What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

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BrentD15
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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by BrentD15 » Sat Apr 30, 2016 10:33 am

Product9 wrote:The Strike Rouge kit isn't sufficient evidence.

Besides, wasn't it discussed in this very thread that it did not in fact state beam sabers could not repel one another? That all of that was conjecture made by a specific YouTuber?

Furthermore, how do you figure an electromagnetic field powerful enough to suspend a plasma in a given shape wouldn't be able to repel another, similarly charged electromagnetic field of similar power?

Furtherfurthermore, where is it written beam sabers are contained by an electromagnetic field?

Furthestmost, I have cited specific examples in the anime where sabers are clashing (with screenshot proof), to include the intro of the HD Remaster. There has been no evidence to support the claim that saber clashes were edited out of the HD Remaster other than baseless hearsay. I have also debunked the theory that Infinite Justice's beam saber passed through the blade of Destiny's anti-ship sword.

So again, I ask. Where is your proof?
Again, the Strike Rouge kit.
And speaking of that YouTuber, he did a lot of research into his claims and has the evidence to back them up.

The prosecution rests, your honor. :mrgreen:
E08 wrote:
BrentD15 wrote:
Product9 wrote:I understand and accept that you disagree, but some proof to support your claim would be appreciated.
It's from the Strike Rouge kit.
Just curious BrentD15, what is it about the Strike Rouge kit are you talking about? The beam saber being a stream of plasma in the electromagnetic field or the "good job" of consistency thingy?
The magnetic field/electromagnetic field.
It's been a while since I glanced over the information. :oops:
E08 wrote:
Product9 wrote:Furthermore, where is it written beam sabers are contained by an electromagnetic field?
Well, we do know that magnetic field technology is needed for the beam saber to function. Here's the relevant text from the archived Gundam Official: "The blade of the beam saber is formed using the same magnetic field generation technology that holds the Blitz Gundam's Mirage Colloid in place." Similar wording is also used by model kits' manuals when talking about the beam saber. I'm not very good in physics, so i'm not sure if the magnetic field here is implying electromagnetic field...
It probably was a magnetic field, and I confused it with electromagnetic.
Again, it's been a while, and I have been engrossed in other things besides Gundam recently. :oops:
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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by E08 » Sat Apr 30, 2016 10:41 am

Ok, in which Strike Rouge kit was it mentioned the beam saber contains plasma? Because i glanced through most of them and see no mention of plasma...

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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by Product9 » Sat Apr 30, 2016 2:58 pm

BrentD15 wrote:Again, the Strike Rouge kit.
And speaking of that YouTuber, he did a lot of research into his claims and has the evidence to back them up.
No, he doesn't. There is no evidence to back up those claims, which is exactly what this whole thread has been about. If there is evidence, why not post it here for all to see? Why hide it?

Meanwhile, I've provided actual evidence, and yet you choose to ignore it?

The YouTuber in question is simply wrong, and not just about the beam sabers. He's wrong about a lot of things.

If you disagree, then how 'bout some proof? And I mean actual proof, as in images, scans, screenshots. Stop referencing an obscure Japanese model kit manual that you probably haven't even read yourself.

Also, much earlier in this thread, the insinuations made from that very manual have possibly already been debunked.
Gundam0089 wrote:The kit explained the tech, but didn't say the sabers couldnt clash. That was all Whacky.

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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by Erisie » Sat Apr 30, 2016 3:15 pm

Kuruni wrote:*Cough* Railgun was around in UC since M-MSV and F90. I'm pretty sure 1990 isn't "recent" in this context.
Thanks, Kuruni. I knew there was a railgun of sorts in one of the MSV models. So, yeah, railguns have appeared in UC for decades now, at least in MSV and manga.

