multiple chest flyer and leg flyer for impulse but 1 core?

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Den
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multiple chest flyer and leg flyer for impulse but 1 core?

Post by Den » Wed Sep 02, 2015 4:04 am

this struck me as being really weird when they have multiple chest and leg flyer stored in the minerva but only a single core splendor is assigned to the ship, did they give any reason as to why they only have a single core splendor? wouldn't it make more sense to have more impulse sortie?

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Re: multiple chest flyer and leg flyer for impulse but 1 cor

Post by MythSearcher » Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:33 am

Den wrote:this struck me as being really weird when they have multiple chest and leg flyer stored in the minerva but only a single core splendor is assigned to the ship, did they give any reason as to why they only have a single core splendor? wouldn't it make more sense to have more impulse sortie?
Usually this is rationalized by saying the core is really expensive.
In older shows it might well be reasonable since computers in those days are the most expensive part, enough so that they are unwilling to abandon it everytime on launch of rockets and developed the space shuttle. In more modern situations, no so much, since computers are cheap and really expendible comparing older smart phone computing power vs the Saturn V computing power...

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Re: multiple chest flyer and leg flyer for impulse but 1 cor

Post by JEFFPIATT » Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:00 pm

the core fighter concept was aimed at protecting the combat data in first gundam the impulse was aimed for quick repair zaft had 4 core splenders one on merniva and 3 as cores in destiny impulse test units

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Re: multiple chest flyer and leg flyer for impulse but 1 cor

Post by Den » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:53 am

ahhh but there is no in universe explanation as to why they had a seemingly large number of the other flyers while they only had 4 core splendor unit

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Re: multiple chest flyer and leg flyer for impulse but 1 cor

Post by Kuruni » Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:17 am

I think it's mstly because Impulse is more or less unique unit for Shinn, without actual plan for mass produce (until you introduce gray zone from Astray).

Just like V Gundam before it, when chest and leg flyers get damaged, recombine with replacement flyer can fix it. But when Core Splendor is damaged and can't fly back to Minerva, it's unlikely that the Shinn will be in condition of recombine either. So it make sense that one set of Impulse would has many spare flyers but only few Core Splendor.

To make it easier to understand, lets say it's Gunpla Battle. If support is allowed, it make sense that Impulse's user will have many flyers in stock but single Core Splendor. Because he can replace chest and leg flyer as long as the Core Splendor remain in field, but if the Core Splendor is destroyed, then the game just end.
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Re: multiple chest flyer and leg flyer for impulse but 1 cor

Post by monster » Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:33 am

Essentially, only one Impulse unit was assigned to the Minerva, which is represented by one core unit and however many chest and leg flyers are deemed necessary to support that single core unit in a typical deployment.

Assigning more core units to Minerva would necessitate adding more flyer units, which might not be feasible given storage space of the Minerva or potentially other concerns.

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Re: multiple chest flyer and leg flyer for impulse but 1 cor

Post by Den » Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:19 am

but wouldn't having lets say three impulse be better than an impulse with 2 zakus? wherein instead of the gunner zaku, the blast impulse can be used, and other silhouette be used instead of being in storage

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Re: multiple chest flyer and leg flyer for impulse but 1 cor

Post by Den » Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:27 am

Kuruni wrote:I think it's mstly because Impulse is more or less unique unit for Shinn, without actual plan for mass produce (until you introduce gray zone from Astray).

Just like V Gundam before it, when chest and leg flyers get damaged, recombine with replacement flyer can fix it. But when Core Splendor is damaged and can't fly back to Minerva, it's unlikely that the Shinn will be in condition of recombine either. So it make sense that one set of Impulse would has many spare flyers but only few Core Splendor.

