AEUG Early MS?

[TDR-10M Thunderbolt]

With the inclusion of the GM Cannon II and GM Custom in the AEUG's forces as of the Zeta movies, I've become curious about the AEUG's MS roster, what sort of options they had and how good they were. Would people more familiar with the underlying details be able to offer thoughts on the topic, bearing in mind these criteria?

Sources of Interest: Anything official (Zeta TV, 0083), anything animated (Zeta Movies), anything that isn't technically official but reasonably plays nice with official sources without introducing problems (some manga, some video games, use good judgement here).

Units to Ignore: Rick Dias, Nemo, Gundam Mk. II, anything Unique (Super Gundam, Dijeh, etc). These either aren't mass produced, or come too late to be of interest (the Nemo clearly supercedes all other units I'm inquiring about, and the Rick Dias partially does so too in performance if not production numbers)

With those laid out, what MS did the AEUG have from the span of 0085 to 0087-ish, and how effective were they? I can think of at least three:

GM II
GM Custom
GM Cannon II

How did those three compare to one another? The often-error-laden Gundam Wikia claims the GM Cannon II was effectively hopeless in 'dogfighting', but the only times we even see them try are mostly when Chuck Keith does ill-advised things in 0083 and... well, Keith is a bad pilot whose major redeeming virtues are being decently accurate and having a good 'team player' attitude; I wouldn't use him to benchmark an MS' ability to engage other MS head on.

For that matter, how does the GM Custom compare with the GM II?

Finally... Any other notable mass production units they would have fielded, and how good were they?

If I had to speculate, the AEUG seemed rather handicapped in this regard early on... they must have been, if the Rick Dias was too expensive for widespread production (mass produced, yes, but apparently too expensive for every single MS in the AEUG's arsenal) and the Nemo had to be commissioned as their designated 'GM II killer'/general MS superiority unit.

Any thoughts you can offer would be greatly appreciated!

[MythSearcher]

With the inclusion of the GM Cannon II and GM Custom in the AEUG's forces as of the Zeta movies, I've become curious about the AEUG's MS roster, what sort of options they had and how good they were. Would people more familiar with the underlying details be able to offer thoughts on the topic, bearing in mind these criteria?

Sources of Interest: Anything official (Zeta TV, 0083), anything animated (Zeta Movies), anything that isn't technically official but reasonably plays nice with official sources without introducing problems (some manga, some video games, use good judgement here).

Units to Ignore: Rick Dias, Nemo, Gundam Mk. II, anything Unique (Super Gundam, Dijeh, etc). These either aren't mass produced, or come too late to be of interest (the Nemo clearly supercedes all other units I'm inquiring about, and the Rick Dias partially does so too in performance if not production numbers)

With those laid out, what MS did the AEUG have from the span of 0085 to 0087-ish, and how effective were they? I can think of at least three:

GM II
GM Custom
GM Cannon II

How did those three compare to one another? The often-error-laden Gundam Wikia claims the GM Cannon II was effectively hopeless in 'dogfighting', but the only times we even see them try are mostly when Chuck Keith does ill-advised things in 0083 and... well, Keith is a bad pilot whose major redeeming virtues are being decently accurate and having a good 'team player' attitude; I wouldn't use him to benchmark an MS' ability to engage other MS head on.

For that matter, how does the GM Custom compare with the GM II?

Finally... Any other notable mass production units they would have fielded, and how good were they?

If I had to speculate, the AEUG seemed rather handicapped in this regard early on... they must have been, if the Rick Dias was too expensive for widespread production (mass produced, yes, but apparently too expensive for every single MS in the AEUG's arsenal) and the Nemo had to be commissioned as their designated 'GM II killer'/general MS superiority unit.

Any thoughts you can offer would be greatly appreciated!

