About weight, thrust, payloads and other oddities...

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Jameedaark
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About weight, thrust, payloads and other oddities...

Post by Jameedaark » Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:39 pm

Starting with the zaku f2 (because toysdream have analyzed M-06R series, MS-09 series and MS-14 series and many others (Thx Mark!)) I've found strange its data.
The F2 is supposed an OYW ms rolling before the MS-06FZ but his dry weight is 49,9t and full weight is 70,3t. It's supposed to be more powerful, more armored...
The F zaku is dry weight 58,1 tons and the zaku FZ is 56,2t (and is made of titanium/ceramic armor).

So, or the zaku F2 is made of gundarium, or the dry weight of 49.9t is clearly an error.
More probably is 59.9 tons dry.

Another case...the Alex gundam.
40 tons dry with all this thrust and 90mm vulcans?
Is not more probably that the alex is 50t dry and 72,5t full equipped? And 90t with the chobam?
Also the data with and without chobam dont match. Without chobam is 72.5-40=32.5 of payload. With chobam is 90-50=40 ton of payload. Is the chobam a thing that increase the payload of the alex???
I dont think so.

And in the same reasoning line I'm prone to add 10 tons at the dry weight of the Rick Dom II, the Kampfer and the Gelgoog Jeager. It's not possible that they are around 40 tons with thrust from 110.000 to 178.000Kg while the original RX-78 have only 55.500 Kg of propulsion...

And with this line of argument the mass ratio of these MS is more reasonable respect mass ratio we se in 0087 in Z Gundam mobile suits.

J

Massignifico
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Re: About weight, thrust, payloads and other oddities...

Post by Massignifico » Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:03 pm

Is the chobam a thing that increase the payload of the alex???
The rear waist armor has extra thrusters, maybe this is the cause of the increase in payload.

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Re: About weight, thrust, payloads and other oddities...

Post by Jameedaark » Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:50 pm

So probably with the 6x7000kg of the rear chobam the alex may have 7.5 tons of fuel in addition. Thx!
However 40 tons dry with 132.000kg in comparison of the rx-78 that is 43,4t with 55500kg of thrust is a big difference...
Is possible that the rx78 have more thrust unaccounted? (like the gelgoog marine in 0083...)

Massignifico
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Re: About weight, thrust, payloads and other oddities...

Post by Massignifico » Fri Sep 04, 2015 4:00 am

It's more like that while newer machines has extra thrusters which are seldom used, the RX-78-2 has just the barebones equipment.

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Re: About weight, thrust, payloads and other oddities...

Post by toysdream » Fri Sep 04, 2015 4:13 am

The Zaku F2 specs are kind of weird, aren't they? The base and full weights, though, are identical to the MS-06J specs published in Entertainment Bible 1. If you compare the F and J type specs in that book, you'll find that the J type is about 8 tons lighter in terms of base weight (presumably due to removal of space equipment) but only 3 tons lighter in full weight (so it makes up for this with extra propellant or coolant or whatever).

Later sources tend to list identical specs for the F and J types (even though that makes no sense), and even EB 1 claims that the MS-06D, MS-06K, and Gouf are really heavy, so the idea of the J type being so light seems to have been quickly discarded. However, it lasted just long enough to "infect" the MS-06F2 specs.

It might, however, be worth looking at the specs for post-One Year War machines like the Desert Zaku, Zaku Mariner, etc, which were overhauled by the Federation Forces and appear to have lost a lot of weight due to new armor materials and generator systems. Perhaps we could interpret the F2 specs as representing the Federation version, since that's the first type that appears in Gundam 0083?


As for the Alex, and the various flavors of the Rick Dom and Gelgoog, I've got nothing. My personal feeling is that the full weights for these machines seem credible, and I just try not to think about the base weights if I can help it. The recent trend to use the MS-14B's base weight of 53.5 tons for the standard Gelgoog and Char's prototype version seems like a good indication of what a rational base weight would look like.