To make it easier to understand, lets say it's Gunpla Battle. If support is allowed, it make sense that Impulse's user will have many flyers in stock but single Core Splendor. Because he can replace chest and leg flyer as long as the Core Splendor remain in field, but if the Core Splendor is destroyed, then the game just end.
but Luna was able to effectively pilot the impulse albeit to a lesser expertise than shinn, and there have been other pilots for the other produced impulses

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Re: multiple chest flyer and leg flyer for impulse but 1 cor

Post by Kuruni » Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:14 am

Edit button is there, use it.

Other Impulse were produced later, to be used with Destiny Silhouette (the gray zone I mentioned). AFAIK, the Core Splendor is no longer focus of these additional units, with Destiny Silhouete there is no reason to switch silhouette anymore (at least that's what the engineers seem to think).

And yes, Luna can use it yet not as good as Shinn, thus proving the point.
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Re: multiple chest flyer and leg flyer for impulse but 1 cor

Post by monster » Tue Sep 08, 2015 11:47 am

Den wrote:but wouldn't having lets say three impulse be better than an impulse with 2 zakus? wherein instead of the gunner zaku, the blast impulse can be used, and other silhouette be used instead of being in storage
Maybe, maybe not. If you have to take turn deploying your mobile suits one by one, it'll be too slow of a deployment in some battle situations. The Impulse is, for all intents and purposes, still a newer piece of technology, so they wouldn't entrust a ship's fighting force to it alone.

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Re: multiple chest flyer and leg flyer for impulse but 1 cor

Post by Brave Fencer Kirby » Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:45 pm

IIRC, part of the Junius Treaty that ended the Bloody Valentine War was to impose limits on the number of mobile suits that each side was allowed to have. Having multiple chest/leg fliers but only one core is a dodge around this -- because you only have one core, you can claim that it only counts as one mobile suit, but having multiple chest/leg fliers means you have less downtime for maintenance and repairs, as you can just swap out a part that's ready to go and fix individual parts separately instead of having to take the entire mecha out of service. This is the same reason that ZAFT started making its own version of the striker packs -- when you have a treaty-mandated limit on how many mobile suits you can have, then making each individual mobile suit as flexible as possible is an important strategic goal.
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Re: multiple chest flyer and leg flyer for impulse but 1 cor

Post by MythSearcher » Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:22 am

monster wrote:
Den wrote:but wouldn't having lets say three impulse be better than an impulse with 2 zakus? wherein instead of the gunner zaku, the blast impulse can be used, and other silhouette be used instead of being in storage
Maybe, maybe not. If you have to take turn deploying your mobile suits one by one, it'll be too slow of a deployment in some battle situations. The Impulse is, for all intents and purposes, still a newer piece of technology, so they wouldn't entrust a ship's fighting force to it alone.
The main problem of this is the launch pad of impulse is a waste of space.
It might be smaller than the regular MS launch pad, but you need to launch 3~4 units before you have a full strength fighting MS.
So even if it launch each unit at 2X the speed, you can still launch 2 MS from a regular launch pad if you get 4 units out, which is just 1 MS+back pack.
(and if you design the MSs to launch laying down, the catapult width can be as narrow as Impulse's.)

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Re: multiple chest flyer and leg flyer for impulse but 1 cor

Post by monster » Wed Sep 09, 2015 5:03 am

MythSearcher wrote:The main problem of this is the launch pad of impulse is a waste of space.
It might be smaller than the regular MS launch pad, but you need to launch 3~4 units before you have a full strength fighting MS.
So even if it launch each unit at 2X the speed, you can still launch 2 MS from a regular launch pad if you get 4 units out, which is just 1 MS+back pack.
(and if you design the MSs to launch laying down, the catapult width can be as narrow as Impulse's.)
The launch pad itself is not a problem. One reason why the Impulse is not launched as one unit is probably because it's easier to maintain as separate units.

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Re: multiple chest flyer and leg flyer for impulse but 1 cor

Post by MythSearcher » Wed Sep 09, 2015 8:21 am

monster wrote: The launch pad itself is not a problem. One reason why the Impulse is not launched as one unit is probably because it's easier to maintain as separate units.

