Dom Evolution?

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LtFrankie
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Dom Evolution?

Post by LtFrankie » Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:05 pm

How the heck does it work?

At least with the Zaku II it seems fairly straight forward. The C type leads to the J & F Type. The J type is what leads to the G Type & Gouf. The F2 is a more advanced Zaku II, the HiMo was the precursor to the Gelgoog and the Zaku Kai was a result of the UMP.

But what about the Dom series? There seems to be so many "next generation" replacements for the vanilla (Rick) Dom. There's the Rick Dom II (which I assume has a Dom II variant), Dowadge, Dom Funf and Pezun Dowadge.

Were they all developed simultaneously and meant to fill the same roles or what?

Massignifico
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Re: Dom Evolution?

Post by Massignifico » Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:42 pm

Maybe there isn't a line of development as every variant seem to have a different goal.

The Rick Dom II is the UMP version of the Rick Dom, designed to have common parts and cockpit with other machines like the Zaku FZ and Gelgoog J. It seems to be operable in both space and atmosphere but the green units that do so could be modified. (I never understood why Rick Doms are demeed to be space only, the Zaku II F is a space MS but can fight on ground just fine)

The Funf is the opposite because it's a single MS designed to cover all roles with different equipments (the Tropen is just the most common and the only animated one).

The Dowadge is probably a development from the Dom High Speed Experimental Type (from MSV-R). It seems to be a pure ground combat successor to the Dom.

The Pezun Dowadge is the most mysterious one, so dunno. Maybe like the Act Zaku is developed to be the pinnacle of Dom line.

If I can comment on the Zaku line imo isn't that straightforward at all. The Hi-Mo leads to both Gelgoog and Act Zaku, but if there is already the Gelgoog what is the need for the second? The F2 and FZ seems related but the first is a multirole unit and the second is suited just for defense, it gets used for attack in 0080 just because like the other UMP units it's produced in Granada, the nearest Zeon base. There are also some late Zaku variants like the Cannon which is based on the J instead of the G or F2 types which are better.

It's just a case of crazy Gundam evolution lines.

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JEFFPIATT
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Re: Dom Evolution?

Post by JEFFPIATT » Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:16 pm

The rick dom removed the hover jets thet the ms-09b had and replaced them with rockets and fuel tanks. the r-2 was an update to make the rick dom UMP compliment.

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Gelgoog Jager
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Re: Dom Evolution?

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:47 pm

First of all we need to clarify some things:

-There are two main classifications of Dom Types: ground types and space types. The main difference is that the ground models have hoverjets while the space types have regular thrusters. Therefore ground models could not use their hoverjets in space and most likely space models would be unable to hover at the same speed and/or with the same duration as a ground model. It should be pointed out that the Rick Dom is referred to as the result of adapting the Dom for space combat, so while equivalents for different terrains, we could say that the Rick Dom is a descendant from the Dom.

-There seem to be two main development sites for the Dom series: California Base and Granada. The units built at Granada seem to be based on the YMS-09 (MS-09A), and would include the YMS-09D (MS-09D), MS-09K-1 and MS-09K-2. The Units built at Granade include the standard MS-09 (MS-09B), MS-09R, MS-09R2 and most likely other units built that share the same frame such as the MS-09G, Cold Climate Dom and YMS-09J. The MS-10 supposedly was being developed at A Baoa Qu along the other MS-X units, but was relocated to the Pezun asteroid before the final battle at A Baoa Qu. My guess is that much like the Gigan and Gasshia, it was a localized combat model meant to fight on low gravity environments (colonies and the surface of asteroids).

Taken that into consideration (and taking some liberties based on speculation) the Dom's development line could something like:

-YMS-09 (MS-09A) - Prototype/California version of the Dom
--MS-09 (MS-09B) - Granada version of the Dom (the design most likely already has taken into consideration the possible conversion into a space use unit)
--YMS-09D (MS-09D) - Tropical use variant
--MS-09K-1 - Artillery variant (long range)
---MS-09K-2 - Artillery variant (middle range)

-MS-09B
--MS-09B (cold climate use) - Cold climate variant
--MS-09G - MS-09B descendant optimized for ground use
--YMS-09J - high mobility experimental variant
--MS-09R - MS-09B converted for space use

-MS-09R
--MS-09R2 - MS-09R descendant optimized for space use
---MS-09R2 (colony use) - MS-09R2 modified for localized use on low gravity environments
--MS-10 - MS-09R descendant optimized for localized use in low gravity environments

-MS-09B/MS-09R
--MS-09F - hybrid Dom/Rick Dom variant emphasizing modularity for ease of change of equipment

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Re: Dom Evolution?

