The Dawning of Dom

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jeffpiatt2004
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Re: The Dawning of Dom

Post by jeffpiatt2004 » Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:47 pm

Evex wrote:It might help to look at this in a different view point.

Looking through the MAHQ profiles of the mentioned suits I think I pieced together something that makes a bit of sense of how the MS-08B fits into the development history.

I believe Zimmad started testing of the dom series using the MS-07C-5 Gouf Test type. This eventually was developed into the two YMS-08B demonstration units. In order to demonstrate the suit capabilities they converted a standard configuration by modifying a MS-06F Zaku II, along with an improved version using the body from the MS-07C-5 Gouf Test type.

In the end the alternate version body type was selected going on forward, and this was further developed into the YMS-09 Dom prototype, which eventually became the MS-09 Dom. The spare demonstration YMS-08B was then given the head and shoulder armor of a regular Zaku II and then re-designated the MS-06RD-4 Zaku II RD 4 Type (prototype High mobility Zaku) to test out the leg thrusters for the rick dom. The reason the demonstration type is most likely refereed to as the YMS-08B is due to the fact the alternate configuration uses the same body type as Zimmads YMS-08A high mobility prototype, which was rolled into the YMS-07A Prototype Gouf project earlier.

Edit: thinking about things I just realized something. In animation we see the MS-06RD-4 Zaku II RD 4 Type (prototype High mobility Zaku) around the time of Garma Zabi's funeral. The MS-09 Dom isn't seen until operation odessa in animation. If I remember my dates right Garma's funeral was october 6 0079 and the battle of odessa began november 7 0079. I think I know what might be going on, or I have a theory.

We assume the MS-09 dom and ms-09R rick dom were developed separately of each other, but what if the two mobile suits were being developed at the same time. Zimmad in order to test things develop two prototypes these being the MS-06RD-4 Zaku II RD 4 Type (prototype High mobility Zaku) and the MS-07C-5 Gouf Test type. The Zaku II RD 4 is designed to test out the configuration of thrusters meant to be used on the MS-09R Rick Dom, while the Gouf Test Type tests the configuration of thrusters meant for the MS-09 Dom. Eventually both units are re-designated as YMS-08B Demonstration types, with the standard version receiving parts from the proto type gouf, being used to demonstrate the rick dom, while the alternate version, receiving parts from the RD 4 Zaku II, is used to demonstrate the dom capabilities.

Once Zeon approves of the design the project is reclassified under the YMS-09 model number and Zimmad develops the prototype dom. The initial role out of the MS-09 Dom begins around the time ramba ral's gouf has been destroyed, and at the same time the MS-09R Rick dom is rolled out in space.
That development history makes sense Zimmad seemed to be subcontracted by zimmed in some form for zaku and gouf production the test models for the yms-09 are zaku and gouf torsos with prototype dom parts the RD-4 unit is an zaku f-type upper body attached to an finalized rick dom leg unit the advantage to using the zaku and gouf components would be due to most of zeons test corps being already used to the zeonic cockpit setup the yms-09 would have optimized the controls the doms use case and would eventually be standerized by the ump. The dreissan would have been based on the rick dom II witch had an colony use config where it had some form of both the hover jets and the space use rocket systems. Axis was at the same disadvantage Zeojn was in during the one year war there earth use ms could only be tested under simulated earth conditions there land use ms tended to work well the only biome they lost tech know how on was aquatic hence why when axis made earth fall they relied on capturing EFF RMS units and rallying the remains of the Old zeon earth attack force and foreign legion and there remaining earth use ms battalions late in the war Zeon did do the ms-09G Dwadge basically an equilvent to to the R2 and it's field refit using EFF tech the MS-09H production on the Dwadge like the Rick Dom II seemed to be limited due to not only to being an late introduction to the production lines as with the R2 the H type would have been cutoff when zeon was chased off earth with maybe and few HLV units being sneaked past the orbital defense line as last minute aid to the stranded EDF troops possibly with the few early ground use gelgoogs

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Gelgoog Jager
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Re: The Dawning of Dom

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:02 pm

Two quick comments:

-The YMS-08A is not designed by Zimmad, bit rather is said to be a designed that was cooked UP by Zeon engineers on the field.

-I'm still trying to figure how to add up the EMS-10 to this new development chart, specially if we assume that the Zudah may be supposed to be also operational on Earth, based on its EMS-04 origins (as the competition of the MS-05A) and Oliver May's comments regarding it helping the worsening war situation on Earth.

In an ironic turn of events, I think the Zudah could have been a better choice over the standard Rick Dom, which is usually considered to have poor maneuverability in space and whose thick armor is rather useless against a GM's beam spray gun. All it would have taken would be fixing the engine overload problem (although MS Igloo makes it seem that the basic GM is prone to the same problem under similar conditions).