Product9 wrote:You'd think if they could make antimatter so easily there wouldn't be any energy shortages due to the neutron jammers.
People both here and in "the image board" tend to make a huge deal about the CE having antimatter-powered weapons (the most powerful energy production method known by current physics), to which I'd add an important caveat. Note that the cannons are positron weapons, which are only antiparticles, not full-fledged antimatter, a full atom made of positrons and anti-protons. Making positrons (technical term is "emission") is a relatively simple affair compared to the complete process to produce and store antimatter. A PET scan (positron emission tomography) uses a radionuclide drug, which decays inside the body into high-energy positrons and other particles.
Product9 wrote:Murrue Ramius specifically didn't want to use the Lohengrin in Earth's atmosphere because of the devastating effects of the gamma ray burst from annihilations
I don't remember Murrue specifically mentioning the gamma-rays generated by the Lohengrins. Which would be correct, actually: matter-antimatter annihilation produces gamma rays. What makes an antimatter warhead "cleaner" than a current-day fission nuke is the absence of fallout.
Product9 wrote:The positron cannons are weapons of mass destruction.
A particle cannon with a high-enough acceleration velocity would be one as well. The operation is different, but the effects are more or less the same.
Product9 wrote:and in one instance a blast on the level of a medium-sized nuclear explosion when the beam hit seawater (this is what a lot of fans think was Freedom's nuclear reactor exploding, but it's pretty clear that's not what happened. You can see the Tannhauser beam connecting the Minerva and the origin of the blast).
You, me and everyone else knows that the cataclysmic explosion was meant to appear as it was the Freedom's reactor exploding. The Tannheuser beam appears for a couple of frames only.
Product9 wrote:Also, they are referring to a particle beam accelerated to near relativistic velocity, which, IMO, the positron cannons in the CE timeline are far from reaching.
The thing is that, if the positron beam worked exclusively by matter-antimatter annihilation, then its energy would detonate immediately after leaving the cannon's nozzle, at least on Earth. And, in regards to relativistic acceleration of particles, current syncrotrons can accelerate subatomic particles to high percentages of the speed of light. The LHC can achieve acceleration speeds of 99.999999% c. With technological advances, it is possible to accelerate particles even beyond the Oh-My-God particle (a proton detected over Utah on 1991, traveling at 99.99999999999999999999951% c)

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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by Brave Fencer Kirby » Sat Apr 30, 2016 4:08 pm

Erisie wrote:You, me and everyone else knows that the cataclysmic explosion was meant to appear as it was the Freedom's reactor exploding.
Actually, I always figured it was meant to be a steam explosion resulting from Freedom's reactor coming into contact with seawater, rather than an actual nuclear blast. For one, we see Kira hitting the emergency reactor cutoff before the explosion (which, given that it's CE we're talking about, probably just means cutting power to the n-jammer canceler). For two, nuclear reactors simply cannot explode like nuclear bombs -- it just isn't physically possible. It actually takes quite a bit of effort to cause a nuclear explosion, and nuclear weapons have to be carefully engineered to pull it off.
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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by Product9 » Sat Apr 30, 2016 5:51 pm

Erisie wrote:You, me and everyone else knows that the cataclysmic explosion was meant to appear as it was the Freedom's reactor exploding. The Tannheuser beam appears for a couple of frames only.
No, I do not agree. The explosion was caused by the Tannhauser beam hitting the seawater. Everytime the Tannhauser hits something it causes ridiculous effects.

For example, this clip I found on YouTube:

YouTube Link

I've taken some screenshots and made an album which I will link:

Imgur Album

Further, we can see similar effects when the Minerva uses the Tannhauser on the moon in episode 44. Notice the lack of explosions around the Tannhauser beam, and the tremendous blast the impact produces. Or, did Freedom explode there too?

Tannhauser vs the Moon
Erisie wrote:The thing is that, if the positron beam worked exclusively by matter-antimatter annihilation, then its energy would detonate immediately after leaving the cannon's nozzle, at least on Earth.
It does. See the screenshots. This phenomenon is only observed when positron cannons are used in atmosphere, and not when in space.
Erisie wrote:And, in regards to relativistic acceleration of particles, current syncrotrons can accelerate subatomic particles to high percentages of the speed of light.
This is true, but were talking minuscule masses here. Particle weapons, no matter what the flavor, rely on mass to do their work. More mass means more energy transfer, as well as more energy required to accelerate them, which is why we don't see practical particle weaponry today.
Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:Actually, I always figured it was meant to be a steam explosion resulting from Freedom's reactor coming into contact with seawater, rather than an actual nuclear blast. For one, we see Kira hitting the emergency reactor cutoff before the explosion (which, given that it's CE we're talking about, probably just means cutting power to the n-jammer canceler). For two, nuclear reactors simply cannot explode like nuclear bombs -- it just isn't physically possible. It actually takes quite a bit of effort to cause a nuclear explosion, and nuclear weapons have to be carefully engineered to pull it off.
Again, the explosion was caused by the Minerva. Kira didn't cut the reactor off until he was already sinking into the sea. As for why he did this, we aren't explicitly told. Probably just to prevent a meltdown which would result in an environmental disaster. He is a nice guy after all.

