Xeku Eins and the Titans suits

[nacho-wan]

I was wondering if there any relationship between the Xeku Eins of New Desides and the Titan's Marasai and HiZack. The three of them are better than average Feddie suits, they are far too rounded to be descendant of the GM and they all have zeonistic mono eyes - far too suspicious. Maybe they are all made based on the data that the Federation collected at Penzun at the end of OYW?

[Gelgoog Jager]

Supposedly Gundam Sentinel claims that they are based on leftover Zeon development data from the Pezun asteroid, where New Desides is based. Let's remember that near the end of the war, many MS being developed at A Baoa Qu were relocated to the Pezun Asteroid (at the time located next to the Zeon homeland at Side 3), where MS research seems to have continued long past the end of the war:

-We know that at least five MS (from the MS-X series) were developed at Pezun: MS-10 Dwadge, MS-11 Act Zaku, MS-12 Gigan, MS-13 Gasshia and MS-17 Galbaldy Alpha. The Zeon version of the Galbaldy Beta (MS-17B) was also developed there. The profiles of the MS Support Skuere and Skute also are included in MS-X, so perhaps those can be attritbuted to Pezun as well.

-Supposedly by the end of the war only Dwadge, Act Zaku and Gasshia have been completed (although the manga about the plot to assassinate Gihren shows once unit at Side 3, and some video games about the Side Story: Space Beyond the Flash those show some Galbaldy Alphas among the Zeon forces). Supposedly, research on the other MS continued after that leading to the completition of the Gigan, the Galbaldy Beta and the Galabldy Alpha, if we ignore mangas and videogames. I could imagine the Xeku series being another of the on-going projects.

-More recently Mark pointed out that the timing of the deployment of the FA-78-2 Heavy Gundam, which participated on the capture of Pezun, could indicate that the asteroid wasn't captured until late U.C. 0081. Essentially this would mean that the Zeon remnants could have continue their MS research for as long as a year and a half after the end of the OYW.

-About the fate of the Pezun MS, we know that the EF managed to capture some Act Zakus which were transferred to Augusta Base for research purposes, and we have official confirmation of an operational Gigan on U.C. 0096.

-The Galbaldy Beta, was reclassified as the RMS-117 and adopted by the EF. It should be noted that the AMX-117L Gazu L and AMX-117R Gazu R confirm that the MS-17B most be basically identical to the EF's version. Mark has also suggested that the color scheme of the MS-14Jg was meant to draw a relationship between with the RMS-117, essentially to show that both MS were late improved models over the standard versions (the MS-14A and MS-17 respectively). Therefore it's likely that the EF didn't even bother changing it's color scheme.

-On a related note, background info indcates that the RMS-192M is just an updated MSM-06M-1, with the Zaku Marine Type (later reclassified as MSM-01) we know being the MS-06M-2. AFAIK, there's no indication of the Zaku Mariner engaging EF forces during the OYW (the MSM-01 itself is largely said to have been mainly used for research purposes, although it's known to have participated in combat). Supposedly the Galbaldy Beta was given an EF model number because it was never deployed against EF forces, so I suppose the same could be true about the RMS-192M. Anyway, these two examples could further point that the Xeku series MS could be in a similar situation, where the Zeon version (completed or not) was never used against EF forces, and therefore was given an EF model number.

Moving on, the Hizack can be described as an EF MS with the skin of a Zaku (the Nemo being the opposite: a Zeon MS with the skin of a GM). Not much to add.

The Marasai (originally the MSA-002) was the first proposal of Anaheim Electronics for the mainstay MS of the AEUG, but the dislike of former EF pilots for a MS that strongly resembled a Zaku led them to develop the Nemo to replace it. Let's remember that many Anaheim Electronic employees were former engineers from the defunct Zeonic company, which is why we could consider that the Marasai essentially a Hizack built with Zeon technology.

Ultimately the big question is: exactly how far was the Xeku series development by the Zeon forces at Pezun before the EF captured the base and the data on them?

-Assuming the designs were complete or almost completed, we could assume that the Xeku series would have more in common with the Marasai which is made with Zeon technology.

-The opposite could be true though: if only the basic design was completed and the EF used their own technology to finish the Xeku series, then these could largely be EF units with the exterior of Zeon MS, much like the Hizack.

[Zeonista]

Pezun was dedicated to researching a post-war generation of MS for Zeon. In 12/79 the Gelgoog B and Gelgoog Cannon, Galbaldy, Act Zaku, and Kampfer had all pushed the performance envelope. The task before Pezun was to make something better than them as a general issue multi-role MS. So the 0085 tech benchmark was being planned for already. The Federation (and later Titans) benefited a great deal from the captured R&D and scientists much like NASA. The Xeku Eins was already in existence then as a development project when the EFSF took possession of Pezun. All the Titans had to do was budget the development costs and insert the 0085-era tech like the linear cockpit and compact reactor.

