The Dawning of Dom

The future is now. This is the place for mecha and science.
toysdream
Posts: 3250
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

The Dawning of Dom

Post by toysdream » Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:41 pm

Apologies for the strained pun, but I wanted to do my bit for the tradition of funny thread titles...

It's been kind of a weird few years for Universal Century scholarship, with very little fresh source material being produced, and a somewhat uneasy integration of the Origin back story into the animated continuity. And the recently launched Mobile Suit Discovery series, whose mandate is to fill in gaps in the mobile suit development history, has so far just made it even more complicated.

That said, I'm very much looking forward to the release of the YMS-08B Dom Test Type so that I can look up its skirts!


Let me back up a little. Recently, I was working on profile text translations for an upcoming Gundam game, and I noticed a throwaway reference to the Rick Dom having added thrusters in its skirt and legs. Recent model kits have depicted both the standard Dom and the Rick Dom as having these supplemental thrusters, but it turns out that a lot of game profiles (and the Japanese Wikipedia page) characterize them as a new feature added to the Rick Dom. And indeed, these first appeared in the new footage for the Gundam III movie as a unique feature of the Rick Dom and Gelgoog.

I've devoted a few previous threads to speculating about the possible output of these kinds of secondary thrusters, but right now I want to step back a bit and consider the question of their actual existence.

It's pretty clear, for example, that these thrusters aren't present in the standard Gouf or in the MS-07C-5 Gouf Test Type which was used to gather test data for the Dom. The MS-07C-5 does have a ring of vents around its legs, which resemble those on the YMS-09 Prototype Dom, but there certainly isn't room for anything similar in its skirt armor.

Interestingly, the Prototype Dom doesn't seem to have them either. Aside from the aforementioned vents, it has a single big thruster on the back of each leg, and its relatively streamlined skirt armor doesn't seem to have room for any thrusters. Katoki's Prototype Dom design for the Zeonography series has a bigger skirt with thrusters in it, and this feature is carried through to the Dom Cannon variant, but this is a distinct change from Okawara's original design.

In other words, the MS-07C-5 probably has some kind of leg thruster (inherited from the Gouf) and nothing in its skirt; the Rick Dom definitely has leg and skirt thrusters, in addition to those in its feet and backpack. But it's surprisingly hard to say at what point in its development these features were introduced.


Consider, if you will, some other examples. In First Gundam, we can clearly see thruster exhaust coming from the skirts and legs (and backpack and feet) of the Black Tri-Stars' Doms. Since these were delivered from space, rather than the California Base, it's possible that they're actually newer models that incorporate Rick Dom features.

The Dowadge from ZZ, of course, has the leg and skirt thrusters - it's one of the few cases where they're even listed in its specs.

The Dom Tropen, on the other hand, never had clearly depicted skirt thrusters until Gundam Unicorn. And due to the hovercraft "clogs" on its feet, even if it has thrusters in its legs, it couldn't use them.

The Pezun Dowadge, as designed, doesn't seem to have room for skirt or leg thrusters. But Katoki added them in his Zeonography design anyway. :-)

This is all complicated by the fact that Doms and Gelgoogs hardly ever use these supplemental thrusters. Char's Gelgoog, which has no backpack, obviously relies on its skirt thrusters for propulsion. But I don't think we've ever seen a Gelgoog using its leg thrusters in the animation, and versions with backpacks tend to use those thrusters instead (or, in some versions, the extra thrusters added to the tip of the skirt). For the most part, the skirt and leg thrusters are only used as the mobile suit rushes into combat, pushing it straight upward; they don't seem to be used for combat maneuvering. So we can probably think of them as boosters with a limited fuel supply, a bonus feature added as an afterthought to take advantage of the extra space within the mobile suit's flared armor.

So where does the YMS-08B fit into this pattern? We'll have to wait and see!