Firstly, the AEUG acquired most of their MS by Blakes writing-off EFF's relatively older equipment. How he exactly pulled it off is not really important here so I will skip that. But essentially you can assume that almost anything the EFSF has that can fight in space and is relatively common and does not belong to Titans before 0085 can appear in AEUG's arsenal. Its mostly GM II since it's EFF's main mass-production unit, but anything goes.(Yes, I had the Indiana Jones - Temple of Doom tune stuck in my head) Since they accepted Zeon remnants as well, they might have some Zeon units as well.(Sponsored by AE, finding parts for Zeon units will not be as hard as you might think) Other than those, they mainly use AE sponsored ships and MSs to maintain their forces.(AE was pretty generous when it comes to ships, look at those Argama and Irish class ships, wonder if EFSF bought them afterwards)

GM Cannon II was basically the same project by Auguster with GM Custom, they shared quite a lot of parts, and both took some concepts and technology from NT-1. It is a bit more lucky since it was used more extensively for both factions(AEUG and Titans), the EFF presumably kept using it as a support unit until 0120 G-Cannon.(That might have to be adjusted since the Unicorn OVA seemed to retconned the Guncannon Detector in as a EFF unit after the Gryps Conflict and thus EFF had a newer support unit in between) It does consider for close combat and had a beam sabre installed on its forearm, but I would depend on that since its heavy armour without additional thrusters to compensate for the mass.

For the GM II vs GM Custom part, the development history is basically like this:
RGM-79 GM -> 79C GM Kai/GM C -> 79N GM Custom(also with 79SC and 79G concept and mainly technology from NT-1) -> 79Q GM Quel -> TR-1 -> Gundam Mk-II
RGM-79 GM -> 79C GM Kai/GM C -> 79CR GM Kai High Mobility Type -> 79R GM II
(Both are obvious retcon after AOZ, main ref here are: MG Manual, Gundam Encyclopaedia Ver. 1.5)
The 79N was a high-end product which was not suited for mass-production, even the 79Q had to simplify it a bit(and reduced performance by a little), while the 79R was just an overall upgrade of all existing standard GMs(presumably mostly 79C) with RGM-179 newly produced.
79R had a slightly higher generator output, but the 79N has more powerful thrust and thrust to weight ratio. The 79R also has a longer sensing range and lighter empty weight.

Lastly, yes, the AEUG was in a pretty tight spot there, they are using basically drop outs(both man power and units) against the elite Titans. They had power in numbers though. That's why Titans opted for the control of EFF regular troops so they can cover the number part.

[TDR-10M Thunderbolt]

Thanks MythSearcher, that's a pretty good response.

As far as the GM II/GM Custom info goes... I get that, but the GM II does have a beam rifle and presumably a few years tech advantage on the GM Custom. Is that enough to put them on equal footing, or is it fair to infer that the GM Custom's purpose as a limited-production unit for veterans/aces gives it the edge still?

EDIT: Upon looking more closely at a photo of the AEUG-use GM Custom... apparently it uses the same beam rifle the GM II and Nemo do in that era. Well, guess that eliminates that advantage.

[MythSearcher]

Thanks MythSearcher, that's a pretty good response.

As far as the GM II/GM Custom info goes... I get that, but the GM II does have a beam rifle and presumably a few years tech advantage on the GM Custom. Is that enough to put them on equal footing, or is it fair to infer that the GM Custom's purpose as a limited-production unit for veterans/aces gives it the edge still?

EDIT: Upon looking more closely at a photo of the AEUG-use GM Custom... apparently it uses the same beam rifle the GM II and Nemo do in that era. Well, guess that eliminates that advantage.

I'd say the GM Custom is likely to be a bit better in terms of dogfight, but if you let me choose the beam sniper rifle 79SP and 79SR uses, I'd be more inclined in using the longer sensor ranged GM II. Otherwise, the 79N seemed to be a more suitable unit for combat with its higher thrust to mass ratio.
I'd say both are comparable in spec, 79N likely have less propellant and thus a shorter operational time, but better spec. Likely also more complicated and harder to maintain and fix, so resupply may take longer.
Fun thing is, 79CR and 79SR seemed to be both doing much better in thrust than 79N and 79R.

[TDR-10M Thunderbolt]

That sounds about right. It's amazing to see how convoluted their MS roster gets, only to be simplified later on by focusing primarily on the Nemo and Rick Dias.

Anyway, thank you again for the insights. It sounds like I caught most of the usual suspects, with the nod that they probably have one-offs of a lot of random things lying around somewhere, as you mentioned with various Zeon stuff.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

Since they accepted Zeon remnants as well, they might have some Zeon units as well.

