Lasers, focusing lenses, and design

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Amion
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Lasers, focusing lenses, and design

Post by Amion » Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:45 pm

Ok, I'm stumped while drawing a Gundam that has laser cannons in its chest, four to be exact, like the Kshatriya's arrangement.

If I'm not totally mistaken, the cannons on the Kshatriya are scattering particle cannons used since vintage designs and up, like the Gogg or Queen Mansa. The cannons don't actually fire lasers, right? But they do reflect the particles?

The design I've got should have laser cannons, not particle cannons, but what does a laser cannon actually look like on the exterior? More importantly, what about the exterior of a laser cannon? What exactly goes into them? I know the military currently has them now, so it's not like we're totally discussing something fictional anymore. Of course the design for this Gundam is radically more powerful, with a beam in the ultraviolet spectrum, so I'm not going to expect something exactly the same as current technology.

Again, what would be a proper design? How is the laser focused on most fantasy weapons? Or real ones for that matter? Are some ways better than others? Would the firing mechanism/barrels extend outward like rifles or be cratered like the aforementioned mobile suits?
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Re: Lasers, focusing lenses, and design

Post by MythSearcher » Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:17 am

Amion wrote:Ok, I'm stumped while drawing a Gundam that has laser cannons in its chest, four to be exact, like the Kshatriya's arrangement.

If I'm not totally mistaken, the cannons on the Kshatriya are scattering particle cannons used since vintage designs and up, like the Gogg or Queen Mansa. The cannons don't actually fire lasers, right? But they do reflect the particles?

The design I've got should have laser cannons, not particle cannons, but what does a laser cannon actually look like on the exterior? More importantly, what about the exterior of a laser cannon? What exactly goes into them? I know the military currently has them now, so it's not like we're totally discussing something fictional anymore. Of course the design for this Gundam is radically more powerful, with a beam in the ultraviolet spectrum, so I'm not going to expect something exactly the same as current technology.

Again, what would be a proper design? How is the laser focused on most fantasy weapons? Or real ones for that matter? Are some ways better than others? Would the firing mechanism/barrels extend outward like rifles or be cratered like the aforementioned mobile suits?
The exterior really doesn't matter.
You will not expose the components of your laser, all you can see from the outside will the the lens parts where the beam gets out.

If you have multiple lasers to focus on a same point, you need turrets. For a single laser, you have the lens.

In more general teams, lasers with the same output power has the following properties:
1) the larger the calibre, the less it will diverge.(so you get a longer effective range)
2) the smaller the calibre, the denser the energy(before it diverges, so you get more penetrating power)
3) If the energy is too dense, it quickly evaporates the target surface(usually armour surface) and creates a screen of vapor that scatters the oncoming beam.(thus you have very little penetration and efficiency.)


Of course if you have a 5mm laser, it is not going to diverge to 5m in short ranges like a few km, so you might not want to have a 5m laser if it is for short range.

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Amion
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Re: Lasers, focusing lenses, and design

Post by Amion » Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:04 am

Thanks Myth! That helps a bit. I'm still struggling with the internal components though.

The four cannons can be warped with the same system as on the Forbidden, the Geschmeidig Panzer, or however it's pronounced. As for the lens, I think that's one thing I'm doing wrong definitely, as it still looks too much like a scattering particle cannon for my tastes. Would the lens be proportional to the size of the beam, i.e, larger, smaller equal? I'm assuming it's the size one would want the beam.
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Re: Lasers, focusing lenses, and design

Post by MythSearcher » Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:57 pm

Amion wrote:Thanks Myth! That helps a bit. I'm still struggling with the internal components though.