-- Mark

User avatar
JEFFPIATT
Posts: 792
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:44 pm
Location: Allentown, PA
Contact:

Re: The Dawning of Dom

Post by JEFFPIATT » Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:13 pm

the MS-07C-5 seems to have been an proof of concept for the doms new features and was quickly built from an gouf frame zimmad had from there wartime gouf production as the only changes to the body are to add the doms hover jets reat saber and the cross track monoeye once the bugs were worked out they built the YMS-09 for contention as the new earth theater mainstay unit. the MS-06RD-4 was the equivalent for the rick dom Zimmad took an spare ms-06 unit off the line and mounted the waist and legs from an Dom fitted with test type rick dom thruster arrays to get flight data the reasioning behind it being that zeon space force Pilots wuld not be used to an dom control system so an torso off an zaku would work and camouflage it as another Hi-mo Zaku II unit to the average EFSF onlooker.

toysdream
Posts: 3250
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: The Dawning of Dom

Post by toysdream » Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:40 pm

Some of that seems to be up the air after the changes made by the MSD series, though...

Source have disagreed whether or not the MS-07C-5 was supposed to test the Dom's movement systems. The old MSV books are pretty adamant that it does:
Of the tests performed using this C-5 type, the most important were high-speed movement using a new type of thruster engine, and testing of the heat saber. Thus, the backpack verniers were enhanced as much as possible, and supplemental thruster engines were also installed in the legs.
Based on that, it sounds like the C-5 type is supposed to have the same kind of nuclear thermal jet engine as the Dom, so that it can perform the same kind of hovering movement. However, when the MSV series was created, the prevailing view was that the Dom's jet engines were in its legs rather than the soles of its feet; the Prototype Dom kit manual, for example, identifies the vents on the sides of its legs as "hover jet nozzles", versus the "main rocket engine" on the back of its leg. At that point, the only indication that the Dom had a thruster on the sole of its foot was in the 1/100 and 1/144 model kits - these were never depicted in the animation, or in the MSV kits and their box art.

Given the current view that the Dom's hover jet is in the sole of its foot, it's harder to see how this could be incorporated in the MS-07C-5. It's possible, but the newly invented MS-08B, whose ground version includes the upper portion of the C-5, seems like a better testbed for hover testing because it actually has Dom legs.


Looking again at the MSD development chart, I just noticed that it says the YMS-08A is based on the MS-07C-5, and is the direct ancestor of the YMS-08B. I guess that makes sense in terms of the model numbers, but it completely contradicts the old MSV series, and kind of overturns everything we previously thought about the Gouf's development!

I note also that the ground version of the YMS-08B, although it has the head and backpack of the MS-07C-5, actually does recycle the cockpit section of the YMS-08A. It truly is a kitbash from hell...!

-- Mark

User avatar
Gelgoog Jager
Posts: 1687
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:09 pm

Re: The Dawning of Dom

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:04 pm

Comparing the MS-07C-5 to its closest brethren, the MS-07C-3, we can observe that the C-5 has visibly larger feet than the C-3:

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/MS-07C-3_G ... _Arms_Type
http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/MS-07C-5_G ... _Prototype

On the other hand, I'm inclined to think that both machines had a similar amount of jet thrusters on their leg armor, with the C-3 having 2 larger thrusters (than a MS-07B's) on each leg, while the C-5 had at least 4 per leg (each about as big as the MS-07B's).

The YMS-08A is actually an odd duck when you look at it closely:

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/YMS-08A_Hi ... _Prototype

It seems to have thin legs with the large jet thrusters simile to the C-3's, but it's feet doesn't quite resemble those of neither a Zaku or Dom. The way they look remind me of some MSM units actually.

On a somewhat related note, the mention of the YMS-09 reminded me of Mark's theory about the MS-06K possibly having been designed with ideas from several MS, including the MS-14C (head) and YMS-09A (legs), not to mention the fact that it was meant to even have a beam cannon at one point. I'm thinking that perhaps the MS-06K was actually meant to not only have a beam cannon, but also the hovering capabilities of a Dom type. After all, we have previously considered the possibility of California Base essentially developing only the YMS-09A and derived Dom units (YMS-09D, MS-09K-1 and MS-09K-2), skipping altogether production of MS-09B derived units.

In such case it wouldn't be surprising that the calf thrusters of the MS-09R (produced at Granada) are only present on MS-09B derived units, such as the MS-09G.

