current color scheme (which I already pointed out, si quite similar to the MS-14J's) alongside intel. the most likely candidates for these actions is the first group of Axis/Neo Zeon forces that descended to Earth before Haman's fleet.

That way, it can be justified why Neo Zeon forces have the data on the MS-09H even if the never actually rendezvous with Rommel's forces, while also providing some explanations for the MS-09H's beam cannon and its color scheme.

How does that sound?

ChaoticSheep1
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Re: The Link Between The MS-09H And The AMX-009G

Post by ChaoticSheep1 » Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:53 pm

It might be noncanon but in UC Climax if you choose Zeon during the OYW war you could end up down a path where you were part of an Axis advanced force sent to infiltrate North Africa and provide the local Zeon Guerilla's with upgrade parts for their MS as well as to unite them against the local Federation governments.

If I remember it correctly this happens around the Dakar speech. In the aftermath the Zeon Remnants manage to control a large swathe of North Africa.

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Gelgoog Jager
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Re: The Link Between The MS-09H And The AMX-009G

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:44 am

That's actually quite interesting. I do have heard about an Axis Advance Force that descended to Earth before Haman's fleet, though information on them is scarce:
Actually, the staff notes published in The Anime while ZZ was on the air claim that Haman sent two teams to Dakar as an advance force - the Rein Dragun team and the Louis Bazaar team, neither of which have ever been mentioned anywhere since. These would probably correspond to the two green Endras we see at Dakar and Kilimanjaro.
http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php? ... 18#p306192
U.C. 0088.06.06 Axis advance force descends to Earth
http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/timeline.php
Footnote 18: Axis Landing Operations
The official timeline for Gundam ZZ currently includes two separate events in which the Axis fleet dispatches advance forces to Earth. The early timeline published in Entertainment Bible 2 mentions only a single advance force, which descends to Earth on June 6 of U.C. 0088. This advance force is said to consist of a few space cruisers, which travel to Earth to establish alliances with local Principality remnants and prepare a beachhead for the main fleet. Although this event doesn't appear to be related to anything in the animation, the June 6 date may indicate that the editors intended it to parallel episode 14 of Gundam ZZ. According to the expanded timeline published in Data Collection 6, however, it takes place between episodes 19 and 20 of the series.

In addition to this initial advance force, the timeline in Data Collection 6 also says that a second landing operation takes place on July 13 of U.C. 0088, simultaneously with episode 22 of Gundam ZZ. No further details of this operation are provided.
http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/time ... footnote18

For some context, here are some other relevant dates from Mark's timeline:

U.C. 0088.10.12 The asteroid Axis arrives in the Earth Sphere.
U.C. 0088.10.15 The Axis forces ally themselves with the Titans.
U.C. 0088.11.16 AEUG and Karaba forces occupy the Federation Assembly building in Dakar, Senegal. Char Aznable informs the world of the truth about the Titans.
U.C. 0088.02.22 The AEUG annihilates the Titans fleet with the Gryps 2 colony laser. The AEUG loses the majority of its fighting strength, and Char Aznable is missing in action.
U.C. 0088.02.29 The Principality remnants based at Axis dispatch occupation forces to each Side.
U.C. 0088.06.06 Axis advance force descends to Earth
U.C. 0088.07.13 The Axis forces adopt the name Neo Zeon. The Neo Zeon flagship Sadalahn heads for Earth, and Neo Zeon mobile suits land on the planet. (Gundam ZZ episode 22)
U.C. 0088.08.01 The main Neo Zeon force begins an invasion of Earth. Judau Ashta rescues Elpeo Ple during atmospheric entry. (Gundam ZZ episode 23)
U.C. 0088.08.29 Neo Zeon occupies Dakar.

This "official timeline would indicate that if any Axis forces descended to Earth around the time of the Dakar speech, they would have remained on Earth for over 9 months before Neo Zeon finally managed to capture Dakar. However, Mark has pointed out how the official ZZ timeline is a mess, since it uses the airing dates of the episode for referencing the dates in the timeline, particularly resulting in some short events taking weeks in the timeline. Therefore Mark made a thread in which he proposed that rather than having the conflict last over 10 months as suggested by the official timeline, it might actually last just a few weeks. He further meshed the events of Gundam Sentinel to come up with this timeline:
March 1, U.C. 0088: Argama docks at Shangri-La.
March 13, U.C. 0088: Taskforce Alpha launches first attack on Ayers City.
March 17, U.C. 0088: Federation's Home Fleet launches second attack on Ayers City.
March 28, U.C. 0088: Ayers City surrenders. Argama docks at Granada.
March 29, U.C. 0088: Argama leaves Granada.
April 1, U.C. 0088: Neo Zeon fleet enters Earth's atmosphere, with Argama in pursuit.
April 2, U.C. 0088: New Desides seize control of orbital relay station Penta.
April 4, U.C. 0088: New Desides leave Penta to seize control of Dakar.
April 5, U.C. 0088: Taskforce Alpha completes its mission.
http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=15663