Other than Char, have we actually seen any former Zeon personnel in the AEUG? (Apolly and Roberto are ex-Zeon tagging along with Char according to Char's Deleted Affair, I believe, but I've never really bought that from within the show itself. Certainly Apolly seems as surprised as anyone when Minerva is trotted out as the Glorious Leader of Zeon, to say nothing of the revelation that "Quattro" is actually Char.) The vast majority of AEUG members are defectors from the EFF. Other than the handful of teenagers they pick up, I can't think of any exceptions to that rule besides Char -- and even then, IIRC Quattro's fictional background had him as a former EFF pilot.

(AE was pretty generous when it comes to ships, look at those Argama and Irish class ships, wonder if EFSF bought them afterwards)

I don't believe that any of them survived the war. The AEUG fleet is basically completely destroyed during the final battle in Zeta, save for the Argama -- and the Argama was given to Karaba on Earth during ZZ and, as far as I'm aware, never heard from again. The Nahel Argama survives and becomes part of the Londo Bell fleet, as seen in Unicorn.

[JEFFPIATT]

I don't believe that any of them survived the war. The AEUG fleet is basically completely destroyed during the final battle in Zeta, save for the Argama -- and the Argama was given to Karaba on Earth during ZZ and, as far as I'm aware, never heard from again. The Nahel Argama survives and becomes part of the Londo Bell fleet, as seen in Unicorn.

unicorn showed that the Irish class did make it to the EFSF fleet when the AEUG reintegrated. the AEUG ms fleet was mostly built up from the ms complements of defecting ships and what ever equiptment that they could steal from boneyards or bases. the main issue with the Rick Dias was the look of it's head having an zeon mono eye looking to zeonic damaging there PR. The Nemo project was to take the best engineering from the GM series and adding tech from the rick dias to make an better GM than the GM II.the other advantage being gaining compatabilty with existing GM hand arms witch the Dias did not seem to have.

[TDR-10M Thunderbolt]

Apolly and Roberto are indeed ex-Zeon. ...Or possibly ex-EFSF. They mention that they didn't bother with the instruction manuals for their mobile suits during the One Year War in Zeta episode 1 or 2 (Quattro even gets after them about it, telling Roberto that attitude will get him killed).

Several video games (obviously not 'official', per Mark's discussion on what is Gundam official material) play with the idea too, depicting them as pilots with experience in various Zaku and Dom types.

AEUG ex-Zeon members seem to primarily be the realm of speculation in the Gihren's series of video games, manga entries such as depicting Gabriel Zola as ex-Zeon, and so on. It seems reasonable they picked up a few here and there, but it also appears the majority of their forces were Federation, ex-civilian ('civilian until the Titans forced me to get involved'), etc.

Interesting in any case, to think their force was mostly GM IIs early on, with a handful of random Zeon toys picked up here and there supplemented by the somewhat superior GM Custom and GM Cannon II in small amounts.

[Gelgoog Jager]

The Nemo project was to take the best engineering from the GM series and adding tech from the rick dias to make an better GM than the GM II.the other advantage being gaining compatabilty with existing GM hand arms witch the Dias did not seem to have.

I don't think this is the case.

We have discussed this in the past, but the Nemo is basically the result of AEUG pilots disliking the zeonic appearance of the MSA-002 Marasai, itself basically a Hizack built by AE engineers using Zeon technology. The MSA-003 Nemo is essentially a Zeon MS with the exterior of a GM, which would be the opposite to a Hizack (an EF MS with the exterior of a Zaku).

In both cases, these MS are built with equipment compatibility in mind, namely the Marasai being able to use Hizack weapons and the Nemo being able to use GM II weapons. That being said, the Barzam which supposedly can use equipment from both the GM II and Hizack, so it might not be necessary to only pick one or the other.

[Zeonista]

The defectors who initially made up AEUG brought their own MS with them. In terms of general MS this would mean a lot of GM II types, since they were the standard EFSF MS at the time. A plethora of weapons and parts would keep the GM II MS front and center as well.