The four cannons can be warped with the same system as on the Forbidden, the Geschmeidig Panzer, or however it's pronounced. As for the lens, I think that's one thing I'm doing wrong definitely, as it still looks too much like a scattering particle cannon for my tastes. Would the lens be proportional to the size of the beam, i.e, larger, smaller equal? I'm assuming it's the size one would want the beam.
Well, the exterior will not look much different from a regular laser pointer, just bigger.
You can have it all hide inside the unit if you like to, depending on how much angle you want it to cover. Projecting out from the front would help a bit, but won't get you much more than 180 degrees unless you want it to be an optional weapon being hold in the hand. Check YAL-1, Laser Weapon System(LaWS) and THEL for something that is more realistic turret as a laser weapon.(If you have it on the body of an MS, the body is likely blocking at least 180 degrees of the laser) Of course if you have it hid like the ones you mentioned, the angle each can cover will be very small.(Probably something like 30~60 degrees?)

The lens will be a larger than the beam, How much larger is a matter of technology, 10~20% larger sounds reasonable. You can have it go you something like 1% larger, but anything more than that would be a challenge to the rings holding the lens.(you might also want to include some kind of cooling system around the lens and the rings if you have a really high energy density laser.

If your technology really allows it, you can do varying diameter beam(For different ranges), varying frequency beam(because a single frequency would be easy to block by coatings).

You might also want to think about the type of your laser, is it a continuous beam? an impulse beam? or the more extreme femto-laser beam?(with impulse shots in femtoseconds)
If you have say, X-watts of power output, a continuous beam gives you X-watts of power, an impulse beam gives you something like 10 shots per second and 1/100 second per shot, so you have a 10X-watts per shot.(but each only lit for 1/100 second, so the total energy is the same)
The femto-laser, you get the idea of a very very very short amount of time and very very high power(but low energy)

For a continuous beam you have a lower energy density beam that slowly(in relative terms) heats up the target and damaging an area, better for a wide spread beam that does area damage or your output power is just low. This kind of laser negates the vapourisation problem by keeping the heat to just melting the target surface, so the heat can have time to transfer out to other parts.
Impulse beam gives a high density beam for a short period, (idealistically) instantly causing a lot of penetration. Heat transfer rate of solid cannot keep up with it, so stuff vapourise really quick, impulses are timed for the vapour to disperse(or at least blown away by some of the shots), so the efficiency won't be affected that much. Femto-laser is a more specialized version of this, the period is so short and each shot gets so powerful that basically nothing can stop it, but on the other hand, the energy each shot carry is probably not very high and hard to aim at the same small spot you just hit with the last shot, so its only for really high technology settings.(It's used for medical purposes in real life, now)

You can use this calculator for easy reference.
For REALLY detailed stuff, read the Atomic Rocket entry of laser cannon.(I love it that they are referencing Gunbuster)

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Amion
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Re: Lasers, focusing lenses, and design

Post by Amion » Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:25 pm

Thanks, Myth! The THEL and YAL-1 both look great and were just what I was searching for! The THEL might be more in line with what the design is supposed to represent.

The reactor for the Gundam is super-science magic, so energy is not an issue. I think the impulse type of weapon or maybe fempto sound more like what it does, as the beams are supposed to last for a very short amount of time, cutting away at the targets with immense energy involved. Heat dispersal is also no trouble, since the armor is gelatinous and can cover over the pointy and ugly parts of the machine, while also absorbing the heat.

Yes, the beams are meant to fire in a very short arc, as they'res a whole newtype funnel deflector system for angling the lasers wherever they're needed to go, even splitting them.

That THEL looks more like as the lasers are described, being more a gun weapon rather than an eyeball thing like the YEL. For a Gundam, and we all know Wing Gundams tended to have circular jewel crests cameras or whatever, the YEL would be far more artistic a design. Guess I'll have to dabble with it.
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Re: Lasers, focusing lenses, and design

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:50 pm

Perhaps some examples of laser weapons in Gundam will help you?

