Let's say that there is a real working 1:1 ms and balancing

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Den
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Let's say that there is a real working 1:1 ms and balancing

Post by Den » Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:55 am

I have been thinking about balancing issues of a real mobile suit with regards to being back heavy. I have built a few gunpla and some of those have horrible balancing and some can't even stand properly because of huge backpack weight. So i was thinking, if a small scale would have trouble standing up, what more would a 1:1 unit stand up? Specially those that have huge wings as backpacks. Would they need to increase the size of the feet for a 1:1 to actually balance itself?

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Gelgoog Jager
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Re: Let's say that there is a real working 1:1 ms and balanc

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:36 pm

In UC balancing issues do have pop up some times. The GM Cannon is a prime example of what you mention: it was given larger legs in order to deal with the recoil from its cannon backpack.

The case of the Zaku Cannon is more complicated given more recent evidence of it possibly having as many as 3 different backpacks: Gatling gun, ballistic cannon and beam cannon. According to Mark, the most common backpack may actually have been intended to be the beam cannon one, with the ballistic one being the one it shares with the MS-09K-1. It's depicted with it in PS3 games Gundam Crossfire and Battlefield Record 0081, but also on the 08th MS OVAs, where the unit using it seems to be fixed to the ground.

My guess is that this ballistic cannon backpack was the one that caused the balance issues for the Zaku Cannon as per the background info. We could speculate that California Base dealt with the issue giving the ballistic cannons to the heavier Dom Cannon and giving beam cannon backpacks to the slimmer Zaku Cannon.

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MythSearcher
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Re: Let's say that there is a real working 1:1 ms and balanc

Post by MythSearcher » Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:06 am

Den wrote:I have been thinking about balancing issues of a real mobile suit with regards to being back heavy. I have built a few gunpla and some of those have horrible balancing and some can't even stand properly because of huge backpack weight. So i was thinking, if a small scale would have trouble standing up, what more would a 1:1 unit stand up? Specially those that have huge wings as backpacks. Would they need to increase the size of the feet for a 1:1 to actually balance itself?
Not neccessarily.
For models, you have a mostly empty interior, and the thickness of the plastic parts dominates the weight of all the parts while being hard to make thin.(since it will be easy to break if too thin.)
For real life machines, the main weight is not distributed the same way, the main body can be and should be built with stronger material and usually heavier in density, at least around and likely heavier than 1; while the wings should be much more like real life aeroplanes, where it will be pretty much empty in the centre, with maybe thrusters built-in, likely to be also used for some storage of propellant, but the density can possibly by much less than 1.
Since the legs have to support a few dozen tons of mass and a few hundred thousands of Newtons of thrust, they have to be even stronger, it might be lighter in density(due to also being thrusters and thus have a lot of empty space inside), but the structure itself has to be much stronger than the wings and likely reinforced to support that. Of course you can say that the wings has to support the whole unit's weight if used for flying, but with that kind of thrust-to-mass ratio(VTOL possible), the wings do not need to carry all the mass.
Lastly, if using thermonuclear jets, you can keep thrusting in the back pack to balance anyway.

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Gelgoog Jager
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Re: Let's say that there is a real working 1:1 ms and balanc

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:15 pm

Regarding the use of thrusters in the back for balancing purposes, I want to point out that in recent years the MSV-R series and some PS3 games (Crossfire and 0081) have added backpack thrusters to the MS-06D and MS-06K respectively, two units known for lacking them, supposedly having relocated all their thrusters to their legs.

In the particular case of the MS-06K, I think backpack thrusters are a must at least for those units operating in space, as in the case of those on board the Hario in Zeta Gundam.

Furthermore, some video games depict that the fastest way for a downed MS to get back on its feet is to use its backpack thrusters (IIRC, the Kampfer from 0080 does the same when first activated).

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MythSearcher
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Re: Let's say that there is a real working 1:1 ms and balanc

Post by MythSearcher » Mon Aug 10, 2015 3:00 am

Gelgoog Jager wrote:Regarding the use of thrusters in the back for balancing purposes, I want to point out that in recent years the MSV-R series and some PS3 games (Crossfire and 0081) have added backpack thrusters to the MS-06D and MS-06K respectively, two units known for lacking them, supposedly having relocated all their thrusters to their legs.

In the particular case of the MS-06K, I think backpack thrusters are a must at least for those units operating in space, as in the case of those on board the Hario in Zeta Gundam.

Furthermore, some video games depict that the fastest way for a downed MS to get back on its feet is to use its backpack thrusters (IIRC, the Kampfer from 0080 does the same when first activated).
Thus again confirming the ultimate road building technology of the UC timeline.
The roads can take thrusts directly from thermonuclear rockets/jets which would be at least a few thousand to a few dozen thousand degrees Celsius.(and take a direct hit from the MA Shamblo) without any visible damage.

Man, they should really pave those material on MSs for armour.