Post by Massignifico » Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:13 pm

I did forgot about the Prototype Dom line...

Still the question is not easy to answer because the Dom Funf is stated to be the last Dom type before the end of the war but this conflicts with other models like the Pezun Dowadge (which should be a pretty late war MS) and the Dowas (and it's tropical version, that shares the MS-09F designation with the Funf) which is the base for the Rick Dias.

Other obscure variants includes the commander's version of the Rick Dom (from Gundam 0081 OVA) which is aestetically the same but is stated to have a more powerful generator that powers a Beam Bazooka (maybe Gato's Rick Dom is a commander type, too) and the Zeonic Front's Dom Funf that looks like the Dom from 08th ms team but green and powerful enough to use the Gelgoog's Beam Rifle.

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Gelgoog Jager
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Re: Dom Evolution?

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:33 pm

Well, the Pezun Dwadge literally receives a different anme and model number, so that still leaves room for a an actual MS-09 series Dom to take the "last type" produced during the war. By comparison, the MS-06FZ Zaku Kai is also said to be the last Zaku variant produced during the war, but then we have the MS-11 Act Zaku.

I'm not sure how much credit to give the obscure variants from videogames and mangas, specially when they come at odds with official variants, or as in the case of the MS-09F Dom Funf, where such obscure units borrow its name or model number.

Both the MS-09R and MS-09RS can use beam bazookas. IIRC the main difference is that the MS-09RS' generator can suplement the one integrated into the beam bazooka, allowing a higher firing rate than that a regular MS-09R would be capable of, since the later relies solely on the generator output of the beam bazooka.

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Re: Dom Evolution?

Post by Massignifico » Fri Aug 07, 2015 10:18 pm

If we talk about model numbers then the Act Zaku is justified because it's MS-11 and not a 06. I believe the Dowas Desert had the 09F designation before it was given to the Funf.

Regarding the variants gerarchy, well, the "official" variants aren't less obscure than some of the "obscure" ones. The Dowas has more data and lineart than the Funf, which is depicted in exotic variants but never in it's original form. It was even suggested that the one in the Gwazine was not a Funf but a "Prototype Rick Dom".

I'm not even sure what importance the design has. If the Dowas and the Rick Dom II bridge the gap between OYW Doms and Rick Dias what's the purpose of the Funf?

IMO we should give credits to these design as much as the "official" ones. After all they aren't fan art or such. The Dowas appeared in the Rick Dias model kit booklet and it's desert variant in a design series. I think they should be considered as legit as some MSV.

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Re: Dom Evolution?

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Sat Aug 08, 2015 2:35 am

The problem is that while there might be little info on the MS-09F Dom Funf, the MS-09F/trop is a well known and accepted official MS. More importantly, it seems that the upcoming Mayfly of Space 2 picture drama will finally show the MS-09F in action, further cementing its position as the official MS-09F:

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=16639
http://i.imgur.com/IKSIPDM.jpg

Also, the idea of a prototype Rick Dom doesn't make much sense: the Rick Dom is literally a Dom that replaces the hoverjets with thrusters and space use gear. The closest thing to a prototype Rick Dom is the MS-06RD-4, literally a Zaku II with Rick Dom legs.

I should also point out that the Mahq profile of the RX-098 makes no mention at all of the Dowas. I think that much like the MSM-03C and MS-09R2, they were designed as retcon to make it look as a sort of missing link between the units from the First Gundam and those from ZZ (Gogg -> Hygogg -> Capule, Rick Dom -> Rick Dom II -> Dreissen & Zaku II -> Zaku Kai -> Hizack). I should also point out that these do not make much sense:

-The Dreissen is said to have been originally designed as a limited production ground combat unit (though also capable of operating in space), thus it makes little sense for it to be based on a space unit.

-The Hygogg was originally meant to be an entirely different MS the MSM-05/B Gock. Furthermore, MSV-R recently brought on board the MSM-06, which clearly seems to be a descendant of the Gogg.