-AMX-109 Capule - laser beam eye (never actually seen firing):

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/zz/lin ... 09-eye.jpg
http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/zz/amx-109.htm

-OZ-12SMS Taurus - laser beam gun (identical to a 90mm EF MG):

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/w/line ... sergun.jpg
http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/w/oz-12sms.htm

It's been a long time since I last saw Wing, but IIRC, the episode where this weapon is used seemed to indicate that laser beam weapons were more effective against the OZ-02MD Virgo's energy field than a standard (mega particle?) beam weapons.

-CCA Neo Zeon (MSN-03 & MSN-04) funnels, according to Mark:

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?t=10663
http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/cca/li ... funnel.jpg
http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/cca/msn-03.htm

Those are the ones off the top of my head right now.

Also, IIRC the MSM-10 Zock's phonon maser (the one on top of its head) is supposed to be the underwater equivalent to a laser beam weapon, at least according to the defunct Gundam Official glossary:

A phonon maser is essentially the soundwave equivalent of a laser. Just as light is made up of electromagnetic oscillations whose peaks can be quantized into individual photons, soundwaves can be similarly quantized into so-called phonons. Like the photons emitted by a laser, the phonons emitted by the maser are all in phase and of the same frequency, creating a coherent beam which can deliver large amounts of energy to its target.

http://web.archive.org/web/201112010835 ... hononmaser
http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/msgundam/msm-10.htm

I should also point out how externally the Zock's phonon maser and its mega particle guns look the same.

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Re: Lasers, focusing lenses, and design

Post by MythSearcher » Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:40 pm

Amion wrote:
The reactor for the Gundam is super-science magic, so energy is not an issue. I think the impulse type of weapon or maybe fempto sound more like what it does, as the beams are supposed to last for a very short amount of time, cutting away at the targets with immense energy involved. Heat dispersal is also no trouble, since the armor is gelatinous and can cover over the pointy and ugly parts of the machine, while also absorbing the heat.
You might want to note that in UC, defense against laser is pretty well developed. Its mainly used in the early stages of the OYW, where MSs and ships have multiple coatings(don't know how I should translate this to English, critical semi-transparent material?) to almost reflect all frequencies of lasers. The coating was developed to the ablative beam resistance coating and anti-beam coating, which is still quite useful against lasers for at least few shots. Also, with the same power output from the MS, Mega particle based beam weapons will be 5~20 times more powerful than lasers since it was pre-charged with ship power as e-caps, so in UC, you mostly only see lasers on ship AA guns.

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Re: Lasers, focusing lenses, and design

Post by Wingnut » Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:56 pm

Gelgoog Jager wrote:-OZ-12SMS Taurus - laser beam gun (identical to a 90mm EF MG):

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/w/line ... sergun.jpg
http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/w/oz-12sms.htm

It's been a long time since I last saw Wing, but IIRC, the episode where this weapon is used seemed to indicate that laser beam weapons were more effective against the OZ-02MD Virgo's energy field than a standard (mega particle?) beam weapons.
That is indeed true. However their ability to defeat armor didn't seem to be any more or less effective than a regular beam rifle, and they were prone to overheating and exploding in the hands of the MS sometimes. The beam fired was a narrow blue beam that had a similar visual effect as the thin beam mode of the Apsalus III.
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Re: Lasers, focusing lenses, and design

Post by Amion » Wed Sep 16, 2015 12:55 pm

Great info, everyone. I think the Torus guns would probably not fit what I'm drawing, though. The Capule, though! I was sure I heard something about a Capule having an unseen laser weapon. It looks like a mega particle cannon.

Oddly, the Zock's mega particle guns don't look anything like the other torso mounted cannons we see on other suits, like the Gogg or the Elephant suit from Unicorn. (what was it called? I can't recall it for the life of me). I like the look of the Zock's cannons, the warhead tip-shaped look felt more sleek to me. Hmm... but how would a laser be focused from four of those openings? Feels almost like the source material tried to cram two weapons into one there.

@Myth: yeah, I didn't come up with the machine design, and the creator's story has it so that lasers are about as unblockable as it gets, save via heat absorbing armor. Makes me think the 'lasers' are more like high energy cannons focused and narrowed for cutting than what we would call standard laser beams. Basically they're like miniaturized, focused Solar Ray systems by UC comparison, perhaps.

