What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

[Erisie]

Though on the other side of the argument I don't believe their much that says standard beam weapons are different from the Ion Cannon aside from not being directly labeled as Ion Weapons.

The problem with this discussion is that, despite SEED being promoted as "21st Century's Mobile Suit Gundam" and despite having an eminent science-fiction figure like Shigeru Morita on board to do setting materials, the technology in SEED was never fully elaborated, a shortcoming that the original did not have for the most part: MSG at least bothered to explain that there was a sub-set of fictional physics (Minovsky drives, mega-particles, I-fields) and psychic phenomena (individuals with ESP and mind-powered weapons).

SEED never explained what powers their "beam" weapons, for instance. Not even in side material. The closest SEED did to this was with the Mirage Colloid thing, and that basically behaves at the whims of the writers, with half a dozen abilities at the same time.

I could rant on and on as to how the technical part of the setting wasn't the focus of the CE at any point, but let's leave it at, with all the time that has passed and the data books/side material published, it wasn't an oversight.

[Mimeblade]

My main problem has always been Akatsuki... how can something "reflect" electrical energy? Pretty sure that's not how it works.

[monster]

My main problem has always been Akatsuki... how can something "reflect" electrical energy? Pretty sure that's not how it works.

From the animation, it seems like it absorbs and then release the energy back, which makes me think it doesn't have to release it back at the original shooter unless it has to release it quickly with no time to choose and switch target.

If it reflects, it would probably have to do it at an angle.

[E08]

The Akatsuki's armor reflects beam energy. Below is the explanation for how the armor works courtesy of toysdream in one of the old threads.

The golden Yata-no-Kagami beam-reflecting armor which makes such a strong impression on the viewer is not only the Akatsuki's most distinctive feature, but also the cause of its soaring development costs. Made up of nano-scale beam-diffracting lattice layers and critical plasma suppression layers, this system not only protects the Akatsuki from incoming beams, but also uses the machine's sensors to track enemies and automatically redirect these beams back at them, thus combining offense and defense.

[MythSearcher]

SEED never explained what powers their "beam" weapons, for instance. Not even in side material. The closest SEED did to this was with the Mirage Colloid thing, and that basically behaves at the whims of the writers, with half a dozen abilities at the same time.

I could rant on and on as to how the technical part of the setting wasn't the focus of the CE at any point, but let's leave it at, with all the time that has passed and the data books/side material published, it wasn't an oversight.

Well, I must say that at least there's enough for us to rationalize a theory for it.
Since Positron beams can be deflected with the same defense technology, at least some of the beam should be charged particles.
On the other hand, at least some of the beams are affected by the light bending Mirage Colloid, so those are likely of the electromagnetic wave type.
Or since the director is likely an idiot to begin with(did not bother do his homework even when he hired someone to do it for him), he likely confused beam with light, and thought of it as the same thing, even if it is called positron beam.(He only know that anti matter is more powerful, and what happens in the shows make those cannon nowhere near the power of antimatter(a full beam of anti matter in that diameter and length can destroy life on Earth by blowing away most of its atmosphere.)

[iamthebest22]

I'm not sure if this helps, but on the HG destiny's box, there's a pic here that shows it clashing beams with the infinite justice. here:
http://i.imgur.com/qrBc8si.jpg

[Mimeblade]

^ I don't think model kits will help explain something that seldom ever happens in-show.

You could show a kit Destiny kissing a kit of Justice and it wouldn't prove anything.

On that note, I still have no idea how "nano-scale beam-diffracting lattices / critical plasma suppression" and "sensors" can actually reflect electricity so precisely as to hit the shooter.

[domino]

There is enough evidence that beam sabers can indeed clash even though SEED pilots choose to use their shields instead. Honestly, using your shield may be safer only because it's CE. In UC, shields are often destroyed by stronger beam sabers

Regarding the Akatsuki, the technology is probably as versatile as Mirage Colloid so it's better to just accept that "it works"

[Sabersonic]

Well, I went over the episode where the Sword Impulse and the Gaia Gundam first had their bout to see if they had indeed crossed beam sabers. From video evidence here, here and here, it apparently shows a preference towards countering a beam saber with a shield, or to be exact an Anti-Beam Coated shield. Though from looking up the whole "Kira paries beam shots with beam saber" video evidence, there is one semi-visible evidence of beam saber clashing when the Freedom dueled the Providence.

