UC MS Tech Back porting

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JEFFPIATT
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UC MS Tech Back porting

Post by JEFFPIATT » Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:29 am

The various forces in the UC era seem to be in the habit of back-porting tech from there newer models as refits to there older units. Zeon seems to have had many refits to bring old units up to be unable to the new models specs but they never seem to get far in deployment.
The first program out is the MS-05Q Zaku I witch was to take existing MS-05 units and refit Zaku II tech in to the frame the planned roll-out was 240 refits only to get 154 done. later the MS-06G Zaku II is developed to back port tech from the ms-07 gouf on to the j-type zaku frame conveniently the unit also uses the same shoulder shield as the yms-08A prototype suggesting that it's designed by the same team The UMP Zaku II refit the FZ type deos get some traction but was too late in to the war to get anywhere. the other UMP: units seem to be more production refinements than back ports to get zeons ms on the same parts and control system.
The Federation seems to have had better luck deploying there Refit programs the rgm-79R\rms-179 GM II was aimed at getting tech from the RX-78NT1 and Hi-zack installed on there older RGM-79A/B/C frames the CR type was more of an test unit than an true refit fitting with the powered GM line that installed GP01 tech in to C type frames. The RGM-86R GM III was an refit program that applied components from the RX-179 in to the older RGM-79R frame and some later units add the shield mount from it's replacement the RGM-89 Jegan but never gets an full upgrade. I don't think there are any more attempts to back port tech from an replacement ms in to the older units the RGM-89 refits do not have next gen units to get there tech from as there more like purely life extension refits with side units for support and high mobility roles only the J-type useing data from another ms line as it adds the shoulder armor and arm mounted grenade launcher from the zeta series of ms recycleing the engineering from the RG-Z the ms it beat and the RGM-109 Heavy-Gun was just the modern j-type Jegan parts and constructing an more modern frame for them as an compact ms. post uc 100 it looks like that method falls out of use with only test types being made with new tech in old frames and an few straight refits of old ms.

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Seto Kaiba
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Re: UC MS Tech Back porting

Post by Seto Kaiba » Fri Jan 29, 2016 11:25 am

JEFFPIATT wrote:The various forces in the UC era seem to be in the habit of back-porting tech from there newer models as refits to there older units.
That's a case of art imitating life.

When a new model or variant of military vehicle comes into service, usually technology from that new model is adopted by equipment already in service (or the old models are upgraded to match the new model's hardware completely).

Though, looking at it, not all of the programs you've identified here seem to be upgrades or fleet service life extension programs. Several seem to be either proof of concept or experimental units.


JEFFPIATT wrote:Zeon seems to have had many refits to bring old units up to be unable to the new models specs but they never seem to get far in deployment.
There are a lot of parallels drawn between the Principality of Zeon and Nazi Germany circa WW2... and this is one. Near the end of the war, the Nazi military brass had a bad case of "attention deficit OOO SHINY!" and were building new and progressively more bizarre weapons in smallish numbers rather than upgrade their existing weapons. (Sunrise hung a six-episode lampshade on this tendency called MS IGLOO.)


JEFFPIATT wrote:The first program out is the MS-05Q Zaku I witch was to take existing MS-05 units and refit Zaku II tech in to the frame the planned roll-out was 240 refits only to get 154 done.
Considering that the MS-06 outperformed the MS-05 in practically every respect, it's surprising the upgrade program managed to service more than half of the fleet before being suspended. That, I suspect, is more a case of the Zaku I being a rough, first blush design rather than a polished front line combat design.


JEFFPIATT wrote:later the MS-06G Zaku II is developed to back port tech from the ms-07 gouf on to the j-type zaku frame conveniently the unit also uses the same shoulder shield as the yms-08A prototype suggesting that it's designed by the same team The UMP Zaku II refit the FZ type deos get some traction but was too late in to the war to get anywhere. the other UMP: units seem to be more production refinements than back ports to get zeons ms on the same parts and control system.
The MS-06G doesn't appear to have adopted technology from the MS-07 Gouf though... it seems to have been a perfectly ordinary Zaku II that received some leg-mounted rocket engines to give it a bit more mobility on the ground. It's not said, but the vibe I get from this seems more like it was the proof-of-concept for the MS-09 Dom.

The MS-06FZ is an example of an upgrade, though it was as much an upgrade as an attempt to streamline production by standardizing parts across multiple mobile suit lines.
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Re: UC MS Tech Back porting

Post by JEFFPIATT » Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:03 pm

the description in MSV for the Zaku II G-type actually mentions that it was inspired by the Gouf oddly it specifically lists the B-type gouf but the amount of updated parts on it brings it to the A type spec as none of the internal armament is added only the leg rockets and an single gouf shoulder armor is externally added. the project seemed to be aimed at allowing the existing j-type frames to keep up with the newer goufs only to get aborted when the dom comes out and replaces both units. the upm was an odd project as the zaku II FZ was an pure refit bringing all of the j and f type zakus zeon got back up to an new standard while the rest were mid production design changes to replace non complaint parts to the new universal standard. most of the EFF refit projects were done mostly interwar allowing them to get more units dome as the ms weren't out in combat. the zaku I fared better in the B to Q conversion due to it being retired from active combat by the OYO most being used as worker units or backwater guard units the refit did restart on the zaku I late war but less than 30 got upgraded so we got zaku I units fighting side by side with gelgoogs and rick doms with there only upgrade being the Zaku II mg.

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Re: UC MS Tech Back porting

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Sun Jan 31, 2016 2:02 am

I'll address some of the cases mentioned here, as well as other ones:

MS-05B:

-MS-05Q: According to Mark's translation of the MSV-R, the MS-05Q program was launched essentially to please the ace pilots who preferred their MS-05B over the newer MS-06 series. I guess the ones upgraded at the end of the war might have been mainly due to the larger gap between the capabilities of the MS-05B and newer MS.

