AEUG Early MS?

[JEFFPIATT]

well during the zeta era the hizack still used an mostly unchanged version of the zaku 120 MG the only real upgrade being an new scope camera. The RGM-79N would have been an big prize for the early AEUG to receive seeing that it was the base frame that both the RGC-83 GM cannon II and the GM Quel were derived from. The GM Cannon II was an major step up from the old RGC-80 having lighter beam cannons and gaining Chobham armor and for close combat an beam saber that the rgc-80 lacked. But having AE as an sponsor meant that any recovered scrapped units could be refit using GM II parts.

[TDR-10M Thunderbolt]

So... yeah. It looks like the early AEUG wasn't too bad off in terms of equipment quality. GM IIs are at least reasonably equal to the other common units of the 0085-0086 era, and the handful of GM Customs and GM Cannon IIs they got would have been able to hold their own in dogfights too.

This actually leads me to an odd question though, as to what, precisely, AEUG pilots fielded in 0088. It's clear the Rick Dias got reduced to very, very limited use by the time ZZ rolls around. The Nemo appears to be the obvious choice, but it's also clearly outgunned by the units the new Zeon faction was churning out by then.

Did the AEUG seriously just stick with the Nemo throughout? Well, that and the Nouvel GM III (did they use the regular GM III at all?), I guess. Not counting the various unique units like Methuss, Z, ZZ Gundam, etc; I'm asking about their main line units, the ones typical pilots would get during the ZZ era.

If so, this seems like a baffling decision.

[MythSearcher]

So... yeah. It looks like the early AEUG wasn't too bad off in terms of equipment quality. GM IIs are at least reasonably equal to the other common units of the 0085-0086 era, and the handful of GM Customs and GM Cannon IIs they got would have been able to hold their own in dogfights too.

This actually leads me to an odd question though, as to what, precisely, AEUG pilots fielded in 0088. It's clear the Rick Dias got reduced to very, very limited use by the time ZZ rolls around. The Nemo appears to be the obvious choice, but it's also clearly outgunned by the units the new Zeon faction was churning out by then.

Did the AEUG seriously just stick with the Nemo throughout? Well, that and the Nouvel GM III (did they use the regular GM III at all?), I guess. Not counting the various unique units like Methuss, Z, ZZ Gundam, etc; I'm asking about their main line units, the ones typical pilots would get during the ZZ era.

If so, this seems like a baffling decision.

You forgot about the Neros?

[toysdream]

Well, the Nero is only used by Taskforce Alpha in Gundam Sentinel - I don't think we have any confirmation it was used by the AEUG.

Honestly, aside from Karaba's GM IIIs, the main force of the AEUG is completely offscreen during ZZ and we have no clear idea of what mobile suits they might be using. Even side stories seldom offer any speculation. Could be anything.

As far as the ranking of the GM Custom and GM Cannon II versus other Gryps Conflict-era machines, I think it's worth noting that the GM Custom should be roughly comparable to the GM Quel, and the Titans phased out the latter machine completely in favor of the Hizack. So even with upgrades to bring them up to GM II specifications - i.e. a linear seat cockpit, maybe additional sensors and a generator upgrade - the GM Custom and GM Cannon II are probably at the bottom end of the performance scale.

-- Mark

[MythSearcher]

Well, the Nero is only used by Taskforce Alpha in Gundam Sentinel - I don't think we have any confirmation it was used by the AEUG.

Honestly, aside from Karaba's GM IIIs, the main force of the AEUG is completely offscreen during ZZ and we have no clear idea of what mobile suits they might be using. Even side stories seldom offer any speculation. Could be anything.

As far as the ranking of the GM Custom and GM Cannon II versus other Gryps Conflict-era machines, I think it's worth noting that the GM Custom should be roughly comparable to the GM Quel, and the Titans phased out the latter machine completely in favor of the Hizack. So even with upgrades to bring them up to GM II specifications - i.e. a linear seat cockpit, maybe additional sensors and a generator upgrade - the GM Custom and GM Cannon II are probably at the bottom end of the performance scale.

-- Mark

Ah, since Nero was developed by AE, I never suspected that they did find a way to slip into AEUG troops. I guess they might face a similar situation like Rick Dias and Gemeaux and was not widely used.

[Gelgoog Jager]

The one glaring omission in the AEUG ranks is the Hizack. This actually is the standard Federation machine by the time the Gryps Conflict begins, and yet the AEUG absolutely doesn't use it. Out of universe, this is presumably because it's a bad guy machine, but even in-universe it seems like it must be a political decision on the AEUG's part.

Actually, I don't think just any EF unit is given Hizacks, just consider which units use the Blue Hizacks:

-The forces on board none other than the Alexandria-class Hario.
-Buran Blutarch's forces. The important part here is that Ben Wooder, a Titan, is his aide.
-The forces on board the Dogosse Gier, which was being built at the Titans-controlled Gryps 2.