Regardless, I do feel that blocking lasers makes more sense by the UC standard. And thanks a bunch for informing me about the laser defense systems. Is there any source material out there for me to peruse? That would be a very informative and interesting read.
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Re: Lasers, focusing lenses, and design

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:40 pm

According to Gundam UC Bande Dessinee manga, the 5 red square openings on the Capule's torso are mega particle beams:

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/gun ... 0703022744

As for the "elephant" MS you talk about, it's the MSM-04G Juagg:

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/MSM-04G_Juaggu

Regarding the Zock, the main difference between its torso-mounted MPC guns and those of other amphibious MS seems to be the size and the 4 openings each "barrel" has:

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/gun ... 0305221740

I must point out that I don't believe I have ever seen the Zock's weapons working as a diffusion beam cannon or rather firing a spread beam shot, like the Gogg's or Juagg's. Perhaps rather than spreading beams, the Zock's weapons are meant to combine 4 small beams into a larger one. An example from another Gundam series would be the Seravee Gundam, which can combine its many beam cannon's into a single beam.

As a small bonus, here's the PS2 Journey to Jaburo version of the Zock:

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/gun ... 0323070858

This one has 6 openings on each MPC barrel and certainly looks far more like a MA than a MS.

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Re: Lasers, focusing lenses, and design

Post by Massignifico » Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:09 pm

Gelgoog Jager wrote:Perhaps rather than spreading beams, the Zock's weapons are meant to combine 4 small beams into a larger one.
But this is just a suggestion based on nothing. In the anime the Zock alternates the fire between the guns while the Seravee combines its beams thanks to a GN Field, which the Zock obviously lacks.

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Re: Lasers, focusing lenses, and design

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:33 pm

Massignifico wrote:
Gelgoog Jager wrote:Perhaps rather than spreading beams, the Zock's weapons are meant to combine 4 small beams into a larger one.
But this is just a suggestion based on nothing. In the anime the Zock alternates the fire between the guns while the Seravee combines its beams thanks to a GN Field, which the Zock obviously lacks.
UC has I-fields, which is the same technology used for firing spread beam shots to begin with.

If you want an in-universe example, perhaps we could refer to the Nahel Argama's Hyper Mega Particle as depicted in Gundam Unicorn. The rings that pop below the central catapult are most likely using i-fields to keep the beam converged, either for better control, for hitting targets at a longer range or simply to be able to sweep the beam as in the case of the 7th OVA, when used against the Neo Zeon fleet.

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Re: Lasers, focusing lenses, and design

Post by Massignifico » Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:35 pm

The Z'od-iacok has i-field generators for this very purpose but the Zock has never been described to be equipped in a similiar way. They are just mpcs that looks strange.

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Re: Lasers, focusing lenses, and design

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:28 pm

That's precisely what I've been saying: we know earlier models like the Gogg already use MPC guns which can fire either a single focused beam shot or a spread beam shots. Other MS such as the Juagg or Jurick have similar weapons, and in the case of the Juagg we have confirmation that they can function as spread beam guns as well.

AFAIK, the Zock has never been shown doing the same, despite being in games where the Gogg has such capability. The Zock is always showns firing individual beams from each MPC gun, however, as I pointed out earlier the Zock's MPC guns have multiple openings, which is odd for a MPC weapon which in other examples have been shown capable of firing spread beam shots from a single barrel.

That's why I proposed that perhaps in the case of the Zock its unique MPC guns had a different purpose/function. If these have never been showing firing spread beam shots, just individual beam shots, despite the fact that the MPC guns seem to have multiple openings, then it wouldn't be farfetched to think that the purpose of the device is focusing all the beams fired from the 4 openings into a single focused beam, which is the only way we have observed the Zock weapon's functioning as.