So the Xeku Eins had little to do with the Hizack and Marasai MS, which were next-generation Titan and AE design riffs respectively of the already existing Act Zaku, itself not a ground-up next-gen MS but the logical improved MP MS from OYW data. Now, the degree to which the former Zeonic designers and engineers at AE knew about what was going on at Pezun, and how much they worked to make a competitive design in the Marasai from a different source, that's a good question.

[Gelgoog Jager]

Actually, most of the MS developed at Pezun were localized use MS, namely MS that could be used on colonies and asteroids, most likely in preparation of a pptential EF assault on the the Zeon Homeland. This is particularly evident in the case of the Gigan and the Gasshia, though it probably extends to the Dwadge as well. Incidentally the Act Zaku and Galbaldy series which seem more fit for general purpose combat are the ones that the EF did bother to capture and keep around their own forces.

On the other hand, I doubt that the Xeku series was developed to further surpass the the performance of existing MS, with the top tier units most likely being the the MS-14Jg, the MS-17B and the MS-18E. In the case of the MS-17B, Mark once pointed out that it seemed that its performance was so high that it was unsuitable for most pilots, and that one of the known changes the EF did made to the RMS-117 was replacing the cockpit with one that put less stress on the pilot. Given this situation I doubt that the Zeon engineers at Pezun would have decided to produce another unit whose main problem would be that basically no one could have pilot it.

To think that the Xeku Eins had modularity in mind as its main trait, even at the cost of higher performance, which does sound like more reasonable course of action after having hit a performance deadens with the technology they had available. Furthermore, the Xeku Eins ended up with many weapons that seem to be based on Zaku weaponry, such as the the 120mm machine gun (which resembles at the front a MMP-80), the 3-tube missile launchers (similar to a Zaku II leg missile launchers) and even Panzer Fausts, not to mention the use of optional shoulder shields that resembled that of a Zaku II. By the same logic, the clay bazooka, beam rifle and beam smart gun seem to be EF weapons.

It's also unlikely that the development of the Hizack was influenced at all by the Xeku series, given that information on the Pezun units wasn't disclosed until U.C. 0085, which was around the time the Hizack's development was completed. By extent, the Marasai which is developed by AE as a Hizack built with Zeon technology probably wasn't influenced either, specially considering that AE might not even had access to the data of the Xeku series to begin with.

[toysdream]

Specifically, the claim that's been made about the Galbaldy (originally in the Gundam The Movies film comics, later repeated in Gundam Officials) is that its full performance couldn't safely be expressed until it was refitted with a shock-absorbing linear seat.

As for the rest of the Pezun series, I think there's really not enough info to say what they were for. There's not even any consensus on the Japan side about whether the Pezun Dwadge was a land or space type, which seems like a pretty fundamental piece of data.

-- Mark

[nacho-wan]

Thank you guys for the bunch of ideas expressed. It seems very unlike that there is a linkage between the xeku and other feddies suits. Certainly it is a basic model, and as per its profile it is powerful not by the use of new tech but by the refining of existing know-how.

Now, how does the xeku eins stacks against the suits made by larger labs like anaheim's Nero and the efsf hizack?

[FinalSin66]

I think in part of the modular design of Xeku it faired alrite to other ms. In gundam Sentinel they did go up against nouvel GM IIIs and other new U.C.0088 machines, but still a great deal of that could be contributed to the high skill level of new desides pilots.

And in Sentinel the Hizacks were operational by the time the data mining on Penzun was finished by the federation, i think i remember they had started the xeku (X-Series) production on penzun same time and also sent the data to anaheim (prob using it some for marasai)

And as for the Galbaldy alpha i had alwas thought that it was exceptional good ms that the feds adaopted it and gave it a cosmetic job and slight design upgrade to fit EF production lines becoming the Beta

[Gelgoog Jager]

First, about the Pezun Dwadge: I recalled a paragraph Mark posted a while ago on another thread:

Because most of the mobile suits codenamed MS-X were local warfare versions, their production was not continued. Thanks to their superior performance, however, the MS-11 Act Zaku and MS-17B Galbaldy Beta were placed into mass production. (The Galbaldy Beta was later given the Federation model number RMS-117.)