User avatar
JEFFPIATT
Posts: 792
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:44 pm
Location: Allentown, PA
Contact:

Re: The Dawning of Dom

Post by JEFFPIATT » Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:36 am

The YMS-08A High Mobility Test Type seems to be an supped up zaku II done by the field staff as an concept test built using some information on the YMS-07A as an alternative final unit supported by the MAHQ profile who listes it as being built by Principality of Zeon (field engineers) conveniently this type of synergistic development happend in real life as with the world war II era Jeep the first prototype was the BRC (Bantam Reconnaissance Car) 40 followed by Willys Quad and the Ford Pygmy as part of an war department trial the three prototypes were merged in to the final MB jeep.the leed up to the MS-09 seems to be going that way the YMS-08A and YMS-07A project were merged together to form the final YMS-07B unit Zimmid took the existing Gouf body frame and used it to mount test model components for there later Dom prototype like the Federations powered GM test units the non standerd parts are housed externally on the unit with the bare amount of changes to the MS-07C body seeing that it's sister unit was the Heavy arms type gouf my guess is that if zeonic asked this was aimed as another improved support model gouf only to branch out to being an whole new ms. The YMS-09 seems to have possibility taked some insperation from the H-type flight test type goufs for it's final leg design basically dropping having an ms do unassisted Terran flight for less stressful hovercraft style flight the EFF seems to have take notice and the captured Gouf H-types are fitted to work like Doms Ironically the Rick dom seems to have taken some insperation from the R-type zaku II witch used zimmad rockets and swapped out the Dom hover feet for rocket feet also saving zeon cash as the remaining space based Dom production lines could be recycled only needing to alter the thruster assenbely stage to space use rockets replacing the hover jet install especially as zeon was still selecting an new General purpose MS leading up to the MS-14 and zeon eventuallhy wanting an new universal unit

toysdream
Posts: 3250
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: The Dawning of Dom

Post by toysdream » Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:08 am

Jeff: A lot of this old information simply isn't compatible with the MSD development history. It remains to be seen how much of this new material is going to stick, but simply repeating the "old" version doesn't help us understand the "new" one.


Jager: I guess the C-5 does have slightly larger feet than other Gouf variants. It's also interesting to compare the leg thrusters - I'm hesitant to call them all "jets" because that invites confusion with the Dom's nuclear thermal jet engines, which should be a different kind of system from everything up until the C-5 (at least).

As for the YMS-08A, I'm really at a loss. It was originally described (in one of the old TV story books, where it first appeared alongside the C-5 and the Prototype Gouf and Dom) as a prototype leading to the Gouf; this would explain things like the shield, which is halfway between a Zaku shoulder shield and the Gouf's carried shield, but there are a lot of other YMS-08A features that don't logically lead to the Gouf. Now, according to MSD, it's in between the C-5 and the YMS-08B, which makes no sense at all, and what's more it somehow evolves into the Efreet. That makes literally no sense whatsoever.

At the moment, my impulse regarding the YMS-08A is actually to say it's a Dougram reject that doesn't belong in the Gundam universe at all. ;-)

As for the MS-06K, my crackpot pet theory is actually that it's the ground version of the MS-06R-3, which is used to gather test data for the Gelgoog's ground operation. But that's a whole other long, complicated theory I'll have to explain some other time!

-- Mark

User avatar
Gelgoog Jager
Posts: 1687
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:09 pm

Re: The Dawning of Dom

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:25 am

I called them jets because IIRC the Gouf's leg thrusters were said to allow it to perform jet assisted jumps. On the other hand, the Dom's mechanism is supposed to be a hoverjet. Perhaps the reason the C-5 distributes 4 smaller jet thrusters instead of using larger ones like those of the MS-07C-3 and YMS-08A

Personally I see the MS-06G as a mass production version of the YMS-08A, since it is essentially a Zaku that inherited it's most unique traits, the sloped shield and jet thrusters, but not the Gouf's fixed weapons, and most importantly, whose production was cancelled in favor of the MS-07B.

I'm thinking that its odd legs could simply be the result of designing them from scratch, unlike the Gouf which was still heavily based on the Zaku. As for their resemblance to MSM legs, perhaps the simplest explanation is that they wanted it to be able to move even in swamps and rivers, so they put waterpoof seals on its legs.

I completely agree on the Efreet not possibly being related to neither the YMS-08A nor the YMS-08B.

And I want to mention that nowdays I have serious doubts about where to fit the MS-06R-3 (either as MS-06R-2P or MS-06R-3S). From what we know today, any early attempt from Zeon to produce beam weapons for their MS involved beam weapons powered directly by a generator, the same approach taken with their MSM and MA units. It's not until the appearance of the Gundam that Zeon realizes that there is an alternative to that route, but it takes them way too long to achieve results in that direction, with the earliest Gelgoog beam weapons available being none other than the MS-14C's beam cannon, another weapon powered by a generator of its own.