There's another piece of information from Mark's timeline that I want to point out:
Footnote 16: Axis and Neo Zeon
The timeline published in Entertainment Bible 2 says that the Axis forces adopt the new name of Neo Zeon on February 29, U.C. 0088, and most later publications have echoed this claim. However, this is contradicted by the Gundam ZZ animation.

In the animation itself, Axis leader Haman Karn first uses the name Neo Zeon in an address to her fleet in episode 22. The recent Encyclopedia of Gundam claims that the Axis forces adopt the new name on July 13, U.C. 0088, the date corresponding to episode 22. When the AEUG characters first hear the new name in episode 24, they are told that it represents the union of Axis with the Principality remnants on Earth, but presumably this alliance has already been established by the advance forces Haman has sent to Earth.
How does everything meshes up:

-We have two Axis/Neo Zeon advance forces that descend to Earth before Haman's main fleet led by the Sadalahn descend to Dakar.
-If and advance has already made contact with Principality remnants on Earth, it would justify the adoption of the Neo Zeon name earlier as well.
-I have also added the dispatch of the second advance for to match the adoption of the Neo Zeon name, but also to give them more time for their initial attack on Dakar. Besides, if Axis is already dispatching some forces to the other Sides, might as well also dispatch reinforcements for their Earth forces. this comes with the bonus that Axis is left with fewer defense forces, making Judau's infiltration of Axis and the subsequent attack of the Agama more credible.

Basically, I would propose this:

U.C. 0088.10.12 The asteroid Axis arrives in the Earth Sphere.
U.C. 0088.10.15 The Axis forces ally themselves with the Titans.
U.C. 0088.11.16 The first Axis advance force descends to Earth.
U.C. 0088.02.22 The Gryps War comes to an end
U.C. 0088.02.29 The Axis forces adopt the name Neo Zeon. Neo Zeon dispatches occupation forces to each Side and a second advance force is dispatched to Earth.
U.C. 0088.03.01 Argama docks at Shangri-La.
U.C. 0088.03.13 Taskforce Alpha launches first attack on Ayers City.
U.C. 0088.03.17 Federation's Home Fleet launches second attack on Ayers City.
U.C. 0088.03.28 Ayers City surrenders. Argama docks at Granada.
U.C. 0088.03.29 Argama leaves Granada.
U.C. 0088.04.01 The main Neo Zeon fleet enters Earth's atmosphere, with Argama in pursuit.
U.C. 0088.04.02 New Desides seize control of orbital relay station Penta.
U.C. 0088.04.04 During the day Haman Karn and Mineva Zabi arrive in triumph at Dakar. At night, AEUG and Karaba forces assault the reception hall. New Desides leave Penta to assist Neo Zeon forces at Dakar.
U.C. 0088.04.05 The Argama withdraws from the liberated Dakar. Taskforce Alpha completes its mission.

This way we have an Axis force that made contact with the Principality remnants on Earth even before the end of the Gryps War, possibly securing safe passage to Earth during the brief alliance between Axis and the Titans. They could have provided parts and/or MS to the Zeon remnants and perhaps also to the African Liberation Front. They link with the second advance force after the formation of Neo Zeon for attacking Dakar. By then, they have already infiltrated the city and have made contact with the Titans remnants as well, trying to form an alliance. Based on what we see in the animation, the forces capturing Dakar before the time Haman's fleet arrives only seem to include old Zeon Zaku II units, a Gallus J and a Zssa, or in other words, only MS from the Principality of Zeon and Axis. However, by the time Dakar falls and the parade for Minerva takes place, we also spot a Hizack and a base jabber among their forces. Anyway, it does seem that before Dakar falls, Neo Zeon consists only of Axis forces and Zeon remnants, but by the time it falls it already includes Titans remnants as well.

How does that sound?

ChaoticSheep1
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Re: The Link Between The MS-09H And The AMX-009G

Post by ChaoticSheep1 » Fri Feb 26, 2016 3:16 am

Good, Good.

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