It seems that the EF forces which use Hizacks have strong links with the Titans, which might explain why the AEUG hasn't managed to get Hizacks. Considering Buran's odd case, perhaps the Asshiamr is another Titans exclusive unit. As a side note, the only two places where we see Zaku Cannons are inside the Hario and on the Titans controlled Kilimanjaro, so perhaps the Titans also have some control on the supply of those units.

Anyway, in the cases of the Hizack and Asshiamr we know that at least some units did end up captured: AEUG pilot Gabriel Zola gets ahold of an Asshimar, while the anti-Titans Keraunos squadron obtains some Hizacks.

Another point to consider is the Hizacks that Titans lend to the Republic of Zeon, as well as the question of what MS were being used by the EF forces that joined the Titans on the final part of Zeta Gundam. I don't remember exactly when we last see a blue Hizack (or a red GM II by the way), but after the EF forces are added to the Titans there's little need to differentiate between the two types.

I think the Titans had some tight control on the supply of several units (specially the Hizack), to the point that they could give some to the Republic of Zeon, while preventing that they were distributed to any EF forces not under their control. In such scenario, perhaps the Hizack was also banned from the Ef forces after the First Neo Zeon War, just like the Alexandria class. The same probably happened to the Marasai and Barzam, as well as the Zaku Mariner, the later which would justify the return to service of the older Aqua GMs.

And let's not forget that one of the notable changes the Byarlant Custom underwent was the replacment of its mono-eye sensor with a visor. I guess the EF really wanted to get rid of any Titan/Zeon reminder among their forces.

By the way, the only AEUG MS I remember seeing in ZZ was a lone GM II briefly seen at the moon. In ZZ frag I we also see some Nemos alongside the ZZ Gundam on snowy field on Earth, while the later is seen fighting some Galbaldy Beta units (I wonder if these might be standard MS-17B/AMX-117 units?).

Speaking of the Galbaldy Beta (RMS-117 in this case), it is the one unit that I do find strange that the AEUG didn't manage to get ahold of. Wasn't it even deployed before the GM II?

[Wingnut]

Speaking of the Galbaldy Beta (RMS-117 in this case), it is the one unit that I do find strange that the AEUG didn't manage to get ahold of. Wasn't it even deployed before the GM II?

None of the defecting units brought Betas with them I'd guess. Not surprising considering we only saw them on ships out of major garrisons like Luna 2.

[TDR-10M Thunderbolt]

As far as the ranking of the GM Custom and GM Cannon II versus other Gryps Conflict-era machines, I think it's worth noting that the GM Custom should be roughly comparable to the GM Quel, and the Titans phased out the latter machine completely in favor of the Hizack. So even with upgrades to bring them up to GM II specifications - i.e. a linear seat cockpit, maybe additional sensors and a generator upgrade - the GM Custom and GM Cannon II are probably at the bottom end of the performance scale.

-- Mark

Below even the GM II, you figure?

Mind, this may be an academic question. The production numbers on the GM Custom and GM Cannon II were low enough that the more highly produced GM II would be the 'main front line unit' by default regardless of whether the GM Custom was inferior to it or not. But it's one I'm always curious about; "If they could, would they have favored those units, hypothetically speaking"

[JEFFPIATT]

Speaking of the Galbaldy Beta (RMS-117 in this case), it is the one unit that I do find strange that the AEUG didn't manage to get ahold of. Wasn't it even deployed before the GM II?

None of the defecting units brought Betas with them I'd guess. Not surprising considering we only saw them on ships out of major garrisons like Luna 2.

the Beta was exclusively produced at Luna II and was generally assigned to ships operating out of that base unfortunately for the beta it had older titanium armor compared to the Compasite armor on the hi-zack and GM II. As for the Hi-zack the back story we get in AOZ mentions that it being adopted by the titans was more an case of logistics the Federation was adopting it as the new main line ms with the titans trialing it separately under some internal protest since it was an zaku clone. they end up using it due to the fact they needed more ms fast. The GM II was adopted in the sam e fashion with an trial unit being built on an GM C chassis for testing. for the most part the R type was aimed at back porting tech from the Hi-zack and GM Quel to the older model. I will note that the GM Custom, GM Cannon II and the Quell are all Mass produced versions of the Gundam NT-1. we can assume that off screen they had some from of refit but would still be handycapped by there age. But the AEUG was building there forces with what ever they could either steal or were already on the defecting EFSF ships before AE got any of there more modern unis built. my guess is that by the zz era they also switched to the GM III while they were slowly reintegrating with the EFSF.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

0083 makes clear Keith has really bad maneuvering skills and is merely on the acceptable side of accuracy; using him as a performance benchmark for any Mobile Suit strikes me as ludicrous; he's worse than some unnamed generic pilots in the show.