Besides, the background info from Uma Lightining's MS-14 would seem to indicate that the original MS-11 was being developed by sections, from which only the head and feet were completed before the project was reclassified as MS-14.

As for the beam rifle itself, today we have the prototype beam rifle from Gato's MS-14A and the Ken's MS-14G, which suggests that Zeons earliest attempts were much larger than the final product.

Given those circumstances, I imagine the only alternative for the MS-06R-3 to mantain its role would be discarding the idea of its prototype beam rifle in exchange of the the Rick Dom's beam bazooka, which essentially was Zeon's one succesful attempt at producing a handheld beam weapon without e-cap technology, with the Skiure probably being the next closest competitor.

Even if we leave beam weapons aisde, from a design point of view the head of Uma's unit doesn't resemble that of the MS-06R-3, and the MS-14BR pretty much confirms that the thruster arrangement of the MS-09 and MS-14 series is not an adaptation of the MS-06R's thrusters, but rather the result of the UMP plan seeking to standarize the thruster arrangement of their mainstay units. And considering how early the Chimera Corps began training with their YMS-14, it seems safe to assume that Zeon didn't wait for the MS-06R-3 (nor its beam rifle) to be completed before starting production of the YMS-14. The background of the MS-11, which claims that the MS itself was completed before its beam weapons does seem to indicate a similar scenario.

Anyway, back to topic, I noticed something interesting in Gundam Battle Operation (PS3): the MS-14D does acually have 3 calf thrusters below it's rear leg armor, besides he 3 external thrusters around each leg. This makes me think that the calf thrusters of the Gelgoog and Dom may not quite replace the jet thrusters of a Gouf for perfoming jet powered jumps, and at least in the case of the MS-14D someone thought it would be useful having both systems on its legs. And just for the record, GBO uses the same designs that Gundam Side Stories uses, the later which is a game that has been pushed as hard as possible to fit in the canon thanks to details such as the MS-08TX/S.

toysdream
Posts: 3250
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: The Dawning of Dom

Post by toysdream » Fri Jan 08, 2016 4:09 am

I'd be careful about that "jet" term - I think that may be a fannish elaboration, rather than a verbatim quote from the Japanese. In the original MSV text, we're told that the MS-07H has "nuclear thermal engines" in its legs and that the Dom uses a combination of rocket engines and nuclear thermal jet engines, but everything else is just described and labeled as a "thruster" or "vernier" or "propulsion engine".

This also applies to the MS-06K, incidentally. The openings on the sides and back of its legs are just described as "supplemental propulsion systems".


As for the MS-06R-3, I feel like the design from the M-MSV series doesn't match the previous claims about the R-3. The R-3 is supposed to be an evolution of the R-2 type used for gathering Gelgoog test data, so it should be a reasonable functional equivalent to the Gelgoog. The M-MSV design resembles the Gelgoog cosmetically but not functionally; to me, it actually seems like a better visualization of the MS-11. It doesn't have a swappable backpack, or the flared skirt and leg armor inherited from the Dom and R-2 type; it appears to be exclusively for space use; and it's designed to carry a crude heat saber rather than a beam weapon. If you took that design and incorporated feedback from the Dom and R-2, though, you'd more or less end up with the final Gelgoog design.

Back in the MSV books, it was mentioned that the basic design of the Gelgoog was completed three months before the rollout of its beam weapons (that means August of U.C. 0079, before the debut of the Gundam). I think Okawara's so-called "MS-06R-3S", or "Pre-Prototype Gelgoog", would fit very nicely in that timeframe. Of course, all bets are off now that the MSD series is running around kicking over all the applecarts. :-)

Another possibility: If the initial development of the MS-11 was roughly simultaneous with that of the Dom, it's possible that the developers might have just taken a random Zaku and remodeled it into a data-gathering mockup of their intended MS-11 design, just like the MS-06RD-4.


Finally, on the MS-14D: Its legs strongly resemble those of the MS-14GD from the MSV-R series, which doesn't have leg thrusters according to its profile. It seems logical to me that the Desert Gelgoog just stuck the thrusters back on the outside of the leg, but I guess the game modelers disagree...