-We are now led to believe that the MS-06 variant in which they based the Hizack is the MS-06F2, which they also used for training new recruits.

My point is that some of these retcons seem quite forced and don't always fit, and I think this is also the case of the Dowas.

Furthermore, there are many issues with the units from Fukuchi Mobile Suit Station:

-RX-80: despite being a videogame only unit so far, the RX-80PR Pale Rider is included in the latest MS Illustrated Gundam Encyclopedia, which gives more weight to its existance over the RX-80 from Fukuchi Station.

-MS-17B: Mark has pointed out that based on the background info of the RMS-117 and the existance of the AMX-117L and AMX-117R, the MS-17B is visually identical to the AMX-117.

-MAM-07: According to one of Mark's threads on produciton numbers, only 3 Grabros were produced. MSV-R introduced a Grabro variant, the MAM-07-X3, but its background information confirms that it's one of the 3 existing Grabros, which was modified for testing newtype equipment for a couple of weeks, and later restored to its original form.

-MS-06R-2S: MSV-R also introduced the MS-09R Dozle Zabi custom, providing an official repalcement for his customized MS-06S, therefore makign the existance of the MS-06R-2S unnecessary. Background info of the MS-06R-2 also confirms that only 4 units were made and further identifies who got each unit.

-MSM-03 and MSM-04G: the Gogg Kai and Juagg Kai share the model number with their base unit. The Gogg Kai in particular seems like a further attempt to force a relationship between the Gogg and the Hygogg, which as I already pointed out, was not meant to exist.

-RGM-79S: the background of the RGM-79SP indicates that it was developed with an already very tight deadline and that few units were deployed only during the final days of the OYW. That a variant of it was produced before the end of the war sounds very unlikely.

Given this situation I do have a hard time accepting Fukuchi Station units as canon designs since in many cases they are at odds with official information.

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Re: Dom Evolution?

Post by Massignifico » Sat Aug 08, 2015 6:29 am

Gelgoog Jager wrote:The problem is that while there might be little info on the MS-09F Dom Funf, the MS-09F/trop is a well known and accepted official MS. More importantly, it seems that the upcoming Mayfly of Space 2 picture drama will finally show the MS-09F in action, further cementing its position as the official MS-09F.
I know that but... it's like 24 years after the airing of the episode where it appears in the first time.
(And many sources talk about the Tropen describing it as a pure tropical type, without mentioning the Funf).

That's why I don't care much for "official" and "unofficial" designations: you never know when a particular machine is going to appear for a second in a new production and become a real boy XD