Den
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Re: Let's say that there is a real working 1:1 ms and balanc

Post by Den » Mon Aug 10, 2015 4:18 am

hmm the backpack being made of a lighter material would explain a lot. another thing, i have read somewhere that mechs the size of Gundams would almost be impossible because of the amount of force exerted by the weight of the whole body on two feet would not only make them topple over but would also destroy the very surface they are standing on; the question i have now then is, up to how big could a bipedal mech be to be able to realistically stand and move about? i was thinking about the size of knightmare frames?

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MythSearcher
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Re: Let's say that there is a real working 1:1 ms and balanc

Post by MythSearcher » Mon Aug 10, 2015 5:17 am

Den wrote:hmm the backpack being made of a lighter material would explain a lot. another thing, i have read somewhere that mechs the size of Gundams would almost be impossible because of the amount of force exerted by the weight of the whole body on two feet would not only make them topple over but would also destroy the very surface they are standing on; the question i have now then is, up to how big could a bipedal mech be to be able to realistically stand and move about? i was thinking about the size of knightmare frames?

Nope, MSs are still possible.

Considering OYW MS weights, they are about 1000 times of humans, which means they have a density close to human beings.
If it is completely a scaled up human(i.e. with small feet), the area contacting the ground will be about 100 times of a human, meaning 10 times the pressure will be exerted on the ground for a human scaled up 10 times.

Quite obviously, a normal MS, even with Katoki slimlining the whole thing, has a feet scale of about 10 times of human, a single foot of an MS seems to have more contact area than the M1A2, which weight almost the same as RX-78-2.
The Okawara version foot is about 3X4m and the Katoki version is about 2X4m, so 8~12m^2 for each foot, and a 5~7.5t/m^2 pressure, which is 7.1~10.7 PSI or 50~75kPa.
A human male gives about 14kPa, and a bike gives about 90kPa
The M1A2 gives a 15.4PSI, still not enough to break the roads.

It seems like the building code around in HK requires 750kg/m^2 for floors above certain levels, and 1000kg(1t)/m^2 for lower level buildings. So you cannot park your MS in a building parking lot(legally, yeah, people must be driving their MS around town, at least I will if I have one), but at half of M1A2's ground pressure or at most 2/3 of it when standing on 1 foot, no, it will not damage the roads if it is properly designed.
When walking, if we assume MS with designs like the newer MG Ver. 2.0, about half of the foot will tip like the human toes, you still only have about the pressure of M1A2.

A technical data of concrete, which most roads are paved with that we really care if it gets damaged(the city government has to pay for them with tax payers' money), has a strength of about 14~130 MPa, if you believe Wikipedia's sources.
For really nice roads which are hand paved with cut stones, well, I guess you don't even want cars to go on them.

BTW, think of the Stiletto heel, if a woman with 60 kg weight can walk or even run on those and not damage the ground, a normally designed MS should have no problem in not making a scratch on the ground it is running on.

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Gelgoog Jager
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Re: Let's say that there is a real working 1:1 ms and balanc

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Tue Aug 11, 2015 12:48 am

This conversation makes me wonder if whoever designed the MSJ-06II Tieren (+120 MT), and specially the MSJ-04 Fanton (+130 MT) took this into consideration. The later in particular seems to have smaller feet while being heavier than a Tieren:

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/MSJ-04_Fanton
http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/MSJ-06II-A ... round_Type

The xvm-gz Defurse and xvm-rg Reganner seem to be in a similar situation, being heavy weight units similar to a Big Zam, but having long slim legs ending in small feet:

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Xvm-gz_Defurse
http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Ovm-lce_Reganner

On a different note, I was wondering if hypothetically a Big Zam with an operational Minovsky craft system could use such equipment to decrease the pressure it exerts in the ground while moving around, and perhaps also allow it to stand on the ground without breaking it while firing its main gun. Technically I suppose it would be something similar, but to a lesser extent, to what the Apasaras III does when extending and then anchoring its legs to the ground in order to improve accuracy.

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MythSearcher
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Re: Let's say that there is a real working 1:1 ms and balanc

Post by MythSearcher » Tue Aug 11, 2015 4:31 am

Gelgoog Jager wrote:This conversation makes me wonder if whoever designed the MSJ-06II Tieren (+120 MT), and specially the MSJ-04 Fanton (+130 MT) took this into consideration. The later in particular seems to have smaller feet while being heavier than a Tieren:

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/MSJ-04_Fanton
http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/MSJ-06II-A ... round_Type

The xvm-gz Defurse and xvm-rg Reganner seem to be in a similar situation, being heavy weight units similar to a Big Zam, but having long slim legs ending in small feet:

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Xvm-gz_Defurse
http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Ovm-lce_Reganner

On a different note, I was wondering if hypothetically a Big Zam with an operational Minovsky craft system could use such equipment to decrease the pressure it exerts in the ground while moving around, and perhaps also allow it to stand on the ground without breaking it while firing its main gun. Technically I suppose it would be something similar, but to a lesser extent, to what the Apasaras III does when extending and then anchoring its legs to the ground in order to improve accuracy.
If you are using M-Craft, you are basically sitting on a large invisible cushion, thus you get a really really humongous contact area with the ground, the pressure should be really low.