-- Mark

User avatar
Gelgoog Jager
Posts: 1687
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:09 pm

Re: The Dawning of Dom

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:01 am

The idea of MS-14GD units being upgraded into MS-14D has never convinced me. For one, while if we were to exclude their heads and legs, the rest of their main bodies do seem look similar (essentially a standard Gelgoog body), it's the legs that look the most different. Just for starters, the MS-14D has feet that don't look like those of other Gelgoogs, and if we observe closely, there are many differences between the leg armor of the MS-14GD and the MS-14D. I think that if they were meant to be related, their legs should have been the most similar part in order to depict that the MS-14D simply completed what was left incomplete with the MS-14GD.

Another concern I have is regarding the idea of the MS-14GD being converted from a MS-14G, since that would imply that they would at least have the leg thrusters the any of the 2 versions of the MS-14G units we know.

So how about this instead: rather than the MS-14GD being upgraded into MS-14D, what if the MS-14GD is based on the MS-14D. In other words, what if the MS-14D appeared before the MS-14GD? The MS-14D looks more similar to space models such as the MS-14C. It's leg thrusters could simply be based on those the Gouf and other ground units use for jumping.

But what about the MS-14GD? Well, since the YMS-09D, MS-09K-1, MS-09K-2, MS-06K and even the MS-07G-1 seem to have a propulsion system like the one of the YMS-09/MS-09A, what if their version of the Desert Gelgoog intended to replace the thruster system of the MS-14D with one similar to the other units produced at California Base. Perhaps we could even rationalize the missing calf thrusters to the MS-14GD being based on a MS-14G model different from those we know, which replaced the standard Gelgoog calf thrusters with a propulsion system based on the MS-09A's.

toysdream
Posts: 3250
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: The Dawning of Dom

Post by toysdream » Fri Jan 08, 2016 4:54 pm

The MS-14GD profile text from the MSV-R series says that it was produced at the California Base using parts shipped from Granada, and since supplies were so unreliable at that point in the war, the design was simplified to remove the leg thruster units and omit the hover functions. That's one of its main distinguishing characteristics. It didn't really do much good, though, since only 8 units were even completed.

(Incidentally, this phrasing suggests a distinction between "leg thruster units" and "hover functions". We know from ZZ that Gelgoogs can hover just like Doms; presumably, in both cases, it's the thrusters in the soles of the feet that provide this function.)

But I think you may be on to something with the idea that the MS-14D Desert Gelgoog precedes the MS-14GD. The MSV-R profile says that Zeon began testing the Gelgoog's effectiveness on the ground in October, U.C. 0079, when production began; development continued at the California Base for about a month, followed by the short-lived production of the MS-14GD. Since even the simplified GD type barely yielded any units due to the California Base's deteriorating production capability, the deluxe MS-14D makes more sense as a prototype produced back in the Good Old Days.

Incidentally, the Desert Gelgoog has a lot of weird body details that differ from the standard version. Aside from the square feet, there's the torso structure and waist cables, the shoulder detailing, and its unusual arms with wrist "cuffs" and no forearm equipment mount. These could just be gratuitous customizations, but if the California Base was playing around with prototype Gelgoog parts back in October - before the Chimaira Corps was formed - these could also be leftovers from an earlier version of the design, like the head of Uma Lightning's Gelgoog.

I guess what I'm suggesting here is the same thing that happened with the Dom Tropical Test Type; once the prototype is completed in space, it's shipped to the California Base and converted into a desert test type. Even the Gouf Flight Test Type had a similar origin story.

-- Mark

User avatar
Gelgoog Jager
Posts: 1687
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:09 pm

Re: The Dawning of Dom

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Sat Jan 09, 2016 3:50 pm

By the way, isn't it odd that the MS-14GD lacks leg thrutsers, hover systems and even a backpack with thrusters, yet it retains the arm-mounted jet engines which supposedly are meant to assist the Gelgoog during atmospheric flight. Personally, I imagine that a flight capable Gelgoog would probably have its arm jet engines, a backpack like the one on Ken Bederstadt's MS-14G, with smaller shield (for better aerodynamics) like the one such unit has or the even smaller buckler shield sometimes seen on some MS-14C units and probably one of the more compact beam rifles of the Gelgoog series, such as the standard Gelgoog beam rifle, the one from the MS-14GD or even the one from the MS-14BR.