The model number coincidence happens in-universe even with other models, like with High Mobility Psycommu System Zaku II and Kikeroga, Zeong and Xamel, Act Zaku and the Gelgoog plan, High mobility test type and Efreet, so one could say that maybe they share the F designation or the development of one model gets discontinued so the other take the F spot.
Also, the idea of a prototype Rick Dom doesn't make much sense: the Rick Dom is literally a Dom that replaces the hoverjets with thrusters and space use gear. The closest thing to a prototype Rick Dom is the MS-06RD-4, literally a Zaku II with Rick Dom legs.
But doesn't the standard High Mobility Type (some piloted by the Black Tri-Stars who are famous as Dom pilots) have similar enough legs? There is really need for this franken suit? It doesn't even share other components like the Hi-Mo backpack.
The Dreissen is said to have been originally designed as a limited production ground combat unit (though also capable of operating in space), thus it makes little sense for it to be based on a space unit.
In the Z era the differences between ground and space types is less severe: the Zeta and Hyaku Shiki accidentally go down to the earth and they can operate just fine, without any type of adaption. All the new MSs seem capable of hovering like a Dom. So maybe the Dreissen take the standard design of the Dom (or Rick Dom II, who knows, I never saw an official source claim they are related at all, plus it operates both in space and in colonies) and improves it, without concern for the eventual environment. Quoting toysdreams:
The Dreissen made its debut around the same time when Mashymar occupied Shangri-la, during Rakan's occupation of the Arcadia Colony, where Rakan, in a prototype Dreissen, destroyed 4 of AEUG's Nemos.
All the MSs Mashymar tested in the first episodes are multi-environment, plus it doesn't specify if the Dreissen destroys the Nemos inside or outside the colony (I think the second makes more sense, most of the time the Aeug did intercept Titans forces outside colonies). So maybe they designed it for ground combat just because they were going to invade earth, I don't think that strange that they could base it on a space MS.
The Hygogg was originally meant to be an entirely different MS the MSM-05/B Gock. Furthermore, MSV-R recently brought on board the MSM-06, which clearly seems to be a descendant of the Gogg.
But the MSV-R it's just another design series, it isn't any more "official" if we are talking about animated units. I want to point out that even with a different model numer the name is mostly the same, so a relation with the Gogg was always present.
We are now led to believe that the MS-06 variant in which they based the Hizack is the MS-06F2, which they also used for training new recruits.
But is this explicitly said somewhere? It seems strange that the F2 should be the ancestor when other two animated models (FZ and MS-11) have much more in common. And afaik the F2 in Torrington are the only ones we know are used as trainer units, elsewhere they could be using Cannon or Marine types (which the federation seems to prefer, going as far to convert some Cannons for space use and use them for defend Kilimanjaro while Marine type is further developed in other 2 models). There are definitely other Zaku models that got captured and used for various roles, so to boil down the question to just 1 unit seems lazy.
RX-80: despite being a videogame only unit so far, the RX-80PR Pale Rider is included in the latest MS Illustrated Gundam Encyclopedia, which gives more weight to its existance over the RX-80 from Fukuchi Station.
But why? It's just a book, not an animated source. It shouldn't have more weight than any other non-animated source. If the MS Encyclopedia inclusion is a way to officialize MS then both Okawara and Katoki versions of RX-78-5 are official?
MS-17B: Mark has pointed out that based on the background info of the RMS-117 and the existance of the AMX-117L and AMX-117R, the MS-17B is visually identical to the AMX-117.
But from what we can see it's basically the same model, just drawn in Fukuchi style.
MAM-07: According to one of Mark's threads on produciton numbers, only 3 Grabros were produced. MSV-R introduced a Grabro variant, the MAM-07-X3, but its background information confirms that it's one of the 3 existing Grabros, which was modified for testing newtype equipment for a couple of weeks, and later restored to its original form.
Maybe only the Gabro of the standard type. The Unit 4 designation seem to reinforce the fact that is a really different model, setting apart from the first three.
MS-06R-2S: MSV-R also introduced the MS-09R Dozle Zabi custom, providing an official repalcement for his customized MS-06S, therefore makign the existance of the MS-06R-2S unnecessary. Background info of the MS-06R-2 also confirms that only 4 units were made and further identifies who got each unit.
As already said I don't know why MSV-R should override Fukuchi MS Station. Yes they got an official MS for Dozle to use in late war (ages after they designed just a Zaku for him) but the R-2S it's said to be an experimental machine, we see in the image that it's not even complete. And we could point out other aces that gets assigned more than one MS in the same period: Johnny Ridden which got both an MS-14B and a C type (not a backpack switch, an entirely different unit) and Shin Matsunaga that no one seems to agree what he got assigned in late war (yes I know that he was in Side 3, but even to defend homeland he should have some MS), Gelgoog B or Jaeger type? Customized Kampfer? Customized Rick Dom? All of them?

Maybe there exists only 4 units of the standard R-2 type. R-2S has a different designation as does the R-2P which leads to the MS-11 (and maybe the R-3S).
RGM-79S: the background of the RGM-79SP indicates that it was developed with an already very tight deadline and that few units were deployed only during the final days of the OYW. That a variant of it was produced before the end of the war sounds very unlikely.
Well... the Gelgoog has a similiar background but there are a lot of Animated and so Official variants of it! :D
The Gelgoog is a late type which in MSV has only some backpack swap as variant. Then comes ZZ that was to have a Desert version of it but got excluded (reappears in Unicorn). Then comes 0080 with the J type, an even higher performance variant meant to close the gap with the Galbaldy Beta. Then comes 0083 that introduces a the F type meant to close the gap between the standard MS-14 and the J type... (they even squeezed a commander version between the standard F type and the J...)
Given this situation I do have a hard time accepting Fukuchi Station units as canon designs since in many cases they are at odds with official information.
But anyone could have a hard time accepting a lot of summarily described designs that roams the official works, this doesn't justify the neglect of other design like the Dowas.