-MS-05L: It is worth mentioning that the MS-05L is essentially the result of California Base seeking to upgrade their most I obsolete machines. Given their long range support role, using a MS-05 frame instead of the frame of a newer MS didn't affect much, and allowed newer units to be on the frontline instead.

MS-06F:

-MS-06FZ: Said to be upgraded from the old MS-06F, which the later MS-06F2 made more obsolete.

MS-06J:

-MS-06JK: MSV-R introduced these units, which are simply MS-06J fitted with the backpack and shoulder shield of a MS-06K.

-MS-06V: In this case I'm actually referring to the units with cannon backpacks that have been appearing more and more often in videogames. That being said, the cannon backpacks doesn't like any of the ones know to be used by the MS-06K or MS-09K, but rather seem to be a custom model. On the other hand, the most recent version is depicted with standard Zaku arms, which ironically is quite similar in concept to the MS mode of the cancelled Hildolfr.

-MP-02A: I'm almost sure I read somewhere that the generators of the MS-06J retrieved from Earth were used for building these mobile pods. I'll have to dig the source to be sure though.

MS-06G:

-These doesn't seem to be upgraded from existing MS-06J units, but rather brand new machines. Much like the MS-07A, they are essentially stopgap units whose mass production ended up as soon as the proper MS-07B was ready for mass production, which itself ended up short as soon as the Zeon HQ decided to mass produce the Dom instead shortly afterwards.

MS-06K:

-Mark has mentioned that some of the most obscure background info on this unit suggests that it was supposed to have a beam cannon. It's unique head also seems to be based on the MS-14C and its legs look like those of the YMS-09, which means that this unit was supposed to be a hybrid of these new technologies using a Zaku frame as its base.

MS-14A:

-I wanted to mention that the profile of the MS-14C mentions that 122 kits for upgrading MS-14A into MS-14C were made. Incidentally, before the MS-14A was mass produced, all the MS-14S had already been upgraded into MS-14B or MS-14C.

MS-14BR/MS-14C-1A:

-A unit upgraded with the leg thrusters of a MS-06R unit. Incidentally, I wonder if the -1A of MS-14C-1A is similarly supposed to be related to the MS-06R-1A. The later was a minor update over the MS-06R-1,which among other things switched to an exchangeable fuel cartridge on the rear of the legs which could be more easily reloaded and refueled on the field, so in both cases it represents a improvement in the propellant storage department, and in both cases its for the leg section of these MS.

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Re: UC MS Tech Back porting

Post by JEFFPIATT » Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:04 am

the MS-06G Zaku II High Mobility Ground Type seems to be an odd duck as it's an zaku II with the data from the gouf applied to it. the new msv-r info basically has it as an short run model in vain of the space High mobilty units.

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Re: UC MS Tech Back porting

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:34 am

Well, while the 50+ production run of the MS-06G or MS-06R-1A may seem short, let's remember that the Gouf itself only had a production run of around 200 units before it was cancelled in favor of the Dom.

In most of this cases, the MS-06R-1, MS-06R-1A, MS-06G and MS-07A got mass produced mainly as stopgap units, since the forces on the frontlines desperately needed better MS than their outdated MS-06F and MS-06J.

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Re: UC MS Tech Back porting

Post by ChaoticSheep1 » Fri Mar 04, 2016 2:13 am

It would be handy if we had such figures for later MS down the line. How many Act Zaku's the Federation produced, how many Hizacks they built, how many Zaku's they managed to capture etc. It's like they kinda gave up.

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Re: UC MS Tech Back porting

Post by JEFFPIATT » Fri Mar 04, 2016 12:54 pm

Gelgoog Jager wrote:Well, while the 50+ production run of the MS-06G or MS-06R-1A may seem short, let's remember that the Gouf itself only had a production run of around 200 units before it was cancelled in favor of the Dom.

In most of this cases, the MS-06R-1, MS-06R-1A, MS-06G and MS-07A got mass produced mainly as stopgap units, since the forces on the frontlines desperately needed better MS than their outdated MS-06F and MS-06J.
The MS-06G looks like as part of the upgrade they half way rebuilt the California base Zaku II production lines to gouf spec and borrowed the new shoulder shield from the YMS-08A with the advantage that like the R seroes the fielded g type zakus would collect more data for the YMS-07.

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Re: UC MS Tech Back porting

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Fri Mar 04, 2016 1:34 pm

Actually, Mark has posted an interesting theory of how things probably happened:

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=14121

To put it shortly:

-About 30 units of the MS-07A were deployed during the 3rd landing operation, which took place on March 18th.

-Around the same time prototypes of the MS-07H are sent to Earth and testing takes place during the next couple of months.

-On May production of the the MS-06D begins. This machine borrows technology from the Gouf (namely the leg thrusters and antenna) and is also considered a stopgap unit while the Gouf was in development. Essentially the MS-06G is on a similar spot, also being a stopgap unit borrowing technology from the Gouf.

-On June, the accident with the MS-07H-4 results in the cancellation of the MS-07H project.

-On July the MS-07B is first deployed. Mark suspects that it put into production at this point due to the failure of the MS-07H project, which led Zeon to choose using the MS-07B & Dodai YS combo instead.

So essentially, after the initial batch of MS-07A units, the MS-06D and MS-06G were developed while Zeon was pushing the MS-07H project, but when the later failed, the MS-07B was put into production instead, leading to the cancellation of the MS-06G.

Perhaps if the MS-07H project had been successful at that point, it would have been mass produced and the MS-07B would have never been produced at all.

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