Finally, what about the standard Gundam? It occurs to me that, if the Alex's butt thrusters are 7,000 kg apiece, then technically the Katoki version of the RX-78 (as well as his 0083 GM variations) should also have the same feature. So the "complete" RGM-79C should really have 71,500 kg of thrust with all its engines going.

-- Mark

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Jameedaark
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Re: About weight, thrust, payloads and other oddities...

Post by Jameedaark » Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:48 pm

About the Gundam I thik that in addition to the rear skirt 2x7000Kg there are some other thusters into the real calf, as we can se in the dalong.net page (thx!) we can see in the Rx78 an GM.
Maybe some 3000/4000kg for every leg.
Probably the gm dont have the butt thrusters but retain the calf thrusters...and the gm kai have the butt thrusters as upgrade.
What do you think?

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Re: About weight, thrust, payloads and other oddities...

Post by Jameedaark » Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:19 pm

And about Rick Dom and Geelgog, there are some difference between your thread "Vintage MS: Playing With Specs" and "Vintage MS Specs Forever".
In the first the Rick Dom II you calculate:
"MS-09R-2 Rick Dom II
Thruster output: 21,000 kg x 2 (back), 7,000 kg x 2 (feet), 9,800 kg x 5 (skirt), 2,500 kg x 2 (tail?), 7,000 kg x 6 (legs)
Total output: 56,000 kg + 54,000 kg (skirt & tail) + 42,000 kg (legs) = 152,000 kg

MS-14Jg Gelgoog Jaeger
Thruster output: 24,500 kg x 3 (backpack), 7,000 kg x 2 (feet), 9,800 kg x 5 (skirt), 7,000 kg x 6 (legs)
Total output: 87,500 kg + 49,000 kg (skirt) + 42,000 kg (legs) = 178,500 kg

MS-14F: 20,500 kg x 2 (backpack), 15,700 kg x 3 (skirt), 7,000 kg x 2 (feet), 7,000 kg x 6 (legs)
MS-14Fs: 20,500 kg x 3 (backpack), 15,700 kg x 3 (skirt), 7,000 kg x 2 (feet), 7,000 kg x 8 (legs)"

but in the "vintage specs forever" you dowgrade the Rick Dom II

"MS-09R-2: 21,000 kg x 2 (back), 7,000 kg x 2 (feet), 6,200 kg x 5 (skirt), 3,000 kg x 6 (legs), 2,500 kg x 2"

and also you approximate the various sub thrusters:

"Small: approx 3,000-3,500 kg (MS-06F2, FZ, and G leg thrusters; small Dom leg thrusters)
Medium: approx 4,500 kg (MS-06R-1A leg thrusters)
Large: approx 6,000-7,000 kg (MS-06R-2 leg thrusters, Dom skirt thrusters, sub-thrusters of Gelgoog Marine)"

So as you have downgraded the Rick Dom II the various Geelgog needs a ricalculation about the dimension of skirt and leg thrusters?
I note too that leg sub thrusters of geelgogs and doms have middle thruster bigger...

Regards

J

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Re: About weight, thrust, payloads and other oddities...

Post by toysdream » Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:46 pm

Yeah, I keep going back and forth on that. These days, I've kind of gone back to my original feeling that the skirt thrusters should be more powerful - the 9,800 kg spec used for the Dreissen's skirt thrusters and the Sazabi's leg thrusters seems appropriate for the Rick Dom II and Gelgoog Jaeger. I also note that the Dwadge from Gundam ZZ, the only case where the skirt thrusters are neither ridiculously powerful nor ridiculously weak, has skirt thrusters rated at 9,300 kg and leg thrusters rated at 8,200 kg apiece.