I want to point out that even if the MSV-R line is more recent it doesn't give a damn about all the animated productions that happened after MSV (the exceptions are the Shimoda quad Missile Launchers and the RX-77-3D's shield taken from the RX-79[G], Norris having a customized Zaku I and maybe some other). It doesn't even point out obvious relation to later designs like the YMS-09J likely being the Dowadge ancestor and the MS-14GD sharing the same flat legs as the later D type, maybe they are the same unit?

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Re: Dom Evolution?

Post by JEFFPIATT » Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:29 pm

The rick dom seems to owe some of its data to the Zaku II High Mobility Test Type series where zeonic was using zimmed thrusters to give the zaku line an speed boost peaking at the MS-06R-2 and the MS-06R-3S Zimmad may have created the RD-04 zaku to camouflage the project as an zaku upgrade only to use it to sell an spaxe use dom as the new space unit getting the stopgap contract inly to be out done once the gelgoog was done.

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Re: Dom Evolution?

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Mon Aug 10, 2015 3:16 am

@Massignifico:

Model Number Coincidence: all the examples you mentioned involve units were either reclassified or didn't made it past the prototype stage:

-The Bishop project was given its own clasification as the MSN series, freeing the MS-16 designation for the Xamel.
-The Gelgoog was reclassified as MS-14 after Zeon first learned of the Gundam, freeing the MS-11 model number. Same happened to the YMS-15 Gyan which previously was the MS-10X, a model number later taken by the Pezun Dwadge.
-The YMS-08A was not approved for mass production, but its data was incorporated into the Gouf. Therefore the MS-08 model number was free to be sued by other MS.
-The Kikeroga is a MS that was goign to be used by Char in the operation to drop Luna II on Earth as per the original script of the first TV series. When the script changed, many of the units that were goign to appear were discarded and the Kikeroga was among them. As far as we know it's not a canon design.

Therefore it doesn't make sense that a completed MS already set into production would give its model number to another unit.

MS-06RD-4: I think it's safe to assume that this unit is unrelated to the MS-06R series, much how the MS-06MP would is unrelated to the amphibious MS-06M series. RD probably refers to the Rick Dom, with the "-4" probably indicating that it's the fourth version of such test machine, much like the MS-07H-4.

Dreissen: The Dreissen was supposed to be used mainly at Earth even if it can operate on space as well. The same is supposed to be true about the Zssa and Gallus J, the former being said to be sued for atmospheric bombardments and the later being said to work in tandem with the Zssa and focused on urban warfare. Also, if we take into account Turn A Gundam, even the Capule is capable of operating in space despite clearly being meant to be used underwater. This would imply that the Capule has both rocket thrusters and hydrojets, the later which would be useless in space. Perhaps the Dreissen has hoverjets which similarly are dead weight while in space?

Hygogg: you missed the point entirely, not only the unit had a different model number (MSM-05/B) but it also had a different name (Mark says it was originally named Gock or somethign like that). It was renamed Hygogg to try to force a relationship with the Gogg. This would be basically no different that if someone had decided change the name of the Zudah to "Light Armor Zaku" and given it a MS-06LA model number to try to indicate a relationship with the Zaku II. The opposite case would be the units like the MS-10, MS-13 and MSM-06, which despite their different names and modle numebrs are based on the MS-09, MSM-07 and MSM-03 respectively, something which can easily be observed on their overall design.

MS-06F2: I will have to dig some older threads for more info on these, but IIRC basically manuals from model kits suggested that EF captured a large bunch of these and used them quite extensively (probably more than other Zeon MS).

RX-80: The G04 and G05 Gundam seem to be simply updated or modern versions of Okawara's designs, probably more in line on how today we have more modern depictions of the MS-06F and MS-06S, with more verniers and/or more noticeable differences between the two designs.

MS-17B: the unit drawn by Fukuchi seems far more similar to a MS-17A than a MS-17B, which in turn must be almost identical to the RMS-117 given that the AMX-117L/R units based on the MS-17B are almost identical to the RMS-117.