I was gonna go on a tangent on how CE Beam Sabers might potentially only parry or deflect, not block for an extended amount of time, but the above link with Freedom and Providence kinda killed my idea. Then again, it could be that battery-powered Mobile Suits with Beam Sabers can't produce the amount of power necessary to produce the amount of repelling force needed to fully block a beam saber but Mobile Suits with on-board nuclear reactors can. Though from what I can figures on this Skallagrim video, (European) sword duals don't have lingering blocks as seen in movies, but rather parries so would a beam saber block even really be that theoretically effective as seen on Gundam when real swordplay is nothing like cinematic swordplay?

[Gundam0089]

I've recently revisited this topic and saw that whackymodder has shared more on this subject in a comment just recently. Someone posted a counter argument, which was pretty sound to me. Hence I posted "nice post" on YouTube. An hour later whackymodder was there. Odd though that the post he replied to was made 17 weeks ago. Did he reply because I thought the other comment was good? Lol.


Anyway, here is what went down.

Here is the counter argument to whacky modder.

There's still a 'little' bit left to say on the issue, because nonsense still makes no sense. And I enjoy making the sense, it's a pet-peeve when the math doesn't add up and 2+2 somehow equals 7. Bare with me here.

I'm not sure if you'd just read it wrong, misinterpreted the wording or not at the time, but from what I recall, you just said that C.E. beam weapons don't have a repelling factor due to the fact that they lack a field. This isn't true, because the exact same electromegnetic field that contains and shapes the superheated energy found in U.C. is also the exact same thing that shapes its C.E. counterpart. U.C.'s high-energy minovsky particles are held in place with this magnetic field the same way the mirage colloid particles are for C.E., despite you saying that the field is held in place by said colloid particles, when it's the opposite; the particles don't shape the field, it is the field that traps and shapes the particles.

This same electromagnetic-field does also indeed have a repelling factor, because if it didn't - which wouldn't make much sense any ways because it's providing a stable shape to the heated particles - then the Freedom's Lacertas wouldn't be able to interact with and successfully repel opposing incoming beam projections as it had already on multiple occasions. I recall you leaving that part out on the video as well.

I had the exact same questions as you and everyone else but I'd always gone back to that fact. But then I asked myself: "If it can do that, then why wouldn't they just use beam sabers to parry each other in the first place?"

The answer I came up with: Since everything conventional is powered by basically a gigantic duracell battery, and the further fact that even activating and forcing a temporary spike in overall output from a beam shield to even defend against attacks in the first place, then it's only logical that clashing beam sabers would force them to compensate and jack up their own output to re-assert themselves, thus draining the energy batteries in a much more rapid manner(also similar to even using powerful beam rifles, especially noted in Astray) to the point where just using a coated shield - something that draws no power whatsoever - is much more efficient than anything if a pilot absolutely won't(or can't) avoid the attack in the first place.

Even if you had the nigh-infinite output of a fission reactor such as the Strike Freedom, beam shield activation upon impact with a ridiculous amount of offensive, high-output energy(Legend's full DRAGOON pod barrage) can still drain the power supply to the point where it overloads and there's no longer any surplus for thrust and basic flight functions, and thus would send it tumbling out of the sky for a brief moment. It's actually the 'only' moment of weakness and vulnerability that we see the Strike Freedom in, where it could legitimately and completely be destroyed by that shot that Rey was about to take on him, had Athrun not intervened.

And as for the Justice slicing through the back of the Destiny's anti-ship sword? I'm going to have to agree that it 'was' indeed a design flaw in and of itself to kill off the beam from both sides, but to be honest, I believe the reason as to why it even connects itself the way it does to both ports of the weapon itself is to create intense density along one side, allowing it to much more easily slice through anything that the pilot pleased. Were it on both sides, the energy consumption would likely be too great to leave ignited for long with prolonged swinging like a madman.

But then again, that theory didn't even make much sense either, considering the Impulse didn't have much of an issue spamming its own beam rifle along with having dual anti-ship swords. Hey, a design-flaw is a design-flaw. They exist for a reason, just like they did in most WWII tanks and tank destroyers, before being later addressed. Some mistakes just repeat themselves for no reason. 

Regardless, I digress;  do you remember how the Arondight's output and density allowed it to slice through the Akatsuki's advanced anti-beam(mirror coated) shield with little effort? The Super Lacerta beam sabers both it and the Freedom carries are improved versions of their predecessors, meaning that when that thing hit the back of the Arondight, then it'd perform just as the anti-ship sword did on that shield. 