But at the same time AEUG and Kalaba members would want to get as many MS as possible, since pilot candidates would always outnumber machines, and the more MS in action the better. So there would be a general hunt for useful MS wherever they could be obtained. I would accept the proposition that GM-C, GM Snipers, GM Customs, and GM Cannons of any type would be considered useful and valuable acquisitions. Some field mods could have been done to bring sensors and comm gear up to date, and 90mm rifles could be swapped out for beam pistols and beam rifles.

I am skeptical about Zeon MS of any type being used by AEUG members at the beginning of Zeta Gundam. There was just enough of a difference between GM and Zaku based control systems to cause user problems (and therefore bias). The majority of AEUG's members with military experience were EFSF or EFSF trained, and they would have wanted MS of the same background for training and equipping volunteer pilots. Remnants allied with AEUG would have kept on using their own MS, maybe have taken captured Titans MS, or later on have accepted MS from AE.

[toysdream]

The one glaring omission in the AEUG ranks is the Hizack. This actually is the standard Federation machine by the time the Gryps Conflict begins, and yet the AEUG absolutely doesn't use it. Out of universe, this is presumably because it's a bad guy machine, but even in-universe it seems like it must be a political decision on the AEUG's part.

And if they don't use Hizacks, they probably wouldn't embrace other Zeon-ish designs either. Although in that case one wonder why they made the Rick Dias seem more Dom-ish than originally intended. Maybe this is Anaheim's taste; after all, they made the Marasai very Zeon-ish too.

-- Mark

[AmuroNT1]

Maybe my memory is failing me, but didn't Char protest the "Gamma Gundam"? If so that might be the reason it was renovated into the Rick Dias.

[JEFFPIATT]

actually the Gamma gundam name was AEUG's code name for the suit and they were surprised when the final suit came out so zeonic looking. the next two suits AE had designed as the AEUG's more modem suit to supplement the fleet of GM II units was between the NEMO and Marasai both upgraded versons of existing EFSF MS platforms AEUG more than likely chose the Nemo because it resembled the GM the more heroic looking ms from the oyo. The Bonus being that it had more compatibility with there existing GM series suits requirement and recycled some rick dias parts such as the beam sabers allowing it to be an cheaper unit for the cash strapped AEUG.

[AmuroNT1]

I know Char protested either the Rick Dias or the Hyaku-Shiki being designated a Gundam at first, but I assumed it was the Dias because the Shiki was changed for technical reasons (namely, they couldn't work out the Delta's transformation until they got their hands on the Movable Frame).

[toysdream]

Yeah, the back story on the Rick Dias (as per Tomino's Zeta Gundam novels) is that it was being developed as the "Gamma Gundam" but the AEUG changed the name at Char's request. In Tomino's novels, Char doesn't see the Rick Dias until after rollout, so for some reason Anaheim and/or the AEUG have given their "Gundam" a mono-eye head. Based on its "RMS-099" camouflage model number, Anaheim was trying to pass off the development of the Rick Dias as a Federation Forces project, so this raises the possibility that it ended up with a mono-eye because that seemed like something the Federation would do.

You know, if the AEUG had intended to rebrand the Rick Dias as a Gundam after rollout, one assumes they'd have a stockpile of matching heads ready to install. That would be tricky, though, given that the Dias's cockpit is in the head! Maybe there would be a whole package that replaced the head and front of chest with something more GP02A-styled.

-- Mark

[TDR-10M Thunderbolt]

Interesting thoughts. So their force composition went something like...

"GM II + GM Cannon II + GM Custom + whatever misc. junk lying around", then "plus add the Rick Dias", then "scale back Rick Dias production in favor of more Nemos", and that's their mass production unit roster from 0085 to 0087-ish?

This leaves me with two questions.

1: How effective would the GM Rifle (the bullet-firing thing, not the beam rifle) have even been by that point in the timeline?

2: Do we have any insights on the GM Cannon II's ability to fend for itself in 1 on 1 situations? Various recent video games (not official, I know, but it's the best info I could find offhand) suggest it can, it's at a meaningful disadvantage but isn't hopeless... someone getting lucky or being sufficiently skilled could still win dogfights in it against the likes of GM II, Hizack, Galbaldy, etc.?