MAM-07: If it's called Unit 4 it simply means that it was supposed to be a 4th unit of the MAM-07. Furthermore, MSV-R went to the extreme of indicating that an existing unit was overhauled and then restored, rather than simply taking the route of adding a new unit given its different model numebr and the fact that included such unique piece of equipment, the psycommu system, which was basically enough to reclassify a Zakrello into the MAN-00X-2 Brawrello.

MS-06R-2S: first of all, the Chimera Corps had 33 pilots for 24 MS, therefore no one, not even Johhny Ridden, had a personal MS for their exclusive use. All units had pilot rotation to keep them operational aroudn the clock. As for Shin Matsunaga, as you say there's no consensus on what became of him or what units he piloted by the end of the war. Therefore thinking that either he didn't fought at the end of the war or that he kept on piloting his MS-06R-1 (some sources indicate that it was upgraded into a MS-06R-1A at some point) is equally valid, and therefore meangless for this discussion.

As for the MS-06R-2P, its background info confirms that it is one of the 4 MS-06R-2 units which was kept around for testing purposes, so it's not a fifth MS-06R-2.

RGM-79S: I'm afraid you couldn't be more mistaken on you analogy: the YMS-14 was first rolled out in October, which means that during the next two months Zeon ahd enough time to develop variants of it, even though the MS-14A had yet to be rolled out.

YMS-09J/MS-09G: I'm not sure if the YMS-09J is related to the MS-09G (the lone trait they share as some openings on top of the back of their skirts, whcih are not even an identical match), but its heat lancer is obviously a nod at the Dreissen's beam lancer.

MS-14GD/MS-14D: I'm not convinced these are related as suggested. There's obviously some signifcant differences, such as the head, backapack, a waist power cable. Personally I think that while the MS-14GD were produced at California Base, the MS-14D were probably built in space. I have also pointed out that the color scheme of the MS-14D is very similar to the MS-09G, possibly hinting a similar relationship as in the case of the MS-14Jg and MS-17B.

@JEFFPIATT: we are literally told that Zeonic's MS-06R-2 competed against the idea of Zimmad's MS-09R (as per Mark's timeline). Above I already mentioned why the MS-06RD-4 model number is probably unrelated to the MS-06R series. Besides, the legs of the MS-06RD-4 don't resemble those of the MS-06R series at all, unlike the MS-14BR which clearly uses the same thruster arrangement.

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Re: Dom Evolution?

Post by Massignifico » Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:10 pm

I will not go off-topic further, no one of us is right, it just a matter of different opinions, I'm just reporting that the "Dom Funf" in the new picture drama is called Rick Dom II Custom (Delaz Machine) as for latest magazine scans. Maybe they are retconning the Funf and so the Tropen are just modified IIs (a model which Delaz has plenty).

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Re: Dom Evolution?

Post by toysdream » Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:30 pm

Yes, I noticed that particular retcon too! I guess I have to support anything that would reduce the ever-proliferating variety of Doms, and it would be kind of an interesting artistic exercise to try to merge the Rick Dom II and the Tropen into a single type...

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Re: Dom Evolution?

Post by Wingnut » Wed Aug 26, 2015 12:55 am

Thing is that just like making a sunny side up egg and an over easy egg the same, you have to scramble them both. Same goes for making one type of Dom out of the Rick Dom II and the Tropen. Somebody go and tell this guy trying to pull that off that it goes against all animation in the worst way.
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Re: Dom Evolution?

Post by bilbros » Wed Aug 26, 2015 1:45 pm

Yes, I noticed that particular retcon too!
I'm not sure this can be considered a true retcon of "Mayfly of Space 2", since it's known that some previous sources (e.g. the 0083 novelization, the book The Gundam Chronicles and the card/videogame Gundam Card Builder 0083) already identified it as Delaz's personal Rick Dom or Delaz's Prototype Rick Dom.

At any rate, I was wondering on the reason why the MS-09F is called Dom Fünf (i.e. Dom 5), and I came up with a possible answer: because when it was introduced - i.e. on Entertainment Bible 46, page 138 - it was simply the fifth MS to bear the name "Dom" (the others being Dom, Rick Dom, Rick Dom II, Dom Tropen)....

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Re: Dom Evolution?

Post by toysdream » Wed Aug 26, 2015 1:49 pm

Yep, that was supposed to be "Funf" as in "five". The novelty with this new version, surely, is the identification of Delaz's machine as a customized Rick Dom II - I'm pretty sure I never heard that before!