Of course not, you can always put them together after maintenance.
After you are sure the top and bottom part works, fit them onto the core and form the whole MS.
That way you can also test if the connection works or not.

Makes much more sense that way.

If you really want to make use a a smaller launch pad, you can use it to launch the back pack system on normal scramble and parts if you need them during combat. But using it to launch separate parts and let them combine in mid air at scramble? Bad idea. Especially when you have only a dozen of MSs.

What do you do when you are under enemy fire? Yes, if you launch a MS and it got shot, you have no MS to use, but if you launch a MS in 3 separate launches, you thrice the chance of loosing the battle power of a whole MS. Not to mention the combine sequence itself is completely target practice for your enemies.

So, combining MS in ship when you have spare time before battle and launching it once, immediately battle ready; or keep parts separate, rush launch for 3~4 times during battle, than have all your vunerable parts exposed to enemy snipers before you do a combination sequence? Pretty easy choice if you ask me. The latter only appeals in Super Robot shows.

Even with in show rationale, at 2X speed per launch, 2 MS launch pads and 1 core launch pad(accumilative) vs 2 MS launch pads(accumilative) with just 1 core:
1st launch: 2 MS, 2 parts vs 2MS
2nd launch: 2 MS, 2 parts(5 MS) vs 2MS(4MS)
3rd launch: 2MS(7MS) vs 2MS(6MS)
4th launch: 2MS(9MS) vs 2MS(8MS)
5th launch: 2MS(11MS) vs 2MS(10MS)
6th launch: 1MS(12 MS) vs 2MS (12 MS)

You still need 5 launches for 10MS and 6 launches for 12 MS. Whats the point of building and maintaining an extra launch pad? It is only a bit smaller, why not install a regular launch pad with regular parts and have a full 3MS launch cycle?(which is 20% faster in launch speeds and required only 4 launches for all 12 MS) You probably need much more new parts for the smaller launch pad since it is not standard issue as well. Probably the combination sequence doesn't finish until your 4th launch.

If you say it is for ease of maintenance, say, all of your MSs can be launched in parts, you still want to fully utilize your 2.5 MS cycle launch, with most of them launched in MS mode instead of separated. (2.5, 5, 7.5, 10) one extra catapult and launch pad that is bigger than half of a regular one, only visible advantage at 4th launch. pretty bad choice. 2 of my MSs cannot immediately battle so the total time before all MS are ready probably still streches to the 5th~6th launch.

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Re: multiple chest flyer and leg flyer for impulse but 1 cor

Post by monster » Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:47 pm

MythSearcher wrote:Of course not, you can always put them together after maintenance.
After you are sure the top and bottom part works, fit them onto the core and form the whole MS.
That way you can also test if the connection works or not.

Makes much more sense that way.

If you really want to make use a a smaller launch pad, you can use it to launch the back pack system on normal scramble and parts if you need them during combat. But using it to launch separate parts and let them combine in mid air at scramble? Bad idea. Especially when you have only a dozen of MSs.
Putting the Impulse together inside the ship would take space away from another mobile suit that can use it whereas storing the Impulse as separate units provides more storage options.
What do you do when you are under enemy fire? Yes, if you launch a MS and it got shot, you have no MS to use, but if you launch a MS in 3 separate launches, you thrice the chance of loosing the battle power of a whole MS. Not to mention the combine sequence itself is completely target practice for your enemies.