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Re: The Dawning of Dom

Post by toysdream » Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:48 pm

Regarding the relationship of the MS-06RD-4, MS-07C-5, YMS-08A, and YMS-08B, I feel like I need to repeat this point:

The development history is apparently being rewritten as part of the "Mobile Suit Discovery" project, so previous information based on the MSV series - and on fan speculation, which is all we've ever had for the MS-06RD-4 - is no longer valid. If you try to mush all the old and new stuff together, you'll end up with a mess of contradictions.

Here's the current version of the MSD development history, which seems to be undergoing periodic revisions:

http://www.gundam-the-origin.net/msd/images/flow.jpg

As I've mentioned, this chart shows a Zimmad development line that starts with the MS-06RD-4 High Mobility Prototype Zaku (for space use) and the MS-07C-5 Gouf Test Type (for ground use). The C-5 evolves into the YMS-08A High Mobility Prototype, which then leads to the YMS-08B Dom Test Type, which has both ground and space versions - the space type inherits data from the RD-4. These are all Zimmad machines, of course.

In this new development history, the YMS-08A has no relation to the development of the Gouf.

-- Mark

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Re: The Dawning of Dom

Post by AmuroNT1 » Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:13 pm

Interesting that they've added a YMS version of the Efreet to the chart.
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Re: The Dawning of Dom

Post by jeffpiatt2004 » Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:03 am

Gelgoog Jager wrote:Two quick comments:

-The YMS-08A is not designed by Zimmad, bit rather is said to be a designed that was cooked UP by Zeon engineers on the field.

-I'm still trying to figure how to add up the EMS-10 to this new development chart, specially if we assume that the Zudah may be supposed to be also operational on Earth, based on its EMS-04 origins (as the competition of the MS-05A) and Oliver May's comments regarding it helping the worsening war situation on Earth.

In an ironic turn of events, I think the Zudah could have been a better choice over the standard Rick Dom, which is usually considered to have poor maneuverability in space and whose thick armor is rather useless against a GM's beam spray gun. All it would have taken would be fixing the engine overload problem (although MS Igloo makes it seem that the basic GM is prone to the same problem under similar conditions).
Last i checked the only diffrence between the EM S-10 and the EMS-04 is an change of paint the propaganda arm of Zeon dragged out of Zimmad's Warehouse the EMS-04 and Assigned it an new model code to pass it off as an new super unit like the real world case of the Heinkel He 113 witch was reall an He 100 D-1 with an black paint job. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_113 it was an paper tiger meant to break EFSF morale only to fail due to the EFSF own propaganda and esponige arms easly fugureing out that it was the same model being promoted as an new unit. the EMS-10 zuda still has an nasty habat of exploding when an unit floors the backpack. The first fixed unit for production ended up useing gyan parts and an improved limiter.

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Re: The Dawning of Dom

Post by toysdream » Sat Jan 16, 2016 10:09 pm

Following up on a couple things...

Thanks to Gelgoog Jager for the MSiA flashback! I suppose, since the Rick Dom's thrusters were depicted onscreen in Gundam III, there's not much leeway for reimagining those. But the ground version is mysterious and open to interpretation. The MG kit just recycled the same parts for both versions, but that's hardly the only possibility.

On the whole, since the Dom Tropen can't use leg thrusters at all and the Xamel only has foot (and trailer) thrusters, it seems pretty clear that the foot nozzles are all you need to hover. The Dom and its variants often use back thrusters for faster movement, but the skirt and leg thrusters are only rarely used. It's likely that, as with the Zock, these are intended only for jumping and not for regular movement.

As for the Zudah, it's interesting that - unlike the MSV series, 08th MS Team, and even Blue Destiny - nothing from MS Igloo has been acknowledged at all in the Mobile Suit Discovery materials. Come to think of it, I don't think there were any MS Igloo cameos in the Build Fighters series, which managed to reference virtually everything else in the Gundam family (even the infamous G-Saviour). Is there some kind of anti-Igloo trend here?

-- Mark

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Re: The Dawning of Dom

Post by Wingnut » Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:28 am

Not entirely. A Zudah did appear in part 3 of Gunpla Builders in non-CG form vs. Kenta's white Sazabi and the Beargguy before getting vaped by the Beginning 30.
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Re: The Dawning of Dom

Post by Massignifico » Sun Jan 17, 2016 6:36 am

Zudah appeared in Build Fighters too, in the race episode, using a basejabber.