Not sure if it holds much relevance to the issue but in an occassion, it even looked like the Destiny and Akatsuki clashed blades once while their were engaged, but then again it was probably being blocked with that little handy-shield on its left forearm. The thing that tips this off is the Destiny's pose when they collide - it looks like it's in that traditional parrying stance we're used to seeing. Just one of those little scenes like the one you pointed out where the Murasame looked like it'd got hit with a "blue beam" from the palma fiocina, where you can't see the Destiny actually firing anything off-screen.

And here now is whacky's response. Fresh from 9 hours ago.

"the exact same electromegnetic field that contains and shapes the superheated energy found in U.C. is also the exact same thing that shapes its C.E. counterpart."

FALSE.
The U.C. has an extra ingredient here. Minovsky Particles. The I-Field that it generates with that is what the repelling factor is for the U.C, not the Electromagnetic field itself that forms the I-Field. But rather the I-Field that it's molding the shape of.

> "This same electromagnetic-field does also indeed have a repelling factor, because if it didn't - which wouldn't make much sense any ways because it's providing a stable shape to the heated particles - then the Freedom's Lacertas wouldn't be able to interact with and successfully repel opposing incoming beam projections as it had already on multiple occasions. I recall you leaving that part out on the video as well."

Because I felt that was completely irrelevant to what I was talking about. But apparently people still don't know. Beam Rifles and Beam Sabers use two completely different types of Beam Particles, dude. Beam Rifles involve Plasma with their Beams. Sabers do not. And apparently according to Fukuda and Sunrise, that is what allows Beam Sabers in C.E. to block Beam Shots, but not other sabers. And yes, it doesn't make sense. You're literally poking for answers that don't exist, I'm afraid. I've already checked everything with them, and this is the outcome. And it makes Zero Sense, sad to say.

> "then it's only logical that clashing beam sabers would force them to compensate and jack up their own output to re-assert themselves, thus draining the energy batteries in a much more rapid manner(also similar to even using powerful beam rifles, especially noted in Astray) to the point where just using a coated shield - something that draws no power whatsoever - is much more efficient than anything if a pilot absolutely won't(or can't) avoid the attack in the first place."

Yes, it would only be logical for that. But you're forgetting one very crucial thing:
The director is a fucking idiot, and the writer is an even bigger fucking idiot, who both have no idea how to make Pseudo-Science in a Gundam Anime make any sense whatsoever.

> "And as for the Justice slicing through the back of the Destiny's anti-ship sword?"

It didn't. It sliced right through the Arondight's Blade and THEN cut the whole sword in half after that. I specifically showed that in the video with visual proof. Why is there still doubt?

> "Regardless, I digress;  do you remember how the Arondight's output and density allowed it to slice through the Akatsuki's advanced anti-beam(mirror coated) shield with little effort?"

And do YOU remember that Yata-no-Kagami doesn't protect you against Beam BLADES? It only protects you against Beam PROJECTILES. In terms of Beam Sabers and Beam Boomerangs, it offers Zero Protection against that. Hence the reason why Yata-no-Kagami is exactly as Nonsensical as Phase Shift Armor is, but for the Opposite Reason.

> "it even looked like the Destiny and Akatsuki clashed blades once while their were engaged, but then again it was probably being blocked with that little handy-shield on its left forearm"

Correct. The Destiny did block with the shield on it's left arm if you look very closely at that moment of impact. The animation is so shitty that it's hard to see, but that's what really happened.

> "Just one of those little scenes like the one you pointed out where the Murasame looked like it'd got hit with a "blue beam" from the palma fiocina, where you can't see the Destiny actually firing anything off-screen."

Except that actually made sense, since the Palma Fiocina is one of the only weapons in the Cosmic Era that fires that color beam. So what else could it have been?

Whacky says that before the HD releases of SEED and Destiny, there was a lot of saber clashing, but apparently they were removed in the HD cuts. So...at one point they could clash, but he seems to believe that Sunrise realized they technically can't, so now that they're removed...retcon?

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

Yes, it would only be logical for that. But you're forgetting one very crucial thing:
The director is a ZOINKS idiot, and the writer is an even bigger ZOINKS idiot, who both have no idea how to make Pseudo-Science in a Gundam Anime make any sense whatsoever.

Ah, yes, the "you would have a point, but I don't like the staff, therefore you're wrong" argument. How logical.

[monster]

Yes, it would only be logical for that. But you're forgetting one very crucial thing:
The director is a ZOINKS idiot, and the writer is an even bigger ZOINKS idiot, who both have no idea how to make Pseudo-Science in a Gundam Anime make any sense whatsoever.