And yes, nuclear reactors cannot become nuclear bombs, no matter how much you abuse them.

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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by Erisie » Sun May 01, 2016 12:22 am

Product9 wrote:No, I do not agree. The explosion was caused by the Tannhauser beam hitting the seawater.
Yes, I agree with you and the evidence. However, from the point of view of the drama, it was clearly supposed to create the (false) idea that Freedom was destroyed by the explosion.
Product9 wrote:
Erisie wrote:The thing is that, if the positron beam worked exclusively by matter-antimatter annihilation, then its energy would detonate immediately after leaving the cannon's nozzle, at least on Earth.
It does. See the screenshots. This phenomenon is only observed when positron cannons are used in atmosphere, and not when in space.
Apart from the air exploding in the immediate vicinity of the beam, it maintains a high degree of coherence from the Tannhäuser's nozzle to its target. If it works purely by matter-antimatter annihilation, this shouldn't happen. The second antimatter enters in contact with a high-density matter environment like Earth's atmosphere, it should immediately convert into energy, destroying the Minerva with it.

All of this evidence creates a different set of problems: Freedom, Impulse and Strike were able to survive point-blank antimatter annihilation shots, with the mobile suits more or less intact and all its pilots surviving. Even if we accept that MS have enough shielding to protect the pilots from the gamma rays, the energy is strong enough to turn the units into dust.
You're telling me that they're powerful enough to turn an entire lunar base into dust (the Tannhäuser's GIF) and sink a battleship with a single shot (Dominion), yet an MS can block the shot with its rifle and its pilot surviving? And two MS are barely damaged by it? For the sake of an explanation, I'd argue that, based on the effects seen in both series (especially when we see the effects of the Lohengrin Gate on the initial ZAFT assault compared to the Minerva's Tannhäuser), ZAFT's Tannhäuser is far more powerful than the EA's Lohengrin.
Product9 wrote:which is why we don't see practical particle weaponry today.
Just like the nuclear-pumped laser from Project Excalibur, the Strategic Defense Initiative attempted to weaponize a neutral particle beam during the 80s.
Product9 wrote:Probably just to prevent a meltdown which would result in an environmental disaster. He is a nice guy after all.
In the name of everything that's holy, please tell me that was sarcasm...

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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by Product9 » Sun May 01, 2016 2:05 am

Erisie wrote:Yes, I agree with you and the evidence. However, from the point of view of the drama, it was clearly supposed to create the (false) idea that Freedom was destroyed by the explosion.
Not a nuclear explosion though, which is my only point.
Erisie wrote:Apart from the air exploding in the immediate vicinity of the beam, it maintains a high degree of coherence from the Tannhäuser's nozzle to its target. If it works purely by matter-antimatter annihilation, this shouldn't happen. The second antimatter enters in contact with a high-density matter environment like Earth's atmosphere, it should immediately convert into energy, destroying the Minerva with it.
The amount of gamma ray photons released by annhilating with air is not enough to destroy the Minerva, and the instant after the shot is made all the air in the vicinity is gone. Again, if you watch the animation closely, you can see this happening. The small explosions happen, and then they are gone once the air is gone, leaving the beam to travel unimpeded.

The animation actually has a lot of really cool details like that if you pay attention. Unfortunately, I'm finding that a lot of Gundam fans have serious trouble paying attention (not to mention reading comprehension issues. Not directed at you, Erisie).
Erisie wrote:All of this evidence creates a different set of problems: Freedom, Impulse and Strike were able to survive point-blank antimatter annihilation shots, with the mobile suits more or less intact and all its pilots surviving. Even if we accept that MS have enough shielding to protect the pilots from the gamma rays, the energy is strong enough to turn the units into dust.
You're telling me that they're powerful enough to turn an entire lunar base into dust (the Tannhäuser's GIF) and sink a battleship with a single shot (Dominion), yet an MS can block the shot with its rifle and its pilot surviving? And two MS are barely damaged by it? For the sake of an explanation, I'd argue that, based on the effects seen in both series (especially when we see the effects of the Lohengrin Gate on the initial ZAFT assault compared to the Minerva's Tannhäuser), ZAFT's Tannhäuser is far more powerful than the EA's Lohengrin.
Apart from the original Strike Gundam, I don't recall any mobile suits being hit by a positron cannon and surviving (and Strike didn't survive either, just managed to hold off the blast with its anti-beam shield, a feat that was akin to a miracle. Only Mwu La Fraga could pull off such a stunt). Unless I'm forgetting something, so if you could clarify that I would appreciate it.