Which leads me to another weird aspect of the MS-14 series: the ground use MS-14G lack these jet engines, while even space use variants such as the MS-14B supposedly retain them. Considering that even the late MS-17A has them, I'm thinking that despite their testing in space, the YMS-14/MS-14S and close derivatives (such as the MS-14A, MS-14B and MS-14C) are probably primarily meant to be used on Earth, while the MS-14F, MS-14FS and MS-14JG were probably desgined to be primarily used in space. By extension the MS-14J which replaces the arm jet engines with weapons and adds external propellant tanks would certainly seems like a ground unit upgraded for space combat.

Also, unlike the other weapons systems that replace the arm jet engines, the weapons of the MS-14G series clearly seem to have been built to externally resemble the jet engines, or rather bult to fit inside the same space, which suggests that they could have been developed at the same time as interchangeable components.

Going back to the MS-14D, I think it's interesting noting that it's head includes an additional sensor/camera on top of the mono-eye, a trait also seen on Uma Lightning's MS-14 (which has an early production head) and on the MS-14C. The later has been depicted without jet engines and replacing those parts altogether with the less common 3-tube missile launcher and buckler shield.

Another interesting point is that the MS-14BR, which removes its calf thrusters in favor of ones similar to the space only MS-06R series. The implication could be that the calf thrusters are indeed meant primarily for hovering on the ground or performing jumps, while the configuration of the MS-14BR is primarily meant for space combat.

Then there's the "-1A" option seen on the MS-14C-1A and Uma Lightning MS-14, which seems closer to the MS-09G's leg propellant tanks rather than the torso mounted external propellant tanks of the space bound MS-14 units mentioned earlier, and which we could potentially assume are meant to mainly to extend the operation of the units using themon the ground, where the calf thrusters could be assumed to be used the most (even if the animation doesn't quite depict them that way).

And going back to the MS-17A, Mark's site indicates that it retains the arm jet engines, while the MS-17B (RMS-117) was built exclusively for space:

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/arch ... pedia.html

This do meshes well with the idea that the unlike other MS-14 units, MS-14JG is primarily a space unit. I mention this since we have commented that the similar color scheme of the MS-14JG and the MS-17B may be meant to imply a direct relationship between these two units.

toysdream
Posts: 3250
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: The Dawning of Dom

Post by toysdream » Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:40 pm

Honestly, given the haphazard way in which they're retained or replaced, and the fact that they've never ever been depicted as providing thrust (in the animation or anywhere else), I think Occam's Razor would suggest that those devices on the Gelgoog's forearms aren't really jet engines. There's certainly no other instance of a mobile suit using forearm engines for thrust.

Any other theories? Well, there's always something something cooling system. It would be funny if they were for beam saber storage, though. :-)

Incidentally, while I was pondering the existence (or not) of jet engines in various Zeon mobile suits, I remembered the MS-07H series. Although we know for certain that the H-8 type has nuclear thermal jet engines in its legs, when it comes to original MS-07H, the MSV series only says that it has "nuclear thermal engines". Gundam Officials actually claims that the original MS-07H had nuclear thermal rocket engines in its legs, accounting for its shorter flight duration, and that the adoption of jet engines - presumably using Dom technology - was the key breakthrough in the MS-07H-8.

Still not sure how I feel about that idea, but I guess it would help explain which the Gouf Flight Test Type isn't normally credited as an ancestor of the Dom...

-- Mark

User avatar
Gelgoog Jager
Posts: 1687
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:09 pm

Re: The Dawning of Dom

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:14 pm

Regarding the Gelgoog's forearm jet engines, I think that perhaps they could have been assumed to work somewhat like the Gaplant's binders (certainly lacking the flexibility and maneuverability of the later) or the Byarlant's shoulder thrusters.

As for why they would need them, I think that the Gundam's performance on Earth, namely during its first battles against Garma's forces, could have had some influence on that, since Gatma himself was so impressed that the Gundam's mobility on the air upon jumping made it seemed like it was almost flying, at least according to Garma. I think it wouldn't be surprising for the machine that is supposed to match/outperform the Gundam to have been designed to have similar or better aerial mobility.