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Re: Lasers, focusing lenses, and design

Post by Massignifico » Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:27 pm

But why should it ever use a spread mode if it already has 4 rapid fire guns per side plus an aa one? It's not like they are consistent at all for the other acquatics (most of the time the Z'Goks mpcs fires focused beams but in Gihren's Greed it fires like a machine gun, the Gogg alternates between direct and spread beams and Char's Zgok sometimes has an extra rapid-fire mode). The openings could be an aesthetic choice, I wouldn't count them as separate barrels. (The Gottrlatan's Mega Beam Cannon is never described as having 2-barrels despite having 2 obvious openings)

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Re: Lasers, focusing lenses, and design

Post by HalfDemonInuyasha » Fri Sep 18, 2015 3:08 am

Wingnut wrote:
Gelgoog Jager wrote:-OZ-12SMS Taurus - laser beam gun (identical to a 90mm EF MG):

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/w/line ... sergun.jpg
http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/w/oz-12sms.htm

It's been a long time since I last saw Wing, but IIRC, the episode where this weapon is used seemed to indicate that laser beam weapons were more effective against the OZ-02MD Virgo's energy field than a standard (mega particle?) beam weapons.
That is indeed true. However their ability to defeat armor didn't seem to be any more or less effective than a regular beam rifle, and they were prone to overheating and exploding in the hands of the MS sometimes. The beam fired was a narrow blue beam that had a similar visual effect as the thin beam mode of the Apsalus III.
Well, I know the Wing dub mentions how the Taurus' weren't designed for the output of the laser cannons, which is what lead to such easy overheating. Such weapons were probably meant for the Virgo and Virgo II, with their Vayeate style energy collectors that could provide that necessary power, before White Fang took over the Lunar Base and the production facilities.

It almost seemed like the laser cannon to the energy field was like how the VSBR could penetrate clean through beam shields when the mega particles are sped up to make them much more focused, simply punching straight through a single point with the power focused there rather than spread out like a wave against a large wall like a normal beam cannon is against a beam shield, requiring those beams to be very powerful to be able to overwhelm the beam shield with brute force (strong scattering beam cannons, battleship class mega particle cannons, mega launchers, etc.), which Wing also demonstrated with Wing Gundam's (Zero's) (twin) buster rifle being powerful enough to overwhelm the Virgo's (and even Mercurius' in Wing Gundam Zero's case) energy shield and break through, or one of Barge's large secondary beam cannons.

Heck, even a Sanc Kingdom Taurus was able to force its way through the Virgo's energy shield with its bare hands.
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Re: Lasers, focusing lenses, and design

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:41 pm

Massignifico wrote:But why should it ever use a spread mode if it already has 4 rapid fire guns per side plus an aa one?
The Juagg also has 4 beam guns on the front an can fire spread beams from them. Also, the head beam weapon is a phonon maser for udnerwater use, not an AA beam gun. As for the "rapid fire beam guns" read below.
Massignifico wrote:It's not like they are consistent at all for the other acquatics (most of the time the Z'Goks mpcs fires focused beams but in Gihren's Greed it fires like a machine gun, the Gogg alternates between direct and spread beams and Char's Zgok sometimes has an extra rapid-fire mode).
The profile of the Z'gok E indicates that e-cap technology is needed for rapid fire beam guns:

Propellant storage for its thrusters are moved from its main body into tanks mounted inside the arms, with energy caps installed in the hand-mounted beam guns, making them able to store up power from the generator and discharge a rapid-fire, machine gun-like burst when required.

http://mahq.net/mecha/gundam/0080/msm-07e.htm

According to Mark's timeline, while Zeon MS with beam weapons have been available since the introduction of the Gogg, Zeon doesn't begin production of weapon using e-caps until late november, while the first Z'goks are rolled out on August. Therefore I think we can safely rule out the possibility of the basic MSM-07 having rapid fire beam guns. The MSM-07S is said to have replaced the MSM-07 at some point, but probably it was also developed at an earlier point if an improved model (the MSM-07E) is finished before the fall of California Base (December 5th).
Massignifico wrote:The openings could be an aesthetic choice, I wouldn't count them as separate barrels. (The Gottrlatan's Mega Beam Cannon is never described as having 2-barrels despite having 2 obvious openings)
I think that simply means that the barrels are mainly (perhaps even exclusively) intended to be fired in unison, thus disregarding the need to specify that it has 4 barrels. A famous example of combining the beams from multiple barrels is the Wing Zero's dual buster rifle.