As for Impulse, it survived because it has phase shift armor (and it was pretty far away from the center of the blast), which was depleted in the explosion (see the episode for proof. I've made enough GIFs for one day). Also, since those mobile suits are designed for use in space, of course they have substantial radiation shielding. Their pilot suits do as well.

Presumably, the explosion from the Tannhauser shot is what blew Freedom into pieces, as all we saw was it being impaled by a sword. Next time we saw it, it was only a torso and head. It was also protected by phase shift armor, and we have no proof that the phase shift went down prior to being hit by the blast wave. In fact, we have no proof Freedom's reactor was even struck (unless someone can provide a blueprint or scene showing where the reactor resides).
Erisie wrote:Just like the nuclear-pumped laser from Project Excalibur, the Strategic Defense Initiative attempted to weaponize a neutral particle beam during the 80s.
I know of that, but it's not relevant to the discussion (and not what I consider a practical weapon. I mean, it's not like we see it being used).
Erisie wrote:In the name of everything that's holy, please tell me that was sarcasm...
No, it wasn't sarcasm. What other reason could there be to turn the reactor off? Unless he saw Cagalli coming and didn't want to irradiate his sister.

Kira knew he was done, so as a last gesture of good will he shut off the reactor so it wouldn't melt down. That's about the most plausible explanation I can think of. Given that he didn't know he would be rescued, does this not make sense?

Nuclear reactors can't explode like nuclear bombs, and I'm pretty sure the director of the series knows this. Now, you might point to Justice exploding, but there are a couple of possible explanations for that, but they are headcanon territory. Besides, that was a detonation. Big difference.

I'm more of the mind that Justice had within it a nuclear bomb as it's self-destruction device. It's pure conjecture, but makes sense, especially since we see other, non-nuclear, mobile suits self-destruct with spectacular results. If Aegis didn't have a bomb inside of it, you tell me how it blew up so dramatically. And before you say it was a capacitor explosion, remember the suit was out of juice.

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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by monster » Sun May 01, 2016 2:32 am

Product9 wrote:In fact, we have no proof Freedom's reactor was even struck (unless someone can provide a blueprint or scene showing where the reactor resides).
In this image, the place where the Freedom was impaled is the white part when seen from the back whereas the nuclear reactor (assuming it's in the same place as with the Justice, as shown in SEED) would be in the blue part above it.

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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by Product9 » Sun May 01, 2016 3:58 am

monster wrote:In this image, the place where the Freedom was impaled is the white part when seen from the back whereas the nuclear reactor (assuming it's in the same place as with the Justice, as shown in SEED) would be in the blue part above it.
Excellent observation, monster. After you said this, I went hunting for a scene with Justice's nuclear reactor, as I had an image floating somewhere in my memory I couldn't identify. I thought it was Freedom's reactor, but it turns out it was Justice. The suits are sister units and seem to share a common frame. I found the episode and did a couple screengrabs.

First shot of Justice's nuclear reactor

Second shot of Justice's nuclear reactor

This was from SEED episode 36 HD Remaster. Apologies for the subtitles as I couldn't find a raw.

Anyway, it looks like it's crammed into the left side of the middle of the torso. Based on where Impulse's sword went in, it could very well have struck the reactor, but it doesn't look like it would have hit it directly. Maybe it damaged it, though, which is why Kira had to do an emergency shutdown before it went prompt critical and melted down into an incomprehensible mess of radioactive disaster.

Also, a meltdown in the sea would have caused a pretty sizable steam explosion. Yet more reasons for Kira to shut the thing down.