So, combining MS in ship when you have spare time before battle and launching it once, immediately battle ready; or keep parts separate, rush launch for 3~4 times during battle, than have all your vunerable parts exposed to enemy snipers before you do a combination sequence? Pretty easy choice if you ask me. The latter only appeals in Super Robot shows.
Providing 3 separate targets rather than one, especially when only one of them holds the pilot, seems fine to me. You also have to take into account that the Impulse is designed so it can replace its parts as necessary without returning to the ship. So they have to have a way to send the parts out anyway.
Even with in show rationale, at 2X speed per launch, 2 MS launch pads and 1 core launch pad(accumilative) vs 2 MS launch pads(accumilative) with just 1 core:
1st launch: 2 MS, 2 parts vs 2MS
2nd launch: 2 MS, 2 parts(5 MS) vs 2MS(4MS)
3rd launch: 2MS(7MS) vs 2MS(6MS)
4th launch: 2MS(9MS) vs 2MS(8MS)
5th launch: 2MS(11MS) vs 2MS(10MS)
6th launch: 1MS(12 MS) vs 2MS (12 MS)

You still need 5 launches for 10MS and 6 launches for 12 MS. Whats the point of building and maintaining an extra launch pad? It is only a bit smaller, why not install a regular launch pad with regular parts and have a full 3MS launch cycle?(which is 20% faster in launch speeds and required only 4 launches for all 12 MS) You probably need much more new parts for the smaller launch pad since it is not standard issue as well. Probably the combination sequence doesn't finish until your 4th launch.

If you say it is for ease of maintenance, say, all of your MSs can be launched in parts, you still want to fully utilize your 2.5 MS cycle launch, with most of them launched in MS mode instead of separated. (2.5, 5, 7.5, 10) one extra catapult and launch pad that is bigger than half of a regular one, only visible advantage at 4th launch. pretty bad choice. 2 of my MSs cannot immediately battle so the total time before all MS are ready probably still streches to the 5th~6th launch.
The point of building a separate launch pad is to be able to send the parts out separately and quickly without interfering with other mobile suits launching from the regular launch pad.

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Re: multiple chest flyer and leg flyer for impulse but 1 cor

Post by MythSearcher » Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:31 am

You are thinking more in lines of "How do we do with those parts" instead of "If it is rational of not".
monster wrote: Putting the Impulse together inside the ship would take space away from another mobile suit that can use it whereas storing the Impulse as separate units provides more storage options.
Hardly. You still need that much space for all the components, and you cannot really pack them as tight as an MS. The space around each part is wasted. Spare parts in the sense of every single component like a screw or the motors/actuators for the MSs are stored separately to begin with anyway, but that is talking about parts you don't really need to scramble.
At the very least you need to have space for the cranks to move around the parts to haul them around, and more space for maintenance. For one whole MS, those spaces over laps with each other, but when separated, you need to have those spaces for all of them.
For the cranks, you need at least 1m around the parts, as well as mechnisms that hold them in place(so they don't slide or float around). for mechanics to move around it, preferably 1.5m~2m, for component parts to be moved in and maintenace, likely more than 3~4m.
Impulse separate units need to have those space around all those parts, the wasted space will be huge.

The other storage options you are talking about probably involves packing them tight together, but that makes it even harder to scramble, which is bad for combat.
Providing 3 separate targets rather than one, especially when only one of them holds the pilot, seems fine to me. You also have to take into account that the Impulse is designed so it can replace its parts as necessary without returning to the ship. So they have to have a way to send the parts out anyway.
I don't see why that is fine. You get a part shot down, you need even more time to launch and combine, while the other parts out there provdes less protection for your pilot than a regular MS.

Pilots get back to ship not only for repairing the unit they are using, but also for their own resupply, refreshment and rest, letting them replace parts in the middle of the battle field sounds efficient but at the same time you are exposing them in danger, getting them less time to rest, and pushing the work of the mechanics to the pilot(where fitting parts together is the job of the mechanics and while they are at that the pilot can rest)

"Instead of letting you rest in the relatively safer mother ship, you have to work extra hard in a more dangerous situation and combine in front of your enemies so your coworkers can repair the parts faster to let you fight for even longer periods"

Sound pretty inhumane and a really bad boss to his workers.