While the MS-12 Gigan and MS-13 Gasshia do have been hinted to be for use on asteroids or colonies (Gasshia is said to have something called an anti-ground sensor), the MS-11 and MS-17 series seem to be general use units rather than meant for local warfare. So, how about we simply assume that the EF ditched the local warfare units and only picked the general use units (the MS-17A would be ditched simply due to the MS-17B being an improved version of it). If we worked under that assumption we could consider the MS-10 Dwadge to have also been a local warfare unit. We might know another Dom-type unit with such role: the MS-09R2, namely the green colored unit said to be painted in a "colony attack" color scheme. Said unit is deployed along a bunch of MS-06FZ, another model which recently has come under the strong suspicion of being meant to fight in asteroids and colonies due to its high performance, but lacking propellant capacity to match up.

Back to the Xeku Eins: actually upon further inspection you can observe how the Xeku shares a similar arm type to the one of the Hizack. It's hard to say which way the connection goes though: I've realized I forgot to consider that the beam rifle of the Hizack could simply have been taken from the Act Zaku, not to mention that the Galbaldy Beta uses a Zeon model beam rifle instead of an EF one, so I guess the tech from Pezun do was used before the information disclosure on U.C. 0085.

Another machine that shares traits with the Xeku Eins is the Zaku III: the shoulder shield (both even carry beam sabers inside it), they both have unusally big legs, they both seem to have been designed to be highly modular (specially if we consider all those linearts from the Gundam wiki article on the Zaku III), and oddly enough, the Xeku Eins even seems to have a skirt section that particularly resembles that seen on the Zaku III from the final Unicorn OVA, which had hidden sub-arms. They even have similar generator outputs: RMS-141 -> 2,100 kW / AMX-011 -> 2,150 kW.

Based on this I'm now inclined to think that not only the development of the Xeku Eins might have progressed quite far even before the EF captured Pezun, but that much like the Gazu-L and Gazu-R, the data on it was sent to Axis and was used to develop the AMX-011 Zaku III.

Perhaps already crossing the line of speculation, but could the Xeku Eins be the missing MS-20? Let's assume for a moment that the Dolmel is indeed the MS-19 and try to figure out:

My reasonign takes me to the Dra-C and its model number, MS-21C. But why not MS-21 or MS-21A? What if the MS-21C hints that the Dra-C design we are most familair with is not the original version of this machine? The Rick Gigan from the UC OVAs might provide a clue:

If we remove the head cannon, the Rick Gigan is essentially a Dra-C minus the melee weapon, with the added bonus of being easier to produce as long as you have access to Gattle and Zaku components. More importantly, the Rick Gigan from the OVAs even shares the same gatling gun with the Dra-C from Unicorn.

What about this: what if the Dra-C with a gatling gun arm is the original version of the Dra-C, and the version from 0083 is a version that is using a subpar replacement due to the same supply constraints that are said to affect the Zeon remnants? Perhaps Pezun wanted to provide the Rick Gigan to the Delaz Fleet, but in order to reduce costs and speed up production they came up with the Dra-C as a more viable alternative. However, after the fall of Pezun the Delaz fleet is unable to mantain the gatling guns nor produce more for new Dra-Cs, thus opts for a simpler replacement (after all, even beam sabers could technically be easily obtainable from fallen GMs units).

As an extra detail, the HGUC kit of the standard Dra-C allows you to replace the vulcan arm with a regular MS manipulator, which can be used to have the figure hold a handheld version of the galting gun.

What could this mean for the model numbers? Maybe they could be something like this:

-MS-21A - Dra-C (Dra-A?) with two normal manipulators.
-MS-21B - Dra-C (Dra-B?) with gatling gun right arm.
-MS-21C - Delaz Fleet version with more affordable vulcan arm.

Ultimately, my point would be: if the Dra-C was developed at Pezun as an alternative to the Rick Gigan, then could we assume that such model number was given to it because the research at Pezun had already given the MS-20 model number to another project, which could be the Xeku series.

[JEFFPIATT]

near the end of the one year war the earth federation seems to to have run something like the real life operation paper clip from WW II. the EFSF basically tried to secure the as much of zeon's mobile suit development personnel before they could be recruited by the retreating Axis fleet. An major part was securing zeon's R&D bases. the techs that the Fed did not capture or did not leave for Axis got absorbed in to AE when Zeonic was acquired. The RMS-106 Hi-zack was an result of the federation needing an cheap modern ms to fill rank and hiring AE to build it what they got was an Zaku style ms built to GM standards internal as former zeon staff designed it. The federation seemed to have done limited runs of the MS-11 for data collection and to fill ranks while the MS-14 was refined at luna II granted the RMS factory code 11 as there factory's 7th ms produced the RMS-117 witch seemed to be an competing unit to the hizack built at plant 10 Granada.