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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by monster » Sun May 01, 2016 1:19 pm

Product9 wrote:First shot of Justice's nuclear reactor

Second shot of Justice's nuclear reactor

Anyway, it looks like it's crammed into the left side of the middle of the torso. Based on where Impulse's sword went in, it could very well have struck the reactor, but it doesn't look like it would have hit it directly. Maybe it damaged it, though, which is why Kira had to do an emergency shutdown before it went prompt critical and melted down into an incomprehensible mess of radioactive disaster.
The left side? It looks right in the center to me.

Anyway, as can be seen in the images, there are cables that go down from the reactor. So even when the reactor itself is not hit or even damaged, it's probably still a good idea to have a cutoff (or cut off, the actual words used onscreen) when the place right below it (as I think that is where the Freedom was impaled) or rather anywhere next to it is damaged.

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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by Erisie » Sun May 01, 2016 2:42 pm

Product9 wrote:The amount of gamma ray photons released by annhilating with air is not enough to destroy the Minerva, and the instant after the shot is made all the air in the vicinity is gone. Again, if you watch the animation closely, you can see this happening. The small explosions happen, and then they are gone once the air is gone, leaving the beam to travel unimpeded.
The problem with that explanation is that it is not how antimatter works. Annihilation would happen immediately after the antimatter leaves its container. It wouldn't be able to travel enough to create a beam before encountering the first atmosphere molecules immediately in front of the Minerva.
Product9 wrote:Apart from the original Strike Gundam, I don't recall any mobile suits being hit by a positron cannon and surviving (and Strike didn't survive either, just managed to hold off the blast with its anti-beam shield, a feat that was akin to a miracle. Only Mwu La Fraga could pull off such a stunt). Unless I'm forgetting something, so if you could clarify that I would appreciate it.
Mwu, Kira and Shinn were in the middle of point-blank hits. All three pilots survived. Strike was only shattered in large pieces by the explosion. Freedom was also more or less intact (its damage was more or less from the fight with the Impulse).
Product9 wrote:As for Impulse, it survived because it has phase shift armor (and it was pretty far away from the center of the blast)
From what I can see in the episode, both MS were close enough to the center of the explosion to have been obliterated by it.
Product9 wrote:I know of that, but it's not relevant to the discussion (and not what I consider a practical weapon. I mean, it's not like we see it being used).
It's not used because of the enormous technical and financial challenges involved. That's not the same as practicality (whether something can be done or not with current technology). For another example of practicality, look at Orion: massive spacecraft powered by streams of nuclear explosions. That technology was practical three decades ago, but the massive costs involved (and ecological damage) would shut any project prematurely, even today.
Product9 wrote:No, it wasn't sarcasm. What other reason could there be to turn the reactor off? Unless he saw Cagalli coming and didn't want to irradiate his sister.
Kira knew he was done, so as a last gesture of good will he shut off the reactor so it wouldn't melt down. That's about the most plausible explanation I can think of. Given that he didn't know he would be rescued, does this not make sense?
It is also possible that he was thinking of his own survival. Or that he was preventing a scenario like the one I'm presenting below. Speaking personally, and balancing his actions, I don't see Kira as this "noble good kid that is always doing good", especially in Destiny.
Product9 wrote:I'm more of the mind that Justice had within it a nuclear bomb as it's self-destruction device. It's pure conjecture, but makes sense, especially since we see other, non-nuclear, mobile suits self-destruct with spectacular results. If Aegis didn't have a bomb inside of it, you tell me how it blew up so dramatically.
It is my understanding that the reactors onboard CE's mobile suits are fusion, not fission. Thermonuclear reactors operate by keeping the heat of the reaction contained with extremely powerful magnets. It is technically possible turn the temperatures high enough inside the reactor to jury-rig a pure fusion weapon.

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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by toysdream » Sun May 01, 2016 3:06 pm

Erisie wrote:It is my understanding that the reactors onboard CE's mobile suits are fusion, not fission. Thermonuclear reactors operate by keeping the heat of the reaction contained with extremely powerful magnets. It is technically possible turn the temperatures high enough inside the reactor to jury-rig a pure fusion weapon.
Nope, they're fission reactors. According to the science articles they posted on the Japanese website way back when, the CE universe does have a form of laser-ignited fusion technology - this is how the Archangel's engines generate thrust - but they haven't been able to get fusion working as a sustainable power source, with or without N-Jammer interference. (Since N-Jammers only block fission, they wouldn't affect fusion reactions anyway.)