I also went to check images of the HGUC model kit and noticed some interesting details:

-The phonon maser cannon on the head is larger than the mega particle beam guns:

http://dalong.net/review/hg/h81/p/h81_mb0001.JPG

-Its seems each beam weapon has 5 small barrels, not 4:

http://dalong.net/review/hg/h81/p/h81_r_a.jpg

-I can't read japanese, but the description of the beam weapons does seem to mention "-CAP", most likely energy cap:

http://dalong.net/review/hg/h81/p/h81_mb0002.JPG

This would go in line with the assumption that only the very last MSM units built at California Base had e-cap technology. For reference, when firt formed the Chimera Corps also lacked beam weapons for their Gelgoogs, until the MS-14C backpack was developed, which itself still used an in-built generator while e-cap technology was still being developed by Zeon.

Finally, the HGUC kits of the Hygogg and Z'gok E both mention "-CAP" (energy cap), while the HGUC and MG kits of the MSM-03, MSM-04, MSM-07 and MSM-07S don't:

http://dalong.net/review/hg/h37/p/h37_m0002.jpg
http://dalong.net/review/hg/h39/p/h39_m0002.jpg

So that pretty much confirms that the MSM-07 and MSM-07S don't have rapid fire beam weapons, while the manual of the Zock cofnirms it has e-cap technology, though we don't know for sure if its for firing rapid fire beam shots or other purpose.

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Re: Lasers, focusing lenses, and design

Post by Massignifico » Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:22 pm

The Juagg also has 4 beam guns on the front an can fire spread beams from them.
But where it does that? In unicorn they are just normal mpcs. And even then I said that Zock "wouldn't need'' a spread function not that it ''doesn't have'' it. We both don't know that and we can't assume looking at the other msms because they are inconsistent.
Also, the head beam weapon is a phonon maser for udnerwater use
You used videogames ("unofficial" sources) as examples before so I refer the Phonon Maser as an "AA Gun" because it's just what it does in most videogames and in Federation Hooligans manga, where the Zock can defend itself from all directions without any spread beams.
The profile of the Z'gok E indicates that e-cap technology is needed for rapid fire beam guns
Who cares? In Gihren's Greed the normal Z'Gok just does so, I was reporting the inconsistencies in the various media, I perfectly know that the E type has E-Caps.
thus disregarding the need to specify that it has 4 barrels. A famous example of combining the beams from multiple barrels is the Wing Zero's dual buster rifle.
Twin Buster Rifle has the Twin part in the name and is actually two weapons joined together, completely different from the Zock's weapons
I can't read japanese
Then don't, wait for someone that can

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Re: Lasers, focusing lenses, and design

Post by Amion » Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:19 am

Mass, you just called Jager out on quoting unofficial research material and then use it to back your own AA assumptions.

Please, don't turn this into the Impulse Pack thread, that's not what I asked for. :P


I think the only thing worth saying anymore about the Zock is that it has multiple firing ports, so let's assume it can fire multiple small beams, even if animation shows it doesn't.
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Re: Lasers, focusing lenses, and design

Post by Massignifico » Sat Sep 19, 2015 12:29 pm

But I didn't said it's a bad thing to quote unofficial informations, but if you do so then you can't ignore what unofficial info you don't like and endorse what seems to confirm your fantastical suggestions (which have little to contribute to the thread to begin with).

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