By the way, I want to make a small correction: above I said that a flight capable Gelgoog would probably use either the shield of the G-type or of the C-type, but the later requires to remove the forearm jet engine, therefore it wouldn't be compatible with a configuration focused on aerial mobility.

That being said, it's interesting pointing out that these jet engines are namely mentioned in the cases of the MS-14A and MS-14S, which also happen to lack a backpack (or back thrusters like those on the MS-09B/MS-09R). Perhaps however designed the Gelgoog actually simply moved the back/backpack thrusters to the forearms?

Also, we know all YMS-14 units were eventually upgraded into MS-14B or MS-14C (even Char's unit is supposedly given a B-type backpack), and in MS Igloo the MS-14A units seem to have been given a simplified B-type backpack (most likely due to the fact that many of them were being assigned to rookies who wouldn't be able to make proper use of the standard B-type backpack).

Perhaps much like the 122 sets of MS-14C components that were being produced by the end of the war for upgrading A-types, these backpacks were also produced for improving the A-types. Perhaps the plan all along was to upgrade all A-types into either the B-type or C-type configuration, but in the end only some of these downgraded B-type backpacks were ready in time for the final battle.

Anyway, I certainly think that many Gelgoogs could benefit from having both a backpack and additional weapons in their forearm.

Back to the MS-07H, considering that we know that the accident with the MS-07H-4 led to the cancellation of the project, it does sound reasonable that if a new and proved technology like the Dom's became available, it could have reactivated the project.

Finally, I've been meaning to ask, where does the MSM-10 fits in the picture? As I understand it has the hovering system of a Dom, but seems to lack any thruster to move around. I'm assuming the sole thrusters are hydrojets it uses to move underwater. Does it actually have Dom like mobility even if it does not have any visible thrusters to provide direction to its hovering?

toysdream
Posts: 3250
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: The Dawning of Dom

Post by toysdream » Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:26 pm

I'm still inclined to be skeptical of the "forearm jet engine" line - it's been repeated in the Japanese publications for decades, but it has no support in the animation whatsoever. It's not like we ever see a Gelgoog, or any other mobile suit, flying around in an awkward "Superman" pose with outstretched arms. And at Texas Colony, Char's Gelgoog performs mid-air maneuvers just like Gundam without using the arm engines. (After all, he's using his arms for combat.)

As for the Zock, the MSV books and the HG-UC kit manual say it has both hover units in its legs, and rocket engines that enable it to jump even better than a Zaku. I note that, since it has no leg joints, the Zock can't use its leg movements to jump like an ordinary mobile suit; if it's going to leave the ground, it would need to produce more than 1G of pure upward thrust.

And indeed, like the Guntank (which can rocket up to return to the White Base), the Zock's current specs give it exactly 1.1G of thrust. This appears to be the minimum required to launch upward using thrusters alone, and as such, it's probably a valid point of reference for the MS-07H as well.

-- Mark

User avatar
Gelgoog Jager
Posts: 1687
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:09 pm

Re: The Dawning of Dom

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:51 pm

Well, if both G-types, which are the ones meant to operate within Earth's atmosphere, have weapon instead of jet engines, I suppose it's fair enough that the other Gelgoog's don't need them either, though I'd really like some explicit mention of an A-type and/or S-type using forearms weapons.

I mentioned the Zock since if you think about it, a hovering amphibious MS would be a direct predecessor to the Shamblo (though in the animation it's not depicted to be as fast as its background suggests it is). Of course there's also the four-legged version of the Zock that first appeared in Journey to Jaburo which does have 6 thrusters, one on each leg and one on each side skirt armor.

toysdream
Posts: 3250
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: The Dawning of Dom

Post by toysdream » Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:00 pm

It sounds like the Zock mainly travels with its hover units (which seem pretty modest compared to those of the Xamel, for example) and those powerful rockets are used only as emergency boosters for jumping. So even though its thrust specs are very high, it seldom uses all that power.

-- Mark

User avatar
Gelgoog Jager
Posts: 1687
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:09 pm

Re: The Dawning of Dom

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:54 am

Back to the original topic, I think I just found something interesting:

http://gundam-goods.info/m_collection/g ... yms09r.htm

These are pictures of the MSIA figures of the Dom and Rick Dom. There are no big surprises with the Rick Dom, but the Dom not only has slightly different back thrusters (not an uncommon trait) and a shorter skirt, but lacks calf thrusters. These are instead replaced by something that could resemble the thrusters built around the legs of the YMS-09 or MS-06K, but built inside the leg armor rather than outside it.