(He is, mind you, an awesome character from a narrative standpoint and fun to cheer for, but he is still a bad pilot)

I'm wondering where you got this impression. There's nothing in 0083 that I recall to suggest that Keith was a bad pilot. He may be less experienced than the 4th Team and less naturally talented than Kou, but he's generally portrayed as being quietly reliable -- not the type to lead the charge, but the sort of guy you'd want to have your back in a fight. Certainly he never does anything suicidally stupid, which is more than you can say for Kou.

Hell, IIRC he's one of only two or three pilots to keep his mecha intact throughout the series, even against enemies with better mecha (when he's stuck in a Zaku II aggressor unit early in the series) and years more experience.

[TDR-10M Thunderbolt]

Mostly things like him tripping into obstacles, losing his footing and getting 'call a tow crew' level stuck, panic-firing, and things like that.

Keith's redeeming qualities as a pilot are 'actually a team player' (in a genre where that's REALLY RARE, I note) and 'not shockingly stupid' because his sense of self-preservation works pretty well.

I say this as a fan of the character, mind you. Keith's pretty cool, and different from what you usually see in mecha shows. I like him!

[Zeonista]

The one glaring omission in the AEUG ranks is the Hizack. This actually is the standard Federation machine by the time the Gryps Conflict begins, and yet the AEUG absolutely doesn't use it. Out of universe, this is presumably because it's a bad guy machine, but even in-universe it seems like it must be a political decision on the AEUG's part.

And if they don't use Hizacks, they probably wouldn't embrace other Zeon-ish designs either. Although in that case one wonder why they made the Rick Dias seem more Dom-ish than originally intended. Maybe this is Anaheim's taste; after all, they made the Marasai very Zeon-ish too.

-- Mark

I would say that AEUG made a command decision to not use the Hizack to avoid battlefield confusion and political confusion as well. The battlefield ID issue was valid without need of explanation. AEUG members frequently said they did not identify with Titans or Zabi-loyal Zeonists, so the Hizack's Zaku-like profile would be unwanted. With the exception of the Rick Dias and Shzurm Dias, all the AEUG MS of 0085-88 had a distinct GM & Gundam profile that would be readily identifiable to an AEUG pilot, and guaranteed with a common paint job for the most part.

The Rick Dias ended up being odd MS out, and was accepted mainly because AEUG really needed MS and the Rick Dias was truthfully an excellent performer to issue to experienced pilots. The allegedly front-line Hizacks and GM IIs looked slow and clumsy next to a Rick Dias, and Franklin Vidan was impressed. And they weren't carbon-copy Doms in appearance so pilots could overlook it...or have it painted Nemo green if necessary.

The lack of Galbaldy Beta types in AEUG would reasonably entail the MS not being a common service type, and therefore less likely to be showing up in the hands of a defecting pilot. If a Beta pilot did defect and bring his ride with him, AEUG would still make use of it. But if the Beta took severe damage in combat it might be readily retired in favor of a Nemo.

I find it hard to believe that the GM Custom and GM Cannon II would be considered rear-duty MS at the beginning of 0087, in the same category of the modded OYW MS defending Jaburo. A cockpit overhaul for the linear seat and 360 visuals would bring them up to 0085 spec, since the MS were otherwise capable of using beam rifles and had the performance metrics deemed worthy of issuing to veteran "ace" units in 0083. The decision to replace the Quels and go exclusively to Hizacks seems more like a command decision for uniformity as opposed to judgement of the MS as an actual vehicle. The Customs had a proven battle record as fast and responsive machines, setting the trend for the 0085 era. The GM Cannon II types were tanks with heavy firepower, but they could keep up with regular Jims and Customs too. Eventually a lack of spares and battle damage would lead to them being replaced with AE MS, but they would hardly be the Brewster Buffaloes of Zeta Gundam.

[JEFFPIATT]

the GM Custom and GM Cannon II would have been both 5 years old by 0087 not that old and with the aeug still an good prize to score for use. the aeug did receve at least one beta. the RMS-117 Galbaldy β High Mobility Type was aquired during the events of AOZ along with one NRX-044 Asshimar. The Aeug was pretty much scavenging with an preference for RGM style suits.

[ChaoticSheep1]

the GM Custom and GM Cannon II would have been both 5 years old by 0087 not that old and with the aeug still an good prize to score for use. the aeug did receve at least one beta. the RMS-117 Galbaldy β High Mobility Type was aquired during the events of AOZ along with one NRX-044 Asshimar. The Aeug was pretty much scavenging with an preference for RGM style suits.

I would if the stolen Shield Booster technology that they received from the Beta had an influence on the design of the Rick Dia's Binder's and the ability to fire its beam pistols like a rear facing turret when stored in the rack between the binders?

Btw, Sorry to barge in.