I made a post about this in response to the updated Gundam Unicorn line art for the Dom and Gelgoog series here:

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=16358

Which includes scaled charts of various machines and their leg and skirt thruster specs:

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... lineup.jpg
http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... ineup2.jpg

For the Dom and Gelgoog series, it honestly seems like the leg thrusters are usually omitted from the specs. After all, they're seldom even shown in the line art, and machines like the Dom Tropen can't even use them because of their huge hover-clogs.

-- Mark

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Re: About weight, thrust, payloads and other oddities...

Post by Jameedaark » Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:52 pm

Thx Mark!
After all these discussions about skirts madness and thrusters, I'm curious about what do you think of the specs that are presented in the different series.
In 0079 we have generally ms with thrust specs calculated on backpack + feet but with exceptions as the gelgoog that not have the backpack.
In zeta gundam instead the thusters specs method vary from ms to ms but we have mobile suits that are in continuity to the original series about weight, thrust and power.
In 0083 we have specs of thrust that are much much much higher than zeta, in particular in the gp01 family and mobile armors.
In 0080 we have OYW mobile suits, but almost all with thrust specs doubled or tripled in regard of the ms of the era in which they are.
This is all very confusing...
In your opinion, is possible find a way to harmonize data from different series?
Regards
J

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Re: About weight, thrust, payloads and other oddities...

Post by MythSearcher » Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:24 am

toysdream wrote: For the Dom and Gelgoog series, it honestly seems like the leg thrusters are usually omitted from the specs. After all, they're seldom even shown in the line art, and machines like the Dom Tropen can't even use them because of their huge hover-clogs.

-- Mark
Sadly, the most realistic design should have the most powerful thrusters(Main) installed on the legs.

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Re: About weight, thrust, payloads and other oddities...

Post by toysdream » Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:03 pm

Honestly, when you look at the actual performance of the mobile suits, the 0080 specs don't seem terribly farfetched to me. The Rick Dom II has almost exactly the same thrust-to-weight ratio as the Rick Dias - that just means a higher thruster output because the mobile suit itself is a lot heavier. When we see vintage One Year War machines fighting in Gundam ZZ, they certainly don't seem vastly slower than the new ones.

It's a little annoying when the specs seem inconsistent within a single work. Gundam 0083 is a major offender here, but so is Zeta Gundam - a lot of the machines that appear in the second half of the show, such as the Hambrabi and Palace Athene and Bolinoak Samaan and Qubeley, seem really wimpy and underpowered compared to those in the first half.

Speaking of Gundam 0083, in some cases - the Rick Dom II, Cima's Gelgoog Marine - they seem to have halved their thrust relative to their Gundam 0080 equivalents. If that's an attempt at a correction, I think they overcompensated. If you wanted to "correct" the 0080 specs, and those of the Gundams from 0083, it's probably better to lower their thruster outputs by 1/3. Compare:

RX-77D: 93,500 kg -> 62,300 kg (almost identical to RX-77-3)
RX-78GP01: 108,000 kg -> 72,000 kg (almost identical to Powered GM testbed)
RGM-79SP: 102,000 kg -> 68,000 kg (almost identical to RGM-79N)
MS-06FZ: 79,500 kg -> 53,000 kg (almost identical to MS-06F2)

And so forth. But again, I'm not actually that bothered by the current specs, since these machines seem pretty high-performance in the anime. I'm more troubled by the wimpiness of all those Zeta mobile suits...

-- Mark

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Re: About weight, thrust, payloads and other oddities...

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:37 pm

MythSearcher wrote:
toysdream wrote: For the Dom and Gelgoog series, it honestly seems like the leg thrusters are usually omitted from the specs. After all, they're seldom even shown in the line art, and machines like the Dom Tropen can't even use them because of their huge hover-clogs.

-- Mark
Sadly, the most realistic design should have the most powerful thrusters(Main) installed on the legs.
Actually some games seem to provide a good idea of how a Dom type, even a Dom Tropen, can make full use of its thrusters on the ground. Basically the Dom bends its knees while leaning to the front, this way the calf thrusters are exposed and pointed to the rear, while the backpack thrusters also end up pointing to the rear rather than downwards. Such stance is used when a Dom boosts on the ground on games like MSG: Battle Operation, and effectively seems to allow them to point all their thrusters to the rear in order to use them at the same time.