If we take this to its logical conclusion - hah! - then the Dom Tropen must be based on the Rick Dom II as well, and the so-called "Dom Funf" is synonymous with the Rick Dom II. That would be interesting, but I don't know if they'll really go that far with it.

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Re: Dom Evolution?

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:18 pm

I thought the Dom Funf's name referred to the assumption of it having five configurations:

-Ground Use
-Space Use
-Tropical/Desert Use (MS-09F/trop)
-Gross Beil (MS-09F/Gb)
-Bein Nichts (MS-09F/Bn)

Out of these I believe only the space and tropical variants are official. Still, that doesn't discard the possibility that the Dom Funf was designed with the foresight to later add more variants. That being said, there at least a nod at the MS-09F/Gb in the form of a Rick Dom II from Gundam Side Stories which is equipped with its large heat sword.

More recently a manga came up with a new variant:

-Dom Barrage (MS-09F/Br)

In the end, the little info we had on the Dom Funf suggested that it was built with modularity in mind, specially for converting a space unit into a ground unit (and vice versa) in a shorter time and with less work than it would involve for a MS-09B/MS-09R. I think it makes little sense that such unit would be based on what is supposed to be a 100% space unit (although the green colony use variant and a few units seen in Gihren's Greed intend to indicate otherwise).

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Re: Dom Evolution?

Post by toysdream » Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:53 pm

As I recall, the original explanation was that it was the fifth type. A bit more info from the HG-UC Dom Tropen kit manual:
The design base for the Dom Tropen was the MS-09F Dom Funf, a machine that was independently developed by Zimmad following the announcement of the United Maintenance Plan at the end of the One Year War, with the goal of improving the specs of the Dom itself. Each component was thoroughly standardized and modularized, to make it capable of greater adaptive diversity than Zeonic's Zaku. Thus variations could be produced in response to demands from the front lines, and it appears that most of the units actually produced were of the so-called tropical type.

It's said that, at the end of the One Year War, a few units of the space combat version of the Dom Funf were also deployed to certain fleets. It is unclear how many were actually produced, or where they were deployed, but it is confirmed that one was aboard the Gwaden. (Incidentally, "Funf" means "five" in German.)
As you note, the Rick Dom II does have a colony variant, which suggests it might work on ground as well. And since the 08th MS Team version, which has a Rick Dom II-ish aesthetic, was identified as the Dom Funf in Zeonic Front, perhaps we should reconsider the possibility that these are all somehow the same basic machine...

-- Mark

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Re: Dom Evolution?

Post by JEFFPIATT » Wed Aug 26, 2015 4:17 pm

The Funf seems to have been aimed as an universal base model dom giving the MS-09 Chassis the ability to be extensively refit like the Zaku II. The Rick Dom II was more of an Mid Production retool of the Rick dom to bring it up to UMP Spec Wile the F type was aimed at building one frame and allowing parts to be easy swapped out to switch between environmental configurations. The tropen is just F-type doms fitted with equipment based on the Tropical test type dom's loadout. the one we see in space is the base unit fitted with space equipment. the rapid iterations is more due to zeons late war dev team infighting where any officer with any clout could get an project started leading to the separate factory sites doing there own next gen models.

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Re: Dom Evolution?

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Thu Aug 27, 2015 12:56 am

I'm a bit concerned with the timing of the deployment of all these Dom variants, specially the ground units such as the Dom Tropen, the Doms from 08th MS team and the MS-09G Dwadge.

First of all, as per Mark's assumption about the fall of California Base taking place as early as December 5th, along the claims from the background of units such as the MS-05L and MS-14GD which indicate that the supply lines between the Zeon homeland and California Base were already being disrupted, I find it hard to imagine that most of these units (if any at all) were developed at California Base. In fact I'm inclined to agree with the assumption that California Base only produced YMS-09/MS-09A units and its variants (MS-09D and MS-09K), skipping entirely the production and/or development of MS-09B based units.

The issue here is that this leave us a lot of MS that seem to serve a similar purpose, despite the fact that it is taken for granted that Zeon abandoned its remaining ground-based forces once they began retreating from Earth.