[Gelgoog Jager]

near the end of the one year war the earth federation seems to to have run something like the real life operation paper clip from WW II. the EFSF basically tried to secure the as much of zeon's mobile suit development personnel before they could be recruited by the retreating Axis fleet. An major part was securing zeon's R&D bases. the techs that the Fed did not capture or did not leave for Axis got absorbed in to AE when Zeonic was acquired.

I'm under the impression that EF didn't secure any Zeon personnel before the first group of Zeon soldiers left to Axis:

-All the newtype research data from the Flanagan Insitute was also deleted before the EF got access to it.
-We are told that the production lines of the MS-06F2 were destroyed before the EF got access to them, must likely by the Zeon forces that rallied there before leaving for Axis. As a side note, I strongly suspect that the destruction of MS production lines was not limited to the MS-06F2's, but most likely also of other MS, specially higher end units like Rick Doms and Gelgoogs.
-There's also the case of Pezun which the EF didn't capture until more than a year after the end of the war.

On the other hand, as you say, we are told that the EF captured several Zeon MS production lines, specially at California Base, and that their newtype research is based on a blueprint from the Zeong found at A Baoa Qu.

The only known case I do remember that fits the criteria you mention might be Elliot Rem:

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Elliot_Rem

And as you also mentioned, the eF got access to Zeon technology specially once AE abosrbed Zeonic.

The RMS-106 Hi-zack was an result of the federation needing an cheap modern ms to fill rank and hiring AE to build it what they got was an Zaku style ms built to GM standards internal as former zeon staff designed it.

My take on the Hizack is that it wasn't developed by AE (IIRC Mark mentioned the same thing a long time ago). After we are told that the key difference between the Hizack and the Marasai is that the later is basically AE's version of the Hizack (with a couple improvements such as better armor materials added in the process). More improtantly, let's not forget that the -10 prefix only indicates the production site, not necessarily the development site, which would also be the case of the GM II, originally developed as the RGM-79R and produced as the RMS-179R once the facilities at Gryps were ready to do so.

Personally I think that the simplest explanation would be for the Hizack to have been designed to be manufactured at the bunch of captured Zeon production lines that were still cranking Zeon MS for the EF forces. But what about the Granada facilities? Well, we are told that in fact the Zaku production lines at Granada (for producing F2-types) were destroyed by fleeing Zeon forces at the end of the war, so these had to be rebuilt from scratch afterwards and by extension were not Zaku production lines like the other ones.

In fact, maybe we could try to rationilize the existance of two prototype versions of the Hizack on this idea: a YRMS-106 designed to be produced at the new Granada production lines and a RX-106 meant to be mass produced at captured Zeon production lines elsewhere. As Mark pointed out, the existance of the RMS-116H and RMS-119 does confirm that Hizacks were not exclusively built at Granada.

The federation seemed to have done limited runs of the MS-11 for data collection and to fill ranks while the MS-14 was refined at luna II granted the RMS factory code 11 as there factory's 7th ms produced the RMS-117 witch seemed to be an competing unit to the hizack built at plant 10 Granada.

Yes on the MS-11 being used for collecting data, mainly for its magnetic coating. After all, the oens seen on Zeta are stationed at the same facility where the TMA Gaplant is located, which uses magentic coating for its transformation system.

Your assumption on the MS-14 sounds completley wrong though: we know the EF obtained the data on the Galbaldy series upon capturing Pezun. As you may know, the Galbaldy series were essentially Gelgoogs built on Gyan production lines and the resulting MS seemed far better than the standard Gelgoog. Furthermore, the Galbaldy Beta seems to be a further improvement from the Galbaldy Alpha, probably on a simialr scale as between the MS-14A and the MS-14Jg. The later has been pointed out to probably have been intentionally given its red color scheme to show a relationship with the Galbaldy Beta.

Finally, regarding whther the 7 in RMS-117 indicates it being the 7th MS produced at that facility, I think we can safely discard that idea: the first MS produced at Gryps seems to be the RMS-179 and the second one the RX-178. The last number doesn't show the order in which MS are produced or developed. Rather they simply seem to be showing a relationship to the machine they are based on:

RX-178 -> RX-78-2
RMS-179 -> RGM-79R
RMS-117 -> MS-17B
RMS-106 -> MS-06F

[JEFFPIATT]

I got the model number explanation from an archived gundam project page http://www.angelfire.com/zine/trd/etc/G ... umbers.htm

In Zeta Gundam and ZZ Gundam - circa UC 0087 to UC 0089 - the Federal Forces briefly adopt a different model number scheme. In this system, the first two digits of the model number indicate where the mobile suit was developed, while the third digit indicates the sequential order. Thus, the RMS-106 Hizack is the sixth mobile suit type developed at Granada.