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Re: About weight, thrust, payloads and other oddities...

Post by Jameedaark » Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:41 pm

When I see the Gelgoog JG with 178500Kg or the Kampfer with 159000Kg of thrust, and then I see the MkII with 81200Kg and the Zeta with 112600, I think something is wrong in Zeta or in 0080/0083...

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Re: About weight, thrust, payloads and other oddities...

Post by toysdream » Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:43 pm

I feel that way when I compare the specs of the Bolinoak, Hambrabi, etc, to the stuff earlier in Zeta. Whatcha gonna do?

-- Mark

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Re: About weight, thrust, payloads and other oddities...

Post by Jameedaark » Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:19 am

Probably we can assume that in 0080 and 0083 there are mobile suits that have great thrust to achieve better performance but in zeta, with more powerful generators and more verniers the various ms have much better mobility so an enormous thrust is no more necessary...

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Re: About weight, thrust, payloads and other oddities...

Post by MrMarch » Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:49 pm

I thought I remembered reading in several 0080 and 0083 mecha profiles that the enhanced thrust came at the expense of operational time. More thrust uses more fuel/reaction mass, hence less deployable time in the field. Later mobile suits might not have the thrust of earlier suits because they are designed for a much longer operational time in the field.

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Re: About weight, thrust, payloads and other oddities...

Post by Jameedaark » Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:51 pm

Yes I agree. A machine with only few minutes of fuel autonomy can be exceptional as top performances but useless in battle.

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Re: About weight, thrust, payloads and other oddities...

Post by MrMarch » Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:53 am

Okay, found the passages I knew I had read about the late-and-post OYW mecha. For the MS-14Jg Gelgoog Jaeger from Gundam 0080 the official trivia mentions:
"the increased thrust and fuel consumption was offset by a pair of large external propellant tanks mounted on the backpack".
And for the MS-06FZ Zaku II Kai, another mention of the far greater thrust affecting operational time...
"However, one drawback to the increased performance was that the Zaku II Kai's operational time was reduced by half, as it used fuel twice as fast due to the added thrust"
And also, the MS-18E Kaempfer makes mention of this performance vs. operational time again...
"however, its speed and high number of thrusters resulted in high fuel consumption and a limited operational time"
So yeah, the official statistics are not exactly anachronistic. One just has to take into account what each mobile suit is designed for and consider the other factors involved. Then the increased thrust makes sense for those mobile suits which at first glance may have far superior performance for the era in which they were built (yet suffer from operational disadvantages as a result).

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Re: About weight, thrust, payloads and other oddities...

Post by Massignifico » Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:28 pm

One should also consider that on many mobile suits the thrusters aren't pointed in the same direction so a mobile armor or trasformable mobile suit should still be faster even with less gs of thrust.

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Re: About weight, thrust, payloads and other oddities...

Post by Nebfer » Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:13 am

It's not really about the acceleration rates, 2G is not twice as fast as 1G (travel times), to reach a location in half the time you will need 4 times the thrust.

However your over all speed is not dictated by your acceleration rate but by your fuel efficiency (known as ISP) and or Delta V (total change in velocity).
Chemical Rockets top out with a ISP of about 500, basic Nuclear Rockets like say NERVA types get around 800 to 1,000 and can reach about 2,000, more advanced types can get into the range of 5,000 or more, but many of these are a bit on the radioactive side (like a Gas Core NTR, basically a engine that uses a ball of Uranium plasma (core temp 37,000+ F) to heat up H2 and throws that out at very high speeds, but some of the uranium is also thrown out as well, ISP can reach 10,000).

Then theirs fusion, which can get very high ISP values, but I believe most Gundam series use nuclear rockets IIRC.

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