Why not just "Let me put this big target sign on your unit so your enemies can target you easier"

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Re: multiple chest flyer and leg flyer for impulse but 1 cor

Post by domino » Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:53 am

MythSearcher wrote:
What do you do when you are under enemy fire? Yes, if you launch a MS and it got shot, you have no MS to use, but if you launch a MS in 3 separate launches, you thrice the chance of loosing the battle power of a whole MS. Not to mention the combine sequence itself is completely target practice for your enemies.
Eh.....unlikely that all 3 units can be single-shotted at the same time during launch so it's actually SAFER to launch the Impulse in separate parts which can combine easily (probably faster than the animation indicates). If one of the units is shot down then it can be replaced easily - as long as it's not the CoreFighter. Shinn was probably chosen as the pilot because of how well he utilized the various weapons packs of the Impulse

What is VERY SILLY though is that the Impulse is shown to return to the Minerva in full mobile suit combination but always launches as separate units. That's obviously not ideal if the maintenance crew is required to disassemble the Impulse while INSIDE the Minerva.

Maybe Shinn is a daredevil who likes to launch in separate units. I can't remember if Luna ever launched in a combined Impulse

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Re: multiple chest flyer and leg flyer for impulse but 1 cor

Post by monster » Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:30 am

MythSearcher wrote:You are thinking more in lines of "How do we do with those parts" instead of "If it is rational of not".
Those are not mutually exclusive questions.
Hardly. You still need that much space for all the components, and you cannot really pack them as tight as an MS. The space around each part is wasted. Spare parts in the sense of every single component like a screw or the motors/actuators for the MSs are stored separately to begin with anyway, but that is talking about parts you don't really need to scramble.
At the very least you need to have space for the cranks to move around the parts to haul them around, and more space for maintenance. For one whole MS, those spaces over laps with each other, but when separated, you need to have those spaces for all of them.
For the cranks, you need at least 1m around the parts, as well as mechnisms that hold them in place(so they don't slide or float around). for mechanics to move around it, preferably 1.5m~2m, for component parts to be moved in and maintenace, likely more than 3~4m.
Impulse separate units need to have those space around all those parts, the wasted space will be huge.

The other storage options you are talking about probably involves packing them tight together, but that makes it even harder to scramble, which is bad for combat.
The parts are stored separately than a whole mobile suit. As long as they need to store the parts, it's better to keep all of the parts together than to use the space for a whole mobile suit on the Impulse.
I don't see why that is fine. You get a part shot down, you need even more time to launch and combine, while the other parts out there provdes less protection for your pilot than a regular MS.

Pilots get back to ship not only for repairing the unit they are using, but also for their own resupply, refreshment and rest, letting them replace parts in the middle of the battle field sounds efficient but at the same time you are exposing them in danger, getting them less time to rest, and pushing the work of the mechanics to the pilot(where fitting parts together is the job of the mechanics and while they are at that the pilot can rest)

"Instead of letting you rest in the relatively safer mother ship, you have to work extra hard in a more dangerous situation and combine in front of your enemies so your coworkers can repair the parts faster to let you fight for even longer periods"

Sound pretty inhumane and a really bad boss to his workers.

Why not just "Let me put this big target sign on your unit so your enemies can target you easier"
Any kind of scenario where the smaller parts could be shot down would apply even more toward the bigger combined unit as a whole.

If the pilot needs to rest or have another reason to return, then they would return regardless. Launching the Impulse in parts or having the capability to replace the parts on the field does not remove that possibility.
Last edited by monster on Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: multiple chest flyer and leg flyer for impulse but 1 cor

Post by MythSearcher » Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:36 am

domino wrote:
Eh.....unlikely that all 3 units can be single-shotted at the same time during launch so it's actually SAFER to launch the Impulse in separate parts which can combine easily (probably faster than the animation indicates). If one of the units is shot down then it can be replaced easily - as long as it's not the CoreFighter. Shinn was probably chosen as the pilot because of how well he utilized the various weapons packs of the Impulse

What is VERY SILLY though is that the Impulse is shown to return to the Minerva in full mobile suit combination but always launches as separate units. That's obviously not ideal if the maintenance crew is required to disassemble the Impulse while INSIDE the Minerva.