The N-Jammer Canceler enables the use of nuclear fission as a mobile suit power source. This is what the Freedom, Justice, et al all run on. It occurs to me that the easiest way to prevent their reactors from exploding would be to disengage the N-Jammer Canceler, at which point the usual N-Jammer interference should suppress the fission reactions.


On another note, while I was re-reading stuff about particle beam weapons, I noted some discussions of using lasers to create plasma. Essentially, when you shoot a laser through the air, it ionizes the air molecules and creates a "plasma channel" that you can then shoot electricity through, like an artificial lightning strike.

Since you can use laser beams to generate plasma, this raises the possibility that the "anti-ship laser swords" used in Gundam Seed may not actually use the laser beam to do the actual cutting; instead, they could use the laser beam to generate plasma along the blade edge. This would explain why they're animated the same way as regular beam sabers.

-- Mark

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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by toysdream » Sun May 01, 2016 4:35 pm

Also too! Since people were talking about the Strike Rouge kit manual (without specifying which kit in particular), I just took a look at the Perfect Grade series kit manuals. The PG Strike Rouge manual reiterates the usual explanation about how its beam sabers use the same magnetic field fixation technology developed for use with Mirage Colloid, but then goes on to add that beam sabers can't be used for traditional sword-against-sword blocking because the blades tend to "slip through" (すり抜ける). That's why CE mobile suits use anti-beam shields for blocking instead.

That was intriguing but vague. Is the manual saying that the saber blades literally pass through each other?

The PG Astray Red Frame kit manual is a bit more helpful. It specifically explains that beam sabers can't be used for locking swords using the hilt guard (鍔追り合い), which is a standard sword-fighting technique in which the guard prevents the blade you're blocking from sliding over and cutting off all your fingers. :-)

-- Mark

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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by domino » Sun May 01, 2016 5:12 pm

So is the confusion over the use of the term "slip through"?

If we depend on your understanding of the PG Astray Red Frame kit then it's not referring to the sabers literally passing through each other! It's indicating that rather than the beam sabers "locking" with each other when they clash, they sometimes just glance each other which would change the trajectory of the beam saber swing but not necessarily deflect it from causing any damage to the defending mobile suit. That is probably a reference to the magnetic fields sometimes not having opposite charges hence not repelling but also not attracting each other hence they glance/bounce off of each other.

Perhaps whether or not the beam sabers repel, attract or simply glance each other depends on the strength of the beam saber as well as the relative field strengths of each.

This does explain why an anti-beam shield would be a better defence since it'd effectively repel the beam saber (until the coating wears down)

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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by Erisie » Sun May 01, 2016 5:24 pm

toysdream wrote:The PG Astray Red Frame kit manual is a bit more helpful. It specifically explains that beam sabers can't be used for locking swords using the hilt guard (鍔追り合い), which is a standard sword-fighting technique in which the guard prevents the blade you're blocking from sliding over and cutting off all your fingers. :-)

-- Mark
The thing is that beam sabers do not have hilt guards, so this specific blocking technique wouldn't apply in this case. The Gerbera Straight (being a physical blade) does, however. Also, if Lowe has his humongous katana, why did he keep the beam sabers?

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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by toysdream » Sun May 01, 2016 5:36 pm

Here's the specific explanation from the PG Strike Rouge kit manual:
As beam sabers were widely adopted by the mobile suits of both the Earth Alliance and ZAFT forces, a new problem emerged. Although they were originally developed to allow for many moves in which sword defended against sword, with beam saber against beam saber this was not possible, and they ended up slipping past each other.
-- Mark

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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by Product9 » Sun May 01, 2016 5:52 pm

monster wrote:The left side? It looks right in the center to me.
It looks like the left side to me. Those armor plates are the midsection pieces, and you can vaguely make out the front armor on the left side of the screen in the second shot.
Erisie wrote:The problem with that explanation is that it is not how antimatter works. Annihilation would happen immediately after the antimatter leaves its container. It wouldn't be able to travel enough to create a beam before encountering the first atmosphere molecules immediately in front of the Minerva.
I don't want to get too much into conjecture, but given the kind of technology (beam sabers), would it not be possible to isolate a pocket of vacuum at the front of the barrel?