However, as I pointed out a moment ago, this Dom do has skirt thrusters, however compared to the Rick Dom's, it has 3 small thrusters while the Rick Dom has two small ones and a central large one.

It would be interesting finding out where does the inspiration for such unique details came from.

User avatar
Evex
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:33 am

Re: The Dawning of Dom

Post by Evex » Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:04 am

It might help to look at this in a different view point.

Looking through the MAHQ profiles of the mentioned suits I think I pieced together something that makes a bit of sense of how the MS-08B fits into the development history.

I believe Zimmad started testing of the dom series using the MS-07C-5 Gouf Test type. This eventually was developed into the two YMS-08B demonstration units. In order to demonstrate the suit capabilities they converted a standard configuration by modifying a MS-06F Zaku II, along with an improved version using the body from the MS-07C-5 Gouf Test type.

In the end the alternate version body type was selected going on forward, and this was further developed into the YMS-09 Dom prototype, which eventually became the MS-09 Dom. The spare demonstration YMS-08B was then given the head and shoulder armor of a regular Zaku II and then re-designated the MS-06RD-4 Zaku II RD 4 Type (prototype High mobility Zaku) to test out the leg thrusters for the rick dom. The reason the demonstration type is most likely refereed to as the YMS-08B is due to the fact the alternate configuration uses the same body type as Zimmads YMS-08A high mobility prototype, which was rolled into the YMS-07A Prototype Gouf project earlier.

Edit: thinking about things I just realized something. In animation we see the MS-06RD-4 Zaku II RD 4 Type (prototype High mobility Zaku) around the time of Garma Zabi's funeral. The MS-09 Dom isn't seen until operation odessa in animation. If I remember my dates right Garma's funeral was october 6 0079 and the battle of odessa began november 7 0079. I think I know what might be going on, or I have a theory.

We assume the MS-09 dom and ms-09R rick dom were developed separately of each other, but what if the two mobile suits were being developed at the same time. Zimmad in order to test things develop two prototypes these being the MS-06RD-4 Zaku II RD 4 Type (prototype High mobility Zaku) and the MS-07C-5 Gouf Test type. The Zaku II RD 4 is designed to test out the configuration of thrusters meant to be used on the MS-09R Rick Dom, while the Gouf Test Type tests the configuration of thrusters meant for the MS-09 Dom. Eventually both units are re-designated as YMS-08B Demonstration types, with the standard version receiving parts from the proto type gouf, being used to demonstrate the rick dom, while the alternate version, receiving parts from the RD 4 Zaku II, is used to demonstrate the dom capabilities.

Once Zeon approves of the design the project is reclassified under the YMS-09 model number and Zimmad develops the prototype dom. The initial role out of the MS-09 Dom begins around the time ramba ral's gouf has been destroyed, and at the same time the MS-09R Rick dom is rolled out in space.
Last edited by Evex on Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

False Prophet
Posts: 741
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:40 am

Re: The Dawning of Dom

Post by False Prophet » Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:05 am

I'm really at a lost here.

But hey, doesn't the Dreissen have no inner-skirt thruster like the Rick Dom II? It only has nozzles behind the skirt like the Rick Dom.

I'm not really sure what to make of this (maybe the reason is simply because ZZ came before War in the Pocket), but if we consider the Space-only use role of the Dreissen and the Rick Dom, does skirt thruster worth that much?

User avatar
domtropen
Posts: 488
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:07 am

Re: The Dawning of Dom

Post by domtropen » Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:38 am

Dreissen works very well on Earth in ZZ.

The MSIA version of Dom has its foot equipped with some kind of square vents surrounding the foot thruster instead of small thrusters on MSIA Rickdom. I think the vent-like stuffs in the leg is probably meant to be some kind of hover units in combination with those vents at the foot. Dunno if it is jet engine or duct for fan units though. Also the nozzles of its back and skirt engines look sorta like jet nozzles rather than regular rocket version on MSIA Rickdom. Maybe the MSIA Dom try to show that this version of Dom has thermonuclear jet engines and/or hovercraft system, linking it to Dom tropen?

Post Reply