Ah, yes, the "you would have a point, but I don't like the staff, therefore you're wrong" argument. How logical.

Apparently what this person is saying is that the director/writer/company already said something somewhere that would contradict the otherwise perfectly plausible explanation the other person came up with.

Referring to this:

Because I felt that was completely irrelevant to what I was talking about. But apparently people still don't know. Beam Rifles and Beam Sabers use two completely different types of Beam Particles, dude. Beam Rifles involve Plasma with their Beams. Sabers do not. And apparently according to Fukuda and Sunrise, that is what allows Beam Sabers in C.E. to block Beam Shots, but not other sabers. And yes, it doesn't make sense. You're literally poking for answers that don't exist, I'm afraid. I've already checked everything with them, and this is the outcome. And it makes Zero Sense, sad to say.

It'd be nice if someone can either corroborate that or disprove it.

[Mimeblade]

"Zero Sense"... lol

I doubt "Zero" has any answers for this either.

[Gundam0089]

Isn't it plausible that the fields that hold the saber particles together can just repel each other when clashing?

[Enchanter468]

Isn't it plausible that the fields that hold the saber particles together can just repel each other when clashing?

Absolutely. Ever tried to put two magnetic South or North poles together? It's borderline impossible. Given that the plasma in a beam saber is held in place with a magnetic field, it's perfectly reasonable to assume that the magnetic fields simply repel one another when the sabers meet.

The problem with this discussion is that, despite SEED being promoted as "21st Century's Mobile Suit Gundam" and despite having an eminent science-fiction figure like Shigeru Morita on board to do setting materials, the technology in SEED was never fully elaborated, a shortcoming that the original did not have for the most part: MSG at least bothered to explain that there was a sub-set of fictional physics (Minovsky drives, mega-particles, I-fields) and psychic phenomena (individuals with ESP and mind-powered weapons).

To be fair, I've never seen a Gundam show go into great depth about how its technology works in-series. The show explains precisely what it has to for the sake of the story and leaves everything else for the website and/or books (just books in the pre-internet days). Mobile Suit Gundam mentions stuff like I-fields, mega particles, etc., but doesn't explain how such things work in the show itself because it isn't necessary for the narrative (we know the RX-78's beam rifle packs a punch similar to a warship's mega particle cannons, but the show never explains about the E-CAP and how it allows this to be possible).

If we are including supplementary materials like Gundamofficial (no longer updated, but available via the Internet Wayback Machine), then SEED does a pretty good job at explaining itself, though there are some gaps. Furthermore, finding ways to explain things for which there is no official explanation is hardly a bad thing, as much of the now-official UC science was fan speculation that Sunrise endorsed and adopted.

Now, I'm pretty sure Wackymodder is wrong on several points. First, and most obviously, CE beam sabers can clash with each other, as the screencaps have shown. Second, I think he's misinterpreted the relationship between beam sabers and Mirage Colloid technology. Mirage Colloid has one function: redirecting light.

From Gundamofficial:

The Mirage Colloid itself is a particulate gas made up of microscopic prisms which absorb and refract light and radio waves, bending them around the outside of the mobile suit. This colloid is held in place by a powerful magnetic field, but it gradually dissipates over time, so the system's operating time is limited to 80 minutes.

Now when it comes to beam sabers...

The blade of the beam saber is formed using the same magnetic field generation technology that holds the Blitz Gundam's Mirage Colloid in place.

Given the wording, I don't think colloid particles are involved at all. I think the only connecting thread here is the magnetic field, which is generated by the same machinery.

And finally...

1. For some reason, when the Destiny attempted to block the Infinite Justice's sabers with its hands, it seemed to have worked, which does not make any sense to me. The sabers should've just cut through the hands without waiting for the hands to make a grab, unless they really were being blocked by the hands' weapons, which still should've caused the explosion without the hands grabbing or should've won.

2. The Freedom was able to deflect beam shots with its saber.

Shinn fired the Palma Fiocinas at the same time the sabers arrived. I'd imagine the kinetic energy of the particle beams held back the blades for a moment, after which the particle beams petered out and the sabers cut through the hands.

Granted, I don't think the particle beams would have enough momentum for that, but particle beams of ludicrous power are something of a hallmark of the Gundam franchise as a whole, so I'll let it pass.

As for the saber deflecting beams, that one makes perfect sense. Any charged particle passing through a magnetic field experiences a force perpendicular to both its current path of movement and the direction of the magnetic field lines. This is called the Lorentz force, and it's how the Earth's magnetic field deflects the solar wind. The beam saber is magnetically contained plasma, so if you put it in the right place, any charged particle beam running into it will be deflected.