Anyway, it's immaterial. You're talking like all of the positrons would react with the air at once. It would be proportional to the number of electrons in the air molecules, so only a few annihilations would occur before the air was all destroyed or pushed out of the way, which isn't all that much energy release (I don't have math to back this up). Now, firing the Tannhauser underwater would be suicide, as water is much denser, is not compressible, and all that energy would not only release a ton of gamma ray photons (way more electrons per volume in water), but also heat, resulting in a steam explosion.
Erisie wrote:From what I can see in the episode, both MS were close enough to the center of the explosion to have been obliterated by it.
That's not the same as 'point blank'. The MS weren't near the center of the blast, so they probably didn't experience any gamma rays. The resultant explosion was most likely caused by the energy release from the annhilations, which superheated the air and water resulting in rapid expansion. Destructive? Absolutely. But, given the suits were equipped with phase shift, I don't think it's all that hard to believe they survived.
Erisie wrote:For another example of practicality...
I think you are confusing 'possible' with 'practical'. Cost has to factor in to make something practical.
Erisie wrote:It is also possible that he was thinking of his own survival. Or that he was preventing a scenario like the one I'm presenting below. Speaking personally, and balancing his actions, I don't see Kira as this "noble good kid that is always doing good", especially in Destiny.
Of course it's possible he was thinking of his own survival. When the fight turned, he tried to kill Shinn because that was the only option he had. I'm not saying Kira is some saint, I'm saying he is a nice guy who cares about others. Given that he was already resigned to death, especially considering he probably thought the Archangel had been destroyed, it makes sense that he might use his last ounce of strength to do one last act of good will. I would, or at least I like to think I would.
Erisie wrote:It is my understanding that the reactors onboard CE's mobile suits are fusion, not fission. Thermonuclear reactors operate by keeping the heat of the reaction contained with extremely powerful magnets. It is technically possible turn the temperatures high enough inside the reactor to jury-rig a pure fusion weapon.
Negatory, they are fission. Hence the neutron jammers. Fission works by hitting fissile material with neutrons, which creates 'fissions'. More neutrons are released in the process, which makes the reaction sustain itself. Unregulated, it can quickly go out of control (prompt critical), which results in a meltdown, which is why they use materials that block or absorb neutrons to control the reaction (control rods). These kind of reactors can never be used as a bomb.

Fusion reactors are a UC thing, and I hate to break it to you, but fusion explosions aren't possible in the way UC Gundam makes them out to be. An impressive explosion? Sure, but not one on a nuclear scale. It would be more fireworks than destruction.

Of course, UC Gundam also relies heavily on rainbow unicorn magic, so I guess the incorrect depiction of fusion is the least of their problems.
toysdream wrote:It occurs to me that the easiest way to prevent their reactors from exploding would be to disengage the N-Jammer Canceler, at which point the usual N-Jammer interference should suppress the fission reactions.
You are correct up to this point. Fission reactors cannot explode, at least not in the way a nuclear bomb does. A bomb is specifically engineered to have a ton of fissions happen all at once. This is usually done by some form of explosively induced implosion. The fissions that happen in reactors are far too slow to result in that kind of reaction, which is why they melt instead. As for explosions, the worst you could expect is something like Chernobyl, SL-1, or Fukushima. There were explosions, but they were caused by either a steam explosion, water hammer effect, or a build up of hydrogen, respectively.

Also, thanks for the info on Archangel. Any idea what powers it? I've always kind of wondered. Maybe some guy is shoveling coal - the real most important character in Gundam SEED.
toysdream wrote:On another note, while I was re-reading stuff about particle beam weapons, I noted some discussions of using lasers to create plasma. Essentially, when you shoot a laser through the air, it ionizes the air molecules and creates a "plasma channel" that you can then shoot electricity through, like an artificial lightning strike.

Since you can use laser beams to generate plasma, this raises the possibility that the "anti-ship laser swords" used in Gundam Seed may not actually use the laser beam to do the actual cutting; instead, they could use the laser beam to generate plasma along the blade edge. This would explain why they're animated the same way as regular beam sabers.
What you are talking about is an Electrolaser

It's an electric shock weapon, so it would make for a good taser, but not an effective weapon for the same reason lightning isn't an effective weapon. Aircraft are hit by lightning all the time, and usually the worst damage is some burn marks where the lightning entered and left. And they only get hit because they get in the way of a strike - normally, if something isn't grounded you wouldn't be able to hit it with an electric shock. That's called an open circuit. Of course, positive lightning strikes are pretty scary, but I think a railgun is much, much scarier.