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Re: The Dawning of Dom

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:03 pm

jeffpiatt2004 wrote:Last i checked the only diffrence between the EM S-10 and the EMS-04 is an change of paint the propaganda arm of Zeon dragged out of Zimmad's Warehouse the EMS-04 and Assigned it an new model code to pass it off as an new super unit like the real world case of the Heinkel He 113 witch was reall an He 100 D-1 with an black paint job. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_113 it was an paper tiger meant to break EFSF morale only to fail due to the EFSF own propaganda and esponige arms easly fugureing out that it was the same model being promoted as an new unit. the EMS-10 zuda still has an nasty habat of exploding when an unit floors the backpack. The first fixed unit for production ended up useing gyan parts and an improved limiter.
Actually I decided to start a topic on this particular subject:

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=16829

You right in regards of the EMS-04 and EMS-10 supposedly being the same machine except for some external differences. But as I mention in the other thread, from what we could observe the GM might in a very similar situation, namely with the result of 4 GMs pursuing a Zudah, with the result being 3 HMs breaking apart during pursuit and the 4th unit bailing out earlier due to engine problems. In other words, I think the GM and Zudah have similar limitations, but while Zeon decides to choose the Zaku over it, the EF sticks with it and most likely is able to keep them in working order thanks to its my CB better logistics and available resources.

Back on topic, ever since I saw the Recksnow from G Reconguista I began to wonder if the Zaku Cannon might have been intended to be like that: to have the hovering capabilities of a Dom (thanks to its YMS-09-like legs) and the mentions of it supposedly having a beam cannon, which Mark suspects might actually be the one it's usually depicted with.

If the MS-09B indeed has a similar thruster arrangement as the YMS-09 and MS-06K inside its leg armor, I'm inclined to think so, even if the smaller legs of the Zaku Cannon are not as good for hovering as the larger legs of Dom types.

As for the Dom and MS-07H relationship, the Gundam wikia claims that the background info from the YMS-09J indicates that it was developed using technology from the MS-07H, which if true would indicate a mutual benefit for both projects.

It is also worth noting that the YMS-09J seems to have been developed and/or tested at Europe, and much like the cold climate type Dom it seems to be based on Granada's MS-09B instead of California's MS-09A (YMS-09). Furthermore, we are told that the units seem to produce good results, but Zeon is unable to mass produce them due to the chaotic situation on Europe at the time.

My guess is that the surviving units, or at least their data, were sent to space after Zeon abandoned Odessa and they may have served for the development of the MS-09G. Compared to the YMS-09J, the Dwadge seems like a more conservative design, though it does have some traits such as the external skirt thrusters and the horizontal thrusters, so perhaps we could see the the Dwadge as a simplified YMS-09J with greater propellant capacity which remains as similar as possible to the MS-09B for ease of production (UMP compliance perhaps?). It should also be noted that at such point in time, Granada has probably already begun producing Rick Doms, and that could be the point at which ground use Doms begin incorporating calf thrusters, for the sake of standardization.

As a side note, the MS-09G is usually considered a desert use MS, and we are told that prior to its recapture by EF forces, California Base is still cranking out YMS-09D units, which further leads me to think that the MS-09G was developed and mass produced in space (most likely at Granada) and not on Earth at California Base.

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Re: The Dawning of Dom

Post by toysdream » Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:25 pm

I'm relieved to know that the Zudah hasn't been slighted in recent productions, even if it doesn't seem to be included in the MSD development history. The status of the MSV-R stuff remains to be seen, too; I guess the history of mobile suit development is becoming as contradictory and fragmented as the rest of the One Year War backstory. :-)

Speaking of contradictions, the MSV Collection File claims that the GM is more reliable than Zeon machines, with an 80% operational rate versus the Zaku's 60%. The animation doesn't give us any indication either way, so pick your poison, I guess.

The connection between the MS-07H and the YMS-09J seems to be limited to the backpack. Quoth the profile text, "...the development team obtained data from the previous MS-07H Gouf Flight Test Type development team, and based on this, they developed a jet propulsion pack equipped with movable stabilizers." I'm skeptical that the backpack is really jet-propelled since it doesn't have any air intakes, but there you go.

The Dwadge, even though it shows up in the desert in ZZ, is supposedly just designed for longer operating time - the Japanese sources never really mention anything about it being desert-specialized. According to the YMS-09J profile text, it was designed to achieve higher speeds and faster acceleration "while maintaining at least 90% of the current operating time," which is kind of the opposite goal.

-- Mark

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Re: The Dawning of Dom

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:14 pm

Alongside the Zudah, I would like the Hildolfr and Oggo to also get more mentions. The former for being an early alternative for the ground mobility problem of the Zaku series and the later for being a simplistic weapon that Zeon remnants could use and maintain.

Regarding the reliability of the GM, I have made a thread on the topic, in which I mentioned at least two instances which suggest that at least the original RGM-79A/RGM-79B did had some problems:

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=16829

Regarding the YMS-09J jet intakes, I think the ones on both sides of its skirt are jet thrusters, with the air intake being on the front of the MS. And speaking of jet intakes, the Dwadge also has jet intakes right on top of its back thrusters.