Strangly it seems convent that all of the suits based on one year war units upgraded with modern tech get model codes that are the old number with 100 added to it. like the gundam mk II being the 8th unit developed at gryps and after the mk 2 the new run of GM II units were 9. but the change in full model number seems to indicate that another site did the specialized unit the EWAC Zack was done at luna II along with the hobby version. but with sunrise revising uc history i don't know if the model code expiation is still in use but the Titans burning through all of the UC 100's open RX model codes would explain why SNRI moved the the formula code system and why we only see RGM codes on final mp units as the RMS code was retired post grypts.

[AmuroNT1]

More improtantly, let's not forget that the -10 prefix only indicates the production site, not necessarily the development site, which would also be the case of the GM II, originally developed as the RGM-79R and produced as the RMS-179R once the facilities at Gryps were ready to do so.

I thought the explanation for the GM II's model numbers was that RGM-79R represented units made by upgrading older GMs while RMS-179 indicated units built from scratch.

Also, re: the Zeta model number scheme, since the first two digits represent development location, maybe the third digit represents development order rather than production order; therefore, the Gundam Mk-II would have been designed before the GM II, but the latter was the first to be built.

[JEFFPIATT]

With the GM II model codes the RGM-79R is the code for the first run of units refitted from existing RGM-79 units. Some time after the MK II was designed Titans command had Grypts ms factory produce an all new run of GM II units under the RMS-179 model code more than likely this was to recycle the existing RGM-79Q lines that would have been on site and to have normal units to issue to the normal EFSF garrison and any titans officers who refused to use the Hi-zack. We also have to remember the first two digits in the UC 0087 to UC 0089 coding scheme are for the development site on normal ms. The Gundam Mk-II and the new production GM II was developed at Grypts but new GM II units could also be built at Luna II with the same model code the Hi-zack Custom also has dual model codes some units are RMS-106CS but others are marked RMS-116 witch seems to imply that the custom was developed at luna II and may have acted as the Hobby versions ancestor.

[Gelgoog Jager]

Let's not forget the RX-110 Gabthley: definitely it is a new model TMS, developed and produced after the Galbaldy Beta and the Hizacks at Luna II.

By the way, this talk about the RMS codes reminded me of something: why California Base is not included among the RMS development sites?

Before the OYW it's supposed to be one of largest development facilities, second only to Jaburo, and by the the end of the OYW the EF has recaptured the base and begun production of their own MS (GM Cannons among other units). However it's not mentioned again after that.

On the other hand, oddly enough Jaburo gets two RMS codes -18* and -19*. I suppose captured MS could have been taken to Jaburo, much like the MS-07H.

But since we now know that the RMS-192M is directly based on the MS-06M-1, could it be that the RMS-19* was actually meant for California Base? We do know that California Base was where Zeon's MSM series research took place, so it would seem like a prime choice for developing and/or converting Zaku Mariners and Marine Hizacks (MSM-01).

[JEFFPIATT]

it could be that the California Base was made an satellite plant for Jaburo post war we do see that the prototypes from that base were relocated to Jaburo including the MS-07H Gouf flight type. it's not an odd thing to have an remote base be operated as part of an distant faculty NASA does this with there assembly plant in Louisiana the Michoud Assembly Facility its run by the John C. Stennis Space Center in Mississippi. So Adminstration was done by Jaburo and Calfornia only did MS environmental conversions and specializations. but on paper work 19 was linked only to the one base.

[Gelgoog Jager]

Considering that AE develops the Rick Dias under the RMS-099 designation (supposedly the Sweetwater colony), I'm now wondering if there might more RMS-0** codes for units from other facilities?

Maybe the MRX and NRX codes, while indicating the Newtype lab with the prefix letter, also indicate the production facility with the -04* and -05* numbers in accordance to the RMS designation. I think this discussion might worth making a separate topic for.

Back to the Xeku series, I think I feel comfortable thinking that it might have indeed meant to be the missing MS-20 unit, but given is model number (RMS-141 instead of RMS-140), perhaps the EF decided to do further refinements to the design. Perhaps we have a RX-140 Prototype Xeku somewhere, which might indeed have been the design made by Pezun, which the EF later developed into two new MS, the RMS-141 and RMS-142.

All that being said, we also have examples of RMS units that didn't keep the last number of the MS they might be based on, such as the RMS-192M (MS-06M-1) and the RMS-119 (MS-06/RMS-106), so the possibility remains that if the Xeku series was the MS-20, they simply reclassified as RMS-141. After all, I already stated a relationship between it and the AMX-011 Zaku III.