[AmuroNT1]

Yeah, the back story on the Rick Dias (as per Tomino's Zeta Gundam novels) is that it was being developed as the "Gamma Gundam" but the AEUG changed the name at Char's request. In Tomino's novels, Char doesn't see the Rick Dias until after rollout, so for some reason Anaheim and/or the AEUG have given their "Gundam" a mono-eye head. Based on its "RMS-099" camouflage model number, Anaheim was trying to pass off the development of the Rick Dias as a Federation Forces project, so this raises the possibility that it ended up with a mono-eye because that seemed like something the Federation would do.

Perhaps the name "Gamma Gundam" was floating around during the development phase and that was when Char made his request? It'd make sense because it'd give Anaheim time to re-jigger the head (and torso if, as you suggested, they relocated the cockpit). But even with the semi-retcon that the Dias is descended from the Physalis, I have a hard time imagining the "Gamma Gundam" just being a Dias with a Gundam head on it due to the unusual body shape. Maybe they reworked the whole body to give it more of a Zeonic feel.

[toysdream]

The "Gamma Gundam" anecdote comes from Tomino's novels in which, as I mentioned, Char doesn't see the Rick Dias and propose renaming it until it's already been rolled out. Basically, Blex shows him a hangar full of (mono-eyed) mobile suits and tells Char that he wants to call it the "Gamma Gundam", and then Char comes back with his own suggestion instead.

Which means that the Rick Dias rolled out in its final form, mono-eye and all, while Blex was still calling it a Gundam. It's an interesting situation! But the retcon insertion of the Gundam GP02A does give us some idea what a heavyweight Gundam might actually look like.

-- Mark

[MythSearcher]

You know, if the AEUG had intended to rebrand the Rick Dias as a Gundam after rollout, one assumes they'd have a stockpile of matching heads ready to install. That would be tricky, though, given that the Dias's cockpit is in the head! Maybe there would be a whole package that replaced the head and front of chest with something more GP02A-styled.

Maybe they didn't get trapped by the looks of the Gundam and is liberal enough on their concept about it, so they didn't use the usual Gundam head.

Anyway, the cockpit is not really a big problem, you can still build a Gundam head around it.
It will become more like a neck cockpit though.

Perhaps the name "Gamma Gundam" was floating around during the development phase and that was when Char made his request? It'd make sense because it'd give Anaheim time to re-jigger the head (and torso if, as you suggested, they relocated the cockpit). But even with the semi-retcon that the Dias is descended from the Physalis, I have a hard time imagining the "Gamma Gundam" just being a Dias with a Gundam head on it due to the unusual body shape. Maybe they reworked the whole body to give it more of a Zeonic feel.

They do have the more Dom like Prototype.

[TDR-10M Thunderbolt]

So I'm going to answer my own question the GM Cannon II, as I found some useful material. Turns out GundamInfo's video on that MS shows footage of it, the GP-01, GM Custom, and the Gelgoog Marine (plus Commander).

The GM Cannon II, near the end of the video, is shown doing clearly competent maneuvering. I would never say it is as agile as the GM Custom, nevermind the GP-01, but it's demonstrably able to move around decently well.

I am going to guess whoever wrote the "GM Cannon II has been shown to be unable to fend for itself" remarks on Gundam Wikia was reading too much into the unit's capabilities based on Chuck Keith. Which is kind of silly, because 0083 makes clear Keith has really bad maneuvering skills and is merely on the acceptable side of accuracy; using him as a performance benchmark for any Mobile Suit strikes me as ludicrous; he's worse than some unnamed generic pilots in the show.

(He is, mind you, an awesome character from a narrative standpoint and fun to cheer for, but he is still a bad pilot)

This just leaves me curious how well the 90mm GM Rifle holds up in 0085-onward combat.

EDIT: Actually, I think I can answer that question too. "Apparently it holds up well enough for the AEUG's GM Cannon IIs to continue issuing the GM Rifle even though their GM Customs switch to the GM II's Beam Rifle. I would think they would switch over the GM Rifle if it wasn't working out for them by that point in time."