Now, I'm not very knowledgeable on jet engines, and as far as I understand they require the air intake to be looking forward to take air while moving around. But the red vents on the back of the YMS-09J looks suspiciously similar to the jet intakes of the hip jet engines, which makes me wonder if there might actually be a way for a jet engine to take air like that. Assuming there could be a way for them to work like that, could by extension we consider that the skirt vents on both the Dwadge and YMS-09J be supposed work similarly and be air intakes for their skirt thrusters?

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Re: The Dawning of Dom

Post by JEFFPIATT » Tue Jan 26, 2016 2:08 am

depends on your definition of jet engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_engine#Types ther are 12 kinds devided by sub types.
Airbreathing - split in to two types of engine
Gas Turbine powered- are rotary engines that extract energy from a flow of combustion gas. They have an upstream compressor coupled to a downstream turbine with a combustion chamber in-between. In aircraft engines, those three core components are often called the "gas generator." There are many different variations of gas turbines, but they all use a gas generator system of some type.

Ram powered - Ram powered jet engines are airbreathing engines similar to gas turbine engines and they both follow the Brayton cycle. Gas turbine and ram powered engines differ, however, in how they compress the incoming airflow. Whereas gas turbine engines use axial or centrifugal compressors to compress incoming air, ram engines rely only on air compressed through the inlet or diffuser. Ram powered engines are considered the most simple type of air breathing jet engine because they can contain no moving parts

Non-continuous combustion types


Motorjet Obsolete type that worked like a turbojet but instead of a turbine driving the compressor a piston engine drives it.
Pulsejet Air is compressed and combusted intermittently instead of continuously. Some designs use valves.
Pulse detonation engine Similar to a pulsejet, but combustion occurs as a detonation instead of a deflagration, may or may not need valves

Rocket - The rocket engine uses the same basic physical principles as the jet engine for propulsion via thrust, but is distinct in that it does not require atmospheric air to provide oxygen; the rocket carries all components of the reaction mass. This allows them to operate at arbitrary altitudes and in space.

Hybrid
Turborocket A turbojet where an additional oxidizer such as oxygen is added to the airstream to increase maximum altitude
Air-augmented rocket Essentially a ramjet where intake air is compressed and burnt with the exhaust from a rocket
Precooled jets / LACE Intake air is chilled to very low temperatures at inlet in a heat exchanger before passing through a ramjet and/or turbojet and/or rocket engine.

Water jet A water jet, or pump jet, is a marine propulsion system that utilizes a jet of water. The mechanical arrangement may be a ducted propeller with nozzle, or a centrifugal compressor and nozzle.
all of them work on the same science an air based jet requires an air intake.

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Re: The Dawning of Dom

Post by toysdream » Tue Feb 02, 2016 4:54 pm

I don't think it would work to have backwards-facing air intakes for a jet engine - the basic idea is that air is driven into the intake by the vehicle's forward movement, and then further compressed by a rotating fan prior to combustion. Aside from the MS-07H-8 Gouf Flight Type, and the dust filter-equipped Xamel and Dom Tropen, I can't think of many U.C. mobile suits that actually have visible forward-facing air intakes - otherwise we have to assume that the air is sucked in via some forward-facing gap in the armor.

Meanwhile, with the imminent release of the YMS-08B Dom Test Type kit, it does look like it has no skirt thrusters and only two small forward-facing thrusters on its legs. I'm inclining more and more to the idea that the skirt and leg thrusters were a last-minute addition to the production version of the Dom, and thus intended mainly for boosting and jumping rather than normal movement.

Incidentally, one other machine developed by Zimmad in the middle of the war also has a cluster of three thrusters in its pelvis that are used for extra jumping power - the MSM-03 Gogg. Could that be where they got the idea?

-- Mark

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Re: The Dawning of Dom

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:27 am

I could imagine a Dom type not needing the skirt and leg thrusters for hovering, but what about the Gelgoogs and other MS we see hovering on the ground? If I'm not mistaken they don't have hoverjets on their feet, so the skirt and calf thrusters would be the most likely candidates to provide such function, even if they are also used for performing jumps.

Perhaps a way to reconcile this would be for both systems to be capable of providing hovering capabilities, and the reason the MS-09B Dom has both is to have a secondary or backup system in case the other one becomes damaged during combat. After all, I imagine that a Dom that happened to loose its hovering capabilities in the middle of a battle would essentially become a sitting duck, most likely walking slower than Zaku II or Gelgoog.

By the way, I noticed that the MS-13 Gasshia has similar pelvis thrusters as the MSM-03 and MSM-06, while its legs have thrusters similar to those of the YMS-09 and MS-06K. I'm trying to find official linearart of its back to see if it has any other thrusters for performing jumps, but right now based on what can be seen from the front, I would be willing to consider that perhaps the MS-13 was supposed to have hovering capabilities, while borrowing the pelvis thrusters of the MSM series it's derived from for performing jumps.

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