[Gundam0089]

Good read Enchanter.

[MythSearcher]

Absolutely. Ever tried to put two magnetic South or North poles together? It's borderline impossible. Given that the plasma in a beam saber is held in place with a magnetic field, it's perfectly reasonable to assume that the magnetic fields simply repel one another when the sabers meet.

Technically true, realistically impractical.
This is what the UC explains their clashing, even for heat weapons(electromagnetic forces controlling the I-Field that holds the plasma)
Practically speaking, notice how close you have to get the magnets before their forces becomes strong enough to give you some significant resistance? The beam sabres are not clashing at the hilt, but in the middle portion of the beam, which is likely a few metres from where the field is generated.
By the inverse square law, the strength of the magnetic field will need to be very strong and power consuming for it to be able to stop the full force of 2 MSs rushing towards each other. You are giving out power that is likely at least a magnitude higher than your beam sabre just to make them clash with each other? Unlikely in a more realistic situation. When you are already giving that much power, use it for the attack, diverting it to hit the enemy and game's over, you do not need clashing at all.

For deflecting solar wind, you need about 50 microTesla(magnetic sail), to deflect any laser, you need 5T.(holding the plasma enough to do so, that is)
http://earthweb.ess.washington.edu/space/M2P2/
http://www2.le.ac.uk/offices/press/pres ... or-shields

The power consumption is 5 magnitudes difference...

The 4T CMS in the LHC is enomous...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Muon_Solenoid

[Enchanter468]

Technically true, realistically impractical.
This is what the UC explains their clashing, even for heat weapons(electromagnetic forces controlling the I-Field that holds the plasma)
Practically speaking, notice how close you have to get the magnets before their forces becomes strong enough to give you some significant resistance? The beam sabres are not clashing at the hilt, but in the middle portion of the beam, which is likely a few metres from where the field is generated.
By the inverse square law, the strength of the magnetic field will need to be very strong and power consuming for it to be able to stop the full force of 2 MSs rushing towards each other. You are giving out power that is likely at least a magnitude higher than your beam sabre just to make them clash with each other? Unlikely in a more realistic situation. When you are already giving that much power, use it for the attack, diverting it to hit the enemy and game's over, you do not need clashing at all.

For deflecting solar wind, you need about 50 microTesla(magnetic sail), to deflect any laser, you need 5T.(holding the plasma enough to do so, that is)
http://earthweb.ess.washington.edu/space/M2P2/
http://www2.le.ac.uk/offices/press/pres ... or-shields

The power consumption is 5 magnitudes difference...

The 4T CMS in the LHC is enomous...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Muon_Solenoid

Oh, it's definitely impractical, but this is the point where you have to step back and realize that this is a franchise about giant metal samurai fighting in space . Some level of impracticality is inherent in Gundam as a whole. The best Gundam science tends to be the stuff that, while not technically accurate, operates on understandable physical principles, so you can see how it could hypothetically work, even though realistically you know it wouldn't happen that way.

[Gundam0089]

I'd say the magnetic fields repelling eachother is a "meh, good enough" explanation in the end. Works for me.

[MythSearcher]

Oh, it's definitely impractical, but this is the point where you have to step back and realize that this is a franchise about giant metal samurai fighting in space . Some level of impracticality is inherent in Gundam as a whole. The best Gundam science tends to be the stuff that, while not technically accurate, operates on understandable physical principles, so you can see how it could hypothetically work, even though realistically you know it wouldn't happen that way.

Well, surprisingly a lot of that is technically true.
Trans-humanoids in space combat with the AMBAC explanation is actually not just feasible, but likely to happen as long as energy technology becomes more advanced.(of course will look much more different and less artistic.)

Beam weapons are also feasible.

Close combat is not likely and technically impossible for human reaction speeds.

For the magnetic field repelling each other, I had a slightly more practical hypothesis.
They are not strong enough to hold down two MS clashing, but when the MS's hands senses the slight EM field and resistance from the hilt, they stop swinging the sabres(or whatever beam/heat weapons they are holding) and proceed to stop going forward(full backward acceleration) or sliding side ways(more likely). Its a safety feature for both sides, if you cheat and disable the safety, your enemy's blade will also keep swinging, thus both sides get hit. This will be more likely a mutual unstated feature added in.(works pretty well under game theory at least) And do not require a really high power consumption.