Maybe Shinn is a daredevil who likes to launch in separate units. I can't remember if Luna ever launched in a combined Impulse
You don't need to get all shot down, the top part down, you cannot form an MS, the bottom part down, you cannot form an MS.
The core down, you lose the pilot and the MS.(with tons of top and bottom parts becoming useless)
For the top and bottom parts, replacing them is not a short period, the parts that are out are still under enemy fire, the enemy still got a whole launch sequence period to shoot at those parts, and what do you do when another part is shot down? launch yet another one? The combining sequence is also a perfect time to shoot at you, especially the core has to get between the top and bottom part, so it will be way too simple to predict where to shoot at.

If combining is easy, there's even less reason to combine outside, combine inside the launch pad.

BTW, IRL combining different metal parts together is not that easy, ramming into each other at high speed usually damage stuff, and things that weights at least a few tons each will require very high level of precision, meaning it is an automatic system instead of human controlled.
So the cranks in the ship should be much more capable in a more controlled setting and can combine the MS faster.
monster wrote: Those are not mutually exclusive questions.
At the same time you have to solve the latter before talking about the first becomes useful.
Any kind of scenario where the smaller parts could be shot down would apply even more toward the bigger combined unit as a whole.

If the pilot needs to rest or have another reason to return, then they would return regardless. Launching the Impulse in parts or having the capability to replace the parts on the field does not remove that possibility.
If the hand of the MS got shot down, it is still an MS just without the arm, it can still fight.
If it is the top part, do you combine as an MS and fight or do you wait for a new part?
and can you still combine if the connecting parts get shot? Armour protecting those? how much more armour weight do you want to add to this thing?

Think of the actual design, not imagine the thing is going to work as well as other MSs.

Pilots usually need rest to prepare for more fights, you are giving them more work to do and the decision to make, which they are not suited to make since you as the commanding officer(at least in this case, the higher up that decides if you want to build Impulse or regular MS) know more information of the whole battle field than a mere pilot.

And you completely ignored the wasted space problem, the dead weight the combination system will hold and the danger of combining in battle.

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Re: multiple chest flyer and leg flyer for impulse but 1 cor

Post by monster » Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:52 am

MythSearcher wrote:At the same time you have to solve the latter before talking about the first becomes useful.
Of course, and both are answered.
If the hand of the MS got shot down, it is still an MS just without the arm, it can still fight.
If it is the top part, do you combine as an MS and fight or do you wait for a new part?
and can you still combine if the connecting parts get shot? Armour protecting those? how much more armour weight do you want to add to this thing?

Think of the actual design, not imagine the thing is going to work as well as other MSs.
Enemy pilots wouldn't normally target the arm. It is easier to target critical areas of a combined unit than that of two separate parts and the smaller core unit.

And if a part was shot down, it is up to the discretion of the pilot on what to do while a new part is launched.
Pilots usually need rest to prepare for more fights, you are giving them more work to do and the decision to make, which they are not suited to make since you as the commanding officer(at least in this case, the higher up that decides if you want to build Impulse or regular MS) know more information of the whole battle field than a mere pilot.
As I said, the pilot still has that choice if he needs it or the commanding officer can give the order. You're also forgetting that the pilot is a coordinator.
And you completely ignored the wasted space problem, the dead weight the combination system will hold and the danger of combining in battle.
There is no wasted space as they need to provide room for the parts. Wasted space is taking the place of a whole unit.

There is no dead weight as the combination system has a purpose.

There is always danger in going to a battle. This simply provides additional option for the pilot that, as with any other tool, he needs to use wisely.

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