Anyway, if I were to take some guesses:

-Doms from 08th MS team:

I want to point out that the same source shows three partially disassembled Rick Doms, which as far as we can tell seem to share the same exterior as these Doms. As it has been pointed out on other threads, besides having proportions more similar to a Rick Dom II, these units seem to have standard sized manipulators hands, therefore no longer requiring a specialized grip for the MMP-78 as in the case of the original version.

So, what about this: what if these are actually supposed to be Rick Doms converted into Doms? Rick Doms were produced after the Doms at Granada, so maybe those included standard manipulators from the beginning.

Perhaps Ghineas was given 5 (or more) Rick Doms for defending the Kerguelen in space, but instead he dissected 3 for their generators and converted the rest into Doms for protecting his beloved Apsaras on Earth. Perhaps this and the green unit from Zeonic Front are basically Rick Doms that were converted into ground units, that way we could also rationalize the color scheme of sophie Fran's unit as simply being the color for Rick Doms (either I or II) operating on the ground/colonies.

-The Dom Funf/Dom Tropen:

@JEFFPIATT The Dom Tropen isn't just an F-type Dom fitted with equipment based on the YMS-09D's gear. In fact the only visible additional piece of equipment the MS-09F/trop has which the MS-09F doesn't are the feetsand filter (well, and the hovercraft system on the sole which would be useless in space), and in turn, the only MS I can think of that has something similar is the YMS-16M, another unit with very vague background.

Perhaps the simplest assumption could be that whoever had access to the Xamel used its data for producing the tropical equipment for the Dom Funf and then proceeded to modify a bunch of these into that configuration. If we go by official sources, we only have about 7 confirmed MS-09F/trop units anyway.

-Dwadge: The fact that it's based on the MS-09B isntead of the MS-09A do would seem to indicate that it was developed in space. Also, I have pointed out that it's color scheme could hint a relationship with the MS-14D. Personally I suspect that perhaps these two MS do were late war reinforcements that the Zeon Homeland sent to the surviving troops that managed to escape to Africa, which could explain why these could be considered OYW MS even if there's not firm evidence of their participation in the conflict (since most Zeon remnants went into hiding).

In particular there's one issue that caught my attention in the case of the Dwadges: the generator output. In the past we have used generator outputs to mark some relationships, specially regarding the Zaku series, for example the MS-06FZ being converted from a MS-06FZ and the Oggo using the generator of MS-06J units. In the case of the Dwadge it has a 1,440Kw generator output. This is exactly the same generator output that of msot of the MS-14 series, namely the A, B, C, F, G and S-types, with the exceptions of the MS-14FS and MS-14JG, which both have an output of 1,490kw and are considered high end units. Given this trend I think that the MS-14D and MS-14GD probably also have a generator output of 1,440Kw. Two other units known to have the same output are the MS-11 and the MS-06D from ZZ.

Taking this into account, I think it's quite possible that by the end of the OYW Zeon might have produced some MS in space for its ground forces, which included the MS-06D (ZZ), the MS-09G and the MS-14D, and all of which were given the more powerful generator of the Gelgoog series which was available at that point.

Finally, if we check the generator output of the other members of the Dom family we have:

MS-09B - 1,269Kw
MS-09R - 1,199Kw
MS-09F (and variants) - 1,199Kw
MS-09R2 - 1,219Kw

Heading into the realm of speculation, an old data sheet gives the MS-09K the same generator output of the MS-09B, 1,269Kw:

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/gun ... 0103053633

This could potentially indicate that the MS-09A, MS-09D, MS-09K and MS-09K2, all have the same generator output.

On the other hand, I think it's quite likely that the MS-09RS and MS-10 might have a generator output of 1,440KW, since the former can suppsoedly oeprate a beam abzooka without relying on the in-built generator, while the other one is not only nowdays depcited using that same weapon, but also capable of firing proper beam shots from its chest beam diffusion cannon and was being developed on the same site as the MS-11.

Anyway, if we exclude the ground units, we are left with the MS-09R and MS-09F which have the same generator output, the MS-09R2 which has a slightly more powerful generator, and possibly the MS-09RS and MS-10, which should have the enough output to operate beam weapons.

In short, I suspect that the development order of the space bound Doms could have been:

MS-09F & MS-09R -> MS-09R2 -> MS-09RS & MS-10

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