For the small feet heavy units, no, they didn't even seem to take into account that these are very likely to tip over.(and that is why real life vehicles try to have a CoG as low as possible.

Den
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Re: Let's say that there is a real working 1:1 ms and balanc

Post by Den » Tue Aug 11, 2015 8:30 pm

so the only problem with 1:1 would be the high center of gravity?

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MythSearcher
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Re: Let's say that there is a real working 1:1 ms and balanc

Post by MythSearcher » Tue Aug 11, 2015 10:18 pm

Den wrote:so the only problem with 1:1 would be the high center of gravity?
Basically yes, but just in terms of balancing. You have a lot more other problems at those heights for a fighting vehicle.

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SonicSP
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Re: Let's say that there is a real working 1:1 ms and balanc

Post by SonicSP » Fri Aug 21, 2015 9:32 am

MythSearcher wrote:
Den wrote:so the only problem with 1:1 would be the high center of gravity?
Basically yes, but just in terms of balancing. You have a lot more other problems at those heights for a fighting vehicle.
Realdo tanks it is then!

Den
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Re: Let's say that there is a real working 1:1 ms and balanc

Post by Den » Fri Aug 21, 2015 7:39 pm

was thinking more on the lines of guntank though ahaha, but i guess realdo tanks are the "current" guntank version for now haha

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Amion
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Re: Let's say that there is a real working 1:1 ms and balanc

Post by Amion » Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:11 am

And let us all remember that the Zaku was originally a space worker. The MS was a space vehcile at its core, despite somehow proving all physicists wrong in how it manages to perform in-atmosphere.

In real life, then, wouldn't the 1:1 be fighting in space? I daresay those legendary Russian moon bases would be in for a surprise. :wink:
They don't know the power of a balanced vision.

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MythSearcher
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Re: Let's say that there is a real working 1:1 ms and balanc

Post by MythSearcher » Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:22 am

Amion wrote:And let us all remember that the Zaku was originally a space worker. The MS was a space vehcile at its core, despite somehow proving all physicists wrong in how it manages to perform in-atmosphere.

In real life, then, wouldn't the 1:1 be fighting in space? I daresay those legendary Russian moon bases would be in for a surprise. :wink:
Technically yes.
If energy technology keeps on developing and propulsion technology goes much slower(which is pretty much what scientific laws make it looks like what's going to happen), it would be better for a space fighter to turn with shifting of mass than using thrusters.(bringing propellant is less efficient than bringing energy storage)
Current technology already have CMG, momentum wheels, reaction wheels, etc. AMBAC is feasible in space(and space only) in aiding turning of the machine and directing thrusters as well as directed weapons.
How much said machine is going to look humanoid is up to debate.
4 limbs is the least limbs needed to shift your machine out of your centre of mass in all 3 axis and more limbs means each is less useful and in the way.
I'd say a high-low mix with 2 limbed and 4 limbed machines will be more likely.
How much protection you put on the machine also makes it more or less like human, like more protection in the front gives you things like knees(most combat situations are you encountering enemies in front, thus most armour are designed to protect you from the front), but less frontal armour gives you more degree of freedom and your machine looks more like an X shape.

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Amion
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Re: Let's say that there is a real working 1:1 ms and balanc

Post by Amion » Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:09 am

Xchines it is, then.
They don't know the power of a balanced vision.

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Re: Let's say that there is a real working 1:1 ms and balanc

Post by MythSearcher » Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:38 pm

Amion wrote:Xchines it is, then.
or the 卍/卐 svástika, since the limbs needed to have at least 2 sections to cover enough angles.

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Amion
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Re: Let's say that there is a real working 1:1 ms and balanc

Post by Amion » Sun Aug 30, 2015 9:58 pm

And so, when people from the future come back and tell us that a supremacist country in the coming space age have adopted a Swastica and are actually flying manji mecha in their war to conquer earth, don't laugh so hard.

We of mechatalk shall be the only ones to have foreseen the inevitable. 8)
They don't know the power of a balanced vision.

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Re: Let's say that there is a real working 1:1 ms and balanc

Post by MythSearcher » Mon Aug 31, 2015 12:45 am

Amion wrote:And so, when people from the future come back and tell us that a supremacist country in the coming space age have adopted a Swastica and are actually flying manji mecha in their war to conquer earth, don't laugh so hard.

We of mechatalk shall be the only ones to have foreseen the inevitable. 8)
All I can imagine is MSs posing in manji poses with their hands and legs. Man, that is way too hard to hold my laughter.

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Amion
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Re: Let's say that there is a real working 1:1 ms and balanc

Post by Amion » Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:29 am

And so, Mythsearcher, when your friends laugh at those Super Robot Shows and the "absurd" posing those mecha perform, divert them to this thread so they might learn the surreal truth about our military's future, where space mecha squadrons will pose in-unison as swastika on a regular basis.
They don't know the power of a balanced vision.

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