Also, that wouldn't work in a vacuum. No air to ionize to create the channel.
toysdream wrote:Also too! Since people were talking about the Strike Rouge kit manual (without specifying which kit in particular), I just took a look at the Perfect Grade series kit manuals. The PG Strike Rouge manual reiterates the usual explanation about how its beam sabers use the same magnetic field fixation technology developed for use with Mirage Colloid, but then goes on to add that beam sabers can't be used for traditional sword-against-sword blocking because the blades tend to "slip through" (すり抜ける). That's why CE mobile suits use anti-beam shields for blocking instead.

That was intriguing but vague. Is the manual saying that the saber blades literally pass through each other?

The PG Astray Red Frame kit manual is a bit more helpful. It specifically explains that beam sabers can't be used for locking swords using the hilt guard (鍔追り合い), which is a standard sword-fighting technique in which the guard prevents the blade you're blocking from sliding over and cutting off all your fingers. :-)
Thank you for providing some insight into all this.

I would think it's pretty obvious a hand guard wouldn't work on a beam saber, though. Slip through could easily be interpreted as that as well, as beam sabers are just tubes with a beam coming out. If you tried to lock with another saber, it would be very easy for the blade to slide downward and lop off something important. Like it was said before, using a shield instead might just be safer.

However, we still have multiple examples of sabers blocking one another, and at least one of sabers locked in a duel. These are from the HD Remaster, so the 'editing out' of the scenes doesn't apply.
domino wrote:If we depend on your understanding of the PG Astray Red Frame kit then it's not referring to the sabers literally passing through each other! It's indicating that rather than the beam sabers "locking" with each other when they clash, they sometimes just glance each other which would change the trajectory of the beam saber swing but not necessarily deflect it from causing any damage to the defending mobile suit. That is probably a reference to the magnetic fields sometimes not having opposite charges hence not repelling but also not attracting each other hence they glance/bounce off of each other.

Perhaps whether or not the beam sabers repel, attract or simply glance each other depends on the strength of the beam saber as well as the relative field strengths of each.

This does explain why an anti-beam shield would be a better defence since it'd effectively repel the beam saber (until the coating wears down)
Yeah, exactly this. Also, didn't Gato's overcharged saber break through Uraki's saber in 0083?

domino
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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by domino » Sun May 01, 2016 6:03 pm

Yes but UC is different where the beam sabers are held in place using I-fields IIRC so the stronger I-field will overcome the other hence what happened with GP02A vs GP01 and Nu vs Sazabi (at least Char was complaining about it)

In CE, I guess we have the model kits openly contradicting the animation. We DO see beam sabers clashing so let's just assume those were due to pilot skills or were indeed unusual moments due to beam sabers depending on magnetic fields.

Makes me wonder why beam sabers continued to be so popular and why someone didn't make tech that would de-power beam sabers (given that they depend on the maintenance of the magnetic field)

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Product9
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Re: What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

Post by Product9 » Sun May 01, 2016 6:11 pm

domino wrote:Yes but UC is different where the beam sabers are held in place using I-fields IIRC so the stronger I-field will overcome the other hence what happened with GP02A vs GP01 and Nu vs Sazabi (at least Char was complaining about it)

In CE, I guess we have the model kits openly contradicting the animation. We DO see beam sabers clashing so let's just assume those were due to pilot skills or were indeed unusual moments due to beam sabers depending on magnetic fields.

Makes me wonder why beam sabers continued to be so popular and why someone didn't make tech that would de-power beam sabers (given that they depend on the maintenance of the magnetic field)
Well, when Duel and Strike locked sabers, it was early in the series. ZAFT didn't have beam sabers (IIRC), and Kira didn't have much experience with them, so it's possible neither pilot understood the risks and just got lucky.

Now, we are assuming the kits are talking about locking sabers, which we don't see much of. We do see them blocking one another, but not necessarily locking together like you see in other Gundam shows a lot.

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